A growing consensus around blaming the victim

National Review’s John Derbyshire opened the door yesterday, and others appear anxious to walk through it. I can’t say I’m completely surprised, though I thought conservatives might wait more than 48 hours before putting their callousness on display.

As we talked about yesterday, Derbyshire got the blame-the-victim ball rolling, questioning why victims of the Virginia Tech massacre didn’t do more to attack the well-armed madman. “[W]hy didn’t anyone rush the guy?” Derbyshire asked. “It’s not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons… At the very least, count the shots and jump him reloading or changing hands. Better yet, just jump him.”

Since then, high-profile conservative writers at high-profile outlets have been anxious to follow Derbyshire’s lead. Nathaniel Blake at Human Events Online argued that students at Virginia Tech should feel “heartily ashamed” for what he sees as their cowardice.

“College classrooms have scads of young men who are at their physical peak, and none of them seems to have done anything beyond ducking, running, and holding doors shut,” Blake said. “Something is clearly wrong with the men in our culture. Among the first rules of manliness are fighting bad guys and protecting others: in a word, courage. And not a one of the healthy young fellows in the classrooms seems to have done that.”

National Review’s Mark Steyn piled on today, even tying the shootings into a rant against government in general.

[Virginia Tech students are] not “children.” The students at Virginia Tech were grown women and — if you’ll forgive the expression — men….

We do our children a disservice to raise them to entrust all to officialdom’s security blanket. Geraldo-like “protection” is a delusion: when something goes awry — whether on a September morning flight out of Logan or on a peaceful college campus — the state won’t be there to protect you. You’ll be the fellow on the scene who has to make the decision. […]

Murderous misfit loners are mercifully rare. But this awful corrosive passivity is far more pervasive, and, unlike the psycho killer, is an existential threat to a functioning society.

Wait, there’s more.

By way of my friend Michael J.W. Stickings, Michelle Malkin is very much on the same page.

Instead of teaching students to defend their beliefs, American educators shield them from vigorous intellectual debate. Instead of encouraging autonomy, our higher institutions of learning stoke passivity and conflict-avoidance. And as the erosion of intellectual self-defense goes, so goes the erosion of physical self-defense.

Enough is enough, indeed. Enough of intellectual disarmament. Enough of physical disarmament. You want a safer campus? It begins with renewing a culture of self-defense — mind, spirit and body. It begins with two words: Fight back.

While I find all of this morally repugnant, I also can’t help but marvel at the political ineptitude. I suppose these far-right voices deserve credit for sharing their genuine reactions, abhorrent though they may be, but do Derbyshire, Blake, Steyn, and Malkin really want the narrative of the VT tragedy to be, “Conservatives blame victims for massacre”?

Indeed, in the wake of a national tragedy, that shocked decent people everywhere, these right-wing voices haven’t done much to improve their class-quotient over the last couple of days.

“Blame the Muslims!”

“What? The shooter wasn’t a Muslim?”

“Blame the students!”

There’s a certain tin-ear quality to the whole thing. The nation was horrified on Monday; too many on the right seem anxious to make sure the nation is offended on Tuesday and Wednesday.

It’s almost as if these guys want to drive people away from conservatism. Honestly, for those who aren’t fully engaged in politics on a regular basis, how many Americans are going to look at this week’s events and say, “You know, I want to be on the side of those blaming the students for getting killed on Monday.”

Ruff tuff cream puffs.

Always talkin’ tuff.

  • Put all these brave conservatives in a locked room with an armed man who wants to kill them without mercy and see how they respond. If they’re such fierce warriors why don’t they pick up a rifle and join the fight in Iraq?

  • Reminds me of the fascist cult of masculinity and their ideas of the rejuvenating effects of aggression and violence.

  • Perhaps these defenders of freedumb and bullshit should form a super cadre of comic book assholes, er, minoheroes. Sort of like the Justice League. I think Team Chickenhawk.

    Steyn aka the Emmasculator Phantom whose special power is to yell at young men to grow a pair but surprisingly has the crotch of a Ken Doll. And Phantom due to that phony English accent (he’s a Canadian export we don’t want back>0

    Derbyshire aka the Urinator, who wets himself in the face of “evil”

    Blake aka Brave Brave Sir Robin

    Malkin aka the Po City BoomBoom Girl, who has the ability to shoot ping pong balls out of her lower orifices and make arguments without logic or reason.

  • They are morally bankrupt and so are their publishers and a society that accepts them. They are the true enemies of humanity. And, oh yes, they are O-b-s-o-l-e-t-e.

  • Out in the hallway, custodian Gene Cole was slowly rounding a corner. He had taken the elevator up from the first floor, seeking a fellow employee because of an e-mail about a shooting two hours earlier at a dormitory at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in southwestern Virginia.
    “People were running out of the labs,” he said. He saw a body on the floor, “still jerking.”
    Cole then came face to face with the gunman. He said the young man fired at him, but missed. He described the shooter as a “foreigner with a black automatic handgun,” wearing a hat and blue jeans.
    Cole fled, racing back down the stairs. “There was blood all over the floor,” he said.

