Taking cultural editing notes from those who hate America — again

I continue to be amazed at the extent to which high-profile conservatives rail against Americans. The latest is Glenn Beck.

“You know, there’s a new poll out that Muslims, the higher educated Muslims in the Middle East are more likely to be extremists? More and more Muslims now hate us all across the world, and it really has not a lot to do with anything other than our morals.

“The things that they were saying about us were true. Our morals are just out the window. We’re a society on the verge of moral collapse. And our promiscuity is off the charts.

“Now I don’t think that we should fly airplanes into buildings or behead people because of it, but that’s the prevailing feeling of Muslims in the Middle East. And you know what? They’re right.”

A few thoughts. First, as Janna Goodrich asks, “If ‘they’ are ‘right’, what would Beck like to see done? The establishment of some form of Taliban rules against vice in this country? Because according to his arguments that would protect us from Islamic terrorists.” I’m fairly certain Beck hasn’t thought this through — he simply reflexively hates Americans’ morals — but it’d be helpful if he could explain how he’d like to reverse our “moral collapse.”

Second, it’s entirely convenient for Beck to blame our values for our unpopularity in the Muslim world, since it absolves the country of responsibility for its conduct. As Kevin Drum explained, Beck’s argument “perpetuates the trope that ‘they hate us for our freedoms.’ And if they hate us for our freedoms, guess what? It means they don’t hate us for our actions. And that means there’s no need for us to change anything we’re actually doing in the Middle East.”

And third, Beck, for all of his alleged patriotism, sounds an awful lot like American-hater Dinesh D’Souza.

D’Souza, you’ll recall, is the conservative activist/writer who argues that terrorists are right about the problems with the culture in the United States. Osama bin Laden and other dangerous Islamic radicals believe the U.S. is too secular, too permissive, too diverse, too free, and too tolerant … and D’Souza believes they’re absolutely correct. Indeed, D’Souza goes so far as to argue that liberal Americans are literally to blame for 9/11 — the left invited the attacks by reinforcing the beliefs al Qaeda had about the United States.

D’Souza even acknowledged to Stephen Colbert that he agreed “with some of the things these radical extremists are against in America.” Consider this gem from D’Souza’s book:

[I]f the political left and the Islamic fundamentalists are in the same foreign policy camp [because they both hate American imperialism], then by the same token the political right and the Islamic fundamentalists are on the same wavelength on social issues. The left is allied with some radical Muslims in opposition to American foreign policy, and the right is allied with an even larger group of Muslims [which includes radical Muslims] in their opposition to American social and cultural depravity. This is the essential new framework I propose for understanding American foreign policy and American social issues.

And now Glenn Beck is right there with him. To hear Beck explain it, Americans are awful. We are immoral. We deserve to be reviled. Those nasty things said about us in the Middle East are all true.

And somehow, we’re told that the left isn’t patriotic enough? Someone really ought to remind conservatives like Beck that you can’t love America if you hate Americans.

and it really has not a lot to do with anything other than our morals.

Of course any geo-political/military reasons such as what we’ve done to Iraq since 1991, our taking up “permanent” military position in the Persian Gulf, our construction of military bases throughout the Middle East, our unswerving support of Israel, and our deliberate war-mongering toward Syria and Iran have absolutely nothing to do with it

  • Perhaps the pompous M. Night had it right in the crappy movie the Village. Perhaps if they don’t want to live in a Liberal world then they can find some place that we’ll call it Assholistan, where all cultures take their demented idiots like Glenn and Dumbass D’Souza and put them in the world they desire, where up is down and green is blue, etc (sort of like that stupid Con version of Wikipedia where all the facts are sanitized for librul ideas and horrors, swear words.)

    Problem would be where could we locate it? I’m thinking someplace like Greenland (assuming the Danes would be okay with it.) I thought about Antarctica, but I think they’d go wipe out the Penguins trying to stop evolution and gay penguin couples.

    That way these assholes can sit in their little igloos and write stupid screeds highlighting their ignorance away from most of us who’d rather just get on with our lives. And if they don’t survive (from killing each other, eating yellow snow etc), well, we have the added bonus of providing seals with food.

