Where do the candidates stand on modern biology?

Ronald Bailey, Reason’s science correspondent, took on an interesting project this week: documenting where every major-party presidential candidate stands on evolutionary biology.

Oddly enough, this has taken on far more political significance this election cycle than the last two. It started back in May, in one of the more memorable debate moments of the year, when John McCain was asked a straightforward question: “Do you believe in evolution?”

It’s the 21st century and McCain is an educated man, so it should have been an easy one, but he’s a Republican, and he needs to appeal to a far-right base that has little use for modern science — so he hesitated. After a pregnant pause, McCain said, “Yes.”

The Politico’s Jim VandeHei opened it up to the stage: “I’m curious, is there anybody on the stage that does not agree, believe in evolution?” The camera didn’t show the 10 candidates for very long, but three would-be presidents raised their hand: Sam Brownback, Mike Huckabee, and Tom Tancredo. Later, Ron Paul acknowledged that he doesn’t “accept” modern biology, either.

Take a look at Bailey’s piece for the details, but here’s a rough tale of the tape:

* Mike Huckabee — Rejects evolutionary biology, but says it shouldn’t matter.

* John McCain — Has rejected, embraced, and rejected again intelligent-design creationism.

* Mitt Romney — Believes in evolution. “In my opinion, the science class is where to teach evolution.”

* Rudy Giuliani — Refuses to say and “successfully discouraged key advisors from speaking to Science about specific issues.”

* Duncan Hunter — Told the Creation Studies Institute that he would “support and encourage a more open approach to education in the presentation of scientific facts that contradict the theory of evolution.”

* Ron Paul — Rejects biological evolution as “a theory.”

* Fred Thompson — Has apparently never said publicly either way.

And then, there are the Dems.

* Hillary Clinton — Believes in evolution.

* John Edwards — Believes in evolution.

* Barack Obama — Hasn’t been quoted on modern biology, but rejects intelligent-design creationism.

* Dennis Kucinich — Hasn’t been quoted on the subject.

* Mike Gravel — Has been rather emphatic on the subject. “My God, evolution is a fact, and if these people are disturbed by being the descendants of monkeys and fishes, they’ve got a mental problem. We can’t afford the psychiatric bill for them. That ends the story as far as I’m concerned.”

The next question, of course, is whether this matters, given that the president, no matter who he or she is, has practically no control or influence over what’s taught in the nation’s schools. I’ve argued, repeatedly, that this matters a great deal, because it speaks to how earnestly a person takes evidence and reason, which in turn tells the nation quite a bit about how this person would make decisions in the Oval Office.

Bailey added, “Since science and technology policy issues are only going to become more important as the 21st century unfolds, we should all care how scientific knowledge informs a president’s leadership.”

I was also fond of Steve Verdon’s take.

One of the things that never ceases to amaze me about those who support creationism, intelligent design and oppose the concept of evolution is that they are amazing hypocrites. They will say things like, “Evolution is only a theory.” No. This. Is. Wrong. Evolution — i.e. that organisms change at a genetic level — is an observed fact. The theory man has constructed to explain the myriad of facts that fall under the broad umbrella of evolution is “just a theory”. However, this applies to other real phenomena such as gravity. Take a penny and drop it. It falls to the floor. It always falls to the floor. Of all the billions and billions of times people have dropped pennies (hear on earth) there is not one instance where the penny has not fallen to the floor.

Do we fully understand gravity and how it works? No. Is there a single theory of gravity? No. Are there “gaps” in the theory? Yes. So why don’t all these people who fight so vigorously against evolution fight just as vigorously against gravity? My guess is because they know that people will regard them as irrational kooks who really and truly are anti-science. But evolution and evolutionary theory…why that is hard to understand without lots of set-up costs. So evolution is a “soft target”. But the exact same arguments that the Creos use against evolutionary theory can be leveled against any and all scientific theories. The bottom line is that these people are either ignorant or willfully obtuse. In either way, I don’t see it as a good thing in a candidate for any office including dog catcher.

Well, that settles that.

Ron Paul is almost correct.

biological evolution as “a theory”. It is a theory.

Mike Gravel is wrong, at least in part.

“My God, evolution is a fact, and if these people are disturbed by being the descendants of monkeys and fishes, they’ve got a mental problem.”

Evolution is not a fact. Evolution is a theory. It is probably a correct theory but one never knows.

Gravel is wrong. We, humans, are NOT descendants of monkeys, period.

  • I knew there was a reason I like Gravel.

    Verdon is missing the point. The Bible doesn’t say that Gravity is untrue.

    The Bible says that evolution didn’t happen. The Bible says that creation happened six thousand years ago. (so any good Evangelical will tell you)

    But really, don’t bother with arguing Gravity Mr. Verdon. Argue the age of the Universe, the Galaxy, the Sun, the Earth, the Moon, Rocks, Life,

    even argue that the dating of the first human colonization of the American Continents to 17,000,000 years ago contradicts the Bible interpretation.

    Creationism is disputed by EVERY science, not just Evolutionary Science.

    And Intelligent Design is just a joke. I want a Christian who believes in a compasionate God to explain why he put an exploding time bomb (my appendix) in the human body of a teenager. I want a Christian who believes in a compasionate God to explain to me why HALF of all conceptions miscarry.

    Evolution explains these things, Intelligent Design does not.

  • * Mitt Romney — Believes in evolution. “In my opinion, the science class is where to teach evolution.”

    Wow. And here I thought I didn’t agree with Mitt on anything. Good to hear he’s at least sane on this issue.

    Neil,

    How about gravity? Is it “just” a theory too?

