Meet John Kiriakou

There have been many, many reports in recent years about Bush administration officials torturing detainees, and using barbaric tactics like waterboarding, but insiders have been reluctant to admit publicly and on the record exactly what we’ve done and to whom.

It’s one of several reasons why John Kiriakou’s perspective is of unique significance.

A former CIA officer who participated in the capture and questioning of the first al-Qaeda terrorist suspect to be waterboarded said yesterday that the harsh technique provided an intelligence breakthrough that “probably saved lives,” but that he now regards the tactic as torture.

Zayn Abidin Muhammed Hussein abu Zubaida, the first high-ranking al-Qaeda member captured after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, broke in less than a minute after he was subjected to the technique and began providing interrogators with information that led to the disruption of several planned attacks, said John Kiriakou, who served as a CIA interrogator in Pakistan.

Abu Zubaida was one of two detainees whose interrogation was captured in video recordings that the CIA later destroyed.

Kiriakou explained that Zubaydah was defiant and uncooperative, right up until the CIA tried waterboarding. At that point, Kiriakou said, “It was like flipping a switch.”

As a matter of crass politics, Kiriakou’s assessment seems to offer a little something for everyone. For the right, Kiriakou is saying that torture produced intelligence that saved lives and thwarted possible attacks. For the left, Kiriakou is conceding that the Bush administration authorized and utilized torture (i.e., committed a felony), and he now believes the U.S. should stop using these “enhanced interrogation techniques.”

There is, however, one angle that warrants a closer look: whether torturing Zubaydah actually produced actionable intelligence. The answer is far from clear.

The torture of Abu Zubaydah has been a key White House talking point for quite a while. Last year, Bush personally discussed the interrogation in considerable detail, describing Zubaydah as “a trusted associate of Osama bin Laden,” who “had run a terrorist camp in Afghanistan where some of the 9/11 hijackers trained.”

To hear the president tell it, Zubaydah, after being subjected to an “alternative set of [interrogation] procedures,” was a font of useful information — dishing on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and at least one domestic terrorist attack in the works. Bush concluded, “Zubaydah told us that al Qaeda operatives were planning to launch an attack in the U.S., and provided physical descriptions of the operatives and information on their general location. Based on the information he provided, the operatives were detained — one while traveling to the United States.”

But there’s almost certainly more to this example. Abu Zubaydah was captured in Pakistan in March 2002. The White House has identified him as al Queda’s chief of operations. Ron Suskind reported, however, that Zubaydah turned out to be mentally ill. We were torturing a man who was, in effect, retarded.

Abu Zubaydah, his captors discovered, turned out to be mentally ill and nothing like the pivotal figure they supposed him to be. CIA and FBI analysts, poring over a diary he kept for more than a decade, found entries “in the voice of three people: Hani 1, Hani 2, and Hani 3” — a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. All three recorded in numbing detail “what people ate, or wore, or trifling things they said.” Dan Coleman, then the FBI’s top al-Qaeda analyst, told a senior bureau official, “This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality.”

Abu Zubaydah also appeared to know nothing about terrorist operations; rather, he was al-Qaeda’s go-to guy for minor logistics — travel for wives and children and the like. That judgment was “echoed at the top of CIA and was, of course, briefed to the President and Vice President,” Suskind writes. And yet somehow, in a speech delivered two weeks later, President Bush portrayed Abu Zubaydah as “one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States.” And over the months to come, under White House and Justice Department direction, the CIA would make him its first test subject for harsh interrogation techniques. […]

“I said he was important,” Bush reportedly told Tenet at one of their daily meetings. “You’re not going to let me lose face on this, are you?” “No sir, Mr. President,” Tenet replied. Bush “was fixated on how to get Zubaydah to tell us the truth,” Suskind writes, and he asked one briefer, “Do some of these harsh methods really work?” Interrogators did their best to find out, Suskind reports. They strapped Abu Zubaydah to a water-board, which reproduces the agony of drowning. They threatened him with certain death. They withheld medication. They bombarded him with deafening noise and harsh lights, depriving him of sleep. Under that duress, he began to speak of plots of every variety — against shopping malls, banks, supermarkets, water systems, nuclear plants, apartment buildings, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Statue of Liberty. With each new tale, “thousands of uniformed men and women raced in a panic to each … target.” And so, Suskind writes, “the United States would torture a mentally disturbed man and then leap, screaming, at every word he uttered.”