  • What are we basing this moral lapse on? – the non-stop, wall-to-wall coverage of all things Anna Nicole and Britney?

    Give me a break. Glenn Beck is just another fame-hungry, star wannabe, who is so devoid of original thought that all he can do is stick his nose into the wind to sniff out where the spotlight is and try to elbow his way into it with absurd and insulting opinions. Not because he believes what he’s saying, but because if his ratings go up, he can keep paying the bills.

    If Beck actually cared about America, there are plenty of areas where his focus and his microphone could do some good, but the problem is that the good would accrue to others and not himself.

    What a loser.

  • who died and made that jackass god? i’m tired of these self-righteous dickheads telling me whether my morals are good enough for them or not. as far as i’m concerned, they can just STFU!

  • To call clowns like Beck a simpletons would be an insult to simpletons. Using his criteria, then the most hated country in the world should be the Netherlands, and maybe Switzerland. After all, they are both extremely secular with liberal drug and sex laws. Yet strangely it is the US, a nation with one of the highest rates of religious belief in the western world, if not the highest. Strangely though, I don’t hear Jihadists proclaiming war on either country. Hmmmm…. Must bea vast left wing conspiracy somehow.

  • Glen Beck is “The Church Lady” (thanks, Cana Carvey & SNL) in drag.
    Really, if you can stand to watch this smug creep (I can’t), imagine him sneering “How conviennnnnnient.”
    So what get get into Americans (according to C.L. Beck) that makes fundamentalists hate us? Could it be………
    SATAN?????

  • Weren’t lots of the European terrorists in groups like Bader Meinhof and Red Army Brigade of Italy of the 1970’s children of privilege as well?

  • To paraphrase onging commentary elsewhere, Beck and D’Souza advocate torture and the jailing of citizens without cause, the implicite ethnic cleans`ing of an iconic American city, and, what with depleted uranium and all, the ethnic cleans`ing of an entire country to forward a lie – hell, with Israel the entire region, to forward a lie – and as such have no claim to moral, or intellectual, superiority.

  • There’s something interesting, maybe even profound, buried within this massive pile of manure.

    Radical right-wingers like Beck and D’Shitbag would never admit it, but if I’m reading htis right, they share the same disgust with mainstream culture that many of us on the left do. And from the 24-hour coverage of the slow-motion suicides of blonde idiots to “Wife Swap” and whatever reality travesty Rupert Murdoch’s employees are ginning up even as we speak, it really is pretty disgusting.

    But, of course, it’s not “the left” that pushes this garbage. It’s the corporate world. And it’s not the left, or at the very least not only or primarily the left, that consumes it: that’s the Great Middle, the same people who were apt to vote for Bush in 2004 because they trusted him to keep their suburb of Phoenix free of turr’sts.

    At some point, one of the smarter conservatives is going to realize that they’ve been chasing their tails for these last 30-40 years, and that everything they blame on “the left” is much more attributable to the corporate powers that bankroll their politics. Then the Norquist/Dobson movement will collapse on itself.

    (I hope.)

  • I think there are a few things wrong with this- but I don’t think it’s important to talk about. But maybe I’m wrong about that.

    So here’s the abbreviated version.

    The claim that more educated Muslims are more likely to be extremists strikes me as not good. The problem is that is doesn’t say what they’re educated in. Without that, the claim seems to be a fearful attempt by right wingers to promote their anti-smart people thing: if only no one listened to people who were educated about the things they are talking about, then it would be a lot easier for propaganda promoters to promote lies and for stupid people to follow them, and for nothing useful ever to get done. Stupid Republican rank-and-filers wouldn’t have to feel intimidated by smart people theyve hated since childhood, and instead of listening to us and getting to like and know us and value what we contribute, they can just unthinkingly villainize us and harm us. It seems to me if Muslims were higher educated in philosophy/political science/psychology/anthropology, and the ideas of a broad range of natural sciences, they’d be less extreme, not more extreme. I bet that they’re studying a narrow skill or technical field (like most Westerners now who go to college) and Islamic religion, and that’s it. I think more education like what I suggested would end the conflict with Muslim extremists.

