Who can beat McCain? And who can McCain beat?

As the presidential campaign has unfolded, I imagine most Dems have been looking at the Republican field, sizing them up for a general election campaign. Regardless of merit or qualifications, some of these guys would be more formidable than others. Dems, of course, aren’t exactly in a position to influence the outcome — we have our own contest to worry about — but who the GOP chooses as its nominee might be relevant to who the Dems pick as theirs.

Of course, it’s a subjective guessing game. From where I sit, I would worry a lot less if Republicans nominated Fred Thompson (too much like Bush), Mitt Romney (too much like a Ken doll), Rudy Giuliani (too imbalanced), or Ron Paul (too much like Ron Paul). I worry slightly more about Mike Huckabee, despite his glaring flaws, because he’s likeable and charming. I worry most about John McCain, who is perceived, falsely, as a moderate.

TNR’s Jonathan Chait argued that Hillary Clinton’s success in New Hampshire makes McCain’s rise more likely.

The odds of a Republican presidency suddenly got a lot higher. There’s really only one potential matchup that would give the GOP a better than even chance of winning: John McCain versus Hillary Clinton. McCain is a popular personality who can attract the support of voters who aren’t inclined to support his party. Clinton is an unpopular personality who loses the support of voters who are otherwise inclined to support her party. If she wins the nomination, it will be because she’s a polarizing figure who rallies Democrats as the object of Republican attacks.

Kevin Drum offers the opposite perspective.

There are two things that keep me from being worried about a Clinton vs. McCain matchup. The first is that this simply looks to be a Democratic year. Tick off the reasons: Americans don’t like to keep a single political party in the White House for more than eight years (it’s only happened once in the postwar era). The war in Iraq is unpopular. The economy is sinking. The 9/11 effect has worn off. Conservatives are tired and plainly lack new ideas.

Second, I don’t think McCain is nearly as attractive a candidate as a lot of people think. Again, tick off the reasons: He’s 72 years old. He’s a dead-ender for the war. (Do you think “a million years in Iraq” will play well with moderates in November?) A lot of his independent cred has been shredded over the past couple of years. He’ll get evangelical votes, but he won’t get their enthusiastic support, the way George Bush did. Ditto for nativist votes. He’s got a long, very conservative voting record that’s never really been exposed to a national audience. The Keating Five scandal will get revisited. Press ardor for McCain will likely diminish as his campaign becomes less open, as it’s bound to do.

I’m torn, but I’m leaning in Chait’s direction.

I’m willing to discount all the early polling about hypothetical general election match-ups. If national primary polls are meaningless, and I think they are, then national general election polls are even less helpful.

I’m far more concerned about perceptions. Yes, McCain is old, but he’s a “youthful” 72, and age doesn’t always make a difference (Reagan), particularly when people are afraid. His position on Iraq is ridiculous, and has been for years, but he’s perceived as an authority on military matters**. There’s considerable distaste for him in religious right circles, but I have a hunch the Dobson crowd would get over it fairly quickly if given a chance to vote against Hillary Clinton. The same goes for the Tancredo/Minutemen wing of the far-right.

McCain does have a consistently conservative voting record that most Americans would find distasteful, but since when have American voters cared about voting records? He’ll go on Jon Stewart, crack a few jokes, and a large number of people will just swoon, based on nothing more than personality.

As for the media, as much as I’d love to think their nauseating crush on McCain will fade, I’ve been waiting for that to happen for eight years — and every political reporter I can think of still treats the guy like a folk hero. (I mean that literally — Roger Simon, not too long ago, labeled McCain a “folk hero.”) The scrutiny just never seems to come; news outlets seem to let McCain play by a different set of rules. In contrast, these same professional journalists, driven by animus that I can neither explain nor comprehend, hate Hillary Clinton.

To be sure, there are plenty of risks for Dems in an Obama-McCain or an Edwards-McCain match-up. I envision a debate in which McCain treats either of them as upstart kids who haven’t worked hard enough to earn his respect. I fear a “stature gap,” based on nothing but perceptions.

But Clinton? My biggest fear about her candidacy is her ability to take on McCain. If he’s the GOP nominee, I think Obama may offer a better contrast — the past vs. the future.

Kevin concludes, “I’m not afraid of McCain,” adding, “He’s eminently beatable.” I sincerely wish I could share in his optimism.

How about you?

** This is exactly what I’m talking about: “Despite his push for an indefinite presence in Iraq, McCain somehow had a ‘wide advantage’ yesterday with New Hampshire Republicans who ‘disapproved of the war.'” His position is irrelevant; they just trust him. That’s not encouraging.

I’m very concerned about McCain as well. Various state polls up at TPM show him beating everyone. Most striking was Virginia, with McCain (R) 49%, Clinton (D) 8% (Jan 8 Rasmussen). Yes, that’s 8%.

Sadly, I don’t think you can underestimate the potency of irrational Hillary Hate (witness Chris Matthews this morning). I also don’t think you can underestimate the potency of msm adoration for McCain. In combination they could be lethal for our hopes.

