24 is just a TV show – redux

I’ve done a couple of posts about the TV show “24,” and how the right has mistakenly interpreted it as an endorsement of the Bush administration’s least defensible policies. As it turns out, I might have been a little hasty.

Jane Mayer has a fascinating piece in the latest issue of The New Yorker about the politics of “24” and its creator, Joel Surnow, who, I was surprised to learn, describes himself as a “right-wing nut job.” For reasons I’ve already described, some of the arguments conservatives find support for are misplaced, but in at least one key area, “24” is, rather intentionally, making an argument sympathetic to Bush and his backers. The issue, of course, is torture.

The grossly graphic torture scenes in Fox’s highly rated series “24” are encouraging abuses in Iraq, a brigadier general and three top military and FBI interrogators claim.

The four flew to Los Angeles in November to meet with the staff of the show. They said it is hurting efforts to train recruits in effective interrogation techniques and is damaging the image of the U.S. around the world, according The New Yorker.

“I’d like them to stop,” Army Brig. Gen. Patrick Finnegan, dean of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, told the magazine.

Finnegan and others told the show’s creative team that the torture depicted in “24” never works in real life, and by airing such scenes, they’re encouraging military personnel to act illegally.

“People watch the shows, and then walk into the interrogation booths and do the same things they’ve just seen,” said Tony Lagouranis, who was a U.S. Army interrogator in Iraq and attended the meeting. “The kids see it, and say, ‘If torture is wrong, what about ’24’?” Finnegan said.

In fact, Mayer relays an anecdote from Gary Solis, a retired law professor who designed and taught the Law of War for Commanders curriculum at West Point, who tried to explain to his students that Jack Bauer would be prosecuted for his conduct. The class was not persuaded. After one particularly aggressive interrogation scene, Solis said, “I tried to impress on them that this technique would open the wrong doors, but it was like trying to stomp out an anthill.”

As for Joel Surnow’s politics, the show creator apparently was persuaded by a few names that will be familiar to you.

Surnow’s rightward turn was encouraged by one of his best friends, Cyrus Nowrasteh, a hard-core conservative who, in 2006, wrote and produced “The Path to 9/11,” a controversial ABC miniseries that presented President Clinton as having largely ignored the threat posed by Al Qaeda. (The show was denounced as defamatory by Democrats and by members of the 9/11 Commission; their complaints led ABC to call the program a “dramatization,” not a “documentary.”) Surnow and Nowrasteh met in 1985, when they worked together on “The Equalizer.” Nowrasteh, the son of a deposed adviser to the Shah of Iran, grew up in Madison, Wisconsin, where, like Surnow, he was alienated by the radicalism around him. He told me that he and Surnow, in addition to sharing an admiration for Reagan, found “L.A. a stultifying, stifling place because everyone thinks alike.” Nowrasteh said that he and Surnow regard “24” as a kind of wish fulfillment for America. “Every American wishes we had someone out there quietly taking care of business,” he said. “It’s a deep, dark ugly world out there. Maybe this is what Ollie North was trying to do. It would be nice to have a secret government that can get the answers and take care of business — even kill people. Jack Bauer fulfills that fantasy.”

In recent years, Surnow and Nowrasteh have participated in the Liberty Film Festival, a group dedicated to promoting conservatism through mass entertainment. Surnow told me that he would like to counter the prevailing image of Senator Joseph McCarthy as a demagogue and a liar. Surnow and his friend Ann Coulter — the conservative pundit, and author of the pro-McCarthy book “Treason” — talked about creating a conservative response to George Clooney’s recent film “Good Night, and Good Luck.” Surnow said, “I thought it would really provoke people to do a movie that depicted Joe McCarthy as an American hero or, maybe, someone with a good cause who maybe went too far.” He likened the Communist sympathizers of the nineteen-fifties to terrorists: “The State Department in the fifties was infiltrated by people who were like Al Qaeda.” But, he said, he shelved the project. “The blacklist is Hollywood’s orthodoxy,” he said. “It’s not a movie I could get done now.”

A year and a half ago, Surnow and Manny Coto, a “24” writer with similar political views, talked about starting a conservative television network. “There’s a gay network, a black network — there should be a conservative network,” Surnow told me. But as he and Coto explored the idea they realized that “we weren’t distribution guys — we were content guys.”

They needn’t worry; there’s already Fox News.

Anyway, read the whole article. Whether you’ve seen the show or not, Surnow is, unfortunately, having an impact. It’s not helping.

