Romney, religion, and ‘the public square’

In an earlier post, I tackled Mitt Romney’s speech on religion and the political implications, but I also wanted to take a moment to consider some of the substantive flaws in his criticism of church-state separation.

For example, Romney sees some nefarious forces working to undermine religion.

“They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America — the religion of secularism.”

Romney didn’t field questions today, but I have a follow-up inquiry: name one. Name one prominent figure in America, who has any official and/or political influence, who believes religion has “no place in public life.” I suspect some of my conservative friends may point to the ACLU or my friends at Americans United for Separation of Church and State, but that’s absurd — both want the government to remain neutral on matters of faith, but neither have ever expressed any hostility of religion. Indeed, both AU and the ACLU have gone to court, countless times, to protect the rights of the faithful.

“The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion, but they did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation ‘Under God’ and in God, we do indeed trust.”

Actually, the Founding Fathers did quite a bit more than oppose the creation of an official church; they created a purely secular government by way of a purely secular Constitution. They wanted a government that, in the words of James Madison (who, not incidentally, wrote the Constitution), had “no cognizance” of religion.

As for this notion of religion in “the public square,” it’s a phrase used so frequently by conservatives, it no longer has any meaning.

Pick almost neighborhood in the country and go for a walk. You’ll cross houses of worship, homes with nativity scenes, homes with menorahs, newsstand with religious magazines, door-to-door evangelists, religious bookstores, TVs with religious programming, radio stations with religious programming, and political candidates tripping over each other to campaign in pulpits, and give houses of worship taxpayer-financed grants.

Is this the religion-free public square that Romney’s so worked up about?

No, his argument is more subtle — he wants an environment in which the government is responsible for promoting religion. It’s not enough for a church and a home-owner to erect nativity scenes, City Hall needs to do the same thing. If you disagree, you must believe religion has “no place in public life.”

Please. In our culture, religion is common in the media — I can barely remember the last month Time and/or Newsweek didn’t feature religion as a cover story — almost exclusively in a positive light. In sporting events, celebrating athletes routinely express their religiosity. At awards ceremonies, entertainers routinely “give thanks to God” from the outset, usually to considerable applause.

What’s wrong with this? Not a thing. It’s a free marketplace of ideas, and people can be as religious as they choose, without the government’s or Mitt Romney’s help.

And in politics, out of the 535 members of Congress, 50 governors, the president, vice president, the Bush cabinet, and nine Supreme Court justices, there is exactly one person — not one percent, just one guy — who does not profess a faith in God. Indeed, in the last presidential election, one candidate announced during a presidential debate, “My faith affects everything that I do, in truth…. I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith.” This was John Kerry, the more secular candidate of the two.

Romney’s fears of wicked secularists driving the faithful from American culture are just so tiresome. This kind of rhetoric might play well in the minds of paranoid conservatives, but it’s still nonsense.

“We are a nation ‘Under God’ and in God, we do indeed trust.” ”

Correct me if I’m wrong, and I may well be, but wasn’t the latter of those phrases a much later addition?

  • What you wrote reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day- the liberal stance on religion is tolerance; it’s the atheist stance on religion that religion is bad. If your for religious tolerance within limits needed to govern a safe and free society, your a liberal; if your for taking away people’s religion or you think people’s right to believe in what they want is less important than the gains that would be made by abandoning religion, your really an atheist as that ideology relates to the issue of the state’s relation to practice of religion, not a liberal. It’s a dogmatic atheist stance, not a liberal stance. And sure, you can be an atheist (in your attitude toward the existence of higher powers) but still take the liberal stance (as regards state-religion relations).

  • Paranoid “conservatives” know that their mythological persecution is largely what keeps them from splintering into a million more stupid religions, and then being dilluted into oblivion. With a church on every corner, they blather endlessly about their alleged persecution and use it as an excuse to do any number of unethical things, like persecute Mormons!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Anti-Mormon

  • I don’t know why I just wrote a bunch of instances of “your” there that should have all been “you’re.”

    Sorry.

