Would Clinton be a drag on the Democratic ticket?

When Hillary Clinton’s Democratic skeptics list their biggest electoral concerns, near the top is the belief that she would undermine Democratic candidates’ chances down-ballot. It’s a pretty straightforward idea: Clinton is a “polarizing” Dem who generates strong negative feelings in most “red” states. If Clinton is at the top of the ballot, and Republicans are motivated to come to the polls to vote against her, Democratic congressional candidates, who won’t want to campaign alongside the New York senator, will be at a distinct disadvantage.

We’ve all heard the argument, but the evidence to support it is surprisingly thin. The NYT sets the stage today.

Mrs. Clinton is a long way from winning the Democratic presidential nomination, and over the last few weeks has struggled to hang on to the air of inevitability that she has been cultivating all year. But the possibility that she will be the nominee is already generating concern among some Democrats in Republican-leaning states and Congressional districts, who fear that sharing the ticket with her could subject them to attack as too liberal and out of step with the values of their constituents.

As evidence, the Times highlights Rep. Nancy Boyda, a freshman Dem from Kansas, who narrowly won an upset last year, appealing to conservative Democrats and moderate Republicans. Would a Clinton nomination hurt Boyda’s chances? The NYT quotes Republicans to bolster the thesis.

…Republicans in Kansas say Mrs. Clinton’s presence on the ticket would unite their party in opposition to her and give dispirited conservatives a reason to get excited about the race.

Wait, the evidence that Clinton would be a drag on Democratic candidates down-ballot comes from the others side of the aisle? According to the NYT, yes.

…Patrick Leopold, campaign manager for [Republican challenger Lynn] Jenkins, said a Clinton nomination would work in favor of either his candidate or Mr. Ryun, the other prospective Republican opponent of Ms. Boyda. “Whether you are a moderate Republican or a conservative Republican in Kansas, you are pretty much of the same mind on Hillary Clinton,” Mr. Leopold said. “There is no question Hillary is going to be a drag for Boyda.”

The mere mention of Mrs. Clinton’s name as a potential president dew a strong reaction from Tom Doperalski, an official in rural Pottawatomie County who had just finished meeting with Ms. Boyda about how to contend with growth issues arising out of the increase of troops stationed at nearby Fort Riley.

“The people I talk to, they just cannot imagine a worse scenario,” said Mr. Doperalski, a Republican who heads the county commission. “They just don’t think she can be trusted.”

I’m willing to be convinced that Clinton might undermine Dems’ down-ballot chances, but this won’t cut it. The article quotes exactly zero Dems expressing any on-the-record concerns at all, and citing rhetoric from Kansas Republicans isn’t exactly persuasive.

As for Boyda, she told the NYT, “It is something I have no control over, quite honestly. They will demonize any Democrat who becomes the nominee. I just put my head down and work.”

She’s quite right, the GOP will relentlessly smear any Dem who gets the nomination; it’s what the right does better than anything else. For me, that’s not necessarily the end of the discussion — the next question is whether those attempts to demonize would be more effective against some candidates than others — but it’s a reminder that this anti-Clinton talking point still needs quite a bit of work.

The polls don’t support the argument; the endorsements from congressional Dems don’t support the argument; and quotes from Republicans in Kansas don’t support the argument. If there’s proof, I’m all ears, but this NYT article is pretty weak.

I would tend to think so. What new constituency that generally doesn’t vote would show up to punch a few straight Democratic tickets if she were on the top? That said, I think it’s only a relative drag given the potential of other candidates, and not an absolute drag. Or even “kind of a drag.”

BTW, if I were Obama, I’d be running a “Clinton: Fooled Twice By the Bush Administration commercial in light of the most recent NIE on Iran.

  • But the possibility that she will be the nominee is already generating concern among some Democrats in Republican-leaning states and Congressional districts, who fear that sharing the ticket with her could subject them to attack as too liberal and out of step with the values of their constituents.

    Too liberal? She’s the most rightwing candidate on the Democratic slate of hopefuls. Unless the Democratic party wants to lose its traditional and very large base, the leadership needs to do a lot of re-thinking about giving up Democratic principles for the sake of getting conservatives running as Democrats elected in red states.

    While conservatives have lost face and the faith of Americans, they certainly haven’t stopped pushing their agenda, and we’ve already seen that the corporate powers that be don’t care WHICH political label anybody wears as long as their interests are protected. The Democrats need to firmly reject conservatism with reason and reminders about what conservatism has done to America, not pander to it by running conservative candidates to get a “bigger majority” in Congress. It’ll just be a bigger majority to vote for conservative government and corporate interests. America has not “turned conservative”. America is SICK of conservative.