At this point, I have no idea who’s right about this. Either Zubaydah was an unstable schizophrenic who had no useful intelligence at all, or Zubaydah was a valuable al Qaeda asset who offered key information that saved lives. I have no reason to suspect that Kiriakou is intentionally trying to deceive anyone, though I would add that Kiriakou was not personally involved in torturing Zubaydah, but was part of an interrogation team that questioned him in a hospital in Pakistan after he was captured in 2002. I mention this because, it’s possible that Kiriakou was told Zubaydah produced actionable intelligence, when the truth might be the opposite.

Either way, Kiriakou has made it clear that the Bush administration did violate the law and tortured a suspect, and that he no longer believes the United States should engage in such deplorable behavior.

You had the answer in your previous post: “The #1 Rule for the Bush Administration: If they say something, don’t believe them.”

  • Considering how much the Bush administration has politicized and publicized other ‘thwarted attacks’, if they had stopped something truly important with actionable intelligence, I think we’d have been hearing all about it from Bush himself since the ‘success’, and not from a CIA operative long after the fact.

  • I suspect that there is something else going on here. Kiriakou’s interview strikes me as more of a semi-official CIA effort to get out in front of the issue of torture, and not some sort of mea culpa or smoking gun. Here are the reasons I think that:

    1) He gave the mildest description possible of what waterboading is. He called it torture, but note the differences between the procedure he described, and the one described by Malcolm Nance. I’m sure how one can induce the gag reflex using cellophane as described. I think this might be an attempt to define torture down to the point where Americans can agree that it’s acceptable to torture.

    2) Reinforcing point 1, note all of the methods that Kiriakou did not describe. He mentioned using a single slap to the belly, and he mentioned waterboarding. He allowed that there were a number of other procedures that could be authorized, but was extremely vague in talking about them. Sleep deprivation was mentioned, with no description. Nothing about stress positions. Nothing about induced hypothermia. Nothing, in short, about any of the things that would interfere with the message of point 1.

    3) We get the scariest possible rendition of who Abu Zubaydah is. A remorseless killer. A highly placed al Qaeda operative with current knowledge of dozens of al Qaeda operations then planned or in progress. He is, in short, the kind of guy that needs to be tortured. This is very different from the description in Ron Suskind’s book, of an Abu Zubaydah who was borderline retarded, mostly out of the loop, and who sent the CIA one numerous wild goose chases with his false confessions.
    4) He described a process of deciding to torture people that was numbingly bureaucratic in its methods of authorization. This just strikes me as implausible. You use it as evidence linking higher-ups to torture. I don’t disagree that they are culpable, but I don’t think that’s the point here. What Kiriakou is doing is furthering the idea of complete reasonableness, with torture being something that couldn’t slip out of control. There are no worries of excesses. It isn’t going to go beyond the things that we have demonstrated are bad, but really aren’t that bad.

    I realize that this is a nutty conspiracy theory, and I refer to Teresa Nielsen Hayden’s comments about this administration and nutbar conspiracy theories. There is, however, an interesting test coming. The administration has gone on and on and on about how they can’t talk about specific interrogations, or specific interrogation methods, because they are classified. We don’t want our enemies to know about them. So, do they push to prosecute Kiriakou? I’m guessing they don’t.

  • So this guy gets to waltz out and tell the world about what he saw in spookville, and faces no prosecution? They don’t destroy his family somehow?

