Gen. Pace condemns gays, warns Senate about ‘God’s law’

In recent years, Americans attitudes about gays in the military have changed considerably. A majority of the public, like a majority of those in uniform, believe gays should not be thrown out of the Armed Forces, simply on the basis of sexual orientation. Every Democratic presidential candidate supports scrapping “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” and no one seems to find their position particularly controversial.

And yet, we occasionally get stark reminders about the mentality of those who insist that discrimination is justified.

Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, caused a stir at a Senate hearing Wednesday when he repeated his view that gay sex is immoral and should not be condoned by the military. […]

“Are there wonderful Americans who happen to be homosexual serving in the military? Yes,” he told the Senate Appropriations Committee during a hearing focused on the Pentagon’s 2008 war spending request.

“We need to be very precise then, about what I said wearing my stars and being very conscious of it,” he added. “And that is, very simply, that we should respect those who want to serve the nation but not through the law of the land, condone activity that, in my upbringing, is counter to God’s law.”

He added his belief that “sex, other than between man and a woman inside the bonds of marriage, is a sin.”

Now, I’m not entirely clear on whether Americans are still allowed to criticize generals who make misguided pronouncements, but Pace’s comments are hard to defend. The notion that we, as a secular nation that honors the separation of church and state, would base military policy based on a general’s interpretation of “God’s law” is a recipe for disaster.

That said, and with the acknowledgement that Pace’s bizarre perspective is misguided, the outgoing Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff did leave the door slightly ajar on DADT.

Maybe I’m reading too much between the lines here, but Pace conceded that gays are already serving in the military — a fact he didn’t seem too terribly concerned about. Does Pace believe the existing DADT policy should remain inviolate? Surprisingly enough, no.

The hearing resumed about five minutes later in which Pace said he would be supportive of efforts to revisit the Pentagon’s policy so long as it didn’t violate his belief that sex should be restricted to a married heterosexual couple.

“I would be very willing and able and supportive” to changes to the policy “to continue to allow the homosexual community to contribute to the nation without condoning what I believe to be activity — whether it to be heterosexual or homosexual — that in my upbringing is not right,” Pace said.

It’s subtle, but that’s actually a shift in policy. Pace is basically saying gays should be allowed to serve, as long as they don’t have sex. Existing policy says gays can serve, just so long as they stay in the closet. Pace, oddly enough, seems to arguing for a slightly more progressive policy.

Pace is effectively arguing that the military should have a policy based on behavior, not sexual orientation. The U.S., under this approach, wouldn’t have to automatically discharge openly-gay soldiers.

Progress?

Look, most of us know that you can have sex in a closet and would rather do that than have no sex at all. This is like saying men can work in a harem as long as they are castrated. No progress, just shifting punishments.

  • Pace said he would be supportive of efforts to revisit the Pentagon’s policy so long as it didn’t violate his belief that sex should be restricted to a married heterosexual couple.

    I haven’t been following this issue, but has anyone asked Pace whether the military should dismiss soldiers who have had sex outside of marriage? I think any reasonable person (though Pace doesn’t sound reasonable in this area) should say, “My personal religious belief is that X is wrong, but my personal religious beliefs have no bearing on military policies.”

  • There is no place for personal morals in any organization that purports to be part of a secular nation. Numerous instances exist in the military regarding those who ‘did tell’ w.r.t. DADT and whose removal from service has affected its ability to perform to high levels (e.g., those fluent in Middle Eastern languages). This has got to stop.

    Much like an OB-GYN who has moral problems in counseling about or in performing abortions, or pharmacists who have moral problems in dispensing ‘morning after’ pills, anyone who has issues with the law of the land as applied to their particular discipline should not be in that particular discipline.

  • Now, I’m not entirely clear on whether Americans are still allowed to criticize generals who make misguided pronouncements…

    CB, yes they are. See the First Amendment to the Constitution.

    What other “activity” should we not “condone” “through the law of land” according to High Commander Pace? How about failing to appear for Congressional subpoenas? We “condone” that “through the law of the land.” How about unconstitutional, “undeclared” wars?