  • Silly Carpetbagger, the theory of gravity is bunk, it was was disproven when I walked on water. And how else can you explain a 70 year old man like John McCain doing multiple backflips?

    What I’d like the candidates to publicly declare is whether they believe the earth is millions of years old or only thousands of years old. That’ll sort out the evildoers from the faithful few.

  • Ah, Neil,

    Yes, Humans are descended (oh how I hate that term. It ought to be Ascended) from primates and on back to the shrew like creatures that darted around the feet of the Dinosaurs.

    But not from Monkeys.

  • Geez, Lance… “the dating of the first human colonization of the American Continents to 17,000,000 years ago”

    I think you got about three extra zeros there.

  • The Bible says that creation happened six thousand years ago.

    It also says that Pi is equal to 3.0. I really don’t want an engineer of any stripe using the Bible as their source of “facts” and science.

  • What I’d like the candidates to publicly declare is whether they believe the earth is millions of years old or only thousands of years old. That’ll sort out the evildoers from the faithful few.

    Beautiful.

  • Neil said, “Gravel is wrong. We, humans, are NOT descendants of monkeys, period.” While that statement may not be technically true, I’m sure the Creationists would be equally incensed by the 100% FACTUAL statement that we humans share a COMMON ANCESTOR with our fellow primates. The whole “descending from monkeys” meme was a right-wing tactic employed to drum up sympathy with their cause . . . generations ago! As usual, the right-wingers use the scare tactics to appeal to the lowest common denominator, while we liberals attempt to convince the public using (gasp!) logic. It’s time we came up with a few catchy slogans and easily-digestible memes of our own on these hot-button issues, so that the average Joe will come to our side, and, as a result, our country will finally move forward.

    Hard to believe that we, as a country, have not moved on from this issue since the Scopes trial!

  • Neil Neil Neil… they say ignorance is bliss, you must be a happy man. We are descendants of primates, NOT the monkeys you see at the zoo.

    Cxan you explain why primate and human DNA are over 98% the same?

  • “Ron Paul — Rejects biological evolution as ‘a theory.'”

    i know he’s no economist (see “tax policy and return to the gold standard”), but how in the hell did this chucklehead make it through pre-med and med school? don’t biology grades have some bearing on med school admissions? and doesn’t biology play at least a teeny little role in a lot of med school classes?

    just askin’……

  • Edo:

    I am not an expert in relativity and it has been a while since I have studied post calculus non Euclidian geometry but

    I don’t believe gravity exists at all. I think what looks like gravity is just the result of the mass of objects warping space-time.

    Lance:

    I am a little confused. Are you saying that monkeys are are great, great … great grandparents? or distant cousins?

    Anyway, since you all love to attack me so much, could someone tell me what I wrote that was not correct?

  • Neil, Are you a scientist? As Edo asked, how about the Theory of Gravity? Perhaps we should consider the concept of Intelligent Falling, where something (perhaps….God???) actually pushes things down or lifts them up (i.e. helium baloons).
    Please Neil, as a reasonable comservative or moderate (or whatever you consider yourself), we respect your views, but perhaps you should only comment on areas where you have some knowledge.

  • Lance – you’re the man – I especially like the time you pipped Dominguez at the Td Georgia on that down hil run to the line when Hincapie led it out – beautiful.

    Anyway…I think man has 99% of the sam genes as an apple…what does that mean…we are descendants of apples?.

    BTW Ron Paul know more about economics than many “economists”. He studied it with great passion on his own.

  • mellowjohn,

    Ron Paul’s time in med school occurred just when DNA was discovered (1961.) His views on evolution and biology make as much sense as a retired electrical engineer advocating the vacuum tube replacing the IC for all electronics.

  • Just a little trivia:

    Hillary Clinton has more DNA in common with some primates than he does with President Bush.

  • “Do you believe in evolution?” is a stupid, stupid question. It isn’t a matter of faith or belief. It’s a question about a position on science. Asking the question in this manner accepts the frame that religious faith is a valid reason for choosing one’s position.

    It’s too bad that the word theory means different things to different people. To scientists, any framework postulated to explain observed facts is a theory, so dismissing relativity, gravity, or evolution as only a theory is complete nonsense. To scientists, everything is a “only a theory.” But in ordinary usage, a theory is an opinion or guess.

    So here is the right question to ask the candidates: “Which is better supported by the observed facts: the theory of evolution, or the theories of creationism or intelligent design?”

    Then watch the creationists’ heads explode.

  • just bill:

    what did I say that was wrong???

    Please, I am not an expert here. i was a math major. I had a physics minor so I might not be too good on the theory of gravity.

    I still have trouble Schrödinger’s cat

  • Neil:
    “I don’t believe gravity exists at all. I think what looks like gravity is just the result of the mass of objects warping space-time.”

    Like, uh,Dude! What are you smoking? Can I buy some?

  • Right or wrong, I certainly miss Gravel’s performance in the debates. He sure gets fired up.

  • citizen pain:

    I really don’t know the age of the earth.

    My guru on this is a trumpet player from George Mason University: Dr. Robert M Hazen. He is one of the best public speakers I know. Look him up on the web.

    So, since he thinks the earth is older than 6,000 years and he knows a lot more about it than either of us, I have to go with his judgement.

    The earth is more than 6000 years old.

    Does that make you happy?

  • It’s been awhile since I brushed up on my Hawking. At any rate, Neil seems to be a smart guy. Too bad he doesn’t have more common sense; for anyone to support republican points nowadays speaks volumes about their gullibility.

