Sunday Discussion Group

April 22, 2007

About a week ago, Kevin Drum had a post about comparisons between health care in the U.S. and other major world powers. He noted a lazy policy argument that immediately sends up red flags for him.

[H]ere’s a handy rule of thumb: any time a healthcare article starts nattering on about hip replacement waiting times in Canada, just stop reading. The authors are cherry picking so egregiously it’s a wonder their fingers haven’t fallen off.

I call these “conversation enders.” The moment you see them, you know that writer/speaker is either clueless or intellectually dishonest. Either way, the moment you hear a “conversation ender,” you pretty much stop listening to everything else the person has to say. “If they’re willing to say that,” the voice in your head tells you, “then the rest is probably nonsense.”

It’s a non-traditional Sunday Discussion Group topic, but what are your “conversation enders”? I have a handful:

* “Tax cuts are fiscally responsible because they pay for themselves.”

* “MoveOn.org did an ad comparing Bush to Hitler.”

* “Evolution is just a theory.”

* “Hillary Clinton’s health care plan in 1993 was socialized medicine.”

* “The media isn’t reporting the good news in Iraq.”

* “Global warming can’t be real because it’s cold outside.”

The moment I hear any of these — and, regrettably, I hear them quite a bit — I immediately know that I’m not listening to a person who deserves to be taken seriously.

Does everyone have “conversation enders”? What are some of yours?

Any time the word “liberal” is used by a non-liberal.

  • FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor and let it happen because he wanted an excuse to get in the war.

  • This is a recent one, so not a classic of the genre. On the Bill Maher show this weekend, John O’ Sullivan of the National Review (I think), trotted this out:

    “There is no underlying scandal to the US Attorney firings. Nothing illegal happened, so it is a cover-up of nothing.”

    This was pretty stunning to me. If I heard someone say that, I wouldn’t be able to respond with anything other than: “Well, there’s no way you can possibly believe that, so … who’s signing your checks, dude?”

    This hardly needs saying, but here it is anyway. Making the federal Justice Department an arm of a political party – not a good idea. And to anyone who says, “what’s the big deal,” remind them that the Dems are likely to control all three branches as of 2009. Then ask ’em how they feel.

  • “Oswald didn’t shoot Kennedy.”

    “The moon landings were faked.”

    “Space aliens landed in Roswell, NM and the government has the bodies in storage.”

    “Bush really won Florida in 2000.”

  • Any tax cut for the very rich benefits us all.

    Since we live in a free market , any price is legitimate.

    Anyone who is not prosperous deserves to be so.

    People who are, or at least claim to be , religious are morally superior.

    Money is free speech.

    War is the only true form of diplomacy.

  • “If you Liberals were in charge during WW2, Hitler would still be alive.”

    I’ve heard this one a few times and it always makes me laugh. It just tells me that someone hasn’t read their history outside of an Ambrose book if that. Who was the US prez during most of WW2? FDR. FDR was the Repub boogey man. The ones the ultra rich eelights from the 30s/40s always use to scare the crap out of their young (“If you don’t behave, that no good commie FDR will come and take away the wealth you never earned and give it to some poor people!”)

    “So and so is a good Christian.”

    That’s just code for: he/she/it’s a major cross wearing asshole who is about as Christian as a punch to the nads.

  • Government is inherently incompetent and corrupt.

    True altruism is a myth perpetrated by Stalinists.

    .

  • “Why should I give up any of my hard earned money to the government.”

    These boobs are convinced that wealth is created in a vacuum, and that they actually earned all of it on their own, much of my own family included. If we all started from the same place with the same advantages, maybe, but we don’t.

    Sadly, compassion seems to be in ever shorter supply these days. Specially amongst those that have the most.

  • Oh where to begin? Here are a few faves.

    “The World Trade Centers were blown up by the owner for the insurance.” (Also “Building 7 was blown up by the government.”)

    “The Pentagon was hit by a missle.”

    Any statement by a so-called Christian that demonstrates ignorance of the Bible.

    “All scientists are athiests.”

    Any praise of the current pResident or mAdministration, including “He’s not that bad.”

    “We can’t do anything about crimes committed with guns because blah, blah, criminals, moo, moo quack.”