  • America has not “turned conservative”. America is SICK of conservative.

    You may assert so, but I’ve seen damnall evidence of it. Electing a centrist candidate is a good way of ensuring that -some- movement away from the fascism currently in force, actually occurs: the usual trick of forcing candidates further and further left, so beloved of Democratic activists, will just castrate your President, again.

  • Hey Orange. In fact, virtually every poll shows the reThugs losing self-identifiers by the droves and Dems picking them up, across any demographic you might wish to look at – women, men, whites, blacks, hispanics, uniformed military, etc.

  • wvng: I believe you – but that’s a totally different thing from being sick of conservative (i.e. the leftwing of the Republicans, and the right wing & centre of the Democrats). As far as I can see, America is still centrist/conservative, not progressive.

    Don’t get me wrong, I want to push it towards progressive goals, but the direct approach ain’t gonna get it done, still

  • quotes from Republicans in Kansas don’t support the argument
    It does to a slight extent actually, as Boyda couldn’t have won without a fair amount of republican votes. Still, I don’t see it as being a dealbreaker in all except for maybe a few cases.

    You may assert so, but I’ve seen damnall evidence of it. — orange is not the answer
    I guess you haven’t seen how people feel about gay rights/DADT, universal health care, and stem cell research, to name some of the obvious things.

  • A viewpoint from my very red state:

    Yes, the Republicans will demonize any Democrat who wins the nomination.

    Yes, Hillary is the least liberal Democrat. But when did facts start to matter to Republicans?

    Yes, there’s no evidence, scientific or otherwise, that Hillary will be a drag on the ticket. There is no way that I know of to measure the amount by which she will “give dispirited conservatives a reason to get excited about the race.”

    Republicans have been demonizing the Clintons since at least 1992. The people who listen to Republican propaganda already hate the Clintons. With Obama or Edwards, hatred like that would have to be built from the ground up. It can’t be done in a year.

    The polls that show Hillary running as strong or stronger than her Dem rivals against hypothetical Republican candidates can’t measure turnout. Hillary-haters will turn out in droves, and work to get their church buddies to turn out as well. We activist Dems may be fired up, but is Hillary the one to draw marginally interested voters to the polls? Obama and Edwards are both much better speakers. Like norbizness said @ #1: “What new constituency that generally doesn’t vote would show up to punch a few straight Democratic tickets if she were on the top?”

    CB, I think that Republicans are the right people to talk to about the Hillary-hatred phenomenon. It’s so irrational that left-leaning people can’t fathom it.

    Would Clinton be a drag on the Democratic ticket? I think so. But I won’t be able to prove it until election day.

  • tAiO

    Electing what’s considered to be a “centrist” candidate today is electing a candidate that stands to the right of center. Why should any progressive voter want to do that and finally slam the door on restoring a Constitutional government? It’s the same old “you’ve gotta’ vote for the lesser of two evils” when the “evil” exists in our only possible choices, and I vehemently object to it. I don’t believe for a minute that any Democratic candidates will be “forced” left — who will do the forcing if Hillary’s elected? It’s the Democratic party leadership that’s moved right, not the voters in their base.

    Well, the base voters’ values apparently don’t count for much to the Democratic leadership, just the votes. That’s all anybody has that they want. The Bush administration has dramatically demonstrated that the US government can ignore American outrage over illegal invasions, violations of the Constitution, violations of the Geneva Conventions and the NNPT, illegal domestic surveillance, Congressional oversight, and laws passed by Congress. You think the Democrats haven’t absorbed that lesson?

    I’ll gladly return to the Democratic party when it moves left, but I’ve only seen them moving right against the best interests of America. I really fear for America.

  • I have seen numerous polls in the past several months that have tried to get at a measure of “polarization.” Other than Clinton’s negatives being higher (although not dramatically) than other candidates, most of those polls have shown that a lot of the candidates are polarizing, not surprising given the current state of the country’s politics. The irony of red states worrying about Clinton’s down-ballot effects is, as anney notes, that Clinton is considered by progressives to be the most conservative of the Dem candidates. She should actually help down-ballot candidates in red states by preventing any scare tactics about how liberal the Democrats are (indeed, I think once Obama’s comments at the Iowa Black – Brown Forum about drivers licenses for illegal immigrants get big play, red states will go nuts about how far left Obama allegedly is). In reality, if the important criteria is “non-polarizing,” I guess the idea is to nominate someone dull, like Chris Dodd who I like very much but who clearly is not inspiring many people.