  • Newton was WRONG

    His LAWS of thermodynamics don’t work.

    Hard to see how this is possible, given that Newton didn’t formulate the Laws of Thermodynamics.

  • Neil:

    That’s the great thing about science. There is no revealed, immutable, eternal truth in science, even though that makes some people very uncomfortable. Even a genius like Newton can be proved “wrong,” although Newton’s “errors” are actually just necessary amplifications made by scientists who built on his work. Like the word “theory,” the word “law” means something different to scientists than it does in ordinary conversation.

    That said:

    Which is better supported by the observed facts: the theory of evolution, or the theories of creationism or intelligent design?

    Based on available evidence, how old is the Earth? The Universe?

  • I can’t fathom how a person can make a run for the presidency of the US in 2008 and not agree that the theory of evolution has, at the very least, as much credence as creationism. I suppose they don’t believe that Cronos swallowed Hestia and her siblings immediately after she was born. Or that the coyote god stole the baby of the water monster, who brought a great flood in the third world. Or that Ross and Rachel ever really got married.

    Tom Robbins said it best, “Faith is believing something that you know isn’t true.”

  • Neil,

    Don’t forget the immortal words of Dr. Leo Spaceman [pronounced: spuh-CHEH-muhn]: “Today, science can be whatever you want it to be.”

  • I wish people would quit comparing the “theory” of gravity to the “theory” of evolution. While there are theories that work to integrate gravity with other physical forces (known as GUTs, or Grand Unified Theories), the reality of gravity is stated in a law known as Newton’s Law of Gravity. Those who refuse to accept that variation by natural selection accounts for today’s biological diversity are obviously deluded, but let’s not help their cause by handing them bad arguments. Okie has phrased the question just right. It doesn’t make any sense to ask if someone “believes” in evolution. Indeed, I’d take Okie’s question a step further and ask anyone who rejects evolution to give a better accounting. ID is no threat here. It has failed miserably to do so.

  • CB, this post could be composed a little better so it’s easier for the eye to follow and easier for a mind to retain the info.

    In your first bullet, you use the word “rejects” to refer to evolutionary biology, but in the second bullet, you apply it to “intelligent-design creationism,” and down in the Ron Paul bullet, it’s applied to “biological evolution.” Not consistently labeling the pro-evolution or anti-evolution camp with a single term for each compounds the problem. Wouldn’t it have been better to just group the candidates by pro-evolution or anti-, and then put an (R) or (D) after their names? If you can draw a chart and insert it, even better.

    I don’t know who’s helping you write your posts recently, but they sure aren’t doing you or your readers any favors.

    Also, I think it’s worth noting that- for a politician- Ron Paul has been just vague enough on this that we can’t say where he’s going to go on this issue if his fortunes change one way or the other in the future.

  • I actually think we are descended from Cylons. But thanks to the writers’ strike, this probably won’t be confirmed or reputed until spring 2009, if then.

    (Life here began Out There.)

  • Based on available evidence, how old is the Earth? The Universe?

    How about we ammend that to: “Approximately how old is the Earth? The Universe”?

    That way we preempt, the “I don’t know exactly how old it is” non-response.

    I’ll go first: the Earth: more than a billion years; the Universe, more than 2 billion years.

  • Meh. Long time lurker, first time commenter here.

    Neil, you brought me out of the woodwork.

    Of course Newton was wrong. Classical mechanics is a first-approximation to the more accurate modern theories.

    “I think what looks like gravity is just the result of the mass of objects warping space-time.” Of course it is. That is the theory of gravity. Modern, relativistic, post-Newton gravity. Jeez.

    And …

    “I am a little confused. Are you saying that monkeys are are great, great … great grandparents? or distant cousins?”

    Saying this indicates that you don’t know that much about what the theory of evolution actually is. Really, I don’t mean to be rude, but I’ve got to say it. There’s nothing wrong with that; but please don’t pretend that you do understand, and that you understand better than those who spend their lives working in the field.

    There are lots of resources — web sites, books — that go over this in glorious and even fun detail. Why not head over to one of those?

  • OK, everyone. Look back at CB’s original post and the quote from Steve Verdon. Evolution is not a theory. It may have been back in the 18th and 19 centuries, but it has long since become an observed fact. What is a theory is the mechanism(s) of evolution. Hence, the analogy to gravity. Gravity is an observable fact, but there are various theories about how it works.

    As for humans and monkeys, no humans are not descended (or ascended if you prefer) from monkeys (or chimps or gorillas or orangatangs or lemurs, etc). We are all cousins to varying degrees, being descended from a common ancestor.

    And by the way, we do not share 99% of our DNA with an apple, so that was a rather silly comment. Also the STRUCTURE of DNA was discovered in the mid 1950’s, before Ron Paul got out of school, so he has no excuse there.

  • Well, you can have it three ways:

    Vote for a candidate who accepts evolution and will stop the Iraq war…at an appropriate time, of course.

    Vote for a candidate who does not accept evolution and will not stop the Iraq war.

    Vote for Ron Paul who does not accept evolution but will end the Iraq war immediately, oh, and has a few ideas about how to deal with our little economy/debt problem. And our devalued currency, and our Patriot Act problem, our global interventionism/Pax Americana problem,ect, ect.

    I accept evolution but at the time I am more concerned with the state of my country than whether or not the President accepts evolution.

  • Edo:

    I was really interested in the age of the universe a few years ago when they had good evidence that the oldest stars were 16 billion years old and the universe was only 13 billion years old.

    I looked at the evidence and it all seemed very convincing. Of course, the two results contradicted each other. That is what makes science so interesting. You can have really good evidence to support something and it can turn out to be totally wrong.