    “[Fill in any minority] are ruining this country.”*

    “Don’t get me wrong, I have a [fill in any minority] friend but…”*

    “The Jews run everything.”*

    A personal one: “Oh, you’re from America?”/”Oh, you speak English!”/”What are your parents?”

    I guess I’m sort of hard to talk to. Heh.

    tAiO

    *These three are no so much conversation stoppers as altercation starters.

  • All politicians are corrupt. This usually comes from a Republican to whom one has just pointed out the corruption of a fellow Republican.

  • A bumper with both an “America: love it or leave it” and a Confederate flag is the bumper equivalent of a conversation ender. It shows an inability to connect the dots required for logical thought.

    Another: “What are you, a tree hugger?”

    Another: I was sitting under a large slab of paleo-reef in the science building at the university I went to, and a guy walked up and said: “You know, that rock can’t be more than 6000 years old.”

    However, I will utterly disagree with Steve on his central theme: “The moment you see them, you know that writer/speaker is either clueless or intellectually dishonest. Either way, the moment you hear a “conversation ender,” you pretty much stop listening to everything else the person has to say.”

    While that may be true most of the time, I have had any number of conversations with people who put out a “conversation ender” that turned out quite well. One that lasted more than an hour concerned global warming, with a guy who got literally all of his information from RW talk radio, ended with him rethinking his entire frame of reference. I’ll admit that he was probably the exception, but the reality was his “conversation ender” was simply a reflection of what he had been repeatedly told. When presented with actual information from someone who understood the subject he was persuadable.

    Another example, 35 years ago: my long-time landlord and I were having a conversation, and he said he didn’t believe in evolution. He was a good Baptist, and once a year they had the travelling “evolution is bullshit” preacher come in and talk. I responded that there is a vast mountain of evidence for evolution, and described a bit of that. And he said, he didn’t know any of that. that it made sense when presented that way. He had been told for years that it was just bullshit.

    So, that is a long way of saying that you should not accept conversation enders, ever. If you approach every conversation with a willingness to present actual relevant facts, reasonably and calmly, and are willing to press a dialogue, you can be surprised at the outcome.

    But the fundy and his 6000 year old rock was truly a lost cause.

  • The private sector is always better than the public sector or any of the other libertarian twaddle.

  • I avoid the concept of having “conversation enders,” if for nothing else than to refuse someone the opportunity to effectively cut off a discussion. If, for example, I cite the similarities between Bush and Hitler, and someone begins waving Godwin’s Law around as if they were swatting at a swarm of gnats, I can only wonder—why does this terminate the discussion? There is, you know, a little thing called “Quirk’s Exception” to Godwin—and the hackministration of George W. Bush “fits to a T” as a perfect example of that anomaly.

    Let’s take another one—the one about “not showing the good news in Iraq.” Rather than allow the dimwits in DC to cut off the conversation, why not challenge them to provide evidence of this so-called “good news”—and then afford the opposition (that would be us—the good guys in this scenario) the chance to verify. After all, it was the deity of the Republicans—the Great ReaganGod—who coined the phrase “trust, but verify.”

    Ooh! Ooh! here’s another one—the “so-and-so-is-a-good-Christian.” I’ve yet to meet the “good Christian” who can stand the test of “as ye have done to the least, so ye have done unto me.” Guess what, you little fundie cockroaches? There IS no such thing as “a good Christian.” I’ve seen half-witted teenagers with their nails painted black, wearing head-to-toe black, and dragging thanksgiving-turkey-platter-sized pentacles along the sidewalk by their spike-collared necks who are better at walking the path of the Nazarene Carpenter than any televangelist, religious radio host, or fundie rabblerouser on the entire freaking planet. They know more about living the word of Christ than their parents ever did—and they’ve never even opened a Bible. Don’t let these better-than-thou buffoons play this game; throw it back at them, and demand that their “faith” needs to be about more than shielding a blasted lie.

    The point is—if you let these nitwits have the last word, then the conversation ends with their final comment…and anyone privy to that conversation, either in person or via an after-the-fact venue such as the MSM—will believe that “the conversation-ender” is spouting the better side of the issue. And THAT is how this country got so screwed up in the first place. THAT is how we got, as my son would say of the man, “the dummy in the WH….”

  • “I’m a Republican. . .”