    And he tells us they stopped lots of attacks, which BushCo haven’t trumpeted yet, when they played up other “successes” which were so shaky that they were downright laughable?

    Potted. Plant.

  • When this story broke yesterday, it appeared that Kiriakou had witnessed the waterboarding. I just went over to the ABC site to see if they go the story right. They did. They make it clear that Kiriakou was not part of the team that waterboarded.

    What’s going on here? My guess is that the CIA is circling the wagons. They don’t wan any of their own to take a fall for Junior and Dead-eye. Kiriakou is out there trying establish the claim that while the technique is torture, it did produce results. That is he trying to establish extenuating circumstances which might lessen any punishment the CIA torture team may be given.

    If I am right about the CIA circling the wagons, all that need be done is to keep the pressure on the CIA and they’ll eventually offer up Junior and Dead-eye.

  • What has happened to Abu Zubaydah? Did the CIA kill him after he “confessed”? Throw him back out on the streets of Pakistan? Order a trial for him and use the “evidence” revealed in his response to being tortured?

    What happens to ALL individuals tortured by the US?

  • The whole discussion overlooks what the national feeling is going to be when American prisoners are waterboarded, or worse – and confess in broadly available media to a variety of horrible offenses that will shake the country to its foundations. The fact remains that someone who is subjected to a technique that frightens them like waterboarding does, and is so motivated to avoid repetition, will confess to anything – they could have gotten Abu Zubaydah to take responsibility for Pearl Harbor. Likewise, Master-Sergeant insert-name-here will confess to burning Iraqi prisoners alive if he thinks it will avoid another session on the waterboard. Remember the captured pilots paraded on TV during the first Gulf War, who confessed to bombing civilian targets and expressed remorse for their crimes – and who had visibly been beaten up? What was the Western feeling about that? Outrage and disgust.

    The whole thing hinges on whether or not the prisoner actually DID something, actually KNOWS something. If you were sure of that, there wouldn’t be any requirement to torture him to establish that fact. It’s just as senseless and random as dunking to establish the presence of witchcraft.

  • U.S. interrogation techniques are NOT torture, period. Those who are saying differently are incompetent or asserting propaganda for political benefit at the cost of American citizens. No, matter your political party affiliation, and setting aside your thoughts on issues. We all need to remember what it is to be an American Citizen. We need to make sure our elected representatives obey their Oath of Office and keep their Oath of Allegiance. See http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl Know whom you are voting for.

  • I don’t give a rat’s ass if waterboarding is torture or not. If it saves lives then use it. Imagine if your mother, father, brother or sister gets killed by one of these terrorist. After your loved ones are killed in a terrorist attack you find out that this could have been prevented if US could have used water-boarding technique. Wouldn’t you allow the govt to use it to save your loved ones lives.

    My answer is use whatever means to get whatever information you need to save my family members lives PERIOD.

    If you have beef with the Bush administration so, be it but don’t try to politicize the techniques used by US government that saves lives. Don’t try to take away effective tools that the US govt have that saves American lives.

    I come from a third world country, I come from India, I am US Citizen. You guys in America think just because you stop waterboarding, other Muslim countries will stop torturing if they get a hold of one of our American troops. The answer is NO. They will still cut-off your head. So, stop trying to think that you are trying to set a good example by not torturing.

    If waterboarding is torture then its the most humane form of torture. If a Muslim terrorist has any information that can endanger my family’s security I want the US govt to use whatever means possible to safeguard my family PERIOD.

    Bottom line is Waterboarding works and if you left wing lunatics think its torture so, be it. This waterboarding technique has probably saved many left wing lunatic’s family members.

    And you CNN, MSNBC keep fanning the flames of this useless debate just because you media outlets are trying to get your Democrat Party guys in power during the next presidential year elections. This is about getting your Democrat party nominee in power. You CNN, MSNBC, NBC, CBS folks you guys think you guys are progrssive thinkers by objecting to waterboarding, but we clearly see throught this crap, you guys are trying to keep this issue in the fore-front to get your Democrat Party nominee elected, that’s all you guys are trying to do.