Unfair – yes. But, as you noted above, Mr. 100 years in Iraq “McCain somehow had a ‘wide advantage’ yesterday with New Hampshire Republicans who ‘disapproved of the war.’” ”

In a rational country there would be no problem. We don’t live in a rational country.

  • I agree 100% and the national polls support you.

    Hillary is competitive against anyone except McCain
    Obama trashes everyone except McCain
    Obama is competitive against McCain
    McCain trashes Hillary

    That’s why I went to bed yesterday with a sick feeling. Democrats are making an idiotic choice and the Republicans are starting to come out of their own insane streak. Very bad.

  • I side with Drum.

    McCain is a real conservative, even if the Republican’ts don’t believe it. He can be pounded flat with that.

    He doesn’t look a youthful 72 to me. Bill Clinton looks better. Between Bill and Hillary I imagine they can run him into the ground (hopefully not literally).

    And the adulterous McCain is not likely to bring up Bill’s past, and the Keating Five McCain is not likely to bring up White Water.

    He’s on the right side on immigration, but so is Hillary. He was right on BGII’s tax cuts, but now he’s a wimp on them.

    And no matter how well the Surge went, it’s over now, and Americans are dying in Iraq to get Exxon/Mobile a contract for 74% of the profits for oil extraction when French or Russian companies could offer to do if for 48% and double the revenue to the Iraqi government. Do you think the “Oil Law” will ever be signed? And if it isn’t, McCain will not leave Iraq.

    Thank you no, Hillary can win.

  • There are a good number of articles that say that once people get to see Hillary in person or get to see her in more than quick soundbites they wind up supporting her. McCain sounds like he’s just the opposite. Mumbling from the podium while reading his notes ain’t charisma. If the Dems boil it down to the fact that McCain, whatever his possible charms, still represents the party of Bush, his candidacy will still be a non-starter for many folks.

    As 2008 rolls out and the economy plays an ever greater role in the debate, people won’t give a crap about John’s hawkishness. It won’t be about the war, it’ll be about the recession.

  • The greatest gift the Democratic party could give to the Republicans is a Hillary nomination.

  • Your footnote at the end is precisely what Drum’s analysis misses, and which highlights a fundamental misunderstanding of how we, the political junkies who write or comment on blogs, are unlike the voting population in general. For a nice, very funny, and at times depressing review of “undecided voters” from 2004, read Chris Hayes. A choice quote:

    But the very concept of the issue seemed to be almost completely alien to most of the undecided voters I spoke to. (This was also true of a number of committed voters in both camps–though I’ll risk being partisan here and say that Kerry voters, in my experience, were more likely to name specific issues they cared about than Bush supporters.) At first I thought this was a problem of simple semantics–maybe, I thought, “issue” is a term of art that sounds wonky and intimidating, causing voters to react as if they’re being quizzed on a topic they haven’t studied. So I tried other ways of asking the same question: “Anything of particular concern to you? Are you anxious or worried about anything? Are you excited about what’s been happening in the country in the last four years?”

    These questions, too, more often than not yielded bewilderment. As far as I could tell, the problem wasn’t the word “issue”; it was a fundamental lack of understanding of what constituted the broad category of the “political.” The undecideds I spoke to didn’t seem to have any intuitive grasp of what kinds of grievances qualify as political grievances. Often, once I would engage undecided voters, they would list concerns, such as the rising cost of health care; but when I would tell them that Kerry had a plan to lower health-care premiums, they would respond in disbelief–not in disbelief that he had a plan, but that the cost of health care was a political issue. It was as if you were telling them that Kerry was promising to extend summer into December.

    Which is why you’re exactly right, Steve. McCain’s favorables in the Dem party are absurd, something like 60%, and its not because there’s a big mystery about his record or his stance on the war.

  • I think the only way a republican can win the White House is if Hillary gets the dem. nod. Anything short of that and the republicans will lose. I loved when Obama said Hillary would just fight the same fight that has went on since 1968.

  • If Hillary Clinton truly is as unpopular a personality as Chait suggests, she won’t win the nomination – no problem. Each of the Democratic frontrunners has had a victory, and a defeat. Momentum has been demonstrated to be transitory and unreliable, and each has been given enough to make them both elated and cautious.

    I’d fear a Clinton nomination because Hillary has so much baggage, a good deal of which she’s probably forgotten. She claims to be the best qualified to take on the Republican attack machine, but any perceived advantage there is more than offset by the huge target she is for the Republican attack machine. It might also be interpreted as ease and comfort working within the environment of dirty tricks. This is likely truer for her than for all the other Democratic candidates, but it’s hardly a positive trait.

    I believe it’s clear the GOP devoutly hopes Clinton will be the nominee, which is an excellent reason she shoud not be. A McCain-Clinton matchup also throws away the clout of the African-American vote. That’s by no means a guarantee, but Obama would have to do something pretty extreme to lose it.