    Coward.

    Should have used his mop as a sort of lance and charged the guy like Mr. Clean would have done….

  • There is one point I agree with, to a point, that we should not infantilize the students. They are not children, they are adults, and people of the same age range are fighting in Iraq. But as to how they reacted, not having been in their position, no one else is in any position to criticize, and while there is the possibility that there was some way that they could have fought back, it is more likely that there may have been even more senseless deaths.

  • Ronald Reagan, the B Movie action hero, pretended to be the brave and invincible leader that he played on the silver screen, and he sold that crap to the nation..much like that 20 Mule Team Borax Soap he used to pitch on t.v. Our mass culture is warped and hypnotised by advertising and propaganda into mindless idiocy .

  • So I guess their underlying message is that people should use force to disrupt the plans of evil people.

    How about evil people like BushCo?

  • do Derbyshire, Blake, Steyn, and Malkin really want the narrative of the VT tragedy to be, “Conservatives blame victims for massacre”?

    Well, obviously.

    If they’re going to externalize their own feelings of inadequacy, they shouldn’t do it at the expense of those poor kids, the fucktards.

  • It begins with two words: Fight back

    Of course, when Democrats started fighting back against the mendacity, incompetence and corrpution of the Republicans, it got labeled “Bush Derangement Syndrome”…

  • Someone should have shot the guns out of the guy’s hands, just like they used to do in the movies.

  • What’s funny about this is that people did fight back. One guy blocked a door with a desk. The office I work at, if someone busted in and surprised us all, I’ll bet they’d get most, if not all of us (approximately 25 people), just because there’s only one entrance.

    Geography and human nature play a role in these things. If you can’t get out, you can’t get out. Pure and simple. Even during times of war this kind of thing has happened. Just ask Sgt. York.

  • This crap just shows that 1. movies have created this weird expectation (in the minds of wing-nuts) of swarthy “real” men leaping through windows, etc. to get the evil ones and connected them to right-wing “heroism” (and the yo-yos have watched too many) and 2. confirms that conservatives seem to be made up of a bunch of people who are sick, psychotic, deranged, irrational, childish bastards.

  • It plays into their narrative of liberal brainwashing at universities in this country. The sissy liberals taught them to run. If they were getting the conservative message, they would’ve joined the national guard, er, I mean they would’ve kicked some foreigner ass.

  • The semi discredited historian SLAM Marshall wrote a book called Men Against Fire. He basically states that only 10-15% of soldiers in combat units actually fired on the enemy while the rest did not (no slams on their bravery.) SLAM’s premise was that the 10-15% are natural born killers or aggressors. This led to the US military to condition their soldiers to kill leading to firing rates of 90% and lots of friendly fire incidents.

    Why I bring this up is that the vast majority of humans regardless of age, youth or sex have to be conditioned to fight back. These are just ordinary college kids who came to learn not to fight. Did I go to school expecting to deal with some deranged killer? No. Why would I? I’m pretty sure I would have run like hell had I been in that situation.

    One last thing that I should mention. In Canada, we had the Montreal Massacre in 1989 when another deranged nut killed six females and wounded many at the Ecole du Polytechnique. Many of their male classmates were wracked with guilt as they couldn’t do anything against a madman with an assault rifle. In fact several of them killed themselves because they couldn’t deal with the guilt. The VTech survivors are going to have to live with the pain of this for the rest of their lives. They don’t need bullshit like this.

    The real problem is that deep down Derby, Steyn, Malkin and Blake are the biggest fucking cowards of all and are projecting their pantswetting fears onto folks who don’t need or deserve their “scorn.”

  • And what about all those pussies on the other three planes on 9/11 who did absolutely nothing?

    For Christ sake, must conversatives immediately leap onto every event and turn it into political crap? This is why the Republican Party is in trouble. And I say keep it coming! They don’t see it yet, but bullshit like this is going to turn off the base in a huge way. These assholes sound like they’d be happier with the Taliban in charge of things.

  • I’ll think about the heroism of these sub-human halfwits the day I ever hear of any of them joining up to go fight all the wars they advocate. John Derbryshite, Professional Tory Twit, reminds me why my ancestors kicked his ilk out of here 230 years ago – why did we let him back in?

    As to Michell Malkin, it’s nice to see that there is indeed a career available for an over-the-hill Olongapo Boom-Boom Girl.

    Both of these halfwits prove the money to be made being a halfwit in the world of the tenthwits.

  • The thing that I don’t get about it is what does the right gain from portraying the victims as a bunch of sissies? It’s not like this was a democratic meeting so they could say that republicans would have prevented the tragedy. They’re picking on a bunch of helpless (and largely dead) people.

    It is reminiscent of Redstate’s outrage on the morning of the Mumbai bombings that people are referring to the city as Mumbai and not Bombay. It’s just stupid self-righteousness that, in the end, proves more harmful to their cause.

