Comment trawling reaches the big time

Back in August, Kevin Drum came up with a sensible maxim: “If you’re forced to rely on random blog commenters to make a point about the prevalence of some form or another of disagreeable behavior, you’ve pretty much made exactly the opposite point.” It’s an easy-to-understand concept, which the right has chosen to ignore.

Take this week, for example. A suicide bomber killed nearly two dozen people in Afghanistan at a U.S. military base where Cheney was located. Plenty of liberal bloggers reported on the attack, including me, and the right was anxious to find examples of writers celebrating the bombing. When they had trouble, the right started trawling through comments sections.

Malkin found some Huffington Post commenters saying things such as “Better luck next time!” and “Dr. Evil escapes again … damn.” HuffPo took down the inappropriate comments, but it didn’t matter — the fact that they existed was proof of … well, it’s a little unclear what.

The WaPo’s Howard Kurtz picked up on this today.

This is really sick. I know we’re living in a polarized time. I know there are people who absolutely detest George Bush and Dick Cheney. I know they like to vent their spleen online, sometimes in vulgar terms, and hey, that’s life in a democracy.

But some of the comments posted after a suicide bomber blew himself up at Afghanistan’s Bagram Air Force Base, while Cheney was there–killing as many as 23 people–are nothing short of vile…. Don’t people realize that openly rooting for the death of an American official says way more about them than their intended target? […]

I would agree that it’s absurd to view these assassination fantasies as anything other than the rantings of the fringe, and that they shouldn’t be used to tar an entire ideology. All I’m saying is that it’s really sad that some loons feel this way, and that the Internet culture, however briefly, gives them a megaphone.

I don’t disagree with the sentiment criticizing those who would take pleasure in the bombing, but Kurtz’s broader point seems misplaced.

First, we’re talking about a small handful of anonymous comments on a small handful of blogs. From there, Malkin, Kurtz, and others are pointing to a larger trend of liberal hate.

But they’re missing the point: “If you’re forced to rely on random blog commenters to make a point about the prevalence of some form or another of disagreeable behavior, you’ve pretty much made exactly the opposite point.” Conservatives couldn’t find actual bloggers saying awful things about Cheney and the suicide bombing, so they’re left with cherry-picking through comments sections.

Kurtz writes, “I would agree that it’s absurd to view these assassination fantasies as anything other than the rantings of the fringe, and that they shouldn’t be used to tar an entire ideology.” That’s encouraging, but what, then, is the point of his column? That a handful of unrepresentative anonymous HuffPo readers wrote awful things about Cheney? Why is that interesting? What is it important? Kurtz didn’t say.

Second, and even more importantly, Kurtz argues that the “Internet culture” gives extremists “a megaphone.” Reader Z.G. shared a letter he sent to Kurtz this morning exploring this point in more detail.

Did you and Ms. Malkin express contempt for Ann Coulter (you may have heard of her as she’s not exactly an anonymous commenter) when she wrote, “My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building.” When asked to clarify, she replied: “Of course I regret it. I should have added ‘after everyone had left the building except the editors and the reporters.'”

What about Bill O’Reilly (ring a bell?) when he said that “if Al Qaeda comes in here and blows you up, we’re not going to do anything about it. We’re going to say, look, every other place in America is off limits to you, except San Francisco. You want to blow up the Coit Tower? Go ahead.”

Or Sean Hannity (you may have seen him on tv) when he delivered this bon mot: “This is the moment to say that there are things in life worth fighting and dying for and one of ’em is making sure Nancy Pelosi doesn’t become the speaker.” DYING.

These are not random low-lifes operating in the shadows. These are men and women (and there are many more examples) who are PAID to attack the left. And before you reply that they are clearly joking, note that their zealous followers take them very seriously.

When high-profile conservatives, in high-profile national settings, talk openly about their violent and homicidal fantasies, that’s “really sick.” When low-profile anonymous blog commenters do it, it’s barely a passing curiosity.

Kurtz, I’m afraid, is playing into the far-right game in a way that overlooks the real problem. It’s a shame — if he’s concerned about the civility of our public discourse, perhaps it’s best to start with Hannity, Malkin, Coulter, and O’Reilly, not random commenters who don’t actually have a “megaphone.”

Let’s not forget Coulter’s fantasies about/calls for death of Bill Clinton and Supreme Court judges. Or your boy Glenn Beck regarding a number of folks. And the routine calls by various popular right wing blowhards abour rounding up and wiping out all us treasonous lefties, particulalry those of us who were anti-Iraq War.

  • For all we know those anonymous comments could have been planted by the right. If that is the best he can come up with, he should have skipped his commentary.