  • ***we should…not through the law of the land, condone activity that, in my upbringing, is counter to God’s law.***
    ————————-General Peter Pace

    Hey Peter—ever hear of the Ten Commandments? How about that thing about “THOU SHALT NOT KILL?!?” You freaking blood-chugging hypocrite you!

    Oh, dear —I guess he’s a general—so I’m gonna have my citizenship threatened by that stupid rampstrike fellow from Arizona because I dared to question a statement by some guy with stars on his collar.

  • Hey, if you’re all pissed off because you can’t have sex (none for singles, gays or spouses separated from their wives/husbands) perhaps there’s satisfaction in killing the enemy.

    Maybe Gen. Pace can get some watchers to make sure no one in the military masturbates, either.

  • You’re letting him turn the argument on its head. He SAYS he wants to respect homosexuals “but not through the law of the land”, when in fact, he is condemning through the law, which specifically mandates their dismissal if they admit to being homosexuals.

  • RSA, I think that Pace is saying exactly that. Apparently he would discipline (if not discharge) military personnel for any and all extramarital sex.

    I see that Pace was born in 1945. He graduated high school in 1963, and from all-male Annapolis in 1967. He’s a Roman Catholic.

    General, I’ve got some news for you. Times have changed. Even in the long-ago Vietnam era, the sexual behavior of soldiers would have shocked the nuns who taught you in grade school. In the 21st century, most of your soldiers, sailors, and marines live with their girlfriends before the get married. IF they get married. Some of them even go out to bars and try to hook up with women there. Sometimes they succeed,

    General, it’s a good thing that you are retiring. If we have recruiting shortfalls now, just imagine what the military would be like if your beliefs became national military policy.

  • Steve — I think you should comment more directly on the fact that Pace seems to be saying unmarried straight soldiers who are having sex are also sinning. The logical deduction here is that only celibate or married soldiers should be permitted to serve. Is that remotely realistic? If not, then it doesn’t matter a tinker’s damn whether he (or anyone else) considers gay sex to be a sin.

  • He added his belief that “sex, other than between man and a woman inside the bonds of marriage, is a sin.

    This is where the total hypocrisy shows. They try to justify bigotry by claiming it’s not the sinner, it’s the sin, but why doesn’t the military discharge heterosexuals that have sex outside marriage or sex that isn’t for procreation?

    I was raised to believe (I’m an Atheist now) that God views all sin as equal.

  • That bruise I have on my forehead from banging it on the table is getting worse…

    I suspect the way this will be handled is that someone speaking anonymously will say that no one is going to publicly correct Pace because he’s on the way out the door. Gates will make a public statement that indicates that unless and until the DADT policy is changed, that will rule the day, and enforcing or abiding by it will not be the result of anyone’s religious beliefs – and that will be as much of a rebuke of Pace as is likely to be given from within the administration.

    Out here in the real world is another story. It just seems to me that when you have presidential candidates being asked things like “What’s your favorite Bible verse?” it continues to blur the lines that separate the personal from the professional, and by extension, church from state. It isn’t that I don’t respect someone’s right to have and to express their personal beliefs, or to practice them in a personal arena, but what Pace believes has nothing to do with military policy.

  • “The hearing resumed about five minutes later in which Pace said he would be supportive of efforts to revisit the Pentagon’s policy so long as it didn’t violate his belief that sex should be restricted to a married heterosexual couple.”

    Does this mean that any soldiers caught having sex with anyone other than their wife or husband should be “disciplined”? How fucked up is that?

  • 10.
    On September 27th, 2007 at 11:10 am, farmgirl said:

    I see a few others posted faster…

    Indeed…..curse the “opps ….copy your comment and try again” feature

  • When Harkin, who’d asked the question, noted that adultery isn’t illegal, Pace somewhat triumphantly responded that adultery is a crime under military law. Recall that in 2005 an army general was fired for adultery (having an affair while separated) and an air force lawyer was demoted and then fired for having a series of affairs. In the kind of moment C-SPAN junkies live for, while the room was being cleared of protesters, someone, possibly Gates, chided Pace for bringing up the topic, and Pace heatedly shot back that he hadn’t brought it up, adding something like “and the last thing I need is a lecture from you.” Then they cut the mics.