  • Can’t wait to see the comments from those same pundits when the campus cops haul some guy into the office for blowing his classmate out of his Keds because he thought the stapler he was holding was a gun. Or whacking the philosophy prof because she called him a liar. How long before Americans all start referring to each other as “Pilgrim”, and practicing their fast draw?

  • I did a pretty good job of refuting the idea that you could count the shots fired and then know when he’s reloading, and jump him, on the post from yesterday, I think- but my comments were late, so a lot may have missed them. Check them out.

    Here’s a recap- this is all coming from my dad having kept piles of Soldier of Fortune and Guns and Ammo and a gun book or two in our garage that he never really read, not much of a gun nut and neither am I- but this stuff is easy to figure out:

    1) First of all, to jump him when he ran out of bullets, you would have to not get shot before the shooter ran out.

    2) Second, you’d have to recognize what kind of guns he was carrying, despite your surprise (shock) and distance from him, and despite the danger of exposing yourself to take a look at him. Not all handguns carry the same number of bullets per clip. Even if you could recognize them, a lot of handguns resemble each other, kind of like clone computers- the designs are knock-offs. So it may be possible that there are two guns that look really the same, but carry different amounts per clip.

    3) What if you’re not looking at him while he’s firing? While you’re counting shots, he may have only had four shots left in the clip because, say, he used some before he was on the scene- and he could reload without you seeing. So when you peek out because you think he’s run out, he’s actually got a few left.

    4) Another problem with not watching him shoot- he has two guns, so you’ve got to be able to tell which he’s firing by sound. That may not be too much of a problem, I don’t know, but it may make counting more confusing at least.

    5) Even if you’re absolutely sure you know what kind of gun he’s carrying and how much it holds in a clip, and you saw him put a clip in it, some guns can hold a cartridge manually loaded into the chamber in addition to the full clip. Also, it’s not certain he loads the clips all the way- could be he’s only loading a random amount in each clip because he’s crazy. So again, if you’re not looking at him, your counting will be wrong.

    6) Even if all this works out, and you correctly count til he runs out, he may not have run out of the other gun’s bullets. He may even have it on him just so he’s never without a gun that’s loaded. So when you charge him from behind a desk, he just pulls the other one out.

    7) Even if you can jump him, you’ve got to be able to beat him up or take his weapons without him hurting you, and it’s possible he may get that new clip in before you are able to disable him, flee, or scare him away. So you might just get shot at a closer range.

    I think sometimes being a hero is the best answer and maybe it was in this one, but its callous and reckless to say that the students did the wrong thing without knowing what the real situation was. It’s just as smart to not be the hero, if that’s what the best answer was, as it is to be a hero, if that’s what the best answer was. So Malkin and Derbyshire and all these commentators could be telling American college students to be stupid som of the time, for no reason, so long as you’re trying to attack somebody you have an excuse to attack. That’s screwed up.

  • The best thing to do is really to run in the opposite direction, zig zagging, if you can, or if you can’t (because you’re trapped in a classroom or something) to try to outflank him. If one person can approach him from one side, and the other can try to get around his side or his back, it may give you a lot better chance to get close to him.

    The basic idea in that situation is to give him too many things to do at once. If three people jump him simultaneously, and some throw 5-6 heavy objects at him- people besides those rushing him, so it’s all simultaneous- then it makes it a lot harder for one person to shoot at everyone trying to rush him before they get to him.

    Again, I really hope people rush people when it’s the right thing to do, but these conservative commenters are assuming too much.

  • I heard that in that WTC movie, there’s a scene where the guys who jump the terrorists restrain a liberal-looking type who wants them to talk it out right before they roll. How much you wanna bet that in a lot of these real life situations, it’s a smart person that thinks up the best idea to do, but the jocks refuse to follow it because none of them thought it up?

  • The thing that I don’t get about it is what does the right gain from portraying the victims as a bunch of sissies?

    I honestly think that they think it hurts them that the Columbine killers were a couple of tall white guys with a lot more weapons than this kid, and they killed a lot less than he was able to. I think the conseratives think it makes white males look bad.

  • “How much you wanna bet…”

    0. Zero. Nada. Because when the average person hears gunfire, they run. They’re not sitting down to chat about it. They’re trying to put distance and obstacles between the gun and their body.

    What the hell is “a liberal-looking type”? Are you implying that all smart people are liberal and all jocks are conservative and that smart and jock are mutually exclusive?

    Seriously, three comments in a row is comment spamming.

  • Derbyshire, Blake, Steyn, and Malkin! Will someone please provide a profile of these gasbags’ service records. Have any of them been trained in fire arms? What do they know about harsh horrors such as the rampage at VTU on Monday? Once again these pundits have provided us with their intellectual masterbations. -Kevo

  • I put this “why didn’t they jump ‘im?” bs on a par with the “we have to torture!” theory. Both owe their persuasiveness, to they extent they have any, to TV and the movies. People get so caught up in escapist entertainment that they actually think the wildly implausible scenes on their TV or movie screens – an unarmed hero boldly disarms the armed madman! A tough CIA agent uses his fists to force the truth out of a craven miscreant! – have something to do with reality.