  • Swan: “…if your [sic] for taking away people’s religion… your [sic] really an atheist…”

    Swan, you’re very confused.

    Atheists do not advocate anything, any more than people who don’t believe in Santa Claus can be said to advocate anything. I think the adjective you’re looking for is “anti-religious”.

  • “Freedom requires religion” ???!
    He has no chance in general election after this.
    Go Romney!

  • I wont even begin dispelling all of the historical problems with Romney’s message; even if you accept (and I don’t) that the “founders” (as if they were monolithic, which they weren’t) created this nation under God, their view of what that meant and what “god” was like would be wholly foreign to modern Americans.

    My bigger issue is how Romney is willfully contributing to erroneous public beliefs about religion and the “public square.” The examples CB gives are really private actors on largely private property whose expressions of religion happen to be publicly experienced (a home with a nativity, a church). But one can actually go farther: I challenge Romney to given example of purely private religious expression (i.e. not government sponsored) has been banished from a truly public square.

    Under the First Amendment, in places considered by the law to be a “public forum,” speech (with a few exceptions – incitement, obscenity, and to some degree slander and commercial speech), the law treats these as essentially a “black box” – we neither know nor care what the speech consists of. It may a Christian sermon, it may be a Krishna playing tambourine, it may be a Satanist, it may be an anti-war protest, it may be an anti-abortion protest, it may be someone claiming to see UFOs, it may be me playing drums for the heck of it. It just doesn’t matter. And in that regard, even the most purely religious matter can be espoused in the public square — literally, like in a city park.

    The Rethugs don’t really like free speech of the idea of the public square, however, for exactly this reason. First, they have to lie about it to allow their followers to play the victim, like Romney did. Second, and more important, they only want speech to be “free” if it is speech they approve. “Religion” has been removed from the public square in some places because whole groups of speech have been removed — religion was not singled out. Why remove whole types of speech? Under the black box theory, if you allow a Christian speaker, you have to allow a Muslim speaker on similar conditions. As if that wouldn’t upset Christofascists enough, you also have to allow an atheist, a wiccan, a satanist and a pastafarian the exact same right. Many rightwingers have a clever but intellectually dishonest (I know – winger and dishonest is redundant) trick: complain about the satanist until the forum is declared a non-public forum – essentially converting it from a free speech zone to a speech-free zone, excluding Chrsitianist speech along with the rest, and then scream that religion (meaning “my religion”) has been banned from the public square.

    Romney does a disservice to the idea of civics to perpetuate the misunderstandings that an ignorant public holds in this area.

  • Where the ACLU and related groups come in, although some may not see it at first, is fighting for tolerance. They try to put restrictions in some people’s attempts to have religion incorporated into public life, because they see particular such attempts as limiting atheists and believers of other religions from believing about religion as they see fit.

    To put it in a Christian perspective: the problem with all the rural people who are cursing the ACLU and trying to get more and more Christian symbolism and ritual used in state-sponsored institutions is that they have abandoned all manners and courtesy when it comes to promoting religion. Christ’s message may be that your religion is the most important thing in the world, and something you should take very seriously, but he didn’t advocate you using your religion as an excuse to stalk and harass people.

    This is what you are doing by trying to get Christian observances put in schools and courts and other public places- your are rubbing your religion in the noses of people, without even knowing if they feel the same way as you, not truly and nobly proselytizing your religion.

  • Racerx, as usual, I’m not confused. You’re confused.

    Atheism is nothing more than the belief in no god. As I said in my comment, one could believe in no god but still believe in tolerance, so I did not say, as you claimed, that atheism requires anyone to believe anything. I also used the term atheist in a different way, as a label I just coined to refer to a stance on the religion-in-public-spaces issue some atheists might take, in which they do not believe in tolerance for religion. This dual-use was clear from my comment.

    I drew the distinction to clear up the confusion the conservatives intentionally or unintentionally create, when they try to make it sound as if all liberals are across-the-board intolerant of religion. This is just not so, and we all know many liberals who are tolerant of religion. The rationale for the liberal approach to the religion-in-public-spaces issue that motivates the ACLU’s fight is actually based on tolerance for religion and struggling against how particular religious groups’ promotion of their religion’s dominance of public spaces tends to amount to public intolerance towards other religions.

