When a senior aide to the nation’s top law enforcement official takes the 5th

I appreciate and respect that witnesses are entitled to take advantage of their [tag]5th Amendment[/tag] rights. It’s a bedrock legal principle and it’s wrong to jump to conclusions when it happens.

But given the circumstances, and using a little common sense, this looks awfully bad for the Bush gang.

Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales’s senior counselor yesterday refused to testify in the Senate about her involvement in the firings of eight U.S. attorneys, invoking her Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

Monica M. Goodling, who has taken an indefinite leave of absence, said in a sworn affidavit to the Senate Judiciary Committee that she will “decline to answer any and all questions” about the firings because she faces “a perilous environment in which to testify.” […]

Goodling’s refusal to testify illustrates the rising political and legal stakes surrounding the removal of the federal prosecutors, and underscores the fissures developing among Gonzales and his current and former senior aides as the attorney general struggles to keep his job.

The decision means a senior aide to the nation’s top law enforcement official is in the remarkable position of refusing to testify for fear of implicating herself in a crime. (emphasis added)

That sound you hear are the stakes of the scandal being raised. As right-wing CNN contributor Terry Jeffrey said yesterday, “It is inexcusable for people in the Justice Department to take the 5th amendment to avoid testifying in Congress. People there must go testify. There’s no question about it.”

And why is Goodling, the Justice Department’s White House liaison, pleading the 5th? According to a letter from her attorney, Goodling believes mean ol’ Democrats aren’t open-minded enough about what happened, and already suspect the worst, so she doesn’t want to talk to them.

Is that a legitimate option for refusing to testify? It doesn’t look like it.

A TPM reader explained:

I read the letter from Ms. Goodling’s attorney, and it seems rather odd to me. He says that Ms. Goodling will not testify because she fears that, even though telling the truth, she may face perjury charges due to the hostility of Democrats on the Judiciary Committee. The Fifth Amendment, however, has nothing to do with perjury or with feared partisanship. Rather, it states a privilege against self-incriminating testimony. If the Fifth were to be accepted every time a witness feared a perjury indictment, we would have very few witnesses, indeed.

That’s a good summary. Goodling’s argument seems to be that she’s willing and able to tell the truth, and she’s done nothing wrong, but her testimony may be misused in some way. As Josh put it, “[T]here’s no 5th amendment privilege against testifying before meanies.”

In any case, if you look at the letter Goodling’s attorney sent the committee, the essence of his argument is that the committee has relinquished its legitimacy as an investigative forum and that she has thus unilaterally decided that she will refuse to testify. (As part of the argument for not testifying, Goodling’s lawyer notes that “it is not uncommon for witnesses who give testimony before the Congress to face criminal investigations and even indictments for perjury, false statements, or obstruction of congressional proceedings.”) It amounts to a sort of witness’s nullification.

Interestingly, or perhaps revealingly, at the end of the letter, John Dowd, Goodling’s attorney asserts that “we have advised Ms. Goodling (and she has decided) to invoke her Constitutional right not to answer any questions.”

This is more than a semantic point. The constitution says nothing about a right not to answer questions. The actual words are that no one “shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself” — or in the more modern parlance, your right against self-incrimination. This is why you lose your ‘right not to answer questions’ as soon as you’re granted immunity.

And who, by the way, is [tag]Monica Goodling[/tag]?

Goodling, 33, is a 1995 graduate Messiah College in Grantham, Pa., an institution that describes itself as “committed to embracing an evangelical spirit.”

She received her law degree at Regent University in Virginia Beach, Va. Regent, founded by Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson, says its mission is “to produce Christian leaders who will make a difference, who will change the world.”

E-mails show that Goodling was involved in planning the dismissals and in later efforts to limit the negative reaction. As the Justice Department’s liaison to the White House, she could shed light on the extent of White House involvement in the dismissals.

Yesterday’s letter notwithstanding, she still might. Be on the lookout for a possible immunity deal, in which Goodling gives testimony that implicates others in exchange for immunity from possible prosecution.

do i smell popcorn?

OT, msnbc’s headline states that the us is beginning exercises off the coast of iran this morning. is this the diversion that the bush administration has been waiting for? problem with firing attorneys? oh, never mind, look over here instead………

  • Maybe she should get a lawyer with some knowledge of the law. This crap just pisses everybody off.

  • The weakness of Goodling’s position is evident from the really poor argument her attorney makes on her behalf. I don’t see how the committee can allow it to stand, given the likelihood that doing so would encourage others to use it to shield themselves from being questioned.