  • And no matter how well the Surge went, it’s over now, and Americans are dying in Iraq to get Exxon/Mobile a contract for 74% of the profits for oil extraction when French or Russian companies could offer to do if for 48% and double the revenue to the Iraqi government. Do you think the “Oil Law” will ever be signed? And if it isn’t, McCain will not leave Iraq.

    You’re delusional. Anyone who cares a whit about what you just posted there (or even understands it) is already a solid Democrat voter. You don’t understand how most undecided voters think. Who passively swallows the sweet CNN/Fox bile all day, is convinced to the core that Democrats and Republicans are equally “virtuous” and takes great pride in using his/her “gut” to decide between them, when he/she is actually using the most vapid criteria imaginable.

    These people can’t be asked to think, but they can be inspired, and Obama will inspire them. Hillary puts even me to sleep.

  • Although one needs to take into consideration the possibility of a Clinton/Obama ticket if Clinton is the nominee. I have a feeling that such a ticket, even with Clinton as the lead and Obama as the understudy, would be well received and easily overcome any combination the GOP can throw at it. Would like to see some polling of a Clinton/Obama ticket against the various GOP contenders.

  • For crissakes, Hillary can’t even tear up without it becoming a national cat fight.

    In order to win New Hampshire, her husband, a supposed friend, has to throw a dagger into the heart of black America hopes :

    It ain’t your fairy tale boys and girls. It’s the princess with the blue eyes
    turn. Know your place.

    Everything they do DIVIDES this country.

    It is patently obvious to all but fools.

    Regarding Kevin Drum:

    I think that on the eve of the biggest election in years…
    Kevin Drum posted an esoteric piece on the Iranian leadership and left it up for hours…

    The guy is the essence of learned cluelessness.
    He is what blase punditry is all about.

  • The first is that this simply looks to be a Democratic year. -Kevin Drum

    As much as I respect Drum, that is the same battlecry I heard in 2004. It’s becoming the very definition of insane to keep repeating it.

  • You can say all you want about this being just between Barack and Hillary but looking at the graphic on the left side of MYDD’s home page (mydd.com) you will see that out of the 2209 delegates needed to win the democratic nomination, Barack has 16, Hillary has 15, and Edwards has 14 (I assume these numbers include the New Hampshire results but they might not). That suggests that all three of them are still competitive despite the media stories. And besides, those totals only account for just over 1% of all the available delegates and just over 2% of those needed to win. Each of them have less than 1% of the votes needed for a win so this thing still has a ways to go in my mind.

  • John McCain can win a primary in NH or Mich. and perhaps in a few other (mostly new england) states but is not likely to be the nominee and can not win the general election because much of the conservative base loathes him. He has earned their mistrust because he has built his recent career by opposing them, knowing it will assure him of some free media attention. Even his recent advocacy of a troop surge can best be understood as a risk free dig at Bush, yet there was no mention of the strategy essential to the eventual success of that surge. Huckabee is the most like Bush to his conservative detractors, a big, government big spending compassionate conservative. The only republican candidates that can unite the republican base are Mitt and Fred (or Hunter), and Romney is a recent convert to conservatism. Fred may not survive long enough for the base to come home to him. If McCain,Giulianni, Huckabee (or Paul) were to win the nomination Republicans will lose because the base will stay home on election day, and then we will see once again that conservatism is still relevant in America. If Fred Thompson is still alive Feb. 6 then it means the party has begun to return to it’s roots and it will be fascinating to see if conservatism still wins elections.

  • Well, here’s another good reason for the primary season to go as long as possible without a presumptive nominee: the dynamic will shift depending on who is winning primaries – on both sides of the aisle. So far, McCain has won exactly one primary. One. Will he win more? Probably – but that isn’t going to happen in a vacuum.

    As we go forward, I think whoever is picking up steam on the GOP side is definitely going to have an effect on who Dems line up behind. The wrench that has been thrown into the calculation, though, is that with the terrible predictions for NH, there could be a tendency for people to stop paying attention to polls, even if they show McCain beating Hillary.

    The other thing to keep in mind is turnout – so far, Democratic turnout is exceeding expectations – and that could well make the difference no matter who the GOP nominee is. We want to win, we are motivated to win and we are determined to win. I don’t think the voters are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces if it means losing in November.

    I do agree with Kevin – McCain is old. The man who wanted to leave Vietnam behind is going to haul it out of mothballs and talk about it frequently – his sacrifice is not to be dismissed, but (1) it was 40 years ago and (2) what relevance does it have to today’s world, given that he has been wrong about Iraq over and over and over.

    And if he runs with Lieberman, or if Lieberman is floated as SecDef, McCain is toast.

    And McCain will get his very own version of “The Kiss” float – his will be “The Hug.” Gosh, with McCain-Lieberman, we’d get The Hug AND The Kiss…

  • I think Obama may offer a better contrast — the past vs. the future.

    One further thing, get McC in a debate vs Obama broadcasted in Hi-def television.