    I like framing the questiion this way

    So here is the right question to ask the candidates: “Which is better supported by the observed facts: the theory of evolution, or the theories of creationism or intelligent design?”

  • Re #6: Excuse me My Lord. I will in the future attempt to be more careful with my zeros. 17,000 years ago Humans first colonized the American Continents, which would be about 11,000 years before Victorian Theologists placed the creation of the Universe, the Sun, the Earth and the Americas.

    Re #22: It’s true that Newtonian orbital mechanics are not correct. But they are close enough to ground truth for NASA to use them for their calculations rather than Einstein’s rather more complicated calculations. After all, we didn’t miss the Moon or the Earth coming back.

    Re #14: What the hell was that all about? Anyway, Humans and Chimpanzees share 98% of the same genes, and in fact Chimpanzees have more gene pairs than humans. Further, even after our two evolutionary trees diverged genetic analysis shows that some of our female ancestors messed around with some of the Chimp boys (sort of like a Grey Wolf messing with a Coyote, which results in Red Wolves by the way). Kind of scary that. But we are certainly not 99% related to Apples.

    Re #10: That’s actually a selling point of Intelligent Design. The Designer uses the same blue prints for each species and only makes the minimal changes necessary to create the next.

    Re #12: Neil, if you meant to say in #1 that Gravel was wrong because he said we were descended from Monkeys then you were technically correct. And I thought my reply was to that and yes, we are evolutionary cousins to all primates which includes Apes, Monkeys and Lemurs as well as all extinct humaniods (Neaderthal, etc.) which are not our direct ancestors.

    Again, slowly just for you.
    Evolution is an observed scientific fact.
    Evolutionary Theories that explain evolution (puntucated, gradual, etc) are scientific theories.
    The Bible is a self-contradictory document.
    Creationism is not a science and is contradicted by every Real Science which establishes the age of anything.
    Intelligent Design is a very weak hypothesis trying to prove itself by finding “holes” in existing evolutionary theories and demanding that those holes never be closed over it.

    Are we all clear now?

  • You could have just wrote two sentences like this:

    “A, B, and C believe in evolution or have said it should be taught in schools.

    X, Y, and Z have said the opposite.”

    And then you could have written a paragraph or two, group by pro- and con-, explaining what they each specifically said. Then you could have noted Ron Paul is a little flaky.

    In its place, this is like fertilizer for confusion:

    * Mike Huckabee — Rejects evolutionary biology, but says it shouldn’t matter.

    * John McCain — Has rejected, embraced, and rejected again intelligent-design creationism.

    * Mitt Romney — Believes in evolution. “In my opinion, the science class is where to teach evolution.”

    * Rudy Giuliani — Refuses to say and “successfully discouraged key advisors from speaking to Science about specific issues.”

    * Duncan Hunter — Told the Creation Studies Institute that would “support and encourage a more open approach to education in the presentation of scientific facts that contradict the theory of evolution.”

    * Ron Paul — Rejects biological evolution as “a theory.”

    * Fred Thompson — Has apparently never said publicly either way.

    And then, there are the Dems.

    * Hillary Clinton — Believes in evolution.

    * John Edwards — Believes in evolution.

    * Barack Obama — Hasn’t been quoted on modern biology, but rejects intelligent-design creationism.

    * Dennis Kucinich — Hasn’t been quoted on the subject.

    * Mike Gravel — Has been rather emphatic on the subject. “My God, evolution is a fact, and if these people are disturbed by being the descendants of monkeys and fishes, they’ve got a mental problem. We can’t afford the psychiatric bill for them. That ends the story as far as I’m concerned.”

  • If you look at what the post really is about, it has nothing to do with science, it has everything to do with getting elected. The positions taken by the Republicans have very little to do with the understanding of scientific principles and concepts but reflects them bowing to the pressures of their base constituencies. This is the true “political correctness” in action. Politics demand the righty candidates parrot what the righty base desires them to say. This whole debate is simply a litmus test to determine whether candidates are, in the eye of religious fundamentalists, with them or against them. There is no middle ground with the religious right’s Manichean mindset.

  • ***comment 1 Neil***you missed the point. Gravity is a fact…how it operates is the theory. Same with evolution. Evolution is a fact…how it operates is the theory. Things that are observable are the facts…why or how they operate that way is the theory.

    The Bible does not conflict with evolution. Only by making it a literal translation can one make it conflict with evolution. It is filled with contradictions that these creationists ignore…like where did Cain’s wife come from…after he was cast out he went down the road and took a wife…where did she come from. Let there be light …Bang…the big bang. Days lasted millions of years. God breathed life into his creation should not be taken literally. These creationist people just want power over others and go out of their way to be divisive…even to the point of denying science and observable facts…they back up their fantasies with phrases like “the devil is just using science to confuse you”. They gain power by being separate or ‘chosen’ so better than those not having their ‘special’ knowledge. Fanatics are devoid of reason by their closed mindedness.

  • There is probably little left to say on this subject, but to someone who taught the history and philosophy of science, as well as its role in society, I am weary of explaining the difference between the term ‘theory’ and its unfortunate interchangeable common usage with the term ‘hypothesis’.

    People at all educational levels, and ideologies, use ‘theory’ when they really mean ‘hypothesis’.