  • Now, I’m not entirely clear on whether Americans are still allowed to criticize generals who make misguided pronouncements… -CB

    CB, yes they are. See the First Amendment to the Constitution. -JKap

    Wait, I thought they voted against that last week? 😐

  • …to revisit the Pentagon’s policy so long as it didn’t violate his belief…
    So national military policy is based on the narrow religious beliefs of a few generals? (And presidents?)

    (Is the “oops, copy your comment and try again” designed to keep comment rather than content spam to a minimum? I’m with Nigel–it’s seriously annoying.)

  • in my upbringing, is counter to God’s law.

    Hmmm. In his upbringing lots of things were contrary to God’s law. Mixed race marriages, women working outside the home. I wonder if he attends mass daily.
    Asshole.

    But as Zotz notes, extramarital nookie is not permitted in the military. I seriously doubt they throw out people if neither of the people is married though I believe they are subject to discipline. During wartime it is more likely that you’d have to get caught screwing on top of a commanding officer’s desk before they’d do anything.

    But Pace-maker didn’t want to say that sex between unmarried people is a not permitted in the military, he wanted to get his hate on and show everyone what a pious little boy he is, hence the gibberish about gays, lesbians and sin. Fuck him. I hope the door hits him on the ass.

  • One of the many things Pace doesn’t comprehend is that, if most people were gay, heteros would be the outcasts. People discriminate; God has nothing to do with it.

  • “Now, I’m not entirely clear on whether Americans are still allowed to criticize generals who make misguided pronouncements…”

    Gee. I dunno. My guess is you’re probably OK if you can think of a way to say what you want to say that stops somewhere short of calling the person you want to criticize a traitor. I frankly think there’s been entirely enough of that in recent years and not just where generals are concerned. Same rules apply to everyone. And I can’t help but note that recent events have demonstrated it can also be an extremely stupid and counterproductive thing to do at a moment when the people your accusations are aimed at are badly in need of a diversion. But reasoned and vigorous disagreement, veracious and unequivocal criticism, even righteous indignation when called for (best used somewhat sparingly for maximum effect), those really never go out of fashion for long.

  • I think a little barracks lawyering is called for. I presume that General Pace is fine with men kissing, since that’s in the bible (David and Jonathan, 1 Samuel 18), and with men having sex standing up (since that doesn’t violate the prohibition against lying with a man). I’m also glad to see that we are making progress toward the point where we can start stoning soldiers for adulterous relationships with prostitutes and girlfriends. It’s too bad that no one thought to ask the general if the same strictures should apply to Republican senators. [/sarcasm]

  • Who gives a damn what values Pace was taught in his childhood? Since when was military behavior decided on the basis of somebody’s upbringing? Whose shall it be? Yours? Mine? Hitler’s? Who picked Peter Pace out of all of us and said the US military should run on the basis of HIS upbringing?

    The Constitution/Bill of Rights are the bible for the government to follow, not Peter Pace’s upbringing.

  • “Pace is basically saying gays should be allowed to serve, as long as they don’t have sex.”

    that would be fine with me if AND ONLY IF none of the heterosexuals could have sex either.

  • Resort to prostitutes by military personnel was common (the norm?) in my day (no, I didn’t — I was young & shy & scared … & cheap) — the general knows this.

  • what does iran and the republikkkan christian right and the general have in comman? they both hate gays with a passion. but whats really funny is that every republikkkan that claimed that they hated gays turned out to be gays themself.think about it.

  • I recall the profound words of the comedian Bill Hicks: I don’t want any gays around when I’m killing people. That’s immoral.

  • Maybe Gen. Pace can get some watchers to make sure no one in the military masturbates, either.

    MP = Masturbation Police?

  • As those in the Irreligious Right are so prone to spew about gays: “Love the sinner; hate the sin”.

    I’d say about General Pace: “Love the soldier; despise the nasty nutball in the uniform”.

    Sounds about equal to me…

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