Campos v. Reynolds — Round 3

As debates go, my favorite of all possible mediums is trading essays. On television, rivals don’t have time to organize their thoughts. In forums, there’s a strict time limit on how long someone can address a topic. But in print, particularly online, people can organize their thoughts, respond carefully to the other side’s claims, and make the best possible argument.

For some, it’s a beneficial format. For those who play fast and loose with the facts, it’s not. Take Instapundit’s Glenn Reynolds, for example.

Nine days ago, Reynolds caused a bit of a stir when he recommended that U.S. assassins infiltrate Iran and kill some of the country’s “mullahs and atomic scientists.” University of Colorado law professor Paul Campos took Reynolds to task for the idea.

Of course Iran is not at war with America, but just as Reynolds spent years repeating Bush administration propaganda about Iraq’s nonexistent weapons of mass destruction, he’s now dutifully repeating the administration’s claims about supposed Iranian government involvement in Iraq’s civil war.

Moreover, even if Iran were at war with the United States, the intentional killing of civilian noncombatants is a war crime, as that term is defined by international treaties America has signed. Furthermore, government-sponsored assassinations of the sort Reynolds is advocating are expressly and unambiguously prohibited by the laws of the United States.

How does a law professor, of all people, justify advocating murder?

Reynolds, none too pleased, went after Campos with a vengeance in a guest newspaper piece, and on his blog, twice. Reynolds’ rather shrill responses led Campos to return to the subject today, in a piece for Glenn Greenwald’s blog.

First, Reynolds argues there are circumstances under which government-sponsored assassination is both legal and morally defensible. Yet whatever merits that general claim might have, it has nothing to do with the legality and mortality of Reynolds’ specific recommendation that the United States government should be “quietly” assassinating Iranian mullahs and atomic scientists, today if not sooner. Obviously there is a world of difference between speculating on whether it would have made sense to assassinate, say, Saddam Hussein, or the Iranian head of state (presumably at some time when we weren’t funneling arms to them), and advocating the assassination of civilian research scientists.

As for Reynolds’ claim that killing scientists wouldn’t be murder because it’s only against the law until the law is changed, what can one say? Lawyers’ claims to find a statement shocking often sound a lot like Capt. Renault claiming to be shocked to discover there’s gambling in Casablanca, but I’m not saying this rhetorically: It’s shocking that a professor of law would dare make such a despicable argument in print. In fact assassinations are currently prohibited by law — something Reynolds cannot of course dispute — and the law would have to be changed before what Reynolds says our government should be doing at the present moment could even arguably begin to be considered legal.

Sensing, perhaps, that he’s saying something too ridiculous for his audience to swallow, Reynolds starts arguing in the alternative, by claiming that assassinating research scientists isn’t really assassination. His basis for this is the argument that when research scientists are present at legitimate military targets, their deaths from lawful military attacks on those targets aren’t assassinations. But this is about as relevant to his original argument as the claim that scientists who die from lung cancer because they smoked a lot haven’t been assassinated. Remember, Reynolds argued originally that we should be “quietly” terminating research scientists with extreme prejudice, and that this was preferable to, for example, bombing Iranian military installations. Yet the examples he gives of the legitimate killing of scientists all require precisely the course of action he claims his assassination scheme is designed to prevent.

I don’t doubt that Reynolds, unwilling to quit while he’s behind, will find it necessary to lash out at Campos again, calling him names, and justifying legally dubious assassinations by pointing to nothing in particular. But in the meantime, it’s nice to see such a thorough and complete takedown.

See, aren’t written debates fun?

But in the meantime, it’s nice to see such a thorough and complete takedown.

Indeed it is. Excellent work there Professor Campos.

  • “because it’s only against the law until the law is changed, ” has to go into the Wingnut Lexicon with ” a victory that hasn’t happened yet” or such.

  • He obviously expects the law to be changed in response to an assassination program, once implemented, that will then just have to be legalized after the fact, as with the warrantless surveillance program. Who’s to say he wrong?

  • Can’t our dear leader just retractively add a signing statement to any international laws that prohib^h^h^h^h^h^h interfere with our sovereign
    right to preemptively defend ourselves against hypothetical mushroom
    clouds?

  • Isn’t it amazing, but thoroughly unsurprising, that the right wing nuts go abloslutely ballistic and become almost (and, at time, even completely) incoherent when their stupid rantings are taken down by someone who is both highly steeped in the academic field but also well versed in the arts of debate and traditional rhetoric. This phenomenon is repeated over and over in the liberal blogosphere; the wingnuts keep getting their asses kicked by the reality-based experts, but they seem to be too stupid to stop digging their rhetorical graves. Dumb asses.

    As a side note, can anyone tell me why NPR’s Talk of the Nation program today had Jonah freaking Goldberg on the show, along with two university professors (including one from the University of Michigan), to discuss the economics of dealing with global warming and the next steps to follow-up on the Kyoto Protocol? How in any logical universe is Jonah freaking Goldberg even minimally qualified to discuss these issues – other than as a shill for the wingnuts?? Honestly, it seems that whoever is out there pushing the speakers for the RightWingNoiseMachine does a much better job than does the progressive movement.