    Using ‘theory’ to dismissing evolution as ‘only speculation is ridiculous. In science, a theory provides a testable explanation for many observed phenomena, and evolutionary mechanisms have been tested repeatedly. A hypothesis is an educated guess that requires testing. That not all aspects or assertions about evolutionary history (as opposed to evolutionary biology) have gained acceptance even in the scientific community is perfectly normal for a theory, because in science explanations change as more tested information becomes available, but the general underlying principles of evolution are biological facts. That these facts are inconvenient to some, but certainly not all, people of religious convictions doesn’t reduce evolution from a well-tested theory to an unsubstantiated hypothesis.

    We don’t know how gravity came about, or how to control the force between two masses that we call gravity, but that doesn’t change our ability to predict gravity’s behavior with considerable accuracy. We have managed space travel.

    Science is about explaining how things work, not why. The fight about evolution is essentially a ‘why’ fight not a ‘how’ fight.

    Lastly, it is only in this benighted, and religion besotted country, that evolution is an issue.

    Now why is that?

  • mellowjohn@11 asks the question I would ask if I was sitting in Dr Paul’s medical office. Not believe in evolution? Did you skip your biology courses in college and med school? Do I want you as a doctor? Do I want you as President? NO – restoundingly – to the two last questions.

  • Gravel is absolutely correct. He did not say we were descended from monkeys. People that are disturbed by this [incorrect statement] are insane. By extension, we can assume they are equally disturbed if they knew humans descended from other “lower” forms, be they apples [incorrect], fish [incorrect, at least in the sense of modern species], or primates [sort of correct].

  • neil wilson said: “Lance, “scientific fact” does not exist.”

    There’s another kind of fact other than scientific?

    Should I say observed fact?

    Are you being delusional again? Evolution happens. We have seen and recorded it. Thus it is a fact. And one discovered by science. Hence, Scientific Fact.

    Don’t fall for semantic games from Theocrats trying to impose Religious Doctrines on our children to better manipulate them in the future.

  • There are little things known as “X chromosomes” and “Y chromosomes.”

    Because of this, Hillary Clinton has about as much DNA in common with John McCain as she does with a female bonobo. George Bush has about as much DNA in common with Nancy Pelosi as he does with a male chimpanzee.

  • MW (#39) et. al.,

    Everyone seems to be overlooking a major difference between the theories of gravity and evolution. Evolution is typically discussed as it relates to how we got where we are. Gravity is primarily discussed as a predictor of future outcomes. For example, the evolution of man is a theory, because we have no recorded observations of a hominid evolving from a primate. Now, we can observe natural selection (the mechanism of evolution) in fast-reproducing species like bacteria and fruit flies. In that sense, evolution can be claimed to be an “observed fact”. Furthermore, we can extrapolate from this that every creeping thing on the earth was a product of natural selection against previous sets of species, and so on back to some common ancestors. But I daresay that the evolution of vertebrates has NOT been observed because it requires a time scale longer than recorded human history.

    So, the statement that “evolution is a theory” boils down to semantics. I can certainly grant to the creationists that no one has “observed” man evolving from apes, and so that explanation is at best, a theory. To accept the evolution of man from apes as “fact”, you need one assumption…that the universe has always worked the way it works today. Now while this seems perfectly reasonable, the creationists and the multiversalists (the proponents that quantum randomness generates a “fork” in a tree of universes, and some sets of universes have different properties than ours) would both agree to disagree on this axiom — for different reasons. In much the same way as denying Euclid’s parallel postulate brought about interesting new ways to view geometry, denying the Universal Law postulate can do the same for physics…but that’s another blog universe entirely.

    [btw…that’s two mentions of Euclid in a single comment threat on a left-leaning political blog…I love America]

  • There is little science in play in the debate over origins teaching. Inert matter can’t write DNA code to make people or the simplest cell. Language use indicated a conscious mind. Intelligent Design basics are a good starting point for biology study.

  • I’ve been hanging at the CBR for quite a while, and this has to be the single most discouraging thread I’ve ever read. Scientific literacy is in much worse shape than I thought. That aside…

    I think the point we’re qualified to consider here is this — that the willingness of a candidate to deny evidence in order to cling to a belief is irrational and dangerous. As we’ve seen across the board in the Bush administration, the willingness to deny evidence and favor ideology is not limited to evolution, but extends to health, economics, justice, war — everything.

  • queman @54: Inert matter can’t write DNA code to make people or the simplest cell.

    And I suppose you have evidence proving this negative? Not to mention that “origins” (aka abiogenesis) does not hypothesize “inert –> DNA”, even if the early Earth were anything remotely like “inert” and not a hot, steaming, roiling cauldron of assorted chemicals.

  • Intelligent Design basics are a good starting point for biology study. -queman

    No, it isn’t. Keep it out of the schools. When it’s observable, when it’s testable, then we can discuss having it in curricula.

  • Ron Paul would scare me as a physician, as well as, a candidate.

    Someone commented about why does this question matter with the current state of affairs in the U.S.? Simply because if a candidate answers against evolution they are likely to reject scientific solutions to our problems and rely on talking to an invisible man.

  • Evolution is not a fact. Evolution is a theory. It is probably a correct theory but one never knows.
    We, humans, are NOT descendants of monkeys, period. — neil wilson

    neil wilson is back? You’re a Romney supporter, how do you feel about your favorite candidate supporting evolution?

    Also, props to Gravel, I didn’t realize that he was actually right/useful about anything.

  • Nautilator said: “Also, props to Gravel, I didn’t realize that he was actually right/useful about anything.”

    Solidly against the war isn’t right enough for you?

  • We probably are descended from monkeys. That is, not from modern monkeys, but from an ancestor that could probably be defined as a monkey. Hominoids, which consist of greater and lesser apes (humans are greater apes) split from the Old World Monkeys about 25 million years ago. Fossil evidence from around that time point to a monkey-like concestor. Source-Dawkin’s “The Ancestor’s Tale” pages 116-140.