    At this point, anyone who still defends Bush, the war, or the Rethuglican party as currently coopted by the theocrats have consumed too much kool aid for rational discussion.

  • All great conversation stoppers, but for me there are 2 words that not only stop a conversation, but invite a bit of parting ridicule:
    Liberal media
    There is no line to cross in questioning the moron’s intelligence who utters that phrase. Once I’ve let them know that, they’re not usually interested in talking with me either. 🙂

  • I used to be a Democrat…

    They all do it…

    And anyone who tells me anything about able-bodied, adult men on ‘welfare’, because it pays better than work. I still can’t figure out what program they’re talking about.

  • Men saying anything at all about abortion.

    If you want to see the GOP at its worst, look at the picture of all those rich and powerful overweight white bastards grinning and drooling as they make it much more dangerous for a woman to choose to undergo intact dilation and extraction. The creepy five Roman Catholics on the Court have, temporarily, imposed their religious beliefs on the rest of us, but Bush Crime Family gave those ideological zealots the Gonzales v. Carhart case in the first place.

  • There were too WMDs in Iraq! Saddam shipped them off to Syria before the war! Or whatever version of that that’s currently going around.

  • #18 Davis X.Machina

    They all do it…


    I view that phrase as one step from surrender. It’s the last possible line of defense and is easily knocked down. The reply is, “But, he got caught!”

  • “Clinton had three chances to get Osama Bin Laden, and let him get away.”

    “The Scooter Libby verdict is a shame. He should’ve never been prosecuted, because there was no underlying crime.”

  • *There was a well-known connection between Al-Qaeda and Iraq.

    *The liberal media…..

    *Democrats have also been associated with Jack Abramoff.

    *We need to repeal the estate tax.

    *Clinton fired all 93 of the State Attorneys General.

    *If you aren’t doing anything wrong, you should not worry about government wiretapping.

    *Acting on the belief of Iraq’s WMDs was beause of a failure of intelligence.

    *Since no one was found guilty leaking the identity of an undercover CIA operative, the Libby trial represents the epitome of special prosecutor overreach.

    *We are in Iraq because 3000 Americans perished on 9/11.

    *No one could have anticipated breach of the levees.

    *We should just turn it into a glass parking lot.

    *Emails under the Republican National Committee domain are under executive privelege.

    *The 2004 elections gave President Bush a mandate.

    *Democrats do not support the troops.

    *Congress has no power to limit the actions of the Commander in Chief.

    I can’t help myself.

  • The words ” global warming hoax”, soon followed by the words “intelligent design” and culminating in the word “rapture”… are all signs that I’m talking to a cerebral cortex that has been disconnected.

  • From the libertarian side: Any sentence that contains the words “government” and “steal”; “government schools” meaning “public schools”; “gun grabbers”; any reference to Ayn Rand.

    From the social conservative side: “Why isn’t there a White Congressional Caucus?”; any variation on children being prevented from praying in schools; “Clinton broke the military”.

  • Women don’t want to work in science.

    (Also substitute for science the word math, computers, business, newsrooms, etc.)

  • * “Let me quote you a verse in the Bible …”

    Taking snippets of 2000-3000 year-old verse out of is context for political purposes is always the kiss of death.

    * “Republicans are for small government and limited taxes and the Democrats are big government, tax and spend liberals.”

    Bullsh*t. Repubs cannot even make the slightest claim of fiscal responsibility, unless that means they are paying close attention to their personal fortunes by munipulating government to improve it. And this scap about big vs. small government is textbook relativism — bigger or smaller than what. Government should be the size necessary to competently fulfill its duties to its citizens. BTW, big spending Repubs who don’t raise or who cut taxes and really only deferring the tax payments to someone else.

    * Excusing any Bush wrongdoing with “Well, in the Clinton White House …”

    * Any story that can be linked back to Drudge.

    * “George Bush is a likeable, honest man.” – Makes my skin crawl.

    * “Karl Rove is a political genius.” – Look where his party is now.

    * “Winning in Iraq.” – This is not a battle for us to win, it is a disaster that Iraq needs to escape the grasp of. The Iraqis need to win not us.

    * Republicans as victims of anything.