    Believing movies and TV are reality is, of course, a sign of gross immaturity, a refusal to confront the complexities and compromises of the real world. So it’s a state of mind conservatives feel very comfortable with.

  • For Christ sake, must conversatives immediately leap onto every event and turn it into political crap? This is why the Republican Party is in trouble. And I say keep it coming! They don’t see it yet, but bullshit like this is going to turn off the base in a huge way.

    True. Assholes like Derb think that because they offend liberals, they’ve scored a point, which is probably why the screeching classes are falling into lockstep. But it seems to me calling the dead kids a bunch of cowards is liable to blow up big time.

  • The thing that I don’t get about it is what does the right gain from portraying the victims as a bunch of sissies?

    It’s part of framing. It’s a pre-emptive strike to control the discussion. Notice how we’re talking about this and NOT about Virginia’s notoriously lax gun laws? Or about gun laws in general?

  • It really is too bad that we need these brave heroes back here typing instead in Iraq, cleaning the streets single-handedly like Bronson in Deathwish. Can’t we get some whackjob writer training programs up and running so we could free-up these Rambos so they can go to Iraq? I know it’s an important job they do, but perhaps if we put hundreds of people in oxygen-deprived rooms for long enough, we could easily train enough people to replace the entire NRO staff, as well as all of Red State.

  • What’s always the most impressive to me is the ability to intellectually disconnect.

    So, I’m supposed to blindly trust big-daddy-government to protect me, to the extent that I give up my personal freedoms for “officialdom’s security blanket,” but when “something goes awry . . . the state won’t be there to protect [me]?” I thought the Decider was going to keep the scary away, but now I’ll be “the fellow on the scene who has to make the decision?”

    How do they keep their heads from exploding?

  • What about an experiment? Placing the blame-the-victims group into a large classroom with someone who looks liberal with a gun. The gun can have blanks in it. The btv group will crap their pants or scrape their knees crawling away. They are not cowards for doing this. Trying to escape will be the one sign of intelligence they’ve exhibited.

  • I think the thing that’s got conservatives scared is that, compared to some other rampaging killers, Cho was relatively lightly armed. Two powerful, easy to use pistols, but pistols just the same. What I mean is, this guy was able to wreak havoc without an assualt rifle.

    There is the possibility that the VT events will make even handgun ownership less desirable because they are more dangerous. The NRA would hate that.

    And as for the idea that allowing students to “carry and conceal” could have prevented this massacre, that would mean you’d need at least one armed and trained student in each classroom. If you figure that the average class size is 25 students [and I’m no stats expert] then 1 in every 25 students would have to be armed. And at Tech, that’s a thousand students.

  • Placing the blame-the-victims group into a large classroom with someone who looks liberal with a gun. The gun can have blanks in it. The btv group will crap their pants or scrape their knees crawling away. They are not cowards for doing this.

    Better yet – put them in a shower with a gay guy.

  • > It’s testosterone worship, or testosterone poisioning – take your pick. — Always hopeful

    You are righter than you know. Look at the original quote again:

    The students at Virginia Tech were grown women and — if you’ll forgive the expression — men….

    So let me get this straight: the males are denigrated but not the females. The males… failed to meet expectations of a higher level of performance than the females? For the women it’s OK to cower down and get shot but the Real Men ™ are supposed to behave differently?

    What century is this guy from?

  • (# 8: I think it’s a competitive sperm count.)

    I’ve heard the statistics Former Dan mentions in # 17, although I didn’t know it originated with SLA Marshall. I think the numbers have increased a bit over the years, but I have my own theory about the reluctance of soldiers to fire their weapons during combat. Firing a weapon calls attention to the one firing it.

    In other words, you send out a bunch of bullets, you get a bunch back at you.

  • I’m not claiming, by the way, that it’s not logical to think of counting the bullets or that how many bullets the guy has left or has probably fired is not something you’d want to know in any kind of situation where a guy is trying to shoot you. I’m just saying that the idea of counting the bullets is not a good basis to criticize the victims on.

    #16, that’s funny, but the Dirty Harry situation is a little different, which makes it a little more realistic. You’ll all remember that Harry Callahan carries a Magnum revolver- it’s a big, highly visible gun, conspicuously a revlolver. I think revolvers carry only 6, 8, or 12 cartridges, with 6 by far being more common- I don’t know anything about Magnums. You could expect a person to know that a revolver probably has 6 shots, so if you’re in a gun battle with a guy who using a revolver and you’v got your eye on him pretty much the whole time, and it seems like he’s fired 6 shots, it’s a good bet he needs to reload.

    But this kid’s guns weren’t revolvers, and in fact one had a 10 bullet clip and the other, 15.

