The backwards defense for destroying the torture tapes

Late last week, we learned that the CIA destroyed videos of U.S. officials torturing detainees. The administration has said the destruction was necessary to protect the identity of those doing the torturing — a claim that no one can take seriously — while the reality-based world notes that the CIA appears to have obstructed justice.

To get a sense of what conservatives think about a scandal like this one, it’s worth considering the most recent episode of Fox News’ “Special Report with Brit Hume.” On Friday night, viewers saw a fair-and-balanced panel that consisted of conservative media personality Fred Barnes, conservative media personality Mort Kondracke, and conservative media personality Charles Krauthammer. It was quite a discussion.

Barnes, an unabashed White House toady, said it makes perfect sense to destroy evidence of torture because, “You wouldn’t want to see these tapes played on Al-Jazeera.” Well, no, I suppose it would help al Qaeda recruitment to have millions of people in the Middle East watching evidence of the CIA torturing Muslim suspects, but the answer isn’t to destroy the videos, it’s to stop the torture. Barnes nevertheless concluded that “destroying them … is the right thing to do.”

Then it was Krauthammer’s turn. He explained not only why it was right to destroy the torture tapes, but also why it was right to inflict the torture in the first place.

“According to George Tenet and to General Hayden, we got more information out of the judicious use of these harsh techniques on a very small number of suspects, the ones who knew the real stuff, in the year 2002, when America was blind and had no idea about Al-Queda, was waiting for the second shoe to drop, and that this information likely saved thousands of lives.

If that is the case, this is the one example, the one exception where I think everybody would agree if you ever are going to use a harsh technique, it would be in these specific circumstances.

So on the issue of the actual interrogation, I think it was a good faith in destroying the tapes — yes, because it is not a pretty thing, and you don’t want it on You Tube.

After a brief chat with Barnes, Krauthammer lamented the fact that detainees won’t get tortured anymore “when a Democrat becomes president.”

The truly frightening thing about the discussion is that the participants seemed oblivious to how insane they sounded.

In response to the Fox News panel, Andrew Sullivan explained, “So there you have it: the government has a right to torture when it feels like it and the right to destroy the evidence because it would incriminate them and hurt the image of the United States.”

That may sound ridiculous, but that really was the argument, articulated on national television, by leading conservative pundits on the Republicans’ national cable network. It’s okay to destroy incriminating evidence, if it might incriminate you and make your country look bad. Except, that’s not a defense for criminal activity; it’s an admission of additional criminal activity. White House sycophants aren’t supposed to admit lunacy like this as part of a defense; they’re supposed to deny it and come up with something coherent.

I was also struck by Krauthammer’s argument that “everybody would agree” that the circumstances of torturing a man like Zubaydah are justified. I have no idea what Krauthammer could be talking about. Was there a ticking time bomb? No. Was this a Jack-Bauer scenario? No. Did Zubaydah have critical information about an immediate threat? No.

As Kevin Drum noted, the tapes would have shown that “we had brutally tortured an al-Qaeda operative who was (a) unimportant and low-ranking, (b) mentally unstable, (c) had no useful information, and (d) eventually spewed out an endless series of worthless, fantastical ‘confessions’ under duress.” Charles Krauthammer, a columnist for the Washington Post and a major figure in the mainstream media, thinks that “everybody would agree” torture is justified here. It really is like living in a Twilight Zone episode.

Sullivan concluded:

[W]hen you look at what torture has done already to the United States, we see that every bad scenario that those of us who oppose torture feared has actually come about. And we have no independent evidence that it has solved anything, or saved any lives, except the self-serving statements of those who authorized it. And the truth is: we will probably never know. If they are cynical and brazen enough to destroy incriminating tapes, they are cynical and brazen enough to destroy any evidence within the executive branch that could prove that their torture policy has failed. If this isn’t a form of tyranny, annexed to torture, what is? And if the executive branch can simply get away with it, and have serious commentators defend the president’s trashing of the Constitution as necessary to fulfill his oath of office, we really have left the rule of law behind in the ditch.

Painful, but true.

Please CB, at least you should strive to be fair and balanced – you call those “pundits” conservative when they are in actuality medieval! -Kevo

  • What I’m wondering though, is whether anyone is surprised and if so, why? Anytime a criminal enterprise is coming to an end there’s bound to be some tidying up. With another full year in office there will no doubt be quite a bit more “evidence” destroyed, and more ridiculous reasons touted for doing so.

  • like my mother always told me, if you would be embarrassed if someone found out what you were doing, maybe you shouldn’t have been doing it in the first place…………

  • Anytime a criminal enterprise is coming to an end there’s bound to be some tidying up.

    Yes, they’re probably working those document shredders 24/7 already. Look in the next few months for the White House to have a completely unprecedented simultaneous crash of every hard drive on every server, workstation and laptop.

  • “The truly frightening thing about the discussion….”

    The truly frightening thing about this discussion is seeing that hideous face of the failed Harry Reid glowering out at me every time I read an article here (it’s in the lefthand panel).

    If he wouldn’t cave every time Bush wants something, it would be more pleasant to read/think/talk politics. Reid (and Pelosi) makes it worth…less.

