Clinton and Obama and the media … oh my

Lately, a major point of discussion, especially over the last couple of weeks, is whether the media favors one candidate over another. I’m generally an agnostic on the question, at least as it relates to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. I’m far more inclined, however, to suggest news outlets go ridiculously easy on John McCain, and were generally unfair to John Edwards.

But the topic d’ jour, of course, is Obama-Clinton, and the Clinton campaign’s argument that reporters are significantly harsher towards the New York senator than the Democratic frontrunner. Matt Yglesias, an Obama backer who concedes that Obama has gotten “better press” than Clinton, raises an interesting point that I hadn’t seen raised elsewhere.

Still, I think Clinton fans are going more than a little overboard with this monocausal account of the campaign. For one thing, one important exception to this is that if Obama had lost eleven contests in a row, there’s no way he’d still be treated as a viable candidate. Similarly, if Obama had reached a situation where nobody can mathematically see a way for Clinton to catch his lead without altering DNC rules, I seriously doubt the race would continue to be covered as a serious competition.

From another direction, even though the press has often been unfair to Clinton about petty stuff, they have been very willing to go along with the idea that she has a vast experience edge over Obama even though it’s always been unclear what exactly that edge consisted of. On top of that, the country’s most prominent liberal columnist has been pretty consistently attacking Obama for months now. Now, yes, I do think there’s been more BS thrown in her direction and there’s obviously been an “Obama swoon” factor that there’s no equal of on the other side (even Krugman, for example, writes only about his loathing of Obama and his supporters and never says anything good about Clinton) and that’s been a factor in the race. Still, on the central argument of her campaign, Clinton’s been treated reasonably well and the press has actually bent over backwards to keep her in the race under circumstances when almost anyone else would have been written off.

That’s a fairly compelling argument, at least to me.

I’m at a bit of a disadvantage because I avoid television news and don’t really have a reliable sense of how fairly or unfairly broadcast news has treated the candidates. Print media may be skewed in a way that offers an incomplete picture.

But as far as I can tell, Clinton has some very notable, and fairly aggressive, detractors in the traditional media. Chris Matthews, a mainstay of MSNBC’s political coverage, has made little effort to hide his disdain for Hillary Clinton. At the NYT, Paul Krugman has become Obama’s most aggressive and unyielding detractor, but Maureen Dowd and Frank Rich seem to write about their Clinton opposition so much, I’m hard pressed to think of what else they cover in their columns. My sense is that much of the press corps that travels with Clinton holds her in low regard personally, much the same way they did with Gore eight years ago.

But Matt’s point is nevertheless compelling — if Clinton had spent the month of February winning 11 out of 11 contests, building up a strong delegate lead, raising more money than Obama and McCain combined in February, enjoying sizable leads in the national polls, and beating McCain in hypothetical general-election match-ups, I suspect the pressure on Obama to drop out would have been so great, it likely would have forced him from the race already. And yet, those are the exact circumstances facing Clinton, and the media pressure on her is, I’d argue, still fairly mild, at least as it regards her staying in the race.

Plus, is it not fair to say that Obama is giving reporters an interesting story to cover? His success seemed unlikely just a few months ago, and yet, he’s now the frontrunner for the Democratic nomination. Of course that’s going to generate some positive news coverage — though it seems unlikely to continue once the general election phase of the campaign begins in earnest.

For what it’s worth, the NYT had an interesting item on the larger trend over the weekend.

On the bus ferrying a group of reporters to an appearance by Senator Barack Obama at Ohio State University on Wednesday, Lee Cowan, the NBC reporter assigned to the campaign, was asked the media question of the week: Had journalists like himself been going easier on Mr. Obama than his opponent for the Democratic nomination, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton?

“I don’t think that it’s kind treatment versus unkind treatment,” Mr. Cowan began, taking issue with the depiction of journalists fawning over Mr. Obama in a “Saturday Night Live” skit last Saturday, a characterization stoked nearly every day since by Mrs. Clinton and her aides.