  • One rainy evening many years ago, my wife and I and another couple were held up by two gunmen in the parking lot of a restaurant. Afterward, I went inside and asked if I could use the phone to call the police. The owner asked why I just didn’t blow them away as they made their getaway.

    He knew nothing of the situation, nor did he consider the risk I would have placed my companions in by starting a shootout. But the real kicker was that that he turned away in disqust when I said I wasn’t carrying a concealed weapon — in a jurisdiction where it would have been illegal — without letting me use the phone!

    From my admittedly minor confrontation with armed violence, I know that there wasn’t time for reasoned thinking as we know it. Things happen very fast and adrenalin takes the mind places it wouldn’t normally go. I know I ruled out a lot of possibilities because the overarching goal was getting past the incident and coming out the other side alive — four of us — which we did.

    I tend to think that doing something “heroic” makes sense only when it looks like survival by other means is doubtful, and when the opportunity for success is acceptable. These are difficult assessments to make when you’re literally under the gun.

    Comparing the VT victims to those folks on Flight 93 is absurd on all levels, given the amount of time the airline passengers had to consider their options and the fact that they were not ducking bullets at the time. We may never know what the potential for taking out the shooter was at VT, but it’s my opinion that those who project what should have been done with no real understanding of the situation are just plain assholes.

  • Doubtful, I think that comment you wrote at #28 is really unnecessary. A lot of people write comments here all day long, and if my comments happen to be on the same post sometimes, so what. If you read Eschaton or other popular blogs, you can see what seem like 90% off topic or frivolous comments sometimes. Honestly, a lot of comments here don’t add a lot, often. I write things that can help people talk back to Republicans when CB reports on the stupid bullshit they write that all their readers are going to be mouthing off with at the dinner table or in the break room at work. Can you get off my fucking case?

    “How much you wanna bet…”

    My comment at #27 was little unlcear, actually, but what I meant was that for all we know, a liberal or a geeky type on the plane may have had an idea for how to take out the terrorists without crashing the plane, but the guys who jumped the terrorists refused to listen- would have done better if they listened to the liberal. Doubtful, it’s the conservatives who stereotypes us as cowardly or unmanly, so that’s mostly what I was responding to. Intelligence helps in wars. Dumb people probably don’t listen to a smart person’s innovations the first few times they come up in history, get killed, and then sometimes they listen and you get an innovation like the phalanx instead of single combat, which makes warfare more efficient. Anyway, the movie made a choice to portray a geeky looking type as someone who needs to be restrained so terrorists can be fought. Conservatives see us as geeks. The symbolic message seemed to be that liberals need to be silenced, not benefited from, which is obviously not the lesson of the war in Iraq.

    What the hell is “a liberal-looking type”? Are you implying that all smart people are liberal and all jocks are conservative and that smart and jock are mutually exclusive?

    Of course, I didn’t write anything like that, but it’s a fact of life that people just tend to look like types. It’s not an airtight thing you rely on all the time, but it works a little. Everyone does it.

    Doubtful, please don’t harass me with your comments anymore. Please find something else to obsess over.

  • But this awful corrosive passivity is far more pervasive, and, unlike the psycho killer, is an existential threat to a functioning society.

    So I guess we’re supposed to round up the survivors and shoot them?

    As much as this name calling bugs the shit out of me and I can’t imagine what the survivors feel, I’d like to send out a big thank you to “Team Chickenhawk” [(C) Former Dan].

    No, seriously. I’ve known for a while that these guys made the scum of the universe look like creme fraiche but thanks to their inability to keep their pie holes shut, everyone else will recognize them for the shit sucking dirt bags that they are and they won’t be able to worm their way out of it by saying they’re just commenting on the sad state of today’s Americans, education or whatever other crap they want to pretend they’re talking about.

  • How pathetic, demeaning and loud is this ridiculous commentary. It merely demonstrates Derbyshire’s and the National Review’s stupidity. Even stupid for retrospective thinking. Any good writer could write a scenario where any and all attempts to stop the mad killer would be futile no matter what. Derby doesn’t have a clue what anybody was thinking or trying or anything else yet feels it necessary to spout out such an ignorant viewpoint looking for someone to blame which such juvenile outrage.
    Rhandi Rhodes(who always sounds like she’s slapping you when she talks) has been ranting all day on Air America with how stupid everyone (but her) is for not ‘preventing’ this tragedy like there was some referee out there holding a file with all the information (she now has)about the shooter’s psychological condition and behavior and just ignoring him( as if the gun store owner were reading it when Cho walked in to buy the guns), like psych. people are incapable of fooling anyone about their motivations. If either of these two people went off the deep end there would be all kinds of speculation about why we didn’t do anything. Hindsight is always perfect. We need to be less concerned with what could or should have been and start dealing with what really is because what always happens with such horrendous events is awareness is awakened and needs to be focused. We should be proud that whatever we are doing events like the VA tragedy doesn’t happen everyday like it does in other countries right now. Sometimes we need to recognize and be grateful for all the things that haven’t happened to us…yet. Derbyshire’s outrage is an insulting fantasy raging in hindsight’s paradise. And Rhandi, even with the best of intentions and knowledge, no one likes to be browbeat in such a condescending manner. Remember the power of attraction and not promotion? And what is it we share?