  • Okie: I think you’ve persuaded me – you’re right, that level of craziness couldn’t be built up in a single 12 month period

  • zeitgeist

    I’m really wondering what’s at the base of the Hillary-hatred? It can’t be her “pure politics” — they’re too conservative for anybody to hate her for being “liberal”. I really believe the hatred has some other basis.

    If I had to guess, I’d think it would be her personality, a gut-reaction to what some see as coldness and a lack of caring that is apparent in only very small ways when she’s on public display but that people tend to make judgments about. She’s a very different personality than Bill, expresses herself quite differently, seems to have no genuine sense of humor and interest in questioners, and NOT ANSWERING QUESTIONS honestly, and rumors about her acid temper. I think all these factors enter into the equation of people’s perception of her.

  • Okie beat me to it. The Republicans have invested heavily for decades building up the Hillarymonster. They literally think she is the antichrist. Polls may or may not be able to register this, but I’ve seen it often enough to know it exists.

  • Come on Anney, “they” hate Hillary because they’ve been told to hate Hillary by nearly continuous smears from the RW noise machine and because they don’t know her. NY likes Hillary because they have come to know her and like how she has performed as one of their Senators.

    I vividly remember a number of the bloggers who attended the Yearly KOS convention, who were predisposed to not like her very much due to her centrist positions (like Atrios), saying that they were surprised to find that she was none of the sterotypes you mentioned. They came away with favaorable impressions.

  • Anecdotely, I’m hearing a number of people on all sides of the political aisle say that they will vote for any Republican over Clinton, or just stay home. I don’t think this is a creation of the Republican base; I live and work in a pretty liberal area with significant support for Obama, Edwards, Dodd and Richardson — and yet the anti-Clinton voices significantly outnumber the two pro-Clinton voices I’ve heard.

  • Americans are so much a product of their relentless corporate media, principally TeeVee shows (some which used be news programs) — and so absorbed by the military-industrial complex — that they wouldn’t recognize “left wing” if it came up and hit them on the head with a hammer. As with the Inquisition and some modern theocracies, there’s only “orthodox” and “heretical” (i.e., “mainstreams” and “kooky/dangerous”).

  • Wait, the evidence that Clinton would be a drag on Democratic candidates down-ballot comes from the others side of the aisle?

    …exactly. Concern trolling, we might call it here on the internets.

    It’s nice that they’re so worried about us though. Kind of touching, really. No, I mean it. :b

    Some of the spin being launched this AM on Clinton’s latest push-back against Obama is pretty entertaining too — approaching apoplectic in at least one case, one guy actually referred to it as a “series or slurs.” (???) Much more gloom and doom there as well — all for Clinton in this case, of course (more concern trolling, sure to backfire, yadda yadda). At this rate we may see a few people go into convulsions before she’s done because looking at the calendar, I’ve got a feeling she’s just getting started.

  • Anney, as for why they dislike her so much, I would factor in her smugness. The Republicans hate Democrats more than anything else, and smug Democrats who have already kicked their ass must be especially irritating. Their hero Rush Limbaugh built an empire hating the Clintons, it was more of a business plan than anything. Without that hatred he would be a nobody, so he fostered it to the Nth degree. Many other conservatives copied his schtick, and the dumb Republican voter (that’s redundant, I know) fell for it. Now they’re invested in it, no matter how many things the Clintons did that they actually agree with, no matter how evil the Clintons’ opponents have proven themselves to be, they will always hate them.

    IMO the root of all Republican emotion is that their party hates Democrats. It’s very tribal, and everything flows from there. The Clintons represent the biggest whupping they ever got in recent memory, so yeah, they’ll ALL be there to vote if Hillary is the nominee.

    Steve will see.

  • 4 years of Bush Senior
    8 years of Bill
    8 years of Bush the Lite
    8 years of Hillary
    8 years of Jeb

    = 36 years that our country remains unable to be reunited

    If Hillary is the nominee & if Hillary is elected – we would be faced with 4 or 8 years of Larry Klaiman (Judical Watch) and the right wing money machine using the courts and the corporate news media to continue dividing…

    Above all else, our country needs a chance to overcome the devisiveness of the last 2 decades. For this reason, Clinton must not be the nominee.