  • Natural Selection and Evolution are ‘laws’ in the same vein as Newton’s Gravity and Einstein’s Light.

    If you say ‘a coin falls down’ is a fact, so is ‘biological entities change over time’.

    That’s Evolution.

  • PS, I love Gravel. He’d have made a great President.

    …Ron Paul wouldn’t even take insurance. While I have paid for the majority of my medical care out of pocket, that doesn’t particularly endear him to me.

  • Evidently few people here have heard of a ‘common ancester’. We didn’t descend from the ‘apes’, according to the evidence. Both apes and homo-sapiens had a common ancester, but evolved differently.

    Science does not allow for miracles.

    Science assumes, absent evidence to the contrary, that the rules governing the physical and biological world operate with regularity and are essentially constant.

    It’s important to understand what science is and it isn’t. Similarly with religion. Let’s not confuse the two.

  • Look. I am all for religious freedom. That is, after all, one of the founding principles of the country. And I am a benefactor of this great gift of the Constitution. But no matter how you try to gussy it up, intelligent design is just Biblical Creation repackaged with scientific sounding double-speak.

    Science involves observation of what we see, touch, smell, hear or taste and developing a hypothesis to explain it. Then that hypothesis is tested using real scientific methods and careful documentation of the observations. Based on the data collected, the hypothesis becomes more likely to be true or less likely. Then, the hypothesis is systematically refined based on what was learned and new tests are performed. When enough tests have been performed and reviewed by enough scientists, the hypothesis is consisdered to e a theory. And thus, over time, we learn more and more about how things really work.

    Intelligent design begins with the assumption that every word in an ancient text, written down by people who came along centuries later, translated and re-translated and re-re-translated, is the 100% undeniable truth. Keep in mind that the world view of the peoples who passed on these stories encompassed everything up to that mountain over there. Then you perform any number of mental contortions to try force science to fit the preconceived notions laid out in the text. Dress it up with enough scienctific sounding jargon and many people will believe it is actual science. Which, is the real goal. Make it sound like a scientific theory and maybe you can force biblical creation into the science classroom and muddle a few impressionable young minds.

    I am all for a comparative religions class in public schools. One that takes a historical and impartial look at serveral of the great religious movements, but does not lift one above the others. That is the proper venue for religon in the classroom.

    The problem is that many people who take the biblical creation story literally, do not want their children to hear about evolution or other religious ideas at all. What they really want is for only their one narrow vision of things to ever be heard. What they really want is a Chistian version of the Taliban.

    This is why intelligent design must be taken as a serious thread and crushed.

  • Evolution is a scientific FACT. A theory in science is much different word from what its normal use is. Evolution is a theory because we there are still aspects of it that we can learn from.

  • dumb fucking republicans: please don’t have an “opinion” on science… it doesn’t become you.

  • All the people that say evolution is just a theory need to go back to school and re-take science 101. If they did that they would learn that a theory, in the scientific community, is a fact. There is nothing higher than a theory, gravity is a theory, all Newtonian mechanics is a theory, things we know to be true are given the title theory. People that argue that evolution is just a theory do not understand the concept of a theory in the scientific sense.

  • Something is missing from this discussion, and that is the possibility of being both a Christian and an evolutionist. I am both. What so astounds me is the idea that Christianity (or let’s be more general, religion) and science are contradictory. And this idea is fueled by creationists who foolishly take some parts of the Bible literally, like Genesis and most of the Old Testament. I can be a Christian and an evolutionist with the knowledge that some sections of the Bible are not to be taken literally, but are to be understood for their symbolic quality.

    Also, just to clarify: You will not find in the Bible any reference to the age in which the universe and earth were created. Genesis tells us that the universe was made in 7 days, but no where does it say when it was created. The information that has so ruinously led to this absurd discussion came from Protestant “Biblical scholars” in the 19th century who, using Biblical geneologies, dated the earth’s creation to around 3,000 BC.

  • The fact that there exist candidates who hope to lead such a modern country still who still believe that they were popped into existence is really sad and pathetic. These people ought to give themselves a reality check
    I agree, Evolution is a “theory”
    but it is one very well supported theory; with almost infallible experimental evidence
    Can anybody provide EXPERIMENTAL evidence of intelligent design/creation
    now, I am not undermining the existence of God – not even going there
    just saying that evolution has logical evidence supporting it; creationism has a book called the Bible that supposedly popped out of the sky just like the rest of us did
    I think people get carried away with attributing stuff to creationism – and creationists love to jump on every glitch that evolution runs into – well scientists cannot get everything right the first time – like the Bible can, right?
    people used to say the earth was flat and the universe revolved around the earth until it was proven otherwise – and it is the same now – it is the same attitude being taken towards our origin
    making a blanket statement that we were “created” is a foolish thing to say when there is so much mounting evidence for evolution
    Furthermore; studying evolution has actually gotten society somewhere; and has the potential to drive society forward more scientifically: and what has creationism given us? Yeah that’s right: nothing but fanatical extremist views and zero logical basis – creationists should be given the same raise of the eyebrow that would be given someone who said “I firmly believe that the Earth is flat”

  • If one wants to pick at nits, technically gravity is a theory. Scientists haven’t figured out how/why it works, only that it does.

  • I just wanted to point out that Romney said:

    “In my opinion, the science class is where to teach evolution.”