  • “Doubtful, I think that comment you wrote at #28 is really unnecessary.”

    Fair enough, Swan.I think writing several comments in a row is really unnecessary.

    “Can you get off my fucking case?”

    Seriously? I wrote one comment critical of your postings. I’d hardly say I was on your case.

    All I’m asking is that you take a moment to collect all of your thoughts and make one post. It’s a little daunting to read and respond when you have so many comments in a row. Laughably, by the time I wrote my comment about your three consecutive posts you had added a fourth.

    You specifically mentioned a “liberal-looking type” which I take offense to. You claim that “it’s the conservatives who stereotypes us,” but you just did, too. You also said that jocks don’t listen to smart people and implied that smart people are liberal and jocks are conservative. All of which perpetuates stereotypes and I take offense to. You reinforce all of this again:

    “…a liberal or a geeky type on the plane may have had an idea for how to take out the terrorists without crashing the plane, but the guys who jumped the terrorists refused to listen- would have done better if they listened to the liberal.”

    “…but it’s a fact of life that people just tend to look like types. It’s not an airtight thing you rely on all the time, but it works a little. Everyone does it.”

    That, my friend, is the very definition of stereotyping. And no, not everyone does it.

    I wasn’t harassing you, I was responding to you.

  • For these people, it will always be about anger, and blame. Doesn’t matter who the anger is directed at, or who gets blamed. Doesn’t matter if there’s no rhyme or reason to the argument. It satisfies the deep-seated rage and insecurities of their audience.

    A lot of these right-wing commentators are running scared after Imus got canned. The level of hysteria seems to have jumped a notch. Check out Hannity and Limbaugh, quoted at MediaMatters, blaming Imus’s fall on Hillary, Soros and “the Democrat Party.” They’re scrambling. They’ll do anything it takes to stay on the air, even if it means blaming victims and whipping their audience into a froth over nothing.

  • These are not conservatives in the sense of Buckley or Goldwater. They are pens for hire (anyone remember Armstrong Williams, et al) who await their directives from the NRA, RNCC and every other vile, toxic organization willing to leave a few bucks on the nightstand.

    Anyone who says they know how they would handle such a situation is either a liar or full of themselves to the point of self delusion.

    The fight or flight instinct directs you to do the expediant thing. If the situation is clearly hopeless, you probably take your best shot. However, if there is a chance in hell of getting out alive by beating feet, then that would seem your best option (I’m talking about non-professionals here, not police officers, firefighters and the like).

    Seriously, I was shot twenty-five years ago when I tried to disarm a clearly out of his mind angry young man. The wise thing to do would have been to back off and alert the authorities. At least that was what the cop who accompanied me in the ambulance offered me. While he was sorry for my plight, he quickly disabused me of any further notions of false heroics.

  • Republicans just can’t realistically grasp the concept of real life causation.
    Instead of cause and effect , these guys only understand wishes, hopes and prayers.
    Of course they think they can magically suspend time and dodge bullets frozen in mid air…. Anyone who still believes in Bush’s surge will also believe they have comic book super powers.

  • Seen through the prism of the bestseller “The Secret,” the victims were all asking to be shot or at least not asking hard enough not to be shot. Which pretty much defines compassionate conservatism.

  • 0. Zero. Nada. Because when the average person hears gunfire, they run. They’re not sitting down to chat about it. They’re trying to put distance and obstacles between the gun and their body.

    Anyway, the Flight 93 people had time to sit and think about what they were going to do- they were in a room at the opposite end of the plane from the terrorists, and picked out which guys were toughest, were best to rush the Al Qaedas. Flight 93 was part of what I was talking about- crisis situations in general. It sound like in Virginia they may not have had time to think.

    Doubtful, I just think all that stuff you wrote is really rude and unnecessary. Yeah, people think black people are dumb and yeah, it makes some sense because black people do worse on standardizes tests than white people. Yeah, people think back and latinos are criminals and yeah, it makes some sense because more of those people are convicted criminals out of the numbers of their own race or ethnicity than are white people. Where it goes wrong is thinking that someone is definitely what have you because of their race or because of what they look like. If you make statements like what you wrote it keeps you naive and makes conservatives think they’re right for not taking you seriously. There’s no reason I should see someone dressed in hippy clothes and think that they’re just as likely as a random person to be into folk music and hippy stuff, and not just wearing hippy clothes as a costume in a stage production, because they’re not just as likely to be so. They’re more likely to be into hippy stuff.

    I don’t mean this all to sound confrontational or anything and I don’t want to have a flame war.