  • anney, remember that much of the HRC Derangement Syndrome suffering began with the far right — those who actually care what Phyllis Schlafly says. They resented that Hillary was not like Barbara Bush, that Hillary actually wanted a substantive, as opposed to merely matronly, role in Bill’s presidency. They became positively unglued at her initial refusal to enter the cookie recipe contest (which, ironically, she ultimately won) and her alleged slander of Tammy Wynnette. The original attacks that lead to her reputation for being polarizing came from things like keeping her own name and wearing pants — things that should not only have no credibility with progressives, they are charges progressives should rise up to counteract.

    Much of the hatred is also spillover hatred from Bill. He stole or negated many of their issues, he actually got the wheels of government to move a little which disproves their core theories, and he wholly undermined the “Rethugs are better on econ issues than Dems” meme by turning Bush I’s fiscal numbers around. Better still, he did both at once — 100,000 additional cops on the street while reducing the deficit. And to think he did this after avoiding the draft, smoking dope, having long hair, hanging out in Europe, and shagging women that Paul Wolfowitz couldn’t pay to date him.

    Ironically, she did historically well in upstate New York once people saw how she actually represented them. And some of her biggest detractors in the Senate on the Rethug side have now successfully co-sponsored bills with her. In Iowa, she gets good reviews from people who meet her in small groups where the “cold, aloof” stuff should matter most.

    I find most people who really “hate” her (not just disagree with her on issues like most here) have never seen her in person and really cant tell you why they hate her – it is like they have been socialized to it, steeped in the sewage such that they incrementally picked it up without even knowing how it happened.

  • There was a news item in today’s Tulsa World about presidential candidates filing for the presidential primary in Oklahoma. To emphasize my point about irrational Hillary-hatred, here is one of the reader comments about that story from someone who calls himself “The Oracle:”

    “Oh Great! Power hungry Slick Willie’s wife who has a convicted burglar on her staff who hides sensitive documents in his underware and a convicted perjurer by her side that spends endless time and words telling us how great he is and trying to rewrite history and a politician with no experience named Barak Hussein Obaba. (Spelling and punctuation are as posted originally.)

    This is what we’re up against, folks.

  • Christine wrote:

    Anecdotely, I’m hearing a number of people on all sides of the political aisle say that they will vote for any Republican over Clinton, or just stay home…

    Wow, Christine. What a truly unique place your area must be — because statistically, something approaching 90% of Democrats and a majority of independents are fine with any of the leading Democratic candidates. Who would have guessed that the rest all lived in one place? (Republicans of course, won’t vote for any of our people, period, so screw ’em.) But your concern is duly noted.

  • Would it be inappropriate to suggest that all but the insane deadenders are pretty deeply depressed right now, and are less than likely to turn out to vote for, or against, anyone? And, for those deadenders, they will follow the commands of Dear Leader’s disciples who, as Boyda said: “will demonize any Democrat who becomes the nominee.”

    To Racerx “they’ll ALL be there to vote if Hillary is the nominee” – there are fewer people in the ALL category every single day.

  • SmilingDixie, it is a total myth, solely for political harm to HRC, that somehow if the Clintons and Bushes just go away the country will heal.

    Just last week I read an article re Trent Lott’s retirement noting that the Senate is not nearly as genteel as it once way because House firebrands and moving to the Senate. The words “Clinton” and “Bush” were not even used in the article; the coursening of the Senate, to give just one example, is wholly independent of Clinton and Bush. As long as Rove, Nordquist, Weyrich, et al are alive and kicking there will be divisiveness. Beating Dukakis with an overtly racist ad, beating Harvey Gantt with an overtly racist ad, beating Gore with outright lies about his character, beating American hero Max Cleland with the sleaziest campain in history. . . none of that sated the demons, and with the exception of the Gore race none had the first thing to do with Clintons or Bushes. The division, the hate, the slandering of the other “side,” the intolerant “us versus them” rhetoric started during Saint Ronnie’s time, before the Bushes or Clintons ever looked like dynasties. The hateful immigration debate will continue to be a wedge issue, gay rights will continue to be a wedge issue, Obama will be hit with 527 group ads that make the “Harold, call me” racism look like childs play.

    The belief that if we just stop Hillary everything will be utopian is beyond naive.

  • zeitgeist,

    Don’t forget the $70 million (if memory serves) that the insurance, pharmaceutical and other healthcare-related industries spent smearing Mrs. Clinton any way they could, back in the early 90s. That was a lot of money in those days.