    I agree with a lot of people that morals seem to be getting pushed a little too far sometimes, but I disagree with the particulars (I’m not against gays, abortion, or blacks and whites having relationships, for example) so I wouldn’t correct a lot of things a lot of right wingers think we should correct, maybe. Also, I disagree about who is to blame, and I don’t at all think that we’re on the verge of a moral collapse. I think it has a lot more to do with Hollywood and people of certain backgrounds not understanding people of other backgrounds (the large portion of society of a background that believes in only a minimum amount of sexual morality doesn’t believe that there are still a lot of other people who still believe in a little bit more sexual morality than that, and they’re just wrong) and it doesn’t have as much to do with secularization or permissive laws.

    I think conservatives are too zealous in their pursuit of promoting or requiring these moral values- if it’s really just sexual morality we’re talking about- and consequently I think they have goals that are not at all realistic and do things or approach things in a way that are actually not as likely to promote positive change in sexual morality but rather to prevent it, to anger people, to cause other problems in the lives of other people, to get people to disagree with them, and to make themselves look like fools.

    All should note that these conservatives who say that they’re on the vanguard of the defense of moral values are also on the vanguard of the enthusiastic audience of bawdy TV- Desperate Housewives and tabloid TV shows and the like. They’re titillated by and love the stuff that they say is wicked with the other side of their mouths. They want to be entertained by it and have their own indiscretions, but they just want to punish liberals for it and pretend that we’re different than we really are and we’re all a bunch of whores. The right wingers are hypocrites. Or look at that talk show host Scarborough for example, his show is pretty despicable and filthy actually. Bill O’Reilly, Arnold Schwarzenegger, etc.- these guys are not moral guys, by that measure.

  • I stopped watching this creep after the first five minutes but come on, he’s just an “entertainer” for the Rethugs recycling thier propoganda. So let’s stop worrying about what this idiot says and dismiss him, and all his ilk for what they are, just really, really bad “entertainers”.

    P.S. I now officially do not watch CNN. It’s hard to imagine I used to believe they were once so worthy of my viewing time.

  • I dunno.

    It seems like we’re painting ourselves into a rhetorical corner with the simplistic “can’t ever agree with the terra-ists” thing, and it isn’t a good way to frame the debate. No one is wrong about everything, so taking some notes from “those who hate America” isn’t a big deal. And IMHO putting the line “those who hate America” in a main bullet is somewhat misguided. As we all know, most of “them” don’t hate Americans, they hate what our government has been doing to a lot of their people.

    I would gladly put a bullet in Osama, but there are things I agree with that he has said, particularly with regards to the way we support Israel no matter what they do, and the way we use many of the Arab leaders as tools. And frankly there are moral issues we’re facing today, such as the hyper-sexualization of young girls in our society, that the mainstream muslims are very concerned about (and generally they do not prescribe Sharia law solutions).

    Recently, a report by the American Psychological Association pointed out what should be fairly obvious, namely that our freedom to see almost every square inch of a girl in public is literally destroying many of our children.

    …”We have ample evidence to conclude that sexualization has negative effects in a variety of domains, including cognitive functioning, physical and mental health, and healthy sexual development,” said Dr Eileen Zurbriggen, Chair of the APA Task Force.

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/healthnews.php?newsid=63514

    This issue is not trivial. We liberals need to remember that we should be, above all, Humanists, not Libertarians, and that means freedom is not an over-riding goal. Unfettered freedom is often a problem, and our society is indeed sliding downhill in some areas, because we haven’t figured out how to balance our love of freedom with our Humanist foundations. Of course this is just one issue. Another serious festering issue is the proliferation of single-parent families, particularly among minorities.

    I don’t profess to know what the solutions are, but we liberals should be able to work on correcting those things which need to be corrected, and thereby avoid ceding the entire moral issue to the American Taliban.

  • Under Beck’s rational is the core of his disposition: He, (and others like him), has become that which he proports to dispise. Kind of like, you know, Brutus in his efforts to justify his actions on that fateful Ides of March; actions that ultimately led him into Dante’s Inferno. Good luck with that Glen! -Kevo

  • There was an article at SLATE the other day about the ‘intellectual’ precursors of Hitler’s fascism. Their common theme was that modern liberalism was destroying the essence of the German culture. Anti-semitism was a hobby, not a real obsession. When Hitler came along, he built on this foundation of discontent and we know what happened next. Hitler was the ‘man of action’ who took their ideas to the next level. Ultimately many of these ‘intellectuals’ became dissillusioned with Hitler, but by then it was too late.