    … and this is before the first cup of coffee …

  • Anytime the phrase “Politically Incorrect’ is used non-ironically

    “Rush says…”

  • Right to life

    If they really believed what they’re saying, they’d be pushing for intervention in Darfur, feeding the world’s hungry, etc… but no, they’re talking about a private decision between a woman and her doctor.

  • “We’ve only got one life … ”

    “Where do you come from?” [..Where I was. No? .. My father’s testicles. ? — I’ve used that one. The guy never said another word!]

    “Where do you live?” [.. Where I’m not dead ?]

    “Anything you say may be taken down and used in evidence against you.. ” [.. Trousers ?]

    “It’s not my fault.” “Why me?” “Children are innocent.” “It was only luck.” “It was an accident.” “Nobody should have to die so young.” “It’s nothing to do with me.” set up warning signals.

    “There was no conspiracy behind the assassination of Kennedy.” “We need better roads.” “Animals don’t have souls.” “Astrology is superstition.” would be conversation instigators — I could never let anything like these pass without some attempt at correction.

    I don’t encounter conversation stoppers very often now. I’ve managed to extricate myself from intercourse with such kinds of people. I have to come to TCR to get my fill of controversy.

  • OT,

    Check out this new post I wrote which is a reorganization of some comments I left the other day, but if you recognize it, it has a lot of new content and I added to it this morning, so defeinitely check it out.

  • Terraformer’s list has my current fav — Clinton and the 93 fired US attorneys. I saw the same Real Time broadcast as Lame Man and was delighted/appalled to hear the two GOP shills come out with such a classic talking point. The woman of the pair (forget her name, but she’s a former Frist speechwriter) even used the “serve at the pleasure of the president” trope.

  • How about the one we’ll be no doubt hearing a lot of in the days to come:
    “I’ve done nothing improper.” -Kevo

  • “Scientists (preferably doctors) in America have found out, that…”

    In Germany frequently used, to kill any discussion with respect to children’s helath and/or behaviour. My mom-in-law’s favourite.

  • Along the lines of #’s 17 and 25

    Fox is actually “fair and balanced.”
    or more commonly heard.
    “CNN is liberal.”

    I’ve heard an astonishing number of people set up the false dichotomy of Fox as conservative and CNN as liberal. Shocking really.

  • On T:

    Ha, ha. I probably don’t have a lot of the same reaction to these as you do, CB. But just as far as dummy things conservatives say-

    I had a Civil Rights class in which different groups of student did presetations on hate crimes against different ethnic groups. When the group that did Jewish people did their presentation, they claimed that antisemitism was not associated with any political ideology, as far as left-wing versus right-wing, and that there is left-wing anti-semitism. To my regret and shame, I didn’t say anything about this, but I was just tired of always being the one guy who spoke for the left wing in the class. They didn’t give any substantiation or examples of the supposed left-wing antisemitism, but just moved on to talk about something else.

    So any time someone claims there is left-wing anti-semitism or that anyone who criticizes Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is anti-semitic. I’m not even someone who pays attention a lot to Israel but I hate this any time I hear it because I know it’s not true and it’s a really bad smear.

  • I saw many of my favorites in the above comments, but I didn’t see this one:

    “If government would just get off their backs, businesses would do the right thing because it’s good business”

  • You have to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and savior to be saved as a Christian- this usually means, as I understand it, that you have to go through the Protestant formality of tearily proclaiming in front of a bunch of Protestants that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and savior, and otherwise, you’r never a real Christian.

    It’s really offensive and idiotic.

  • Before I write these, I just want to remind everyone who reads this that these are not my own points of view & to check out the topic of the post:

    “All whites were made by God from clay, and all racial minorities are mud people made from mud by God.”

    ‘Authoritarian rule by a king or a dictator would be better than having a congress because it’s more efficient and one person provides the one right answer.”

    I’m not sure these would make me stop paying attention if I heard them, and I’ve never actually heard anyone say these, but if I did I’d know they were crazy.

  • Goldilocks, good list you have there, but to ME, the one conversation ender I have is when someone starts talking about a “Kennedy assassination conspiracy”.

    Because I believe that there was no conspiracy; Oswald just got three lucky shots off. The reason I don’t believe in a conspiracy is that NO ONE in this country can keep his/her mouth shut. The truth would have outed years ago, if there was a conspiracy.