  • Zeitgeist

    It is NOT my assertion that the country will be healed or reunited if the Bushes & Clintons go away.

    It IS my assertion that WITHOUT their going away, there is NO change of healing.

  • This just in:

    The USA Today poll has Hillary with an astonishing 50% “unfavorable” rating from those polled in a national poll. No one else is even close. Only 3% have “no opinion” of her. Minds are already made up!

    Huckabee is coming on fast. I predict that he will win the nomination. (Crazy, I know.)

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-12-03-poll-clinton-giuliani_N.htm

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2007-12-03-politics-poll.htm

  • wvng

    I vividly remember a number of the bloggers who attended the Yearly KOS convention, who were predisposed to not like her very much due to her centrist positions (like Atrios), saying that they were surprised to find that she was none of the sterotypes you mentioned.

    But I didn’t mention any stereotypes, just small things that Hillary has done or shown that people I know say have caused them to distrust or dislike her. When she’s not campaigning to a mixed crowd, maybe she’s different. Zeitgeist, this applies to your statement about people in NY State liking her. As a former NJ-ite, I can see why that’s true — she certainly isn’t a hick come to town and has been pretty good about addressing her constituents’ concerns. But as a Senator on larger national issues, I think she has problems with a larger progressive base.

    =====

    I guess the point I’m aiming to make is that Hillary isn’t hated by JUST die-hard Republicans who take their spiritual orders from the Republican party. There, there’s a dislike of her on both grounds of political principles AND personality. I feel the same way about Rudy Giuliani, though I hate him less than I have contempt for a self-aggrandizing crooked twit who doesn’t have what it takes to be a threat, even if he is running for the presidency

    And I didn’t think of it at the time, but those progressives or liberals who saw Bill Clinton betray their principles may see Hillary as being tainted by him, too — dislike her for that reason.

    After reading the posts, I guess I’ll have to agree she’s disliked for a number of reasons that aren’t generated by her. But I’ll also say this: some of that animosity is generated by people’s perceptions of her from what they’ve seen or read that she’s done. She isn’t an “easy-flow” amiable person. I see her as always on attorney-like “send”, very rarely honest “receive”. Many people don’t like these kinds of dominator- types, something the Republicans are quite good at!

  • To paraphrase the Only Rock Band That Matters,

    should they stay or should they go?
    if they stay there will be trouble, if they go it will be double
    does it matter? actually no. they can stay or they can go.

    the response is the same to either of your assertions: the presence of absence of Bushes and Clintons is wholly irrelevant to the odds of healing.

    the massive death by excruciating plague of all members of the Club for Growth, the Federalist Society, Focus on the Family, Fox News, the 700 Club, and anyone who ever worked with Lee Atwater or Karl Rove is about the only thing that materially moves the dial.

  • anney –

    maybe the reason i don’t see it or get rubbed the wrong way by HRC’s “attorney-like” attributes is that i work in law. 🙂

    (there goes all of my credibility around here. . .)

  • Getting rid of the Clinton-Bush inter-dynastic feud, personality/celebrity endorsements, and inter-tribal red-blue symbolic hatreds, clearly won’t heal the nation. But it also won’t threaten corporations.

    Moving the contest to one between alternative policies aimed at solving some of the nations very real problems would. And if those alternatives were given a chance to be aired widely and deeply enough, there’s no question that traditional Democratic values (e.g., Edwards, Obama) would obviously win out over multi-billionaire greed and corporate interests.

    Corporate America and its military-industrial complex couldn’t tolerate that.

    So, it’ll be politics as usual, once again.

  • Anney (39), nice post. I would suggest that it is almost impossible for outsiders to have an accurate understanding of who Hillary is because the media mistreatment of her has been so constant and often so extreme and we have are all been impacted by it. And because she has run such a disciplined and careful campaign designed to protect her from mistakes – which she absolutely needs to do because of the history of outrageous media mistreatment.

    But this is a terrific thread, much more civil and thoughtful on the topic of Hillary than I’ve seen elsewhere. Kudos to all.

  • wvng

    That was an interesting Huffington Post read, though what Bill Clinton thought about the invasion of Iraq doesn’t have much to do with who voted for the October 2002 Resolution. I must say that I never blamed anybody in Congress for voting for it. I just don’t believe that anybody knew then what we know now, that an American president would lie bald-facedly to Congress, America, and the world, and ignore the requirements of that resolution because he intended to have his war, illegal or not.