  • Here is how I see it. Human life is sacred…even scumbag terrorists. Torturing another human being for ANY reason is immoral, illegal and just plain wrong.

    From a practical stance, most people subjected to torture will say ANYTHING to make it stop. Also, if we do it, then we can’t very well get all huffy when others do it.

    And while I am at it, there is NO sovereign nation of terrorists, so we cannot be at war. All this crap about enemy combatants is a smoke screen, hiding the truth that our government is violating international (and constitutional) law. Terrorists are CRIMINALS and should be prosecuted in criminal courts. Yes, this means that some of them will get off because they hire good lawyers or the evidence is not strong enough. But many will be locked up. That is how the system works. Holding people indefinitely without criminal charges, access to counsel or the “evidence” against them violates the basic structure of our society. We cannot become safer by becoming more like those whose actions we despise.

    Look, we nab drug lords, mobsters, human traffickers and other assorted scum all the time. Remember the Oklahoma bombings? Terrorists. Yet, somehow we managed to bring the bastards to justice. Remember the FIRST terrorist attach on the World Trade Center? Somehow we managed to find the mastermind and bring him to trial. The system worked. Yet, somehow the government wants us to believe that suddenly we have to violate our own laws in order to protect our laws?

    And by the way, it is because of decades of interventionist policies that we find ourselves at this point. People don’t fly planes into buildings because we have more stuff than they do. They lash out because we put our military in their countries. They lash out because we fund coups or assassinate their leaders. They lash out in the only way they can when faced with the overpowering might of our military in their lands.

    Don’t get me wrong, blowing up innocent people is deplorable. I’m just saying that they aren’t doing it for the reasons our government wants us to believe.

    The point is, don’t get so caught up in the trivial points of the debate that you lose site of the larger picture.

  • Dennis wrote: “So, stop trying to think that you are trying to set a good example by not torturing.”

    Setting a ‘good example’ is hardly the biggest concern a lot of Americans have about torture. I suppose you think that we’ll ‘only’ torture terrorists in cases of life and death circumstances? Who does that include? Only foreigners? Suspicious Americans with dark skin (say, born in India, which is not free of terrorist acts)? What circumstances are life and death? Bombings? Political assassinations? Your neighbor reporting you to the government as a guy who looks suspicious?

    You basically want to give the government freedom to painfully torture anyone they want, which includes you and your family, on the off chance that they MIGHT catch someone somewhere doing SOMETHING that MIGHT cause harm. If you’re that afraid of being hurt by a terrorist, maybe you should move to a nice totalitarian country that tortures with impunity and has a patent disregard for civil liberties, like Russia (what’s that? They STILL get terrorist attacks there? Strange).

  • Those who believe that torture should be a lawful government action really need to relocate to countries that practice it freely. Torture of any kind is AGAINST THE LAW, international and American law.

    It is beyond ridiculous to argue that waterboarding is not torture. There’s no opinion to be traded in this matter, just fact.

  • I always enjoy how the pro-torture crowd always ends up taking my family and my morality as rhetorical hostages and then complain about terrorism.

    Scared, empty people, but I still have to share my city, my nation with them. I just wish we would stop electing them.

    Fear and bad grammar. That’s how our republic will end.

  • Todd wrote: “Fear and bad grammar. That’s how our republic will end.”

    In other words, our Republic will end not with a bang, but with a bunch of wimps.