I’ve never minded the show; it’s a semi-interesting romp for me. However, normalizing the ticking time-bomb scenario for torture and vastly overstating its effectiveness is a continued corrosive influence over the last 5-6 years. I keep forgetting about the boundless stupidity of the general public, which should have been driven home by the box office receipts for Norbit and Epic Movie.

  • Between this, “Axis of Stupidity,” and the Humvee Armor articles, the Carpetbagger’s making me physically ill today. Hopefully going to see Sen. Obama tonight will wash some of that away. (And yes, I am bragging.)

  • So the creative team just blew off the experienced professionals who really know what they’re talking about? Sure sounds like the Bush administration in a nutshell, doesn’t it?

    Hey, wouldn’t “nutshell” be a great replacement for the “bubble” that Bush and the rest of his co-conspirators live in? I like the sound of that.

  • Well, it makes sense. So far this season Jack has killed his partner, befriended a terrorist, and tortured his brother, an American.

    The bad guys have included Jack’s father and brother who are defense contractors and the secretary of Defense.

    The good guys include an ACLU lawyer and a liberal black President.

    Also, CTU failed to prevent a nuclear disaster on American soil.

    I guess Surnow is just helping to set the bar low.

  • Never Fear ~ 24 has jumped the shark . . .

    I’ve been avidly watching for several years but this year the shark is back in the wake somewhere. The show has gone from suspense to over-the-top blind repetition.

    Even Jack Bauer only uses coercion to get immediate information for immediate response. He doesn’t fly people to Norway for long term interrogation and psychological deconstruction.

  • Surnow: “It would be nice to have a secret government…”

    We don’t?

    Don’t tell Dick Cheney!

  • Well Cleaver definitely nailed Surnow when he called him some select Cleaverisms. The LA Times and Salon both did stories about the group of ex-interrogators who came to meet with the 24 show staff, but the Times never mentioned Surnow and how he blew off the visitors and made his wingnut views known. Salon went into it in detail.

    Surnow claims, in typcial wingnut fashion, that whereas he simply disagrees with other peoples’ viewpoints, THEY all think he is evil. Well that’s because so many of the wingnut viewpoints involve killing people, denying people their rights and redistributing the wealth upwards away from poor people. Pretty much evil.

  • I would like to say that Kiefer Sutherland has agreed to help show the soldiers and students that 24 is strictly fantasy and that torture doesn’t work.

    One thing about the ticking bomb scenario is that the torturee knows he only has to last a short amount of time. With the suicide warrior ethic, death threats aren’t going to make them talk.

  • ‘Hasty’ ? To make the assumption that those responsible for ’24’ are so oblivious to the realities of the world as to not know what their show promotes, while creating a show so in tune with the realities of the world, is the height of naivete. It is taking the presumption of innocence to an absurd level.

    In any case, the efficacy of propaganda is not dependent on intent.

  • Experts tell him that torture is counter-productive, but he knows better. This guy is Vice Presidential material.

  • I was speaking yesterday with several TV producers who had done shows on UFO believers and a central characteristic they found with those who are ardent believers in UFOs is they are very susceptible people who will be easily led astray by outside influences. They also have a strong tendency to have a history of being traumatized (remember, “a conservative is a liberal who’s been mugged”) and tend to have a history of strong religious convictions.

    I bring this up because most non-neocons who watch “24” say it’s just a show. Then there are more pathologic types for whom the TV shows creates a system of beliefs and an alternate reality. It adds up for me that by getting ardently religious folks in your base, you get peope who tend to be easily swayed by what they see and are told, rather than folks who are critical thinkers. Dems should not underestimate the power of communications and it’s effect on those who are easily influenced.

  • Guns in cockpits will make us safer, the death penalty deters crime, of course torture gets people to talk…

    Some forms of stupid are hard to dispell.

    I think it is a matter of projection from a certain type of person. I’m sure that Dick Cheney looks in his flabby, wheezing, heart and thinks, ‘shit, put a broom stick up my butt and I’d rattle off the names of my energy task force in a heart beat…’

    But, since he pictures himself as both brilliant and manly, he cannot grasp that A) his own personality makes it incredibly unlikely that he would ever be a front line soldier entrusted with worthwhile intel and B) interogators often don’t know enough to ask the right questions to begin with. So, sure, 30 minutes in Gitmo could turn up more sordid details about the Veep’s disgusting antics than normal people could probably stomach. But, without already knowing what questions to ask you could just as easily spend thirty minutes getting him to admit that he was Hitler’s personal fluffer and Scalia’s back door be-atch.