    You’ll see the contrast – visually Kennedy vs Nixon style.

  • Revisit the Keating Scandal? Right. As Bush did with cocaine use, Harkin Energy, his missing year from Guard service, etc., McCain will simply say this has already been looked into, and the media will sing in unison, “Oh, yeah.” Period. End of redux.

  • I disagree with those who claim that McCain is a true conservative Republican. The only true conservative Republican in the race is Ron Paul. The others claim to be Republicans but it is a term that has lost its meaning. They should run as the Neocon Party, Industrialcons, or possibly even Decepticons. I’m worried sick about the economy, and the only person addressing the economy is Dr. Paul. The Democrats will only accelerate the economic free-fall of this country by socializing health care, and spending more on other problems while not cutting big government spending or promptly ending the wars, bringing me and my fellow servicemembers home. Unfortunately, most of the Technocons or false Republicans will do the same thing…especially John “let’s leave the troops in Iraq for 100 years” McCain. I’m ashamed of the New Hampshire voters for casting votes for nonsense like this. I wish that Ron Paul had a chance to really debate his issues on the national stage, without being rudely talked over or openly mocked. It doesn’t give a good impression of this whole process.

  • bubba #11. It would be polictical siucide for Obama to be VP to HRC. I am sure she would love that, she would control him and basically neuter him so that he was no threat to her in 2012. The power in the VP position that Cheney has now has to be removed and she will remove it and control it all herself, (and she will do this publically to show she has changed things) so Obama will left with nothing and in the difficult position of anything he does just making her look good. I don’t think so. It would be really bad for Obama and bad for the country.

  • With respect to 2004’s hopes, we didn’t have a Democratic congress then and the war in Iraq hadn’t drug on for four more years. Throw in a slumping economy and it doesn’t look good for the GOP no matter who they run. McCain will be the nominee though, if for no other reason than he does less damage down the rest of the Republican ticket.

  • Those who are also worried about Obama’s lack of experience will have a clear contrast with McCain.

    That said, why would I let the Republicans control my vote? When you vote for electability, you get John Kerry. Vote your heart and head and let the Republicans be damned.

    And please, don’t discount Edwards so completely yet.

  • just guessing,

    “basically neuter him”?? So you agree with Chris Matthews that she is an emasculating woman. Everywhere you look, misogynists.

  • (Do you think “a million years in Iraq” will play well with moderates in November?)

    I don’t think it will hurt him that much. My parents, who are slightly right of center but far from Republican party loyalists, really like McCain. They respond to the 100 year thing by claiming that in context he was only saying if we stop taking casualties. That isn’t going to happen and they both support getting out of Iraq asap (in part because they recognize the disaster and in part because I have a brother going over there early next year), but McCain has still convinced them that his stay-in-Iraq-forever philosphy is somehow compatible with their own beliefs. I fear lots of independents are going to get equally confused.

  • If Hillary can replicate the rallying of women voters that she achieved in NH nationally, then she could beat McCain without too much difficulty. Imagine kerry – bush breakdowns, with Hillary taking back a huge chunk of women, McCain losing a significant number of Latinos.

    That adds up to a Democratic win.

    As for Obama, I think he would beat McCain more easily on a pure symbolic level – the future vs. the past. Of course, Obama has charisma with regular people (not beltway insiders) that even McCain would envy.

  • I’m with Chait and Steve. The press decides who’s what, and they’re telling everyone that McCain is a folk hero maverick who’s always been against Bush’s handling of the war. The guy’s flipflopped on every single issue and yet he’s portrayed as Mr. Straight Talker.

    In 2000, they portrayed Bush as a good businessman, a “compassionate conservative”. They knew damn well he wasn’t. In 2004 they let Kerry get slimed, knowing full well the swiftboaters were lying. See a pattern yet? Those bullshit artists are going to play their game again, just like in the last two presidential contests.

  • And by the way, ROTFLMLiberalAO and “my guy or the highway” posters are the essence of bad politics. They’re right, and everybody else deserves scorn.

  • I don’t know if I believe it myself, but here’s a contrary view. Hillary, whose negatives are already very high, has nothing to lose from dragging McCain through the mud. The Clinton machine will be relentless in under-cutting McCain, tying him to Bush in every possible way. Sure, the election will be ugly and dispiriting, but once McCain’s brought down to earth, the larger dynamics kick-in and Hillary squeaks in because it’s a Democratic year. Meanwhile, if Obama opposes McCain, he’s afraid to really engage him, allowing the old coot to float through the summer with barely a scratch, with the final vote to come down to an ephemeral and risky notion of change versus an American hero. McCain bucks the odds and wins a close one. We forget one thing in worrying about Hillary. All the passion on this year is on the Dem side and if she’s the nominee everyone will rally around her with something approximately actual affection. One other thought: How will McCain handle the rigors of a true national campaign? Hanging out in NH for a couple months is nothing compared to the wear and tear the rest of the field has already been through. I’m not spoiling from a McCain/Hillary fight, but I won’t run from it either. (I plan on voting for Obama in the primary.)