    Whether or not D’Souza, Beck, and their ilk are intellectuals is beside the point. This theme of moral depravity caused by modern liberalism seems familiar. If the new man of action comes along in the times of economic hardship, let’s hope average Americans have the courage to defeat him early on, by violence if necessary. As in Germany, the cleansing will start slowly and with the least acceptable members of society. Apathy will be easy to rationalize using the family values concept. No responsible parent can be expected to risk the well-being and prospects of its family in defense of others.

    IMHO, the best way to defeat the moral depravity assertion is to ask for specifics. Vagueness on the part of these accusers is to their advantage. Americans will not accept a fascist theocracy to defeat abortion, gay rights, feminism, sexual liberty, evolution, tasteless entertainment… Most Americans are quite decent, tolerant and moral. Statistics will back that up. I don’t believe we are in the midst of a crime explosion(a new/old theme I’ve been hearing lately). Moral depravity charges are the WMD, AQ connection charges of the domestic front. Foreigners with no true exposure to American life may be expected to swallow that nonsense based on some of our entertainment media output, but we should not.

  • The problem is the definition of morals.

    I would agree with the statement that extremists hate us because of our morals. But not in the sense that Beck is suggesting. The moral problem we and other western states have is that we value money more then humanity.

    I definitely disagree with the methods they use to express their hatred. But I bet if we had spend the dollars we spent for this war on humanity, the hatred would have been near zero. How can you hate a society that helps the poor and unfortunate. They don’t give a damn about gay marriage and pornography, well they do, but not enough to blow up a bus full of children.

    They read the same stuff we do and when they see our leader suggesting we repeal taxes on the uber wealthy and make up for it by discharging the poor, it makes them mad, it makes me and I think most of the readers here mad as hell.

    So maybe Beck should rethink his analysis of morality.

  • Wow. Glenn Beck works at CNN where they are the purveyors of tawdry celebrity gossip passed off as news that’s beamed to the four corners of the globe and blames national moral decay on a political faction of the US public that wants to end a stupid war and opposes a wrong-headed president? Look Glenn, it’s your channel that sends “news” about Anna Nicole’s boobs, Paris’ latest homemade porno, Britney’s beaver shots and who’s the latest star in rehab to places like the Middle East where they shake their heads at western mores.

    It’s folks on the right, like Rupert Murdoch, who owns moralizing media outlets like Fox News that blames all “moral decay” and also owns the Sun, which is famous for its bare-breasted women on Page 3.

    Beck is scapegoating the left for the crap he is gleaning a paycheck from. Hypocrite.

  • Did it ever occur to anyone that we are greedy, arrogant self-absorbed property owners who worship the love of money over all else?

    That we, as a culture and society, are responsible for the desicration of the planet, and all the wonderful forms of life on it?

    That the USA only 1/20th of the worlds population consume 30%of the worlds nat’l resources, 50% of the worlds energy and create 75% of the worlds solid waste?(Ehrlich)

    You gotta love us!!

  • Actually, this is more true than one might wish to believe – that the political extreme fundamentalist right finds alliance with fundamentalist muslims. A friend of mine who was an FBI counter-terrorism agent with experience in the white supremacist movement argued withing the bureau afdter 9/11 that the people to be watching were the white supremacist domestic terrorists, not immigrant middle easterners, since the domestic terrorists shared the same mind-set as AQ, agreed with their analysis of America and would see helping set off a major terrorist attack as a way of setting off the race war they believe they’d win. Of course, intelligent “intelligence” like this went where all such intelligent thoughts go within Fools & Buffoons Inc., which is why my friend is an ex-FBI counter-terrorism agent.

    But it is still the most likely scenario for a major domestic attack – these people operate on the “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” principle.

  • Great point Tom!! I remember them profiling Arabs after Oklahoma City.
    If your friend left the bureau, I wonder about the expertise of his replacement.