    This sort of follows the same indifference to wanton domestic spying. Some vague assumption that folks already ‘know’ whot he bad people are and what they are up to, so we are just bending a few rules to get to the inevitable faster…

    The core problem is our nature. We tend to remember when our instincts are right and forget when our instincts are spectacularly wrong. Then take this distorted view of our own ‘gut meter’ and project it on larger societal mechanisms.

    -jjf

  • . “Every American wishes we had someone out there quietly taking care of business,” he said.

    And that’s why we have Batman, dammit. More tax breaks for millionaires so Bruce Wayne can continue making America safe!

  • From James Wolcott’s blog”

    Of the show, Joel Surnow says, “Our only politics are that terrorists are bad.” But Mayer points out that “many prominent conservatives speak of 24 as if it were real.” A friend of Surnow’s joked that the conservative writers at 24 have become “like a Hollywood television annex to the White House. It’s like an auxiliary wing.” (Surnow and several others from the show even attended a private luncheon at the White House.) How tragic for TV audiences that, just like that White House crowd, here’s another right-winger who won’t let the facts get in the way of his ideology. There’s only one recourse: stop watching 24.

    What they said.

  • Having ordered a book on the French war in Algeria (“The Savage War of Peace”), Amazon alerted me to a new book by a guy named Ted Morgan who has written “My Battle of Algiers.”

    Morgan was the son of a French father and American mother, and was conscripted to go to Algeria in the French army. From the review, Morgan is quoted as claiming that, in Algeria, torture did, in fact, work. And that it was key to the French winning the Battle of Algiers. (Morgan claims that he himself beat an FLN prisoner to death.)

    Apparently he goes on to say that French torture was systematic, and not the aimless humiliation of Abu Grahib. And he doesn’t agree with it.

    Regardless, France was outraged over French army torture, which led ultimately to withdrawal and Algerian independence.

    I don’t mention this as an endorsement of torture, but as a curious counterpoint to the repeated claim that torture doesn’t work. Regardless, I’m entirely against it for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it subverts the torturer.

    Something most people don’t understand about Nazi death camps is that poison gas, etc. were employed less for efficient killing than because the most brutal Nazi, Ukrainian, or Lithuanian finally went nuts after shooting hundreds of innocent people. They gave out of shooters.

  • I don’t care what anyone says, even the creator of the work: 24 is not right-wing propaganda, especially this season. I bet the majority of you criticizing the show haven’t even watched it. Take tonight’s episode, which portrays torture in an extremely negative light, or the fact that the President is demanding that civil liberties be upheld. Surnow is not the only writer involved in the show. Have any of you even heard of Seven Days in May? I’ve said it before here, and I’ll say it again: 24, like so much Cold War fiction, takes society’s fears and enlarges them for the purposes of drama.
    You know, it’s funny: I didn’t see any of these complaints (I’m not attacking you CB, you’re just bringing the issue to light) when last season the Republican president on 24 was declared evil for trying to start a war for oil. But of course, some of us like to pick and choose when we make our oh so grandiose demands for a boycott, aren’t we?

  • I heard a discussion about shows shows like 24, and movies like the Die Hard Series, are actually promoting fascism.

    The lone white male, seeking and dispensing vengence greater that the harm done to him, all alone , doing “what it takes” , unlike the stupid police or other, highly trained government force so inept they couldn’t catch a cold. Why pay taxes for that?

    Reality…
    We invaded 2 sovereign countries, killed and tortured thousands(including our own,more than we lost in the original attack), spent a trillion in doing so, and our only result is a botched hanging of a second-rate dictator, whom we put in power in the first place.

    Scotland Yard does a criminal investigation and nabs a dozen or so before they terrorize, and have a good chance at making convictions because they took their time and did the investigation properly, did it legally. And did not involve shooting and killing .

    The conservative movement is defined by it’s hypocrysy and contradictions.
    Remember, they claim to be the party of family values and fiscal responsiblity

  • “24” is just a television show. People should keep this in mind when watching it. While this show may portray some Americans views on politics and other issues, its torture scenes should not be taken seriously because it is just fiction. Military personnel cannot take this as a guide on how to interrogate people. What happens in television shows is not applicable to real life. While the military does deal with interrogation, it cannot apply what they have seen on “24” to their interrogations, even though it appears that some people do. People do not take other televisions shows, like “Desperate Housewives” as a guide to life and they should not take “24” as guide to anything either. The torture scenes, just like the rest of the show, are there to provide entertainment.

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