  • That punditiocracy is beyond stupid. I, too, like to dream that, when faced with a crisis, I’d do something very brave (if stupid). But, the two times when I was faced with a real-life crisis (not me, but where quick thought would have helped someone else), I literally froze, like a deer in headlights. I probably wouldn’t have had the wits to duck under the desk, never mind rush the guy.

  • I challenge those idiots to come up with one case of a private citizen (gun or not) going up against a shooter and stopping the shooter.

    The only case I know of where someone even tried, happened south of Seattle in a shopping center. A citizen (armed with a pistol) tried to stop the shooter and was in turn shot, but did live.

  • No one’s suggested inviting these guys to give us a demonstration of the heroic tactics they envisage (for others). That would be fun, watching them “jump” a “murderous misfit loner” armed with only a couple of pistols. We should ask them. Their “courage”, “manliness” and “culture of self-defense” could not possibly allow them to refuse.

  • Now Goldi, there’s an idea. Tell you what—let’s get these “Four Horsemen” (Derbyshire, Blake, Steyn, and Malkin) to line up at one end of a hallway. Make it one that’s about the same width as the hallways in VT’s Engineering building. I’ll stand 100 feet away—and I’ll only need one handgun. I won’t even use a semi-auto; I’ll settle for an old-fashioned revolver—a “six-shooter.” Let these “examples of what American courage is REALLY about” charge me, en-masse, as they suggest these students should have done on Monday morning. Then? Let us see if any of them can get within 50 feet of me.

    Too violent? Okay—we’ll make it paintballs, then—and I’ll guarantee three, well-centered face-shots before they clear the half-way mark on their little “jaunt.”

    Now, let’s see if the jaw-flapping fools want to come out and play….

  • no doubt they all have visions of Leonidas rushing chestily toward the shooter crying SPAAAATTAAAAAA!!!
    Conservatives shouldn’t have been allowed to buy tickets for that movie.

  • I doubt they were motivated by “300”, since it is pre-gun, although you have a point in that guns let every fat couch potato Republican become a Spartan (in his own mind). However, it’s true the entertainment industry has a lot to answer for. There are any number of movies in which the good guy is getting hosed down from every direction with semiautomatic fire while he takes cover behind a parking meter or something like that, and he usually gets the token bullet crease on the thigh or whatever. But whenever he pops up from cover and snaps off a single shot, a bad guy wails and falls. This suggests bad-guy marksmanship school is chronically inferior to good-guy marksmanship school, and that if you are brave and true and pure of heart, you can’t miss.

  • Does anyone other than me find it ironic that one of the victims was a 76 yr old man who died blocking the gunman and urging his students to flee. He had survived Holocaust, he’s been living in Israel (not, necessarily, the safest place on Earth) for years, and he dies on the university campus in peaceful backwater Virginia??? The Gods must have laughed themselves sick.

    BTW… You know how hospitals will often have a big “no smoking” sign at the entrance? The red circle, with a picture of a cigarette and a slash through it? Well… *Our* hospital has an almost ‘dentical sign at its entrance except, instead of a cigarette, the picture is of a gun. Welcome to small-town south-western Virginia….

  • As we all know there is only one thing wingnuts like more than blaming victims and that is playing the victim. They are forever yelling about being victims of the “liberal” media or of “liberal” professor. These disingenous complaints are little more than a clever rhetorical trick which simultaneously mocks the weak and forces them to argue against “victims”. Such sophistry can be hard to defend against, but now I’ve struck upon a strategy: Blame the Victims. The next time a wingnut tells you that conservatives are discriminated against in the academy, tell him that it’s because the conservatives in the academy are pussies. The next time some WJS or FauxNews pundit bemoans the lack of a fair shake that conservatives get on the pages of the NYTimes, yell back that it is their own fault for being intellectually decrepit. They are victims because they are weak and it’s their own damn fault. Now stop whining.

  • Blaming the victims is, of course, contemptible, but I am amazed that so many here can’t conceive of rushing the shooter. You also are getting your view from fiction. This kid was not The Terminator. I find it inconceivable that there never was a moment when he was vulnerable. I suspect there were many. Most of those present must have thought they were going to survive. Once you think you are toast if you don’t do something, you would be amazed what you can do. I was carjacked at knife point once. They were taking me to an ATM to use my credit card. I thought I was dead. Played the quivering coward(which by the way I am), waiting for an opportunity(none was guaranteed), but when it came, I dumped every cc of adrenaline I had and fought my way out of the car(i’m not strong either). Had PTSD for years from it but when I broke free for a couple hours felt more alive than ever in my life. Not bragging. I was lucky as hell. And I felt I had no choice. Of course, none of us were at VT so what do we know?

  • Michael7843853, while your situation is a great demonstration of physical courage and from a position I’ve been fortunate enough not to have been in, it’s quite different from the VT shootings. It wasn’t a couple of kids at knife point, it was a guy who’d already shot quite a few people, was clearly out of his mind (he was apparently laughing very loud during a great deal of the killing), and considering he was suicidal he also had no concern for his own life or safety.