  • I don’t have to use the label “anti-religious” just because you prefer it…

    I just use the term atheist to distinguish from what the real liberal p.o.v. is and to show that it is not necessarily anything that has to do with promoting atheism. So atheist is a good term.

    Use anti-religious is you prefer it, but I want to make clear that liberalism is compatible with religion, especially on these issues.

  • Still waiting for an answer to this:

    Could you please inform us where the “constitutional principle” of the separation of church and state actually appears in the Constitution?

    Thanks.

  • Paul, I’d be happy to.

    “Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .”

    That separates the state from the church. Glad I could help.

  • You’ll note also that Christ never asked anybody to throw up big monuments to him, nor ordered anything like that done during his lifetime. It was only the addition of assholes who lived hundreds of years after Christ, and who hate people who are just as human as they are because they have a different color of skin, that called for that. So turning away from Christ’s simple teaching is actually rejecting Christ, just like believing that you do not need to do any of the things Christ asked you to do during his life, but that as long as you “accept” Christ (this is what they call it, although it’s a pretty strange way to accept someone you supposedly love) as your Savior, it doesn’t matter that you date-raped a girl when you were 17 or that you tried to screw up people’s lives.

    If Christ really advocated living the way you do, there would be a record of Christ picking on and victimizing people, but instead, Christ’s teachings were something much different than that. It’s just been the work of many generations of “Christians” to develop rationales to reject that totally and live according to the evil that influences them.

  • …or that you tried to screw up people’s lives.

    Meant “or that you tried to screw up liberals’ lives.” But others count too.

  • Paul Asks: Could you please inform us where the “constitutional principle” of the separation of church and state actually appears in the Constitution?

    Same place the “constitutional principles” of a “fair trial” and “right to vote” and “equality under the law” appear. This silly right-wing meme of saying “separation of church and state doesn’t appear in the Constitution” is just that, silly. It is shorthand for the principles espoused in the First Amendment and is recognized as such in law.

  • Shorter Romney: “Don’t think that just because my faith is in the minority that it will prevent me from enshrining yours as the official national religion for your vote.”

  • Great article !!!

    And TonyJ — Yes, it was added about 150 years later (1954) during the McCarthy era.

  • Romney’s erroneous conflation of “under God” and “In God we Trust” with the founders was deliberate and shameful. He knows perfectly well the two phrases emerged in the 1950s as part of the red scare hysteria of that era. Both are clearly unconstituional declarations, but the damage is done and they’ll never be stricken, because the courts, with few exceptions, don’t have the guts. And I’m not sure I’d like to see them struck down, because the public would overwhelming favor a remedial Constitutional amendment, which would almost certainly be far worse than these two transgressions. But we have to hold the line here. We can’t let these guys act as if the government officially endorses monotheism, just because Congress unwittingly stuck its foot in the door a half century ago. Right now, the courts turn a blind eye to these declarations, unofficially classifying them as meaningless ceremonial pronouncements. That’s how we double-think our way out of these unfortunate unconstitutional acts of Congress.

    But Romney has taken it a giant step further, by implying that the founders meant for the federal government to endorse the existence of God, and a pretty specific one at that. Certainly not the deist, laid back, natural god that many founders believed in.

    Who knows what could happen if one of these religious fanatics is elected president? Who would have guessed that a nincompoop like Bush could, and would, shred the Constitution?

  • ***comment #1*** I believe you are right. “Under God” was added in the ’50s as a response to the communist threat and approved by congress. The founders made a point of not mentioning “God” in the constitution.

    Religions have flourished in America but religious intrusions have been a constant battle.
    One religion in particular wants to put its dictates up in the public square while not allowing other religions to have the same right.

    One religion in particular is striving to make itself a political force with intentions of dominating our democracy to change it to a theocracy. Thank god they are still a minority.

    Mitt has demonstrated he’s not only a Mormon bigot but a very confused Mormon bigot who would sell his soul to the religious right just to get elected.. It’s not a ‘flip-flop’ but rather a ‘flip-suck’.