    This doesn’t mean that he believes that evolution led to the origin of man, it only means that the classroom is the place to teach evolution. Because I am a Mormon as well I assume that Romney would add that church is the place to teach us where we come from. Our religion doesn’t deny evolution, we just teach that God created us in his own image. There are some Mormons that believe that God created us through evolution and some that do not. I’m not exactly sure which category Mitt Romney falls into on that one.

  • Thanks Alex, I was really wondering if anyone would ever bring up the FACT that you can be a Christian and believe in God AND believe in evolution. The above debate is really kind of sickening to me. I wish that more “evolutionists” would look more objectively at Christian views and the Bible and not just brush them off as foolishness. I wish more of the Christian world would take a closer look at evolution and challenge their own faith and question whether the two are compatible or not without ignorantly dismissing new ideas, ie. evolution.

    The Bible says that God created the earth and all of the creatures on it in seven days. Days does not refer to days of 24 hours each, but six indefinite periods wherein the earth was created. Also, the Hebrew root of the word created also means “organized” or, in other words, to take of elements or materials already in existence and to organize them into something else. If this is what actually happened on our earth, this may explain why scientists can date the earth as millions or billions of years old, be correct, all without undermining Christian theology.

    Isn’t interesting that this gravity vs. evolutionism vs. christianity mess was supposed to be about politics?

  • I don’t “believe” in evolution. I understand and accept evolution.

    “I don’t understand it! It must be Magic!” – Sam Seder

  • And it matters – why? What does this have to do with fixing the economy and other important issues?

    If people vote on the evolution issue alone – God help America.

  • What you say about Obama doesnt follow from the Bailey piece. I dont see anywhere in it that suggests Obama “rejects inteligent design creationism”. Its impossible to tell from it what he believes.

    I think he needs to be asked this, because from what I understand, his church preahes creationism (along with praise for Louis Farrakhan). Its a… radical black church.

  • If evolution isn’t real, then why are we losing our back teeth as a species? All dentists know that since we don’t have to rip our meat up anymore, we no longer need our back teeth and over the centuries (and possibly millennia) we are losing them.
    I only have 3 wisdom teeth.

    Accepting evolution does not mean you reject creationism. This is the biggest impasse between the two schools of thought. The intelligence design people want the rest of us to accept their “theory” of how the earth was created. The difference is that evolution continues to this day and intelligence design, if true, occurred just once over 6 days.

  • Alex, thanks for pointing that out. It’s getting really tiresome to always be put on the defensive. In my country (Germany), comparative religious studies are taught as a philosphy class in middle school; evolution is taught in biology in middle school. In high school is where philosophy class deals with “creation stories,” which is where evolution is pitted alongside whatever other creation stories, and where these creation stories are really looked at historically. If anyone knows anything about the generation of the first bible texts, the mistranslation of “eon” into “day” would be the first thing to raise a red flag, not to speak of the political circumstances of the Bible’s final composition. The thing is, people in this country don’t learn about that in the public school system. That’s why this discussion of evolution vs. creationism is still a topic.

  • Neil,

    Would you mind defining (scientifically) what distinguishes us from primates? Can you do that? Can you scientifically define “soul” or “consciousness”?

    All the objections to evolution are based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. Is that a reasonable interpretation? Before you answer, tell me should you also interpret the Koran, Bhagavadgita or Kalevala literally? Or The Silmarillion, for that matter. What’s the difference?

    People should read a bit more about the scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) and well… read more. Tv sucks.

  • If one believes the church to be “anti-science”, then how does one reconcile that with the “fact” that the Catholic church recognizes evolution as a valid teaching?

    It is not religion that does not recognize evolution as a valid science, but the same backwards fundies that still believe that a woman should be subservient their husbands and must ask for their permission to work outside the home, and that safe sex shouldn’t be taught because condoms don’t “work”. (Southern Baptists, for one.)

    These people are ideologically driven hypocrites who pick their fights to spread their philosophy. They would like nothing better than to drag us back to the Middle Ages so that they can get a “do-over”. As far as many of them are concerned, there has been no progress in humankind since that time, and any so-called “progress” is the Devil’s doing.

    So I guess in one sense they are right – there is no evolution. At least not in the knowledge and learning of a certain segment of society.

  • Evolution has been proven using DNA .Yes , Proven.. Flat Out. To subscribe to a fairy tale dogma should be saved for santa claus and the easter bunny.

  • All of the pro-evolutionists answering this blog have fallen into the same trap laid by all creationists arguing the question. Why not play the creationist game and instead of trying to defend evolution, attack creationism. My 8 year old daughter came home from a gymnastics meet and bluntly asked me, “why is god named Harold?” I was dumbfounded but asked her where she got that idea. She said that before each gymnastic meet, the instructor led them in the lord’s prayer. “Our father who art in heaven, HAROLD be thy name”. I laughed heartily but thought it time to tell her about the virgin birth, etc. She looked at me and asked…”let me get this straight…if Jane (her older sister) came home from school and was pregnant but claimed she never had sex…you’d buy that?” Where did Jesus get that Y chromosome from. Virgin birth occurs in nature (rotifers, insects, a variety of other invertebrates) but the new progeny are females. For Mary to give birth to a male, there had to be Y carrying sperm. Of course, many would say god proffered the sperm…but then he/she wouldn’t be god but rather mortal and sexual. Religious families brainwash their children in youth and that neural hardwiring is very difficult to overcome. New parents should give their kids a chance to develop reasoning minds and then allow them to make their own choices.

  • Oh my goodness, the question of whether a presidential candidate believes in the scientific theory of evolutionary biology is CRUCIAL. It’s critical that he or she understands and employs the scientific methods of logic, critical thinking, empirical evidence, and dispassion at a minimum in order to help undo and untangle the utter mess that had been made by this maladministration.