  • If Clinton is the Democratic nominee, the Republicans will have no problem generating enthusiasm. That’s just the truth. It’s not rational, nor is it fair, and the Republicans I know (relatively thoughtful/well informed types) will admit that Clinton is actually the Dem they find most acceptable on policy grounds.

    But it’s the truth. Clinton against anyone would be a dogfight for the Democrats–in large part because that race would be about *her* (and Bill), rather than a referendum on the national direction of the Bush years or a conversation about the future of the country. And the sort of campaign they would pursue is the Gore/Kerry model: focus in a few states, write off huge sections of the country, and hope you can get to 270 EVs. Needless to say, this would be very bad news for all those Democratic freshmen in congressional districts that went for Bush in ’00 and ’04.

    Were McCain to face Clinton, the Democrats would have a second huge problem: McCain is adored by the press, who get gooey at his war record and readiness with a quotable remark, and appeals to independent voters–very few of whom have an open or evolving opinion on Clinton.

    Maybe I’m wrong–hell, I sure was wrong yesterday–but I see Obama as directly inverting this situation: he attracts independent voters and the press, and sort of demoralizes the Republican coalition while exacerbating its fractures. In a race against McCain, his “inexperience” would be a factor–but he’d retain the enormous advantage of having gotten Iraq right while the “seasoned” candidate was a relentless cheerleader for a disastrous war.

    Unlike ’04, the arguments for both “electability” and “idealism” are on Obama’s side. If Democrats toss that away out of loyalty to the Clinton Brand, they’ll deserve what they get.

  • Two comments:

    1. Never underestimate the capacity of Americans to vote against their own self-interest.

    2. I have seen the tea leaves, and they is us.

    Yours crankily,
    The New York Crank

  • In the end McCain will have to withstand a whole new level of public scrutiny and he won’t hold up as the maverick that the press likes to portray him as. New Hampshire voters were able to ignore his uber hawk record on Iraq after a one week campaign where foreign policy and Iraq were nary mentioned on the Republican side, but how will it stand up against a 100 million dollar advertising campaign? Not well I think.

    In the general election Hillary’s negatives will probably have a rubberband effect. They’ve been pulled as far as they can go without snapping (the NH crying story is a good example — every news pundit had it as her downfall, but it probably put her over the top) and her situation will probably improve over time, with more exposure because there is nothing new that is negative left to be said. The Republicans will have to attack her on her positions which will be a disaster. If Hillary is elected she will try to pull us out of Iraq, she will support universal health care, she will support social security, she will support a pay-as-you-go balanced budget. OOO that will hurt her a lot. Everyone knows how unpopular those positions are. The last thing the Republicans want to do is attack her on her record. That would only give the public a view of just how centrist she really is.

  • It’s extraordinary that Dems don’t see how they will hand the election to the opposition by nominating Hillary Clinton.

    The Republicans can do one thing and one thing only exceptionally well: attack. Since they have a pathetic record of governance, they excel at attack politics and will use it to the full on any Dem nominee.

    So think ahead: Hillary as nominee. What do you get? All the old Clinton-hatreds, trotted out once again, for the faithful, making Republicans and Independents who dislike her rabid. She’ll be called a “flip-flopper” just like Kerry for the Iraq authorization, which she has NEVER apologized for. Iran, same deal. And that’s just the beginning.

    The Reps. will turn the election ugly quick, knowing that the more turned off the electorate is, the more apathy they breed in moderates and Dems, the better for them at the polls.

    Obama as nominee? Sure, the Rove slime machines will call him “liberal,” “young” and “inexperienced.” YAWN. Won’t stick in an election year where people are giving the president and congress record-low approval ratings. Especially when people extend so much good will to Obama.

    And if they try the “Hussein” angle? Or the “negro” angle? Well, again, so what? People who believe those stories or who would never vote for a “darkie” would likely never vote for a Dem anyway. And if they take these lines of attack above ground too much, the GOP gets to look like something they’ve been trying unsuccessfully to avoid looking like: racists. It helped cost them the Virginia senate seat, and could help cost them the election too.

    What are Dems thinking by even considering Clinton? I will never figure that out. And if she’s nominated, it’s time for me to start shopping for a third party.

  • I agree with Chait, and that’s why I took such glee in the McCain Implosion Tour 2007 — I was afraid it would become the McCain Comeback Tour 2008.

    Whether or not Hillary is the Dem candidate is, IMHO, irrelevant. The only GOP candidate who could compete against any of the Dems was, and now is, McCain because of the media’s complete reluctance to do an ounce of research on the guy, and then report the results to the masses.

    They just won’t do it because McCain has let the press into the Kewl Kids Klub, and so few of them are willing to endanger that invite.

    If McCain gets the nod, the best hope is for him to lose his temper in a very public way. The guy’s got a notorious mean streak, and I can’t imagine it’d be that hard for someone to bait him into a meltdown (wink wink nudge nudge for anyone following him the trail).