  • Jimmy Carter’s wife when asked her view of the Reagan presidency said, “They make us comfortable with our prejudices.” The last seven years, with the able help of Fox Faux News, has not only made the right-wing comfortable with its darkest side, but has given it permission to wear the basest, vilest, most bellicose beliefs on its sleeves. Those descending into madness lose their moorings and begin to think their rants and delusions make sense. In this case, they no longer think there is anything wrong with torture, or covering it up, or destroying evidence. That’s how far the goal posts have been moved in Bush’s two administrations. Racists, nativist, homophobic ravings are all also OK now, and you don’t have to be quiet about what you really think anymore.

    The American stageset of humanism, democracy, tolerance, pluralism, and decency has been struck. We are no better than any other imperial power ever was, and are arguably worse. We have finally exposed ourselves for what we are, and the rest of the world can nod its head saying, “we always knew they were frauds.”

  • it is not a pretty thing, and you don’t want it on You Tube”

    Yeah, torturing people is “not pretty”. And because torture is so offensive we designate it as a special kind of “not pretty”. We call offenses like that “illegal”, and then we pass all kinds of pesky laws, so that these ugly acts can be stopped as often as possible. And what do you know, the laws require evidence, and proitection thereof. But I guess these “conservative” commentators are fine with another president, say Mrs. Clinton, having the power to break the law and then destroy evidence to cover up the lawlessness?

    Is that their position?

    Can someone please ask them if these new face-saving clauses which allow obstruction of justice apply to Democrats? Could we now argue that Bill Clinton had to lie about his BJ because it was not a “pretty” thing he wanted exposed?

    Shameless hacks.

  • All the panel needed to make it balanced was Nancy Pelosi.
    I would have enjoyed hearing rage against the torturing of prisoners of war.

  • What we are witnessing over and over again isn’t necessarily new – it is simply the mindset, actions, and reactions of an insular sub-culture going about its business working within their own parameters thinking everything is fine. Unfortunately, in this case some of the players in the current Bush administration and their champions have raised the stakes and have gone off the charts in their “crazy” thinking – leaving us with ghastly actions, insane reactions, and potentially horrific consequences.

    Often, these sub-cultures simply give the public some cynical amusement and fodder for their dismissal. Sometimes these sub-cultures really do damage in their myopic quest to achieve their “goals.” Who can ever forget the insane inanity uttered by that Viet Nam era American Army general who stated that we had to destroy the village to save it. The really crazy part of this kind of “crazy” thinking is that within his own sub-culture context what he said made absolute sense and he believed that his actions, his reactions, and his thinking was absolutely right.

    Now we see another gang that can’t shoot straight and can’t see any forest and maybe not even any trees because they are so blinded by their context. In this case, however, the consequences of their “craziness” are absolutely grave and its scope so ubiquitous that the whole world is effected and in danger.

    As the stakes raise the outrageousness increases and the sheer “craziness” evolves to the absurd – as in this group of “right” thinking men on national television justifying law breaking and obstruction of justice.

    Eventually the insanity has to stop because it just gets to be too heavy to maintain the ridiculous inanity – either that or the “craziness” just goes to the next level of total oppression where all pretense is abandoned and one either joins in the “crazy” thinking or is simply removed.

  • Not an original observation but always worth a reminder:

    Sociopath: a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

    “The truly frightening thing about the discussion is that the participants seemed oblivious to how insane they sounded.” – Mr. CB

    The reality of the situation is that they are perfectly aware of what they’re saying and they mean every word. This isn’t rhetoric. It’s an oath of allegiance to a mind set. And it’s a mindset that is hardwired. Questioning their sincerity will only prolong the illusion that they have something to contribute to a forward thinking human society.

    They don’t.

  • “…the judicious use of these harsh techniques…”

    See? It’s just a little torture.

    “… it is not a pretty thing, and you don’t want it on You Tube.”

    Unlike, say, bumfight videos, which already make America look like an outer circle of Hell.

  • Steve: as a matter of style, I think you need to start including the editorial [sic] (as you do with “Democrat party”) whenever one of these scumballs use a phrase like “harsh technique” instead of the proper word, “torture”.

    “harsh technique” is the new “collateral damage”

  • “The truly frightening thing about the discussion is that the participants seemed oblivious to how insane they sounded.”

    Yup. Every night is karaoke night.

  • I really think they’re WH stooges who believe they can convince the weak of mind and morals among their regular viewers that torture can be justified, just on the basis of whatever they want to believe about a person. That evil has become so flagrantly, openly arrogant is one of the most alarming things about America I’ve ever seen. And its source sits in the White House.

  • That “the participants seemed oblivious to how insane they sounded” is not at all spurprising to me. Nutso people rarely recognize their own insanity, and as long as there is a willing audience, and just as importantly, an employer that reinforces and encourages their insanity, I’m sure they will continue to think that they are operating entirely within the bounds of normalacy.

  • CB,
    It really pains me when you include in your discussions statements such as ” Was there a ticking time bomb? No. Was this a Jack-Bauer scenario?” baecause that is buying into arguments which are totally beside the point. In my country, THIS country, there is NEVER a justification for torture.

    If you torture someone, then you should be prosecuted under the law, and a jury can decide whether you are guilty or not. Torture is immoral, illegal and un-American, whatever the circumstances, and continually framing the morality of torture by citing the non-existence of certain circumstances or exigencies undermines your own argument against it.

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