  • Like it or not, we’ve allowed….yes, allowed…..our party to be branded as unpatriotic.

    While stupid in this context, there’s a reason that the long time maxim “One bad apple spoils the bunch.” No amount of rationalization nor pointing out how childish it is to rely on some random post by way of a fishing expedition will change what we face here.

    What William Jefferson is to the House Democrats, this is to the grass/netroots.

    And the solution for each is the same: throw the dumbf@cks out on their asses. No second chances, no quarter. Only swift and very public retribution for their irresponsibility. If they want to continue on, there’s a LaRouche website somewhere that would be more than glad to have another member.

    It is what it is, and all attempts to reason through this will fall on deaf ears and be sold in such a way that does more harm than good.

    Remember, the other side is the master at this game, and they already have the ammo to take on the very type of reasoning I’m seeing here and other places.

    What they don’t anticipate is an immediate “don’t let the door hit you in ass” response for the Ds. That moment’s hesitation will kill the story.

    And in the end, that’s real goal.

  • Well, I’ve found an example of Cheney’s near-bombing being celebrated:

    Cheney Nearly Bombed

    At least nine people have died in a suicide bombing at a U.S. base in Afghanistan during Vice President Dick Cheney’s stay. What do you think?

  • He’s not “playing” to the far right… There’s no practical difference between him and them.

  • Deploring the hateful comments of anonymous commenters posting on leftist blogs while uttering not one word concerning the above-mentioned self-inflating pundits on the right engaging in similar behavior and anonymous commenters to reichwing blogs that do exactly the same thing isn’t simply disingenous or lazy, it’s intellectual fraudulence. And how many of those creepy reichwing commenters use their own names? Is anonymity now a problem for Kurtz, et al.?

    To detest Dick Cheney and to call morbidly for his death is not a crime or even a sickness. It’s called frustration and venting my spleen on the Internet is preferable to climbing into the belfry of a chapel and gunning down innocent people on the quadrangle with a high-powered sniper rifle.

    I don’t give one thin damn if morons like Hannity or Limbaugh are put out by my comments. If anything their discomfiture means I am getting my point across.

  • Worrying about what people say in blog comments is as anal as taking what’s written on the walls of toilet stalls seriously. Sheesh.

  • We’re seeing it again, Kurtz is basically agitating for “control” of the internet. In effect, he’s saying “we’ve got to stop all of these irresponsible (liberal) bloggers.” Yup, freedom of expression has always been a problem for totalitarians and the radical-right—freedom of expression for others.

  • Two points.

    First, how do we know they aren’t the anonymous blog posters ?

    Second, if this had been Bill Clinton, I can guarantee some heavy duty bloggers would be saying the exact same vile crap they are disputing.

    Hypocrisy looks like an elephant.

  • Once again, the “Outrage Morons” deplore those nasty leftist blog commenters, but NOT ONE MENTION of the names of the Americans killed in the explosion.
    Maybe that would “humanize” this war too much. Apparently, the dead are not nearly as important as being civil to Dick “Go Fuck Yourself” Cheney and the good people who have brought so much death to our world.
    P.S. I’m glad that Cheney was not hit. These same morons would elevate him to a sainted martyr if that had happened.

  • Where was Howizter when that Freeper bragged about sending fake anthrax letters? Or more recently, when Eric Hunt boasted of his attack on Elie Weisel because he wanted to force Weisel to “confess” that the Holocaust was a big lie?

    But Howie is having kittens because a few people said something he found distasteful about one of the biggest arseholes in recent history. Oh my stars and garters! I do hope dear Howard never goes into a bar. Some of the comments he overheard might cause him to swoon and crack his fragile skull. Get a fucking life or get the fuck out of the intertubes. Yes, people say unpleasant things, but I’d give Mr. Kurtz a hundred bucks for every instance he can find of a person bragging about criminal acts on a left-leaning blog.

    tAiO

    bubba’s already done it once, but Howie, if you read this I hope your next gerbil bites you where the sun does not shine.

  • And all of the vapors over this is a bunch of crap. Everyone truly knows that the ‘terrorists’ would never, ever, attempt to actually assassinate Cheney or Bush. Those two play right into the terrorists’ hands each and every time. Kind of like Marty McFly in Back To The Future, and how Marty would just go all nutso and do the opposite of what he should do whenever he was called ‘yellow’ or ‘chicken.’

  • I was over at Glenn Greenwald’s place yesterday (he’s been all over this thing) and a bunch of folks called him a hypocrite for blasting Malkin and Co. for cherrypicking a few comments, even though Glenn has posted stuff from rightie commenters before. And I know other lefty bloggers have as well.