    Otherwise, the press will give the guy way too much typographical fellatio for it to be a comfortable win (if one at all).

    (Note: This is not to say that if McCain is the GOP’s guy that the Dems are toast. It’s to say that it’d be hard due to the media’s love of the guy and the right’s attacks, which we know will come. Just a bad combo that’s doomed more than one qualified Dem candidate … )

  • Tamalak said: “You’re delusional. Anyone who cares a whit about what you just posted there (or even understands it) is already a solid Democrat voter. You don’t understand how most undecided voters think.”

    Well, if you don’t try to educate voters you can’t complain they don’t understand the issues. I don’t want a Democrat to lie their way into office like Boy George II did. You get no mandate that way.

    As for those who say Hillary will cause a horrible fight in the General Election, I say great. I don’t want a happy goey everybody votes for “A Democrat who is the change rather than one who stands for change” and we get four years of no substance because the Bloomberg moderates whine “we thought you’d be bi-partisan”, which is code for bend over and take it hard.

  • Lance, your “horrible fight” will lead, at best, to four more years of dug-in gridlock. And that’s if she wins–which many of us view as a long shot in what should be an easy year for Democrats.

    Because of who she’s perceived to be, Hillary Clinton can’t change many if any minds. Because of who she is–a very cautious politician who, it often seems, doesn’t really believe in progressive ideals–I don’t think she’s inclined to try.

  • jen @ 22:

    I agree on all counts. When Dems overthink, they saddle themselves with mediocre options. Hillary is only the third-best option available.

  • I’m willing to discount all the early polling about hypothetical general election match-ups. If national primary polls are meaningless, and I think they are, then national general election polls are even less helpful.

    I agree that the mean little this far out, as so much can change, but I don’t agree that they mean less than national primary polls. Primary polls mean even less as there is much less difference between candidates in a primary than a general election. Only a small number of people will change from Democrat to Republican, but many more could change their minds between members of the same party.

    As for the more important point of the post, I completely agree that Obama would do better against McCain, or any other Republican. Obama can do far more to bring in the votes of independents, and even some Republicans who are unhappy with the direction the party has gone. With Clinton as the candidate it will come down once again to which party does a better job of getting their people to vote. Democrats are in a much better position than in 2000 and 2004 with far more potential Democratic voters, but Obama can totally reshape the game in the favor of Democrats.

  • On the other hand, Clinton hatred will look strange to so many newer voters who were not politically alive during the 90s

    You could see a national-level repeat of what we saw in NH. The backlash could whip around and actually favor HRC. I’d still prefer BHO or JRE, of course.

  • All it’s going to take to derail McCain is a good 527 ad showing him singing Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran, saying he wants to be in Iraq for a zillion years, showing his support of torture and he’s done. That’s all it will take is one ad and the viral YouTube.

    HRC has her issues with supporting the war (and the other things on her voting record). I’ll vote for her but only if she gets the nod. I hope it’s Obama. I’m disgusted with Edwards. He lost my vote.

  • Hillary will inspire a rash of anti-Clintonista voters on the Republican side, who will come out in force to insure that we don’t have a return to the prosperity of the 90s coupled with the Clinton family scandals. That sucks for the Dems in other races too, where we might have the possibility of turning over some contentious seats in the senate, like Cornyn in Texas. Hillary herself is the 2008 wedge issue for the Republicans.

    McCain gets a pass from some number of Dems and lots of Independents who wrongly view him as a moderate. The press won’t reveal that the guy is really conservative, and in my opinion he would likely take this election from the Democrats who so obviously deserve to win it.

  • I just love watching liberals talk about how great Mccain is and how much republicans/conservatives love him.

    the fact is that most republicans, real republicans hate mccain almost as much as they hate hillary. In a way we may even hate him more. With Hillary at least she doesn’t pretend to be one of us. She’s a socialist democrat and we all know that but mccain claims to be a rpublican and a conservative when we all know that he’s really just an amnesty loving douchebag.

    I can only speak for myself when I say that if it’s Mccain vs Hillary in 2008 I will stay home. Many other Republicans feel the same way as I do. We are willing to bit the bullet and let Hillary in so that it is made clear to the GOP leaders once and for all that no more rinos will be accepted.

    So here’s to John Juan Mccain….the greatest rino that ever lived!

  • rino – republican in name only, which isn’t true of mcCain cause he owns this war as surely as bush does, and he’s always voted for the rights of fetal americans.

  • Some of the Best and Worst analysis came from Scarborough. Worst: Concern Trolling that Republicans believe Democrats would wake up after the nomination and regret they chose Obama. Best: If all of the MSM covering the NH Primary could, they would move to Massachusetts and marry McCain.

    Best way to handle McCain: Full Court pressure all the time from all fronts. He’ll crack. Same in dealing with the media, they are at an all time opinion low.