    I don’t deny that Kennedy was hated by the Cubans, the CIA, the FBI, the Russians, Texas oilmen, the Mafia, etc, etc. But hate does not nessesarily translate into action, and the moment you have two people in a conspiracy, that means even more “talking”.

    Then, to transpose it to an Oliver Stone-sized conspiracy where everyone from bagmen in the Mafia to Johnson and a gay guy from NOLA were involved – well, if you can believe they can keep their god-damn mouths shut over one of the biggest stories in US history, you’re doing better than I am!

    I was 12 years old back in 1963 and a fairly aware – newswise – for a 12 year old, and I NEVER saw a conspiracy at work.
    Jack Ruby was working on his own, too.

    Oh, well, that’s just me.

  • Pretty much everyone hit everything, but for me the biggie is “Liberals never contributed anything to this country” – which brings me to a boil as I think of all my liberal ancestors going back to the one who was a member of the first community of Europeans anywhere (and were liberals) to ban the ownership of slaves in their community as a condition of membership. Yeah, right, Liberals have done nothing for this country – other than found it and save it three times (twice in war, another time economically in the Depression).

    These nowadays will still get an argument from me:

    “Overpopulation is a myth.”

    “Global warming is natural”

    “The world is only 6,000 years old and all that evidence you point at is just stuf God put there as a test of our faith”

    “animals don’t have souls”

  • Satan came to VA Tech. Satan took over his soul.. Take back the country for Christ. I like Bush.

  • wvng’s comment at 12 is interesting, but when you really want to convince somebody of something, a good way to get under your skin is for the person to pretend they’re convinced by you. Not something you’re going to encounter all the time, but- for people close to power, in this day and age- whenever someone gives you a reason to believe in a right-winger’s good will, there’s always another reason not to.

  • “Homosexuality is a choice…”

    “The sun is warning up the solar system because Mars is having global warming too!” “Al Gore doesn’t talk about that!” LOL

    “Marriage is a holy thing between a man and a woman…”

    “I’m a Christian and that makes me somehow better then you because you’re not..”

    I could go on.. I hear these at lunch all the time..

  • Aren’t phrases that are just plain wierd such as, “an optimistic rug” or “chicken plucking factories” also conversation stoppers? (Then almost every word that leaves Bush’s lips should qualify.)

  • #43 that’s a good one. I like:

    “If it is good for the economy, it’s good for us.”

    For me it sounds like “bend over and accept what’s coming”, but people here love that phrase.

  • Most people who go around repeating stuff like this do so because they have a limited command of the facts — although they may still be intellectually dishonest, the two are not mutually exclusive. I spent about a year haunting a semi-right-wing republican blog just to get a glimpse into the mind of the sort of person who goes around calling themself a “conservative” these days. That’s obviously the kind of place where you encounter a lot of right wing talking points and I found you can often shut someone down with a single sentence when they start spouting this stuff. This can often be in the form of a question rather than a head-on rebuttal. You don’t necessarily have to have a ready answer to every ridiculous thing some idiot says. All you need in many cases is an active BS detector.

    Granted some people will invariably resort to personal attacks and other logical fallacies when they can’t confront your arguments directly — and they can rarely confront your arguments directly. But just sitting back and ticking off all their various logical fallacies as they come can drive people absolutely nuts, which can be kind of fun. It obviously help to read up a little on logical fallacies and how to confront them if you want to play that game. There’s a lot of useful material on the web.

    Anyway I will concede that you will rarely change the mind of a real right winger. They tend to just have too many barriers to reason. (If they didn’t, they’d already be liberals, right?) I mainly do it for the benefit of anyone else who may be listening, or sometimes if I’m just up for a fight. But I agree that if it’s just you and them, you might as well not waste your time. Never rassle with a pig, you just get all muddy and the pig loves it.

  • To make #49 more clear-

    When A really wants to convince people of something, a good way for B to get under A’s skin- to win A’s trust without having to do anything genuine to earn the trust- is for B to pretend she’s convinced by A.

  • “Jet fuel burns at too low a temperature to melt steel.”

    “You might disagree with its politics, but you have to admit that the acting in “300” was excellent!”

  • Ever since they took prayer out of schools, the crime rate has gone up, VD rates have gone up, the divorce rate has gone up, the suicide rate has gone up, etc.