  • My employer requires me to sign a “CA”aka confidentiality agreement that has financial penalties if broken. As an American citizen, I do not expect, nor do I want to know what the CIA, FBI or any other security force protecting what is in the best interest of this country. Now, John Kiriakou former CIA agent, publicly explans what was necessary to protect my family and how he felt about it.
    John Kiriakou, here is how I feel about it, “there should be penalties in the Federal Governments’ “CA”, penalties that includes prison time for such offenses as you are committing.” It is high treason to your country and all the men and women with whom you worked and those who serve this country. The terrorist of this world know America does not have the stomach to win a war against terrorism today.
    Meet John Kiriakou on Larry King live, next Monday night, as he talks about his new book entitled, “Desert Waterboarding in Gitmo.”
    notetaker

  • Those who torture others for any reason, including waterboarding, under US law must be brought to trial where they may plead for clemency by proving that the torture produced information that was acted on and prevented a horrendous attack on some segment of the US.

    Clemency is available after the fact, not before the fact.

    This is true for any lawbreaking by any government official, even a president. He may break the law, and then explain why, prove what it accomplished, and ask for clemency from the people.

  • The people who argue about the ticking time bomb sceanario and the 24/Jack Bauer person doing whatever it takes to stop the event from happening miss the point. Even with torture being illegal, if there really was a ticking time bomb event, a person could do what Jack Bauer did and torture where neccessary and, like Jack Bauer, understand that they will be charged with a crime for it. The hope would be that if lives truly were saved, the court would offer some leniency for your crime.

    The reason for keeping torture illegal in any form is to ensure that it will only be done when there is no other choice because the person doing it knows that they will be prosecuted for it.

  • The torture issue is really part a larger and more serious problem this country faces right now. Our Constitutional rights are being subverted by our own government. Remember, a power not specifically granted to a particular branch of the federal government is a power that branch does not rightfully possess. Many things the government now routinely does violate the Constitution.

    But most of us don’t really KNOW what the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights and all the other ammendments) says. Read it. Study it. Understand it. If you do, you will realize how much of what the government does violates the Constitution.

    The War in Iraq is a good example. According to the Constitution, Congress, not the President, declares war. Every major conflict our government has engaged in since Korea has been illegal because there was no formal declaration of war from the Congress. Instead, memebers of Congress have chosen to avoid the sticky issue of formalized war by allowing the executive branch to initiate wars. There is absolutely no constitutional basis for this.

    Since the Great Depression we have favored bigger and bigger government…especially the Executive branch. The founding fathers NEVER intended for the government to nationalize education, collect data on its own citizens, listen in on phone conversations, imprison people without due process of law, tell you how to behave, etc.

    This is a direct result of growing the size of the federal government. Every time we create a new govenment agency, even in an attempt to do good, we increase the size and scope of the beaurocracy and allow it to intrude more deeply into our lives. We even come to think of this as normal and necessary. “The government knows best”…”we need the government to protect us from all those bad people out there”…”well, perhaps torture is ok if the government says it is for a higher good.” Crap! Don’t be fooled. We need less government, not more. We need higher moral standards, no lower.

    Ben Franklin once wrote (paraphrasing here) he who gives up a little liberty for a little security deserves neither and will lose both. Old Ben understood way back then. A strong centralized government was in direct opposition to liberty. That is why the founding fathers created a republic with a weak executive branch. They saw clearly that too much power at the center is bad for the people.

  • Say, Dennis; why don’t you just kill everyone on earth who isn’t American? That ought to protect your dear old mammy and your family.

    All the hand-wringers who moan about the way the U.S. has slid to the level of a dictatorship, lost every bit of admiration it worked hard for generations to build and blew off any chance of being able to argue anything from a position of moral superiority for years to come; all those who wonder how that sequence of events could have taken place…..should be directed to your comment.

  • I have never posted a comment on a blog or forum before. But this topic has really hit a nerve for me.

    This waterboarding discussion is rubbish. First off – it is not torture. I believe I have a unique perspective on this subject because I have been the recipient of waterboarding when I served in the US military and attended SERE school. We teach our own how to waterboard and what it feels like to be waterboarded. Yes, it is unpleasant, and yes, you feel like you are drowning; but there is no permanent damage – and most importantly – IT WORKS! If we collect valuable information that will protect our lives by this technique – I support it 100%. And ask yourself – why is it taught and administered to our own troops in a prisoner-of-war preparatory school? Shouldn’t our Congress know that this is done to our own troops – and has been for years? So why all the fuss now? Aha! – it’s close to election time, folks!