    What it SHOULD have taught everybody, sooner or later, is that Bush is absolutely not to be trusted again, and those who initially trusted him but recanted later are not to blame for that initial trust. Also it should have taught Congress that they must take back their Constitutional responsibility to declare war and NEVER hand it freely to a president.

    I just don’t think Hillary can be justifiably criticized for her vote in that case.

    Zeitgeist, not all attorneys are always on “send” — I’ve known and worked with plenty who are quite capable of and actually enjoy give and take, so I certainly won’t throw tomatoes! 🙂

  • You are seriously delusional if you don’t think Hillary would hurt down-ticket candidates. She is the GOP’s only hope in 2008. Obama would crush the GOP nominee, whereas Clinton would maybe squeak her way into office. And she would not be reelected.

  • Please don’t label Christine – or me, for that matter – as “concern trolls”, because we express doubts on Hillary’s appeal. I can also contribute much “anecdotal” evidence of Dems who – for one reason or another – will NOT vote for Clinton. And, Republicans I know, who are sick of Bush and his minions, who would NOT consider voting for Hillary, though they might another Dem candidate. Like most Dems, I will vote for anything/anybody with a “D” after their names, but I have met more than a few Hillary-haters.

    And, I also want to affirm Dixie’s assertion that many voters have innate problems with the Bush/Clinton/Bush continuim since, basically, 1980. I don’t think the Red/Blue divide would instantly heal by NOT having Hillary in office, but her absence, would go a long way towards bringing down the roar.

    That being said, I know damn well that the Republican noise-machine will vilify ANY Democrat nominated for president. I just think we need another candidate. But, I will work and vote for Hillary, if she receives the nomination.

  • A right-wing friend of mine e-mailed last night:

    I promise you, though – any swing voter that’s voted Republican even once in the past 12 years is not going to pull the lever for Hillary. It’s just not possible.

    This might be a very slight exaggeration–but no more than that.

    As Okie says, minds are made up. I suggest with respect that the problem here is that you guys are looking at Clinton’s politics. Yes, that’s why I can’t stand her–she’s too far right, too timid by temperament, too willing to compromise principles and triangulate, too terrified of hearing David Broder, Chris Matthews and Tim Russert cluck their tongues in disapproval.

    But that’s not the perception in the country. Matt Yglesias wrote months ago that Clinton is a moderate who’s perceived as a liberal–the worst of both worlds for those of us who want to both win and see the country move in a progressive direction.

    As for the Times article, there are easier ways to prove or disprove the hypothesis: take the underlying partisanship of any district as measured by the last presidential vote there, add the margin of the Democrat’s 2006 victory in the Dem direction, poll for Hillary’s approve/disapprove numbers and make an adjustment for intensity of the sentiment. You’ve then got at least enough data to make a guess about her down-ticket impact. I think it will be significant, but if the numbers state otherwise, great.

  • the massive death by excruciating plague of all members of the Club for Growth

    Sorry, zeitgeist, that’s still too kind for them – we need a special CfG tax to apply to them, every year …

  • Phoebes (36): “That being said, I know damn well that the Republican noise-machine will vilify ANY Democrat nominated for president. I just think we need another candidate. But, I will work and vote for Hillary, if she receives the nomination.”

    Good to hear that. The reality (in my opinion) is that all of the first and second tier Dems would restore credibility and competence to our government. They would all be different, they would have different strengths and weaknesses, but they all understand and believe that government should act as a force to better the lives of every American.

    An important question right now, maybe the most important, is which Dem candidates will be most effective in combating the RW noise machine and RW tactics. It seems pretty clear that it was the Clinton campaign’s behind the scene efforts that killed the RW attempt in California to siphon off electors.

  • Analysis by Charlie Cook of the National Journal from September and a bit from October. He’s as careful and knowledgeable as anyone. Since it’s behind a subscription wall, the whole piece is below (I apologize in advance):