    Not to be macabre, but try to fully imagine the scene with blood everywhere and think of the layout of a university building. Long, wide open halls so the guy can see anyone coming or going easily, and classrooms with a single door and most likely no other way out. It’s not a mugging, it’s a fucking nightmare.

  • Having had a gun pointed in my face, I can assure you that you really, honestly, are thinking one thing: “I really hope he won’t pull the trigger.”

    Yes, the thought of trying to take the gun, or wrestle the gun holder to the ground, or whatever does enter your mind. But only after the event.

    I guarantee none of the rightwing fuqtards have ever been in a similar situation, nor would any of them do anything heroic. If the would, they’d already have signed up to serve.

  • Michael7843853 wrote: “Blaming the victims is, of course, contemptible, but I am amazed that so many here can’t conceive of rushing the shooter. You also are getting your view from fiction.”

    I don’t think anyone here ‘can’t conceive’ of rushing the shooter – the reality is that most people realize that rushing the shooter is, from a survival point of view, the losing proposition.

    That view isn’t fiction: it’s the point of view of pretty much every law enforcement professional in the country. When faced with a gun, pretty much every one of them will tell you that your best bet is avoidance. Any martial arts instructor will also tell you that an unarmed man against an armed shooter is a losing proposition.

    One really huge difference (well, two – your assailants had a knife, not a gun) between your personal anecdote and the VT people is that you had time to assess the situation while you were in the car being driven to the ATM. As you said it yourself, you had time to wait for an opportune moment to fight back. The VT students were attacked with lethal force without warning. Not knowing what the situation is (how many shooters, their motivation, their weapons, their location), and having only seconds to take action to save your life, the only real course of action is to run like hell.

    You know, a bit over a week ago a conservative visitor initiated a side thread on civility by ‘challenging’ us to have civil, unprofane discourse in our comments. Then along come fuckheads like John Derbyshire, Nathaniel Blake, and John Steyn, all engaging in a bout of armchair quarterbacking so despicable that there aren’t enough swear words to treat them with the respect they deserve. Well, I can try: fuck you, you disingenuous, cowardly, hypocritical halfwits. You have demonstrated the worst behavior a human being can engage in without committing a felony. I fully believe that faced with the same circumstances that the people at VT faced, you’d be the first out the door – pushing the elderly and infirm out of your way to get there.

    If by some chance someone from VT ends up reading this thread, let me conclude by saying: nobody here could have done any better to stop this shooter. Nobody. Anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging in dangerous delusion that will likely get them killed.

  • “Put all these brave conservatives in a locked room with an armed man who wants to kill them without mercy and see how they respond. If they’re such fierce warriors why don’t they pick up a rifle and join the fight in Iraq?”

    My thoughts exactly. The comments by Steyn, Blake, Derbyshire, Malkin and the other Verbal Flatulators are not only callous, they’re almost guffaw-inducing in their utter naivete. The “resistance scenario” that Derbyshire suggests, honestly, is drawn straight from Hollywood fantasy movies like Die Hard or Arnold Schwarzenegger’s oeuvre.

    In the real world (as Arnie himself would no doubt acknowledge), you don’t have that much information or planning time.

    First of all,
    (1) Who among those poor students and professors was planning on, uh, facing a lethal threat from a deranged, Glock and Walther-toting fellow student on campus that morning? I guess if somebody in the morning classes had said, “Gee, guys and gals, you know, I wonder what would happen if some wacko in military fatigues barged into the classroom this morning and starting firing rounds at us, I’d guess we’d better go look up the number of rounds in the most commonly purchased Glocks and Walthers in the local Blacksburg gun dealerships and count the number of rounds he’s fired,”

    (2) Even if they had been able to count the rounds– an almost impossibility in the heat of the moment when you don’t know how many rounds the gun holds, nor how many shots have been fired– how could they have known when to rush Seung Hui Cho? Cho had clearly reached a level of grim mastery and almost military-like technical competency with his weapons (which is mysterious in itself), and even if one gun had been used up and was being reloaded, how could they have known that Cho would not direct the other gun at them? Cho had reloaded them quite rapidly in any case– not much time for someone on the opposite side of the classroom to charge Cho and disarm him.

    (3) When out of nowhere someone starts blasting a gun at you, WTF are you going to do other than follow your immediate instincts and get out of the damn way of the bullets? Even heavily-armed and trained American and British soldiers in Iraq and Vietnam know to duck and cover, to find shelter behind a barrier whenever insurgents attack them with small arms fire– are they cowards too for not bum-rushing their guerrilla adversaries?

    Methinks that Derbyshire, Blake, Malkin, Steyn et al. need a little, uh, “education” in what real battle entails.

    Let’s put out a petition to draft them immediately for duty in Iraq’s Sunni Triangle. Without body armor. And with a camera to record them when they run away and cower from an Iraqi insurgent ambush like the tough-talking little pansies they almost certainly are.

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