  • I have to agree with Atrios – it’s athiests who truly understand the meaning and significance of religious freedom in America.

  • Swan, your “dual-use” statements above are both confused and confusing, and some of the stuff is plain wrong..

    While some atheists are hostile to religion, others just take the position that while religion is not for them personally, other people can think what they want. (If there is a majority atheist opinion, it is probably the hope that religious folk would decide for themselves to give up religion.) Even atheists who personally detest religion and think that society would be better off without it still usually support the position of religious tolerance that you ascribe to liberals, because they are usually aware that they are in the minority in the US, and are thus likely to benefit more from religious tolerance and separation of church and state than from religious suppression. Thus your claim that “it’s the atheist stance on religion that religion is bad” is complete BS and is unfair to atheists in general (even if you later modified it by saying that ‘atheists’ can ‘take the liberal stance.’ Your attempt to explain this “as a label I just coined to refer to a stance on the religion-in-public-spaces issue some atheists might take, in which they do not believe in tolerance for religion” is misleading, confusing, and unhelpful.

    (Also, atheism is not so much a belief as an insistence on not having beliefs where you see no evidence.)

  • “there is exactly one person — not one percent, just one guy — who does not profess a faith in God.”

    I can think of two– Bernie Sanders and Pete Stark. Unless I’m misinformed about one of those?

  • Thank you N.Wells. Well put.

    Swan seems to be jammed up in the all-too-common fallacy that anyone can say that “Atheists believe __” (fill in the blank).

    If I don’t believe in Santa Claus, can anyone logically say anything about what I do believe? Do I believe that lighted Santas should be burned at the stake? Maybe, maybe not. Do I care if lighted Santas are on the courthouse lawn? There’s no way to know.

    FYI: Yes, I care. I like them there, because they drive some Christians nucking futs. But that’s just me.

  • “At awards ceremonies, entertainers routinely “give thanks to God” from the outset, usually to considerable applause.”

    which is why Kathy Griffin’s “suck it, jesus” snark at the schmemies was so great!

  • “What you wrote reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day- the liberal stance on religion is tolerance; it’s the atheist stance on religion that religion is bad…” — Swan

    What’s that old line… “Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt”?

  • From the Virginia Statute on Religous Freedom by Thomas Jefferson:

    “…truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.

    JFKs speech was exactly what the Founders meant when they concieved the separation of church and state, a secular government (defintion of secular: 1. Worldly rather than spiritual. 2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body)

    The speech was more pandering to the Christian Right minority in this country that, for reasons that will forever be unclear to me, have the Republican party by the short hairs…

  • Bottom line, there are tolerant atheists and dogmatic atheists. One doesn’t have to be both tolerant and and atheist or both dogmatic or an atheist.

    Maybe one of you guys can post a comment with a number of one of my comments and write in it how many lines down from the top in the comment is the line where I claimed atheists “believe” one particular thing? Guess you can’t, and all your harping on it is just esposing you guys as- uh, something- instead of making me look bad, which you seem to think you’re aces at (I can assure you, no one’s getting convinced by you).

    You guys are purposely and obviously trying to confuse people.

    One of you wrote: Thus your claim that “it’s the atheist stance on religion that religion is bad” is complete BS and is unfair to atheists in general (even if you later modified it by saying that ‘atheists’ can ‘take the liberal stance.’

    In the sentence you quote from me, I did not write “atheist” as in “Atheists believe X.” Rather, I referred to something I called “the atheist stance” which was using the word atheist as an adjective, in a novel way, not as a noun, and not to ascribe anything in particular to atheists across the board. Rather, I used the term to name a point of view that can be contrasted with the liberal point of view of telerating all religions.

    My stuff is so not as confusing as you guys are making it sound, that you are obviously just trying to make it more confusing in order to make me look bad and to confuse people.

  • and all your harping on it is just esposing you guys as

    Sorry, this is supposed to be “exposing.”