  • dajafi said: “Lance, your “horrible fight” will lead, at best, to four more years of dug-in gridlock. And that’s if she wins–which many of us view as a long shot in what should be an easy year for Democrats.”

    You have better be right about the other two then, because I see Hillary as the most knowledgeable and capable of the top three and you are asking us to give up all that for charisma.

  • McCain looks old beyond his years, and that probably reflects the status of his health (poor). I predict he drops out for health reasons.

    Why would anybody still read TNR, let alone quote from it??

  • Lance: Speaking for myself, it’s not “charisma”–judgment, quality of mind and upside political potential. (Okay, I guess that last has at least something to do with charisma.)

    I admit it’s (as Bill said) a roll of the dice–though I think that’s true of all of them–and I admit that my personal distaste for the Clintons and their small, mean politics is a part of it. But at the same time, I see something in Obama that I haven’t seen in any other politician through 20 years of following these things pretty closely. Give hope a chance 😉

  • Guess what guys.

    You can’t trust the poll anymore! And I’m glad, because the press misuses polls.

  • It is truly amazing that you keep falling into this pit of “electability”. McCain is still a republican. No republican will win the WH. After the horrors of Bush…are you kidding or what?… With all the republican obstructionism in the senate? How many times does it need to be said…WHOMEVER WINS THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION WILL BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT. How can you doubt this?

    I’m leaning toward Chaite? Have you no memory? Are you pretending the past 8 yrs. never happened? Are you just trying to create paranoia pretending that a republican has a chance in hell of winning the WH? Are you just trying to make it a competitive race because you want one or what? The Bush/Cheney administration has left an odor so foul, a taste so bitter that a nation stands infuriated by what it has brought about that you would have to blindfold yourself and put cotton in your ears to not know that there is no way a republican will win the WH…period. But time after time you keep creating match ups as if they were actually plausible…like who will beat McCain? Are you on drugs or what? ALL the dems are electable…NONE of the republicans are electable…NONE.

    The list of republican corruption, mistakes and utter failures and embarrassments will make sure republicans will not get elected for some time to come. You know this. That’s why I ask if you’re on drugs when you say I’m leaning toward Chaite. Even the numbers of voters voting dem this time overwhelmingly favor a dem in the WH. Why do you play mind games with yourself locked into the “what ifs”. Love ya but DUH?

  • I guess no one here has listened/ watched George Carlin latest video. He says forget about the politicians. They are only put there to let you think you have a choice. You don’t! You have no choice. You have OWNERS in this country. The REAL owners who own and control the large corporations, banks, real estate etc. Who make all real and important decisions. They long ago bought and paid for the Senate, the House, the state houses, the governorships, the county and city halls. They have the judges in their back pocket. They spend billions lobbying to get laws passed to suite them. Its a big club, AND YOU AIN’T IN IT.

    See Carlin’s “Life Is Worth Losing” on DVD (section # 6)

  • ***Retrocon*** comment 19…”…I wish that Ron Paul had a chance to really debate his issues on the national stage, without being rudely talked over or openly mocked. It doesn’t give a good impression of this whole process.”

    You mean like crossing picket lines rude or getting rid of unions rude. The last time we had a states free market we had a civil war as some states believed they could have slaves (or nickel and dime sweat shops) an succeed from the union. Privatize police…do away with social programs like socialized medicine…you know…the VA hospitals etc. Getting rid of the billionaire CEOs of the health care industry is what brings costs down not leaving your health care up to some one whose bottom line only improves if you are not treated. Please if you’re going to throw Paul’s name about at least know what you’re talking about. Kucinich has the same plans as Paul on the war and war funding but wants to remove profiteering from our healthcare system…not make it a bigger part of it.

  • Mccain getting the Rep. nomination has always been the worst possibility for Dems exactly because he polls very well with Independents and even Dems. If it comes down to Huckabee and McCain, you’d have to think Big Money would throw in with Perpetual War faction over Fundamentalist faction. His foreign policy (militarism and imperialism) would be awful. Please let’s generate ideas how to slow him down. A “bomb bomb bomb Iran” commercial is a great idea. Also, I compeltely agree, he has a bad temper and could be goaded into making horrendous pronouncements on campain trail. All these sorts of ideas mentioned above are good. Let’s generate some more.

  • I think people are also forgetting that the presidency is not the only office up for grabs – there are 435 House seats and a bunch of Senate seats in contention, as well. Do you have any idea what the cumulative effect will be of all those Democrats running ads and giving speeches and reminding people about the less-than-stellar record of the Republicans? What are the Republicans’ weapons in those fights – that they were the most obstructionist in history? that some of them were not indicted, some did not resign and some do nothave mug shots on file anywhere?

    We have more going for us than just the Democratic presidential nominee.