    I just wanted to also say, we need to stop calling these people “conservative”, for they are not. Nor are they “Republicans”, in reference to the party of Lincoln.

    They are Corporate Facsists.

    Say it with me … Corporate fascist…..see? it fits!
    They believe in the power of the Coporation over the power of the electorate. Anything is moral if it makes the Corporation money, but if you, as an individual, enjoy the behavior, you are immoral. Never the Corporation.

    Like Winston Smith in “1984”.
    .

  • Once again, what petorado said!

    I almost made a wingnut’s head explode once by asking them if Rupert Murdoch was a liberal (they said sense enough to say no). Then I asked them why Fox was the biggest source of “liberal” “smut” on TV.

    They had no idea, so I explained how conservatives are being played for chumps by the Corporate Whores. Not sure it took, because the “liberal media” meme was still jammed in their tubes.

    The other thing I always try to work into a conversation is how Dickhead Cheney told Leahy to go F*** himself right on the floor of the Senate.

    Wake up, chumps.

  • Fantastic set of comments above.

    Beck does that thing that Rs do so well — take a tidbit of truth and attempt to use it to promote his ridiculous, preconceived and unrelated notions. Anyone trying to raise a kid in today’s culture knows how difficult it is to instill values that will help them grow into responsible adults. Half of my parenting seems to be helping our daughter see through the crap promoted by capitalists without conscience.

    Sure, there are fanatics in the Middle East who would probably blow themselves up because of our culture. But the overwhelming majority of hatred toward the West comes from the fact that we have so much and yet we’re always screwing with them to protect what we have or grab more.

  • I don’t know about you boys n’ girls, but reading crap like this makes me want to grab complete strangers and kiss ’em right on the lips, then drop my pants and bunny hop down the street.

    Becker is just recycling the same hand wringing that has been around since gods know when. Ooooh noooo! Women are showing their ears in public, the end of the world is nigh. Ooooh nooooo! Negros are demanding rights, it must be the commies trying to take over! Oooooh noooo! Two men holding hands in public, the sky is falling, the sky is fucking falling!

    Frankly, I’ve got problems with some people who profess to follow Islam and they mirror my problems with people who profess to follow Christianity. If a hypothetical Muslim “extremist” wants to get his theoretical pants in a quantum knot because he thinks we’re naughty, fine. I’ve already got mine in a knot because there are many Middle Eastern countries where you’re either a straight male or you’re shit [looking at Saudi Arabia] and there are many so-called Christian Americans who look on in envy (Aw, no fair! They get to beat women and behead gays and no one says anything!) Fuck Beck and his extremist buddies, whatever religion they follow.

  • Glenn Beck is a superficial chowderhead, and the day anything like a piece of real wisdom passes through his skull, it will have a lonely journey. However, much of this is missing the point – far from covering himself in sackcloth and ashes over America’s alleged decadence, Beck revels in it. He regularly asserts the right of Americans, as stockholders in the preeminent global power, to do anything they damned please.

    And this poll; the one that finds smart Muslims are more likely to be extremists – where was it taken? At a Jerry Falwell convention? While we’re on that subject, does this result indicate that all America’s supporters in Iraq are the ones who rode the short bus to school? My money is on the smart ones being the ones who are neither insurgents or supporters – I say the smart ones are those who have left the country.

  • […] it really has not a lot to do with anything other than our morals. — Beck

    To cheat is immoral. To steal and rob is immoral. To torture and kill is immoral. To attack another country without provocation is immoral…

    I’ve always objected to having the word “moral” applied only to sexual behaviour. There’s more to our customs (mores) than sex; Cicero’s famous “o tempora! o mores!” was as much about crooked politics as about dissolving family values. The word “ethics”, which we now apply to everything *but* sex is far less resonant with most of the population being somewhat high-falluting and less mainstreamed into language.

    But, if we were to apply “morals” as the word should be used then, yes, probably the Muslims (and a lot of others) hate us for our morals…

    […] Unfettered freedom is often a problem,[…]–Racerex, @12

    The Polish word for “freedom” (WOLNosc) comes from the root which means “loose” and could be translated as “looseness”. From the same root comes the word “diarrhoea” (rozWOLNienie), which describes “loose bowels”. So a saying “freedom until dirrhoea” is not uncommon. Unfettered fredom is, indeed, often a problem….