    Don’t Count Her Out
    By Charlie Cook, National Journal
    “Can Hillary Clinton win?” That is one of the most common questions in American politics these days, except among people who flatly declare, “There is no way Hillary Clinton can win.”
    All but the most committed Republicans acknowledge the difficulty of their party’s winning the White House next year. Four of the five times since World War II that a party has had a chance to win three consecutive presidential races, “time for a change” sentiment prevented it. (The exception was George H.W. Bush’s 1988 election at the end of Ronald Reagan’s second term.)
    Heading into 2008, the Republican brand is undoubtedly tarnished. That’s why the NBC News/Wall Street Journal and CBS/New York Times polls conducted this month have given the Democrats advantages of 13 and 16 points, respectively, on the generic presidential ballot question, with the former also giving Democrats a 12-point lead on the generic congressional test.
    Clinton, the Democratic front-runner, is widely derided as “too polarizing.” Although there is no definitive way to measure the size of the anti-Hillary vote, a number of reasonable gauges exist that, together, produce an educated guess. Is Clinton’s die-hard opposition more than 50 percent of the electorate, about 50 percent, or under 50 percent? Or, is it close to the percentage of voters who wouldn’t cast ballots for any Democrat for president, no matter who the nominee was?
    One way to measure the opposition is to look at Clinton’s “unfavorable” ratings, because presumably those who would never consider voting for her would say they have a negative opinion of her. In a poll conducted this month by CNN/Opinion Research, 39 percent of adults had an unfavorable opinion of Clinton. So did 40 percent in the CBS/New York Times poll and 45 percent in a Fox/Opinion Dynamics survey. The September NBC/Wall Street Journal found 42 percent of respondents voicing a negative view of Clinton. So, using the worst number for Clinton, from the Fox poll, the anti-Clinton vote might be 45 percent.
    A second approach is to ask people directly if they would vote for Clinton. In the July CBS/New York Times poll, 34 percent of registered voters said they would “definitely not” vote for Clinton. In the September Fox poll, 42 percent of registered voters said they would “never” vote for Clinton, and 39 percent said they would have trouble sleeping at night if she were president. Again taking the worst number for Clinton, 42 percent of voters say that they are hard-core anti-Clinton.
    A third way is to simply match Clinton up in trial heats with a variety of Republican candidates. The NBC/Wall Street Journal survey — conducted by veteran pollsters Peter Hart, a Democrat, and Neil Newhouse, a Republican — tested Clinton against four Republicans. She led former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee by 14 points, 50 percent to 36 percent; led former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney by 13 points, 51 percent to 38 percent; led former Sen. Fred Thompson of Tennessee by 9 points, 50 percent to 41 percent; and led former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani by 7 points, 49 percent to 42 percent.
    The CNN/Opinion Research poll put Clinton 13 points ahead of Thompson, 55 percent to 42 percent, but just 4 points ahead of Giuliani, 50 percent to 46 percent, a statistical tie. A new Cook Political Report/RT Strategies poll conducted September 13-16 had Clinton just 2 points in front of Giuliani, 45 percent to 43 percent — another statistical tie.
    Clinton’s potential opponents drew anywhere from 34 percent to 46 percent of the vote in these trial heats. And Pollster.com’s trend estimates for Clinton’s rivals ranged from a low of 39 percent to a high of 44 percent. Using this method to measure opposition to Clinton, the highest number is 46 percent.
    Data and common sense suggest that Clinton has a hard-core level of opposition in the mid-40s — at most 46 percent, but perhaps a bit lower. One might argue that a noncontroversial Democratic nominee (if such a thing is possible) might do better than Clinton. But, particularly since the playing field is tilted in the Democrats’ favor for 2008, the evidence just doesn’t support the idea that she cannot win.

    In October, Cook said:

    “The pattern from the polls is clear: Clinton never wins big, generally holding a lead of 2 to 8 points over Giuliani and 10 to 13 points over Romney. But her leads are consistent. She has a high floor and a low ceiling, like a stock with a fairly narrow trading range. She doesn’t trail, but she doesn’t ever blow the Republican opposition away, either.

    What seems to be happening is that Hillary Clinton is not really becoming more likable, she is becoming less unacceptable. She doesn’t seem to convert people so much as wear down their opposition to her.

    Rather than wearing thin, Clinton seems to be wearing better. She has moved up impressively in the polls for both the nomination and the general election. Some suggested early on that voters would tire of her, but instead they almost seem resigned to her winning the Democratic nomination, and the early pattern in her general election polling seems to be following the same trajectory, at least for now.

    The key thing, though, is that narrow trading range. Unless Clinton becomes dramatically less polarizing, which seems improbable, she is likely to maintain her slim but consistent advantage. But will it ever widen to the point where a misstep or a bit of misfortune wouldn’t give her Republican opponent the lead? That’s the key question.”

  • It is amazing how quickly true events get flushed down the rabbit’s memory hole with spin. -wvng

    I don’t think anyone here is surprised that Hillary’s rhetoric doesn’t match her votes. If she was so opposed to these multiple quagmires, then why has she so consistently voted for them and rolled out the red carpet for another one?