    And when I said atheists can take the liberal stance, I was using “atheist” in the original sense of the word- the sense that has to do with believing or not believing in God- so I did not contradict myself when I said “it’s the atheist stance on religion that religion is bad” prior to that, and used the term atheist in a totally different sense.

    Really obvious that you guys are trying to misunderstand things, here.

  • Do I dare jump back into this…by questioning or offering an opinion on a dialogue with Swan?

    Swan – hi. I read your original comments @#2 – with your correction of “you’re” @ #4. While I was was able to follow your intent – I was somewhat confused as well.

    I would venture that if in your original post @#2, you had included in that posting your furthur explanatory paragraph from your post @#30

    “…I referred to something I called “the atheist stance” which was using the word atheist as an adjective, in a novel way, not as a noun, and not to ascribe anything in particular to atheists across the board. Rather, I used the term to name a point of view that can be contrasted with the liberal point of view…”

    Then, your thoughts would have been more understandable. A few months back, I had asked a question, putting aside all the troll jibber-jabber – your followup explanation made quite clear your meaning. And I sincerely thank you for that.
    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/11206.html#comment-247154

    Your final statement in post @#30, “…obvious that you guys are ….”. I disagree. I venture that if you take their comments in a different light – critique for clarification, go beyond any personal hits – this would put the postings / diaglogue into a more congenial light.

  • Swan @ 29:

    Maybe one of you guys can post a comment with a number of one of my comments and write in it how many lines down from the top in the comment is the line where I claimed atheists “believe” one particular thing?

    Happy to oblige. Here is Swan @ 2:

    if you[‘]r[e] for taking away people’s religion or you think people’s right to believe in what they want is less important than the gains that would be made by abandoning religion, your really an atheist

    You did not qualify that, or allow for exceptions.

  • Swan, the bottom line is, you misrepresented atheism and atheists. Accidentally, I’m certain, but none the less. We have every right to be upset by that, particularly with the weak rationalizations you keep throwing at us trying to redefine what you actually said.

    Atheists are often sensitive about this kind of thing, and if you were being fair you would acknowledge that we have a right to be. Consider, for example, Bush Sr.’s statement in 1987 while on the presidential campaign trail, in which he declared that atheists should not be considered citizens or patriots.

    Again, I’m certain you didn’t mean to malign us. But you did. This would all go away if you would just appologize for your mistake and then drop the matter.

  • From Swan #1.
    “the liberal stance on religion is tolerance; it’s the atheist stance on religion that religion is bad. If your for religious tolerance within limits needed to govern a safe and free society, your a liberal; if your for taking away people’s religion or you think people’s right to believe in what they want is less important than the gains that would be made by abandoning religion, your really an atheist as that ideology relates to the issue of the state’s relation to practice of religion, not a liberal.”

    You then soften this with the bit about atheists being able to take a liberal stance, but up to that point it reads:
    atheist stance = bad (no exceptions, no redefinition from the standard meaning of “atheist”)
    atheist = taking away people’s religion (no qualifications, as Zeitgeist noted)
    atheism = not a liberal (still no exceptions so far)

    Part of the problem here is that you may not be adequately informed. I’m an atheist, and you are telling me what I presumably think, but you haven’t properly characterized what I think at all.

    Another part is that you perhaps aren’t saying quite what you mean (it is sometimes hard to tell): you are using “atheist” as an imprecise label for “anti-religious”, even though you turn around and acknowledge that some atheists (one of your senses) don’t actually hold ‘atheist’ views (in your other sense).

    This solution to both of these problems, please, is to make fewer and more thoughtful posts, which would be much more appreciated by your audience.

  • Damn, while I was blasting out a post, Shade tail and N.Wells said things that were much more constructive. But here it is anyway.

    It seemed to me that he said that atheists want to “take away people’s religions” (as if that was even possible) and/or he’s saying that atheists think people’s rights to “believe in what they want” are “less important than the gains that would be made” by “abandoning” (“taking away”?) [their] religion.