    [Me, slowing shaking my head from side to side in amazement]

    The good news is that the two professors absolutely ripped Jonah freaking Goldberg to shreds, as did many of the callers (including an archeaology doctoral candidate). Of course, displaying his “I’m in a hole but I’m going to keep on digging” stupidity, Jonah freaking Goldberg kept on lecturing like the fool he is, completely unaware that he was bleeding from all of the severe and fatal cuts delivered to him by the real experts.

    In conclusion, it seems that even NPR has been intimidated to the point that it no longer even pretends to be objective anymore (just like the rest of the CCCP – the Compliant Complicit Corporate Press). Just sad…

  • It’s shocking that a professor of law would dare make such a despicable argument in print.

    Glenn Reynolds being a professor of law at a major Southern law school proves where “Southern justice” comes from.

  • One can only wonder what ‘the Professor” would do, if someone were to make a case against Reynolds, based on the logic of Reynolds. If “pre-emptive assassination” is permissable against others—based on a theoretical presumption of future events—then how might one deal with the theoretical presumption that Reynolds, by advocating the commission of war crimes—becomes a “future war criminal?” Would this, then, not justify the “pre-emptive assassination” of Professor Reynolds?

    Inquiring minds want to know….

  • Does the NRCC have an office in New York state?
    Perhaps someone could persuade Gov. Spitzer to freeze all assets found in his state, according to the “War on Terra” rules.
    Would that attract the MSM’s attention?
    Gov. Richardson? Care to make a splash for your campaign?

  • Online written debates truly are the best. The truth becomes apparent, despite any BS spewn by anyone involved in the debate.

    The only thing the wingnuts can do is to keep spewing, and hope that they can fool some people into thinking that they’re not full of crap. This is not easy when you have a brain the size of a walnut.

  • Marvin: “My grandparents, 54 cousins, 12 aunts and 3 goats, were gassed in the only stainless steel chamber in the Third Reich — in Stuttgart.”
    Bill: “What do you mean ‘gassed’?”
    Marvin: “They were rounded up in Regensberg and shipped in a cattle car to Stralsund — 4666 miles away. It was in the middle of July and they nearly froze to death.”
    Bill: “But how could anyone travel 4666 miles in Germany and still remain in the country?”
    Marvin: “They doubled back many times to make sure they weren’t being followed.”
    Bill: “In July — they nearly froze to death?”
    Marvin: “Ja. They were secretly working on an extermination project using liquid nitrogen and some of it escaped into the cattle cars. They were going to deep freeze jews and then toss them off the mountains in Switzerland so that when they hit bottom they’d shatter into at least 666 pieces — thus destroying the evidence.”
    Bill: “On what authority can you say this?”
    Marvin: “My second mistress swore to it on a stack of Talmuds and we executed two Generals who looked like they knew what nitrogen was.The Generals must have been guilty of something and both Nazi and nitrogen are n-words.”
    Bill: “OK, but you mentioned the gas chambers at Stuttgart.”
    Marvin: ” From Stralsund, they crammed us into a Fokker triplane and there we flew to Schweinfurt.”
    Bill: “It’s hard for me to believe that — how many of you were there? — more than 3 people could not be packed into a Fokker triplane.”
    Marvin: “There were a lot of us, many hundreds and besides, this was specially designed for their extermination program.”
    Bill: “I have a hard time believing all of this.”
    Marvin: “Just as I thought! You’re an anti-Semite!”
    Bill: “No, I am just trying to be logical about all of this.”
    Marvin: “Now you admit that you’re a Nazi!”
    Bill: “Put that aside and continue with your story.”
    Marvin: “After leaving the Greyhound bus in Koblenz, we were forced to march 1666 miles to Stuttgart by way of Wittenberg — through mile after mile of decaying bodies — blood, feet, feces, menstrual blood, vomit — it was terrible — all those victims.”
    Bill: “All right — you are now a Stuttgart — the supposed home of the stainless steel gas chambers. I’d like to mention that there is no record of any such facility as you describe.”
    Marvin: “Can you prove that lie? Where are the documents?”
    Bill: “Documents are used to verify the existence of things, not their nonexistence.”
    Marvin: “The Nazis were clever. They destroyed all of the evidence, but you — you’re a Nazi. In fact, I do not think your name is Bill. It’s probably Heinrich.”
    Bill: “My given name, William, is on my birth certificate.”
    Marvin: “That’s a ruse. Show me such a certificate.”
    —– Bill furnishes the document. —–
    Marvin: “It’s obviously a forgery. You Nazis are good at forgery.”
    Bill: “Some of your story doesn’t seem possible considering what we know about natural science.”
    Marvin: “The Nazis were very clever. They found mysterious ways to do the impossible. That’s the power of hate.”
    Bill: “What do you mean by ‘hate’?”
    Marvin: “Why do you hate jews?”
    Bill: “I never said that — and I don’t.”
    Marvin: ” Why do you lie all of the time?”
    —– The “debate” continued on into the night when Bill had a brainstorm. He drew a swastika upon the wall. Marvin shrieked in horror and leaped out the window forgetting that they were on the 69th floor. Marvin did not survive. —–
    ——————————————————————————–

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