    The answer is, of course, she’s a pandering liar who will say anything to please whatever crowd she happens to be in front of at any time and hopes that they won’t pay attention to the fact that she believed Bush was right and sent us into Iraq, supported the Patriot Act multiple times including unconstitutional language, and recklessly voted yes on Kyl-Lieberman and handed Bush the sticks with which to beat his war drum.

    But who cares about her actual votes and the lives lost as a result. She can’t have it both ways.

  • wvng

    It seems pretty clear that it was the Clinton campaign’s behind the scene efforts that killed the RW attempt in California to siphon off electors.

    Don’t Count Your Chickens Afore They’re Hatched! It isn’t a done save as of a month ago.

    New Life for Initiative to Apportion Electoral Vote

    By JENNIFER STEINHAUER

    Published: November 3, 2007

    LOS ANGELES, Nov. 2 — Republican donors are pumping new life into a proposed ballot initiative, considered all but dead by Democrats a month ago, that would alter the way electoral votes are apportioned in California to the benefit of Republican presidential candidates.

  • anney, a news piece about a week ago indicated it was finally well and truly gone. I believe CB included it in one of his daily briefs.

  • Wow, that timeline is scary.

    Actually, you forgot Reagan.

    So, based on that timeline of Repug and corporate-sellout-DLC presidents, we’d be looking at an unbroken chain since CARTER in 1980.

    Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Dumbya, Clinton, Jeb… 44 years or so of corporate rule, if Clinton and Jeb win and get two terms each…

    Let’s not forget that Carter was a mere 4-year blip, preceded by 8 years of Nixon and Ford…. jeebus…. and warmongering Johnson before him… Kennedy didn’t even get to live to serve for 3 full years… 8 years of Ike/Nixon before that, have we really been this fucked up since TRUMAN left office??

    Frightening.

  • “Republican leaning states” have just not been paying attention to the past 6yrs. If Clinton energizes republicans to go vote for any of the GOP candidates then they are beyond rationality because of all the Dems she would be the one easiest for them to bargain with and much better than any of their party’s candidates. So I don’t buy it.
    I still don’t understand why people act like we are electing Kings and Queens and dictators. The nominee represents the party (except for executive decisions like attacking other countries in defense etc.) and Clinton would still be a democrat representative of the party.
    Bush is supported by the republicans, even when he makes ridiculous decisions. People are sick of the republicans and are just fine tunning which democrat they want to represent the party to be next president. It is the democratic party that is being elected here, not a ruler.

  • actually, bjobotts, i’m not sure that is true. Some of GHW Bush’s biggest problems came from a Republican congress. Carter could not get along with a Democratic congress because he insisted on doing things an outsider’s way with a team of outsiders. It is true that somewhere between the President’s party, his party in Congress, and his party in Governor’s seats is effectively mediated what “the party” stands for, but there is no assurance those groups are really in the same place, and ultimately one or another will prevail in governance (Bush II, for example, completely rolled a Rethug congress – it would not have mattered where they stood).

  • Given this administration’s history of disclosure such as their report that global warming is merely “real”, is it safe to assume that when it say Iran would have a nuke in 3-8 years they mean they might have one in 20 if they really busted their tails?

  • CalD —

    Sorry for the late reply to this — damn work and its interruptions of political discussions 🙂


    Wow, Christine. What a truly unique place your area must be — because statistically, something approaching 90% of Democrats and a majority of independents are fine with any of the leading Democratic candidates. Who would have guessed that the rest all lived in one place? (Republicans of course, won’t vote for any of our people, period, so screw ‘em.) But your concern is duly noted.

    I live in South Florida, which is probably not the best place for figuring out the political mood of the country. But these anti-Clinton comments are not just coming from South Floridians, but also from people I know in California, Washington, Arizona and Massachusetts. One Massachusetts acquaintance now volunteers for Obama in New Hampshire on the weekends because of her hatred for Clinton. And yes, I’ve heard several people say that they would happily vote for any Democratic candidate — except Clinton.

    How much this will actually translate to votes come November is pretty doubtful – I know people who said they wouldn’t vote for Kerry in 2004, only to change their minds when faced with the news of the war on Iraq. I suspect that if we’re facing Guiliani come November, Clinton’s support will skyrocket 🙂 But the anti-Clinton feeling is real, and dismissing it as “internet trolling” is probably not helpful.

    For the record, given the choice between Clinton and any of the current Republican candidate, I’ll vote for Clinton. But let’s not assume other people would do the same.

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