  • There are a lot of comments on this tread, but I only saw it briefly mentioned: the prevalence of the internet, political blogs, and Youtube, etc…. Sure we may be weary about how the MSM favors Republicans in general, but don’t you think that this elections cycle, more people are getting their news from the web – for better or worse…

    I think that a few well placed ‘viral’ youtube clips, exposing the Republicans for what they really are, will eventually end up on the major networks. WHY? Because they can’t help themselves when it comes to sensationalism. They’re like addicts to the latest ‘breaking news’ and they’ll have to show it, so they can talk about it over and over, while still being able to claim that they’re above the fray.

  • Anne brings up a very good point, about all the senate and house seats being in the mix and up for grabs…. If I have a choice of having:

    1) a 50-50 senate like we have now and a minimal majority in the House with Hillary or Obama or Edwards as president or

    2) McCain as president and veto proof majorities in the House and Senate.

    I’d pick any Republican as president, wacky and insane as they all are, knowing that there isn’t a thing he can do about a democratic congress telling him how it is going to be.

  • Bruno – after seeing the extent to which this president has abused his executive authority, and the extent to which the administration has been seeded with good little minions who didn’t need confirmation, I would not be the least bit comfortable with a Republican president even if we had every seat in the House and Senate.

    If you read Charlie Savage’s book, Takeover, you will see in very stark terms, how often this president has simply thumbed his nose at the Congress, claiming again and again and again that it had no authority over him, and how far into the administration this practice reached.

    Don’t forget, too, the numbers of conservative judges that have been appointed at all levels of the federal judiciary, including – most especially – the Supreme Court. Even if Ginsburg and Stevens do step down, replacing them will not change the composition of the Court and that will have ongoing implications.

    Nope – we will not be safe even if we have a veto-proof majority; we need the WH, too.

  • McCain is still a republican. No republican will win the WH. After the horrors of Bush…are you kidding or what? -bjobotts

    2004 is on the phone…it wants its inaccurate and premature assumption of an inevitable Democratic victory back.

    As Bush once said, fool me once, won’t get fooled again.

    Let’s not be naive anymore. The GOP is nothing if not master campaigners, and we should never count them out.

  • at least with a veto proof congress, you can ‘impeach’ the incumbent. That would be the point. He can either follow the rules or get impeached. Sure not the best outcome, but it would be possible when the Republican weasels couldn’t filibuster their way out of it.

    It was rhetorical as that obviously wouldn’t happen anyway (the scenario I presented in a previous posting)

    As mentioned on another tread in regards to Fox News and their deliberate misinformation, that is what is scarier. I meet those type of people on a regular basis, and they do not have any clue about what is actually going on in America. You offer them examples of how their assumptions about Saddam Hussein’s connection to 9/11, WMD being found, Libby being innocent and being railroaded, etc….. etc…. and they don’t believe you, because you’re NOT a news channel. When you bring up more recent examples of corruptions, things they can’t outright dismiss, then you hear, “the democrats do it too” or “Clinton did it” …

    It’s like the lady in Iowa who had ‘heard’ that Obama was a muslim and therefore she voted for Clinton. This is a lady participating in the Democratic caucus; which means she watches too much Fox News herself, or she has several friends who she’s overheard talking about it… and where could her friends possibly have heard that tidbit of information?

    So…. if Fox News gets behind the McCain wagon, there will be a lot of people believing what a good person he really is, and then try to convince them otherwise….

  • once people get to see Hillary in person or get to see her in more than quick soundbites they wind up supporting her. McCain sounds like he’s just the opposite. Mumbling from the podium while reading his notes ain’t charisma.

    Are you serious? 99% of voters will never see a candidate in person OR anything more than a soundbite. They’ll get the skewed views of the media, and see McCain crack wise on The Daily Show. That’s it. Game over.

  • Bruno, I see those two scenarios as mutually-exclusive… Whoever wins the White House also has the coattails…IF the GOP holds, they might not flip Congress back, but I don’t see how we lose the Presidency and gain seats in Congress.

    But if we win the White House, it will likely mean we had better turnout and pick up additional seats in Congress. With any luck enough to stomp any filibustering from the Republicans.

  • I agree — McCain is the best shot the Republicans have & Hillary is the worst person the Democrats have to put up against him — it is very troubling!

  • rino – republican in name only, which isn’t true of mcCain cause he owns this war as surely as bush does, and he’s always voted for the rights of fetal americans.

    It’s also not true because McCain votes with his party more than 96% of the time!

    This whole “he’s not really a Republican” meme, like most everything else from the right, is totally, 100%, unadulterated bullshit. Just because he doesn’t advocate whacking abortion doctors or rounding up every brown person does not make him any less of a Republican. Just look at his voting record — it’s more solidly conservative than even Rick “Man-on-Dog” Santorum.

    Of course, thanks to a media that giggles like teenagers with a crush over every little joke McCain makes and ignores anything bad he ever does, hardly anyone knows that.

  • I too fear the Hillary Hatred, my mother, a life long Republican is going to vote in the Democratic Primary so she can vote against Hillary. Ithink a lot of Republicans who are prepared to give up and not vote will be motivated to vote against her. Unfair, but true.

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