And yet, Mr. Cowan then described several advantages that he saw Mr. Obama as having over his rival. “He hasn’t been around as long, so there isn’t as much to pick at,” Mr. Cowan said. “He plays everything very cool. He’s not as much of a lightning rod. His personality just doesn’t seem to draw that kind of coverage.”

“Even in the conversations we have as colleagues, there is a sense of trying especially hard not to drink the Kool-Aid,” Mr. Cowan added. “It’s so rapturous, everything around him. All these huge rallies.”

As the two Democratic candidates shuttled between Ohio and Texas this week before Tuesday’s potentially decisive nominating contests, questions over whether reporters were giving each candidate an equally fair shake were thrust into the center of the campaign itself. There were already indications that Mrs. Clinton and her surrogates were finding traction in casting the news media as a conflicted umpire, while also prompting some soul-searching among the reporters themselves.

Newsweek’s Jonathan Alter concluded, “People got it into their head that if you say something good about a candidate, you have to say something bad about him, and if you don’t, that’s not fair. What the Clinton partisans wanted was for us to create a phony balance that was at odds with what our eyes were telling us. That’s not the job of a journalist.”

It’s a bit of a tangent, but if reporters keep this adage in mind over the next eight months, I’ll be very impressed.

Eugene Robinson of the “Washington Post” actually made this point before Yglesias. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/21/AR2008022102159.html

  • Saturday Night Live did an opening parody of last Tuesday’s debate. Among other unfair treatment of the Hillary character, the Tim Russert character asked Hillary the name of some obscure foreign official with an unpronouncable name. When she answered correctly, Russert said “Senator Obama, same question.”

    For what it’s worth, the Saturday Night Live writers think that the media is unfair to Hillary.

    Jonathan Alter’s point about “phony balance” is excellent, but it applies much more widely. If the MSM talks about climate change, they think they need a global-warming denier for “balance.” It happens on all networks (except perhaps Fox) on all subjects.

  • Bias leaks from this argument. First, “altering the DNC rules” refers to the controversy over whether FL and MI votes count. If you are pro-Obama you say no, if pro-Clinton you say yes, but there is no “changing the rules” involved. There is a dispute over a messy situation created when primary dates were changed. Second, Clinton’s experience has been examined repeatedly, especially by those who dislike her. She has not received a pass on that from the media. Moreover, a continuing theme in the media has been whether Bill will be a drawback to her both in the campaign and in a presidency. Third, you seem to expect the media to buy whole cloth the idea that winning 11 little primaries (in the sense that these are either small states or red states not heavily Democratic constituencies) is a big deal. It isn’t. Obama has not won a single large state or a single Democratic stronghold. He is winning by recruiting Independents who are neither typical of the Democratic party nor its base in November. That isn’t a big victory — it is a specious victory. More should not be made of it, especially not to the extent of declaring him the DEMOCRATIC nominee before the convention has decided or all of the votes have been counted. Matt really really wants Obama to win. That doesn’t mean Obama is being treated unfairly.

  • Re post number 3, I think you are absolutely right, and that was Jon Stewart’s point when he went on CNN in 2004 and said “you are hurting us.” I think he was talking about the 24/7 cable press “having” to show “both sides” of the ridiculous smears of Kerry as if that was “balanced.”

    I think Gore in 2000 had a lot more to complain about when it came to unfair and hostile reporting, than anyone in 2008 has.

  • “11 little primaries”? Really, Mary, how can you stay standing when you’re spinning so ceaselessly? I hope tomorrow seals the deal just to put you (and us!) out of your misery.

  • Seems like the Clinton campaign is playing the ref. If they keep whinging on about unfair treatment, maybe the press will respond as if it were true. It’s not. I think it’s a cogent argument that if Obama had lost eleven primaries in a row then he would be a non-candidate.

  • “Bias leaks from this argument. First, “altering the DNC rules” refers to the controversy over whether FL and MI votes count. If you are pro-Obama you say no, if pro-Clinton you say yes, but there is no “changing the rules” involved. There is a dispute over a messy situation created when primary dates were changed.”

    If the Clinton team gets their wish, the rules by the DNC will change. There’s no discrepency with what Benen is saying.