  • it was god’s will…
    god works in mysterious ways…
    have you accepted jesus christ as your personal lord and savior?

  • “Marriage is between a man and a woman, as God intended.”

    “If we allow gays to marry, then we’ll have to let people marry their pets.”

    Anything about “The sanctity of marriage…”

  • Well, since I live in the West and slept late this morning, I’m late joining here. I’m really surprised no one has mentioned this one yet:

    Raising the minimum wage will hurt poor people/cause a recession/drive small businesses into bankruptcy.

  • Lots of my favorites have already been mentioned, but I don’t think I’ve seen this one yet: “Those people in New Orleans should have just left with everyone else.”

  • Ooo, I just thought of another, related to the one that CB cited to start the discussion:

    “Our system of health care is the best in the world.”

  • * – “We’re turning a corner”
    * – Any talk about the problem always being caused by “elites,” whether Democratic, Hollywood, northeast academic, etc.
    * – “We need to listen to the generals on the ground.”
    * – Anytime George Bush feels compelled to explain his job to the public. I.e. – “It’s hard work,” “I’m the Decider,” “I need lots of sleep to make those crisp decisions the public expects of me,” etc.
    * – Anytime a right winger dismisses any controversy as irrational liberal anger
    * – “The Democrats just need to get over it,” whether it’s about the 2000 election or past Republican abuses of power.
    * – Judging our actions by international civilized norms as somehow being “anti-American.”
    * – “We the world’s sole remaining superpower and we can do water we want,’ or neoconism in a nutshell.
    * – Anything where “family values” is mentioned. Maybe the most meaningless phrase of all time.
    * – “God is punishing America for _______ by letting _______ happen.” Or the curse of the Fred Phelps psychos.
    * – “Axis of Evil”
    * – “Americans won’t do these jobs.” Maybe not at those pitifully low and unliveable wages.
    * – “The terrorists in Guantanamo” who are so guilty only a handful have ever been charged with anything.
    * – “Abu Ghraib was a few rogue soldiers.”

    … Finally had some coffee. Good guys everyone. It’s amazing to see all the stupidity from the other side heaped up in a big pile. And to see the Sisyphean task required to roll the truth up and over it.

  • “freedom loving”, “democratic” and “spiritual”
    (These bastards are contaminating some of my favorite words).

  • Every time I hear the phrase “homosexual agenda” I think of the Dead Milkmen song “Stuart” and start giggling.

    But I know what’s really going on, Stuart. I know it’s the queers.
    They’re in it with the aliens. They’re building landing strips for gay
    Martians. I swear to God.

  • to 49 and 55, while I agree with you to a point, it is a huge mistake to think all the conservatives are lost to the rational world. Sometimes it just takes one outrageous bump to make them reassess. No better examples than ex-winger John Cole at Balloon Juice (http://www.balloon-juice.com/), or my father-in-law. My father-in-law was a died in the wool, fire breathing conservative. Also a very well educated professional scientist. Reagan was a god, Clinton was unmentionable. Then along came Bush II. Everthing about W just set his teeth on edge. He saw clearly through all of his bullshit. To the point that he reassessed Clinton and Reagan by 180 degrees.

    A lot of bright wingers (seemingly a contradiction in terms, I know) live entirely in their own world, limiting their interactions to people of the same ilk (see John Cole). Many literally can’t imagine a different way of thinking, because it is all they hear. The guy I talked to in #12 about global warming was only capable of considering the concept through the Limbaugh/Savage lens. My wife and I gave him a new frame, specifically as regards the melting of continental ice masses on Greenland and Antarctica. Limbaugh talks about that by saying that an ice cube in a glass of water melts the water doesn’t rise, so having the Greenland and Antarctic ice melt is the same thing. The guy didn’t understand that Antartica was a continent. He didn’t understand the difference between ice melting on land and ice melting in the water. When we were done talking, he did. Simple as that.

    Everyone here who is saying it is a waste of time trying to have these discussions is caving in. #15 (Steve) was dead-on: “I avoid the concept of having “conversation enders,” if for nothing else than to refuse someone the opportunity to effectively cut off a discussion.”