    If you want a good read on this subject, please check this out: Waterboarding – A SERE-ing experience

    To all of you who react so strongly to this – and other related topics – how many of you understand where your freedom comes from? It is not a right, it is a blessing – it is something that has been and must continue to be fought for. Why do you think there have been no follow up attacks on American soil since 911? Do you believe that Al Qeada (or any other group you want to name) hasn’t tried, that they were satisfied with 911? And why do you think we have been able to prevent it? Now – I am not a Bush supporter – but I understand that freedom and protection come at a price – a price most of you who complain about this waterboarding would never begin to consider paying. You’re too comfortable in the superiority of your beliefs and morals. You believe that a higher intellect allows you to pass judgment – and keeps you separated from having to sacrifice anything for the comforts you so willingly enjoy. Yet, you have probably never been in a position to consider what you would do if you had to defend or protect those you loved from someone who was totally committed to taking them from you. Where would you draw the line?

  • “If we collect valuable information that will protect our lives by this technique…”
    And, if my aunt had a packeage…
    How many people need to be tortured for you to feel secure? Does it even matter if some of them are not “terrorsists”?

  • One key fact missing in all these interviews with this guy is that the CIA was not the first to interrogate Zubaydah. It was the FBI. According to reports all of the useful information was obtained from Zubaydah using rapport building and criminal interrogation techniques. The FBI interrogators said that Zubaydah wanted to tell them his story and was bragging about what he did. When Tenent found out that it wasn’t the CIA obtaining this info, he ordered a CIA team in to take over. At that point is where they implemented there so called “rough” techniques and Zubaydah clammed up. Once they started torturing him, he did speak again as this guy says he did but according to other CIA agents 90% of it was garbage.

    Isn’t it convenient that this guy, who wasn’t there, is parading around telling a story that waterboarding (torture) was a success? This is nothing more that a spin job to provide cover to the CIA about destroying evidence. Amazing that this is where our country is today: defending torture.

  • hey there torture-fans, one simple question:

    what if the man you are torturing turns out to be innocent?

    you can replace “torture” with “rendition” or “Carpet bomb” if you like… same question.

    you people are brainwashed moronic brutes… listening to your pathetic opinions is torturous indeed.

  • The right argues about torture. The left points it out and screams about it. We are not finding a middle ground. We have left behind our international consensus points and are losing credibility with the international community. We no longer comply with the Geneva Conventions. We use rhetoric to define someone as worthy of torture and then say that it’s not torture with rhetoric.
    Let’s suppose for a second that torture is ethically ok. Now, when would you do it? Personally, I know that torture is NOT ok. I would call induced hypothermia and loud music over long periods of time almost torture, and definitely not complicit with the Geneva Conventions.
    However, as an individual, if I only had myself to rely on, and I needed to get a family member or close friend out of the clutches of a clandestine group that I had very little knowledge of…yeah, you got it. You know what I would do. I’d be extremely good at it too. No mercy. I’d then be a criminal, sacrificing my life/morals for the life of someone I held very dear.
    Now, I expect a lot more from a large organization that has lots of resources. As a member of the United States armed forces, I’m extremely good at my job. I’m a professional of the highest order. The CIA’s torture of detainees is despicable. It goes against everything I believe we stand for as a country. It is sloppy, incompetent, and lazy. You couldn’t get that intelligence in the myriad of other methods you have at your disposal? You’re just being a jerk, and I’m not going to stand for it. The resource poor individual above can’t do things any other way. It’s terrible. The organization is stooping down to something which should be below their level.
    Now, the problem is that this behavior is policy. I’m hoping that this will change in the next elections, which should be landslide if the American people have any morals whatsoever.

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