  • Modernity is the great humbler. It casts aside humanities hubris and self-importance. The Modern world has liberated the individual from blind tradition and serfdom. Traditions are a means of limiting what a person can be. Liberal democracy and capitalism might have a downside, put the price is well worth it. What would we rather have, a society which allows people to find their own meaning and ultimately take responsibility for their own lives, or one in which self-appointed gurus and fanatics use blind emotion and coercion to enforce conformity of the masses? Those who hate the modern world tend to hate personal freedom and exploration too. The very things which America is founded on. Where would we all be without science, creative freedom and personal autonomy? It would make for a very dull and limited world. Science has removed humanity from the center of the universe. This is much more humbling than the blind certitude of tradition and dogma. Nativism is a sign of weakness and fear. People who reject the modern world want to hold on tight to their self-important delusions. The modern world is about getting things out in the open, even if they are unpleasant. The Islamists, the luddites and the Christian Fundamentalists all hate both truth and freedom. The temptations, harsh truths and complexities of the modern world hurt the weak and reward the resilient, the intelligent and the self-disciplined. Those who need a more traditional support structure and weak and needy individuals. The modern world has confronted us with the truth whether we like it or not.
    Those who hate modernity are embracing a dead end.

  • When Beck was signed on by CNN. I signed OFF CNN. If they want to be a conservative as Fake News’ O’Really? then why watch them. Liberals won the last election. It’s time to make CNN tow the line or get out of the business. Either they go back to neutral, or go find a rock to crawl under. It’s time to turn the whole network off. I don’t care what program they carry, it won’t be shown at my house.

  • First off, if we are immoral, then why can’t they say “shit” on TV? When was the last time you saw a woman’s bare breast on prime time? Or anytime? References to drugs in a positive light aren’t allowed, two men can’t kiss in a sitcom, and the list goes on and on. You can see death and killing of course, we seem very comfortable with that, but not a lot else.

    Most European TV has nudity, French TV has hardcore porn late at night, and if it was immoral behaviour in the Beck sense that they attack, then there should be a big smoking hole where Amsterdam and Prouge used to be.

    But we have banned gay marriage nearly every time it has gone to ballot, the FCC made a split second glimpse of Janet’s boob a crime equal to murder, and I still can’t hear “cock” on prime time TV.

    We are pretty uptight as a nation, hardly the beacon of moral decay that Beck would like to think we are. He should get out more………

  • What makes me laugh about conservatives complaining about our immoral culture of music, movies, books and pornography is that it’s all the result of FREE MARKETS. Yep, that thing they claim will solve all the problems we iky leftists insist government should fix (health care access, education, safe food, safe drugs, you know). Yet somehow a free market of culture just doesn’t work for them.

  • As you can see in this thread its not just the Islamists and the conservatives that think our culture is immoral, its the far left that does too. They think our culture is rotten because of the free market though, while the first two do because of secular values.

    Theres nothing wrong with our culture. To try to blame ‘corporations’ is just agreeing with the conservatives and the Islamists that there is somethig wrong in the first place, only for different reasons. Theres alot of good and alot of bad in our culture, but thats what you get in a free country.

    Also I just want to mention that although the Netherlands… have a similar secular culture, its not as influential around the world as ours is. Thats why theyre not a target, but the Islamists (and the conservatives) hate them too anyhow.

  • When these Christian conservatives talk about moral depravity in America, I’m sure they mean to include crass materialism, dishonesty, glorification of violence, self-indulgence, unrestrained egotism, etc., but the focus is obviously on sex. What they fail to recognize is the role their own obsession with repressing natural sexuality has played in creating Americans’ often immature, sometimes twisted and frequently destructive attitude toward sex. Isn’t it ironic that a figure reputed to have counted prostitutes and other lowlife-types among his closest companions (and who famously refused to condemn an adulteress) should have given rise to a cult with such a generally negative attitude toward sex (to the point of there being a verse in Paul’s letters apparently praising self-castration)?

    It’s unfortunate that these folks can’t take their recognition of sharing a sensibility with al-Qaeda as a hint that this sensibility requires reexamination.

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