    We have the facts on our side. If we can marshall them effectively and clamly – and avoid a lot of counterproductive shouting matches – we can change minds. Ask John Cole. Ask my fater-in-law.

  • The other conservation stopper on global warming is when, after pointing out that this is the consensus of scientific thought, the response turns to claiming this is meaningless because science is often wrong.

    The Iraq war provides for many conversation enders, such as that Iraq threatened us with WMD, that Saddam was connected to 9/11, or that Bush’s actions will help spread democracy.

    Yet another consersation stopper is quoting the claims of the Swift Boat Liars.

  • The “This little piggy argument”, “If we don’t fight them over there, they will follow us home”.

    “I don’t recall”

    “I don’t recall” etc, etc

  • “Clinton-Gore recession”

    “Kerry insulted the troops”

    “If Democrats are against the war, then they should de-fund the war”

    “nanny state”

    “The War against Christmas/Easter”

    “The White House wasn’t responsible for the ‘Mission Accomplished’ banner”

    “The tax cuts are working”

    “We never here about the positive work going on in Iraq”

    “Don Imus got fired for saying something Snoop Dog says all the time”

    “The Islamofascists….”

  • Ran across kind of a nice little round-up of some of the most common logical fallacies used to attack evolution/defend creationism (but of course equally applicable to ideological talking points for many other topics and issues). It’s mercifully short and includes a practical guide on how to spot them and how to refute them.

    http://daltonator.net/durandal/creationism/fallacies.shtml

  • “Democrat Party”

    “‘Atlas Shrugged’ changed the way I look at the world”

    “Real America/Heartland”

    “Neville Chamberlain” in reference to any American elected official

    “Activist Judges”

    “Family Values”

  • Actually, it would be nice to have the discussion move towards conversation enders to shut the blather of wing nuts. Bumper sticker slogan thinking shouldn’t be their sole turf. How about:

    The right wing—always wrong
    and proud of it

    Conservatives are dumb shills for the rich

    Conservative values
    simple solutions for simple minds

    I’m not good at this, any suggestions?

  • Anyone mindlessley and repeatedly using a right wing talking point of the day

    “cut and run”
    “Slow bleed”
    “flip flop”
    “surge”
    “support the troops”

  • Many thanks to Eric @ 70. Dobson and the other cretins who shriek about the Rainbow Menace do sound a lot like Stuart’s burrow owl hoarding, trailer dwelling, gibbersh spewing friend.

    It also brings up three more of my conversation stoppers:

    “Violence/Sex/Bad language in music is responsible for the moral degredation of today’s youth.”

    Yep. There was no crime before the advent of rock n’ roll.

    Also (no offense intended to parents!)

    “This group/song/book should be banned because children might see/hear it.”

    “We need more controls on the internet to protect the children.”

    I’ve found that if someone invokes the need to protect children to support an argument for censorship you can either agree or you can walk the hell away. Disagreement will lead to accusations that you want kids to look at porn and have sex and from there to behaviour that would upset Miss Manners.

    Oh, and since I’m thinking of Beelzebubba:

    “The police aren’t equipped/shouldn’t have to settle domestic disputes.”

    Sorry.

  • “You can’t even pray anymore in the public schools!”

    “Governor Casey was not allowed to speak at the 1992 Democratic Convention because he was pro-life.”

    On gays and lesbians: “They want your children!”

  • Wait period at New England Baptist for a hip? 5 months.
    Wait period at UMass Memorial? 3 months.
    This as of August 2006, and my hip was done on Dec 28 2006.

    This in Massachusetts, arguably the most comprehensive medical community in the country. So when I hear the canard about waiting times I don’t blanch, I call bullshit and attack.

  • A lockerroom statement the other day:

    “Michele Malkin really gave it to that black guy the other night on O’Reilly!”

    Almost came to blows over that one….never mind ending the conversation.

  • Actually I tend to get into arguments…or maybe ( loud) discussions… when people say these things…but the one I argue-yell-discus about the most is the welfare mothers having more kids to get more money….Who could possibly believe that?

  • There’s always the heard less-often-than-previously Rushism: feminazi.

    “Supporting the trrops” means continuing the war.

    And in the Vermont House (by Speaker Gaye Symington): We have more important things to do than impeach the president, and variations: it’s not our job to debate an impeachment resolution.