    Akin, Gump has an excellent reputation, but like the firm and the attorneys which represented Libby, there’s only so much you can do when you have so little to work with and such shaky legal ground to stand on.

  • Gee, another fundy jackass with a dubious law degree? At least she knew what the 5th Amendment was. Does little to help Gonzo though.

    I guess Regent U should add some qualifications to it’s “mission” statement.

    “to produce (fundie) Christian “leaders” who will make a difference (mostly not for the better), who will change the (secular) world–by any means necessary.”

  • #3 – Good to know I’m not the only one picturing Ms Goodling saying ‘fizz-eeeeefth’….

    BTW, I’m really dumb – can someone help me understand how somebody can perjure oneself “while telling the truth” just because of hostile questioning? If you stick to the whole truth and nothing but the truth, doesn’t that, I don’t know, FRICKING RULE OUT perjury?

  • Also, did anyone notice that in Goodling’s letter, as an example of someone who gets charged with perjury despite telling the truth, she cites:

    “One need look no further than the recent circumstances and proceedings involving Lewis Libby.”

    Bwahahahahaa…. wow, is evoking sympathy for a convicted perjurer who covered up treason really the best way to go, Ms Goodling?

  • So. We finally get to the point where the Bush camp can’t say, “Well, Clinton did it, too”.

  • This Christianist zealot isn’t likely to take an immunity deal. I bet a little waterboarding would make her talk, though.

  • CB sez: “…it’s wrong to jump to conclusions when [witnesses take advantage of their 5th Amendment rights]…”

    I think it would be wrong if this wasn’t the 57th scandal Bush’s creeps have been involved in.

  • Ohioan, the true wingnuts all believe that Libby was railroaded.

    Reality just isn’t their bag.

  • ***“committed to embracing an evangelical spirit.”***

    …and…

    ***“Christian leaders who will make a difference, who will change the world.”***

    Wow. Seems it’s “Breakin’ the Law for Jee-Zuz” time. Forget the popcorn; I’m getting a truckload of mesquite.

    Mmmm……barbeque. Y’all want KC-style sauce—or should I mix up a batch of “Ohio Thermonuclear?”

  • RE: Comment 6 by Ohioan

    Yes, it would seem that if you testify truthfully there could be no question of perjury. On the other hand, if your concern is that you will be made a fall guy by the higher-ups to protect themselves, than you might legitimately be concerned that your truthful testimony might be portrayed as untruthful and then you are facing a perjury charge.

    Please do not construe the above as indicating sympathy for Goodling. She got herself into this mess and she should face the consequences.

  • So this is the lead council to the Attorney Gebneral who used to be lead council to the whitehouse and none of these people (Jesus aside) can figure out the 5th Amendment to the Constitution? Between this 33 year old and the 32 year old Rethug from Florida who is somehow the #3 man in the House GOP caucus, I’m gettig the impression that a new crop of total lunatics has hatched andis quickly rising in the ranks of the GOP. What happened to old men who would guard my money like a rabid dog? Now it is wet nosed 30 somethings with Jesus in their hearts and distain for freedom. Sad really.

  • ***Between this 33 year old and the 32 year old Rethug from Florida….***
    Is it just me, or is anyone else wondering if there’s a connection between the biological conception of these fascist “uberchildren” and the early years of the Nixonian Exile? Very Mengele-esque, it seems….

  • Using the Libby case as a cautionary tale? Libby was investigated, tried and convicted because he **didn’t tell the truth**, repeatedly, to the FBI and, quite conspicuously, to the *grand jury* investigating the whole matter.

    I’m jes’ seyin’

  • Oh they were all over the 5th during the Clinton wtich trials. Wingnut pundits explained at length how taking the fifth was an admission of guilt and even that the fifth could be over-ridden by prosecutors. It couldn’t happen to a nicer theocrat-lawyer.

  • What’s the deal with McClatchy Newspapers? Didn’t they get the memo from Time Inc., Chris Matthews, and David Broder for the MSM not to harass the Bushies. McClatchy has been particularly aggressive regarding the prosecutor purge. Is McClatchy the first in the MSM to wake up to the value of blogs (such as TPM and our CBR)?

  • Why aren’t the media scribes all over Goodling for the same reasons TPM is? Aren’t there any “legal experts” on the staffs of the networks and newspapers who can see a mile-wide hole in this Fifth Amendment nonsense? And what about the Congress? Schumer expressed his “regret” yesterday that Goodling will take the Fifth, so clearly, he’s been bamboozled. Will Josh Marshall be the only person to call Goodling on this?