    I encourage all who may read my post to watch the currently re-released “Cosmos” series written by the late, great Dr. Carl Sagan (Discovery channel). In it he makes a passionate case for humanity on the very brink of self-destruction, fueled in part by the giving over of our vast stores of intellect, reason, and compassion to religiosity, superstition, fanaticism, tribalism– the dark, reptilian part of our natures. It is not too late to choose the better course for humanity and our fragile planet. Not quite too late.

  • What gets me is those who cannot understand that the universe was created by a Big Bang [theory] from supposedly nothing, believe that there was someone – living in nothing, without even a chair to sit on – reached into his virtual toolbox, then into his non-existent parts supply and put together this universe, which is still expanding.

  • On January 10th, 2008 at 3:47 pm, Paul said:

    What Paul said! We have more pressing issues here!

  • I just tried the gravity test. I dropped a penny and it didn’t land on the floor. It landed on my dog’s back.

  • While I support Ron Paul, and accept the fact that both evolution and intelligent design are theories, I break ranks with Paul here and say that I believe in evolution.

  • Okiefrommuskeogi Right on. “Belief” has nothing to do with Evolutionary Theory. Blame the ignorant reporter who framed the question. I recall when Pat Bucannan was running for Pres. he loudly declared, like Mike Gravel, that he was not descended from monkeys. At the time I thought, monkeys all over the world must have breathed a sigh of relief.

  • The gentleman who commented that evolution is not a fact, but a theory, needs to take remedial seventh grade biology. Evolution is indeed a fact. It has been observed not only in the fossil record, but also in the present-day wild and in the laboratory.

    The THEORY of evolution is the theory that best explains OBSERVABLE facts.

    Furthermore, evolution can be influenced. Immunologists routinely force mutation in an effort to create treatments for diseases caused by mutating bacteria and viruses.

  • Seems like US presidential elections would have been simple for me (if i lived in the us that is …): Mike Gravel is the only one that a) makes sense, b) isn’t too much of a coward (aka: afraid of losing potential voices) in his “believes”

  • ** How the invisible hand kills off “designer gods” **

    Methodologically, whenever so-called “sacred” writings make claims about the natural world, they are subject to exactly the same forces of refutation as any other empirical claim. There is no “executive privilege” for God.

    There are no longer any naive arguers from design. All of them died before 1901.
    Since then they’ve all been liars.

    >> The “Invisible Hand” writes its own script.

    Complex systems can and do arise from simple events, including random events.

    The first adequate theoretical “reduction” of earth-bound empirical complexity to simplicity comes (I think) from the Scottish economic philosopher, Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations (1776).

    Smith’s famous unintended “invisible hand”, which is microeconomic capitalism, arises from simple economic exchanges in a market of fair competition among vendors. The market is an emergent (abstract) complex entity which arises from a sum-over of simple exchanges.

    There is no need for a ‘god of economics’ to design the market — under specified mechanisms of exchange, it forms itself.

    >> Speciation by descent, not by essence.

    Darwin solved a supposedly insuperable empirical puzzle for a very wide (not universal) set of events in the history of life: how do complex life forms arise from simpler ones.

    He knew exactly what he had done and what deep ingratitude he would receive. In 1844, when Darwin put his mature ideas in writing with instructions to his wife that they be published should he die, natural theology was still intellectually respectable. By 1850, the fossil record and Lyell’s concept of deep time had prepared an acute mind like Tennyson’s to abandon Nature” as solace – – “Nature red in tooth and claw.” (“In Memoriam.” LVI 1850.)

    Darwin knew how maligned, even shunned he would be by Society — he was after all a bona fide “gentleman” quite aware of the perks of his class and the esteem earned by his vast and thoroughly “respectable” empirical research.

    Forced to “come out” in 1858, Darwin did not refer to his view with the already suspect term “evolution” but as “descent with modification.” What was so radical, so disturbing to his contemporaries? His mechanism for descent with modification which Darwin called “natural selection”.

    What makes natural selection so uncomfortable? In operation, it has no goal and achieves no purpose. Speciation is a random trial-and-error process dependent upon differential reproductive success — in a determinate ecological setting. (Darwin proposed no account of the origin of life . . . as the title of his great work makes clear — On the origin of species.)

    >> The god of ID is a nothing . . . a zero

    Life in its multitudinous complex forms requires no spiritual force, no élan vital, no teleological principle, no purpose, no design.

    A designer for evolution is as superfluous as a designer for economics. And for exactly the same reason.

    bipolar2
    © 2007

  • So I realize that this is a liberal website, and me, only a sixteen year old conservative Christian, tries to talk on it, you will all probably think that I don’t know what I am talking about, but I have been reading some comments about evolution and how the theory and the Bible contradict and Lance asked a question about how a God could be loving and still have all these horrible things happen in the world. But the thing is, is that I know there is a God, and I know that he loves us all whether we believe in him or not. He has to give us opposition, Lance. Look at it this way. If your whole life you only ate things that were sweet, would you know that it was sweet? No. But if suddenly you ate something sour, then you would know the difference between the two. Just like how if God only gave us things to be happy about, we wouldn’t know we were happy, we would just be. But he gives us trials to 1) know what true happiness is and 2) because these trials do make us stronger. And you know that second one is true whether you believe in God or not.

    So that’s all that I really wanted to say. I know that I haven’t converted you all to my beliefs or anything. But I always believe that seeing the other point of view is important, even if you will never believe it.

  • Comments are closed.