    To any woman refusing to simper, nod, and be walked over, talked over, and taken for granted: you feminists (or lesbians) are just man-haters.

    To anyone criticizing the Patriot Act or anything about U.S. policy in Iraq: “Why do you liberals hate America?”

  • For me, it’s being told that if I oppose any foreign policy move whatsoever by the Bush administration, it means I must have “forgotten 9/11.” I’ve banned commenters on my blog just for saying that. I was in Manhattan on 9/11. I got up and went to work on 9/12. Fuck you if you think I oppose the war because I’ve “forgotten.”

  • What I find surprising is how many of folks ‘conversation stoppers’ do not strike me as self evident. For example, CB, I hate to point this out but Evolution *is* “just a theory”.

    Our modern understanding of evolution has evolved significantly from Darwin, yet there are still things which will bring scientists to blows (so just what did cause the Cambria explosion…) There is a preponderance of evidence that some type of natural selection does occur, but once we start elevating theories beyond theory stature, we have dogma, which defeats the whole point.

    I wish I had a $1 for every time someone has quoted “God does not play dice” and attributed it to Einstein. They then stare at you like you have lobsters climbing out your ears when you point out that Einstein won the Nobel prize for his work on quantum physics, not relativity, and that his central argument, summed up nicely by Bell’s equation, was specifically tested at CERN nearly 20 years ago. But what about Newton? They cry, you can’t break his laws! Well, that was part of what Einstein did. Newton called the “laws” because, well, he was brilliant and an A-1 prick…

    Similiarly, while I love the line in BULL DURHAM (irronically given by the same actor who would play Judge Garrison in Stone’s JFK), it is hard to read the Warren report, read, say, RUSH TO JUDGEMENT, which is essentially a defense brief, wade through the HSCA report and supporting technical brief and not think that anyone, and I mean anyone, who says that they know who, exactly, killed JFK and how, is talking out their butt.

    Seriously, we know with reasonable certaintly that JFK and Oswald are dead, but beyond that, it is all conjecture. Bottom line, virtually all the evidence is tainted and mishandled, much went missing. Consider it just another cluster F with Arlen Spectre and Gerald Ford both involved.

    I could go on and on, but I guess my only point is that one reason I am a progressive is that I am cursed with seeing ‘shades of gray’. If everything was black-and-white to me, I’d be a Rethuglican – it is probably more profitable.

    -jjf

  • “George W. Bush showed real leadership after 9/11.”
    -or-
    “Do you really think Al Gore could have led this country as well as George W. Bush after 9/11?”

    -and-

    “Al Gore said he invented the Internet.”
    “I think Al Gore invented global warming.”
    “Slick Willie.”
    “If students were allowed to carry concealed weapons, no one would have died at Virginia Tech.
    “We need prayer in schools.”
    “I have one of those silver fish thingies on my car.”
    “We’re a Christian house-cleaning company.” Well, it stopped one conversation.

  • Wow … some good ones here. But since our intranet is down here at work …

    “[Insert group here] is liberal … ”
    That one is used by rightards to discount any information that doesn’t agree with their narrow world view.

    “Jesus said homosexuality is a sin … ”
    A co-worker — who attended seminary, no less — pulled this gem out the other day. I told him to show me where. He has yet to do so.

    “Carl Peterson isn’t that bad at drafting … ”
    With the NFL draft in 6 days, I’m waiting to hear/read some dumbass say/type this after the Chiefs pick some useless, piece of crap defensive tackle in the first round who could’ve been had in the seventh round. Trust me … it’ll happen … and my head will implode.

  • A late footnote apropos phoebes #46 and “Kennedy assassination conspiracy” : There was always something both in the Warren Commission Report and the Oliver Stone effort that was not looked at which was the removal of the bullet-proof shield that normally covered the president’s car. It was removed before the start of the cavalcade. Why was that and who authorized it? One of, for me, a lot of niggling little details that throw doubt on the lone gunman theory. Personally, I think Stone did a pretty good, and sincere, job of identifying most of the inconsistencies in the official conclusion. Probably it doesn’t matter now, but it still leaves a tarnished and unsatisfactory impression in my mind.

  • “Sound science” (used to ‘refute’ global warming, evolution, earth revolving around sun etc.)

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