  • I think according to my bar review outline, you have to believe that you may be subject to criminal charges to invoked the 5th- as opposed to there being a possibility that you may be indicted, whether rightfully or wrongfully.

    But I don’t know if that’s a prosecutor-friendly reading of the law. Those bar review outlines are kind of confusing at points. It could be that some courts have made it sound one way, others another, and the higher courts haven’t decided the precise point. So it could depend on whether you’re actually in danger of being properly indicted, and whether you subjectively believe that or not- just some guidance for if you want to ask a lawyer who knows better than I do about the question. Obviously this isn’t something I’ve focused on myself any time recently.

  • #15: In contrast on the Dem side, you have some pretty incredible 30-somethings in the House: Tim Ryan, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Kendrick Meek, the Murphys… I’m sure I missing a few more… the true leaders of their generation.

  • I think this young woman knows a lot, and has broken the law, so she doesn’t want to testify. I don’t blame her; I wouldn’t want to either. She has a lot to learn; she is young and was probably very naive when she took the job. Probably she thought “the Lord” would lead her down a “right path”, and it must have been very exciting for her to get this fancy job at such a young age. It’s just too bad “the Lord” led her into a pit of vipers rather than into a den of righteousness. Maybe she will get an immunity deal and we will find out what is really going on.

  • I’m so tired of my tax dollars being used to pay some idiot religious zealot’s salary. Bush just surrounds himself with these dolts because their compliant little believers in his Koreshian vision to re-make America. Tedious twits.

  • Goodling, 33, is a 1995 graduate Messiah College in Grantham, Pa., an institution that describes itself as “committed to embracing an evangelical spirit.”

    She received her law degree at Regent University in Virginia Beach, Va. Regent, founded by Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson, says its mission is “to produce Christian leaders who will make a difference, who will change the world.”

    Who was it recently (in government) who complained about “the homeschooled zealots with bible college degrees”??? Geez….

    The deprogramming that’s going to be necessary with these Boys and Girls from Brazil is truly amazing.

    So, do to her what used to be done to anti-war activists by Federal grand juries 35 years ago: give her “use immunity” and if she doesn’t comply throw her worthless ass in jail till she does. It’s what the Nixonian DoJ set up back then,so it’s not like it’s some “Democratic plot,” despite what the otherwise-unemployables from the MSM will say.

  • Josh Marshall cites a TPM reader:

    Monica Goodling does have a good faith basis for pleading the Fifth Amendment – just not the ones in her lawyer’s letter that are getting all the attention.
    Under the federal False Statements statute, 18 USC 1001, it is a felony to cause another person to make a false statement to Congress. Since McNulty has allegedly told Senator Schumer that he made a false statement to Congress based on information provided to him by Monica Goodling, Goodling could very well be prosecuted for a Section 1001 violation.

    All the rest of the crap in her lawyer’s letter is intended to sooth as much as possible WH anger at her for invoking the Fifth.

  • “This is why you lose your ‘right not to answer questions’ as soon as you’re granted immunity.”

    So is she telegraphing a willingness to name names if she is granted immunity?

  • Not to go overboard with posts here, but here’s another comment from TPM that more fully explains why the comment above may be the key to all this:

    On page two of the letter, Goodling’s lawyer asserts as the fourth reason for her refusal to testify that “it has come to our attention that a senior Department of Justice official has privately told Senator Schumer that he (the official) was not entirely candid in his report to the Committee, and that the official allegedly claimed that others, including our client, did not inform him of certain pertinent facts.”

    His name isn’t stated. But this appears to be a reference to Deputy Attorney General McNulty, the subject of this post from earlier this evening. Here we finally appear to have a bad act that Goodling believes or at least claims may expose her to criminal prosecution — lying to Congress by proxy by intentionally misinforming an official about to testify before Congress.

    Just watching this from the outside, it looks as though that is the bad act she’s afraid to testify about or — and somehow I find this more believeable — she’s afraid of indictment for perjury because she has to go up to Congress and testify under oath before the White House has decided what its story is. And yeah, I’d feel like I was in jeopardy then too.

  • It might be something even simpler, but really embarrassing. On another thread — sorry, don’t remember the blog — a number of writers claimed to have checked the bar records and that they were unable to find any state in which she was licensed to practice. If so, that’s an ooops — and possibly a prosecutable one.

  • She probably hasn’t even broken any laws, because like the commenter that was quoted said, it sounds very much like she is trying to avoid testifying before “those meany Democrats”. This, along with Bush’s claim that Rove and Co. don’t have to testify, is nothing more than frivolous manuvering to avoid shedding light on the criminal behavior of this administration.

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