    But there’s a huge difference in the way it’s done …

    Imagine you’re in a store … say, Lowe’s. A customer (or even two) cusses a blue streak and suggests that the folks over at Home Depot should be shot. The offending patron is thus removed from the store.

    This does NOT mean that the Lowe’s CEO thinks that, nor does it mean that the home improvement industry as a whole believes it. That’s what happened with the HuffPost.

    Now, imagine you’re in another store … say, Macy’s. Hundreds of customers say amazingly hateful things, suggest that the folks over at Nordstrom’s should be shot, and they do so nearly every day. In addition, the CEO of Macy’s agrees, as do the CEOs for Dillards and JC Penney’s and Kohl’s and Gordman’s and almost every other retail CEO, along with a vast majority of their customers.

    This DOES mean that the Macy’s CEO agrees (since he or she has said as much), and since an overwhelming majority of others in the industry already agree, it can be indicative of the whole.

    THAT is the difference here – the right has taken a few comments and tried to make them representative of the whole. Meanwhile, what Glenn does is point out an established pattern of behavior that is tolerated – and often advocated – by those at the top.

    The fact Kurtz has bought into the intellectually dishonest manner in which Malkin and Co. have tried to brand the left as “angry” and/or “unhinged” (the Lowe’s analogy) isn’t all that surprising, since he seems to have a crush on Malkin.

  • He should have stopped with “I would agree that it’s absurd to view these assassination fantasies as anything other than the rantings of the fringe”.

    It does make one wonder: under what conditions, other than the ones now currently pertaining, would he agree to that? Because, obviously, if he agreed, he’d see that writing the article he wrote is absurd.

    No one needs to point out that the web makes it possible for the rantings of fringes to be found easily and in plenty. And since it would be absurd to view these comments as anything else, there’s nothing to write about here.

    So, does he mean “If I weren’t a tool of the right-wing noise machine that has column-inches to fill, I would agree …” or what?

  • In Crime and Punishment, Dostoyevsky examines the morality of killing an old pawn-broker for the greater good of the society. The book leaves you more or less certain that it is immoral to take a life based on assumed future consequences.

    Cheney invaded Iraq which led to the killing of thousands of innocents, with the excuse that it’s for the greater good of the world (“the world is better off…”). He also indicates that he would invade Iran in the future.

    So while wishing Cheney’s death is immoral, HOWEVER, the commenters were only following Cheney’s own Raskolnikov-ian logic (Cheney’s death would bring peace to the middle East as much as killing Saddam did).

    So at least the commenters were at a moral equivalence with Cheney.

  • There’s a major point being overlooked here. Are the comments being touted really randomly picked? Or would the more correct term be cherry-picked? My guess would be that Spawn of Insanity and the rest are only looking for blog comments that support their case and probably aren’t representative of the comments on the blog as a whole.

  • “perhaps it’s best to start with Hannity, Malkin, Coulter, and O’Reilly”

    That list is incomplete without Rush Limbaugh. He really pioneered the 24/7 right-wing hate fest.

  • Arent Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson typical of religious people? And unfortunately they have millions of followers, unlike the occasion ranting lefty. When are they going to denounced and shunned?

  • There needs to be a one-stop site that collects all the over-the-line right-wing pundit/blog/message board commentary it’s possible to collect, just so everyone knows how much of it there really is and we can kill this “only libs are uncivil” meme once and for all. A-list lefty bloggers need to link to the site and they need to keep hectoring the Kurtzes and Richard Cohens of the world so they take note of it.

  • And no, Media Matters isn’t enough, though it’s a great start. Media Matters is about broadcast and print, not really the Net. That’s a gap that needs to be plugged.

  • There needs to be a one-stop site that collects all the over-the-line right-wing pundit/blog/message board commentary it’s possible to collect, just so everyone knows how much of it there really is and we can kill this “only libs are uncivil” meme once and for all.

    I honestly considered starting such a site last year and calling it “Comments from the Right” or “Under the Bridge” (for trolls) or similar. Guess there are no new ideas under the sun, eh?

    Unfortunately, I did not — and still do not — have nearly enough free time to do such a thing. It also doesn’t help that about 98% of the blogsphere is blocked at work.

    It would, however, be a great thing to do.

  • Shimmy,

    It’s well established that she yells “Air Assualt” during the act, as well.

  • “Comment trawling”? I thought we agreed the term is “nutpicking.”

    Oh well. I guess it takes time to get the neologism ball rolling. Or “neo-ball,” as I like to call it.

  • We have no verification that it was “a suicide bomber targeting” The Dick – all we know is someone blew up a bomb while The Dick was there. It’s a false flag. When are you mamby pamby liberals going to learn when you’re being lied to?

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