    To me, that says he thinks some or all atheists want to enforce atheism like some Christians tried to enforce Christianity back in the dark ages. And if that’s what he’s saying, then I gotta say that’s simply paranoid BS. Asking that (for example) our currency not include religious doctrine is not the same as asking that people “give up their religions”. Unfortunately not many Christians understand this, but all they have to do is imagine how it would feel if the dollar said “In Baal We Trust”.

  • Zeitgeist at number 32, again, that was me using the word “atheist” as a description of a point of view on religion’s relation to the state, not as a description of the exclusive ideology of atheists as a class of people. I did qualify that statement in the original comments and in subsequent comments after you whackos started complaining.

    So again, you’re just making stuff up.

    And again, people who read my comments every day are never going to buy the spin you are trying to put in this- this is just like a couple of months ago when you guys went after me hardcore on this site and on Kevin Drum’s site, and ultimately had to give it up. You are just showing yourselves up as insincere blog commenters.

  • near as i can tell, swan, half of the regulars have opposed you lately, so i’m not sure who it is “not buying” the “spin” (although i’m not really spinning anything.)

    you can go all ad hominem and accuse me of making stuff up all you want when i quote your own posts; readers can look at your posts and mine and draw their own conclusions. i’ll take my chances.

    but i will give you one hint: most people probably aren’t going to buy the notion that you can make words (like “atheist”) mean whatever you like. i find indeterminacy of language theories intellectually fun, but in practice language needs to have some determinacy.

    but hey, if thems the rules, all references to God or other deities really mean “Zeitgeist.”

  • Swan: And again, people who read my comments every day are never going to buy the spin you are trying to put in this- this is just like a couple of months ago when you guys went after me hardcore on this site and on Kevin Drum’s site, and ultimately had to give it up.

    Man, Swan, you really seem to have a problem just saying, “My bad.” How can you talk about those who are rightly criticizing you as spinning when you come up with spin like this to wheedle out of what you actually wrote:

    I also used the term atheist in a different way, as a label I just coined

    I just use the term atheist to distinguish from what the real liberal p.o.v. is [and you can authoritatively state the “real liberal p.o.v. how?] and to show that it is not necessarily anything that has to do with promoting atheism.

    making me look bad, which you seem to think you’re aces at (I can assure you, no one’s getting convinced by you). [Oh, I don’t know, they might be convincing me, but you’re actually much more convincing yourself.]

    Rather, I referred to something I called “the atheist stance” which was using the word atheist as an adjective, in a novel way…

    you are obviously just trying to make it more confusing in order to make me look bad and to confuse people. [Again, Swan, if anybody’s making you look bad it’s you yourself. What is with your self-righteous victim complex?]

    And when I said atheists can take the liberal stance, I was using “atheist” in the original sense of the word- the sense that has to do with believing or not believing in God- so I did not contradict myself when I said “it’s the atheist stance on religion that religion is bad” prior to that, and used the term atheist in a totally different sense…Really obvious that you guys are trying to misunderstand things, here.

    WTF? So you use the term atheist in “the original sense of the word,” “in a totally different sense,” “as an adjective, in a novel way,” and “in a different way, as a label I just coined.” And then you accuse those who are trying to unscrew your inscrutableness as trying to purposely confuse people and make you look bad?

    Even after all this desperate spin people still quite respectfully try to comment on your desperate spinning and you accuse them of attacking you. What is your problem?

    I’ve got an idea: STFU.

  • Romney wants us to believe that he is a man of strong religious conviction and that he will subordinate that conviction to the sovereign authority of law. But that’s a lie. A servant cannot serve two masters. Either he is a man of great religious conviction who will be guided and informed buy that conviction, or he is not.

    If he is a man of conviction, then he should show the courage of his convictions and promise to let his conscience be his guide.

    If he is not, then he should not be trusted.

    The sad fact is that Mitt Romney believes that he can subordinate his convictions while in office. If we are to believe his current rhetoric, he must have substantially subordinated his beliefs while governor of Massachusetts.

    That speaks to a shallow sort of conviction. There may be much to gain form pandering to potential voters, but there is little personal virtue in such plastic principles. Romney seems to have replaced his moral compass with a weather vane. And a man who blows with the wind will find himself lost and broken in a storm.

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