    “Second, Clinton’s experience has been examined repeatedly, especially by those who dislike her. She has not received a pass on that from the media.”

    Her history has been explored, but there haven’t been too much media scrutiny of here favorite expression “35 years of experience.”

    “Moreover, a continuing theme in the media has been whether Bill will be a drawback to her both in the campaign and in a presidency.”

    No one has argued that he’d be a drawback in her presidency. The discussion has been a straight “horserace” argument of whether or not his comments have gone “off message.”

    “Third, you seem to expect the media to buy whole cloth the idea that winning 11 little primaries (in the sense that these are either small states or red states not heavily Democratic constituencies) is a big deal. It isn’t. Obama has not won a single large state or a single Democratic stronghold.”

    The states that will go Democratic in the fall anyway. New York, New Jersey and Michigan will go blue no matter who the Dem candidate is.

    “He is winning by recruiting Independents who are neither typical of the Democratic party nor its base in November. That isn’t a big victory — it is a specious victory.”

    It’s the EXACT victory he needs in November swing states. The base will support either Obama or Clinton. It’s the independents that have to be motivated.

  • Mary – Your arguments are an insult to all of our intelligences and you really need to stop embarrassing yourself like this. One of the big reasons why Hillary is losing support is because of this horrible spin coming from her side. It’s one thing to think whining about the media will win you votes, but your insistence on negating Obama’s victories are just crazy talk.

    One of the most obvious is the “large state” thing. Look, out of the top ten states, only five have had valid primaries (I know you want to include FL and MI, but we can’t). Obama won three of these five, including Illinois which is the fifth biggest state and solidly blue (unless we don’t think Kerry’s 11 point win is solid). Hillary won two top ten primaries. And there are three more big primaries to go, including two tomorrow. And even still, we need small states too. Plus, winning NY and CA is fairly meaningless, as there is no chance any Dem would lose those.

    Look, I know you don’t want to admit it, but winning independents is what we need for this election. The Democratic base is solidly behind either candidate. The secret is winning the other people, which Obama seems to have an edge on. But in any case, trying to negate Obama’s success isn’t winning you any supporters and just makes you look silly. It’s possible Hillary can still pull this out, but obviously false spin isn’t going to be how it’s done.

  • Mary,

    Thanks for your completely objective take on this. I see clearly now how extremely biased the media has been. And coming from the wee little state of WI, I now understand why my vote shouldn’t matter. Or indeed, why any of the people who voted for Obama should matter. We just aren’t “true” democrats… for as you have clearly explained, they only exist in big “blue” states. We should just end this farce now and nominate Hillary, for only she has “true” democratic support. As for the rest of us… well, we just should have no say in who we would like to vote for in the Fall. Perhaps if you keep spreading your message, more Obama supporters will see the error of their ways and quit trying to be part of the process.

    God bless you Mary. Good Luck!

  • The media has made no serious effort to examine Obama’s record, while every utterance of Clinton is dissected six ways from Sunday. A good example is NAFTA–we heard how Clinton had changed her position, but not much about how Obama had changed his. Another example is Obama’s unchallenged assertion that he is for the little guy and takes no corporate money. I understand the workers at Maytag disagree, as do the citizens affected by waste by nuclear energy company Exelon, as to the people affected by the slumlord buildings of Rezko. Speaking of Rezko, before Sunday’s NY Times article, no one mentioned that Obama’s description of five hours of legal work significantly understated his relationship with the man. Nor is there any discussion of his dissembling on the credit card bill with the 30% interest cap. In fact there has been little to no examination of his legislative record at all. And I could go on an on.

    Also, if you do not watch the cable channels you have no idea of the intensity of the Hillary hate from Matthews, Russert, Olberman, Tucker Carlson, Carl Bernstein, Gloria Berger . . . and so many others whose names I can’t recall.

  • Two guys score a 62 in a golf match. One is pissed and the other is happy. The first played well all day and then hit bogies on the last thee holes. The other played badly all day and got birdies on the last three holes.

    Obama isn’t far enough ahead to force Hillary out of the race. But he did well on the last 11 holes.

  • Clinton has too much history that, fairly or not (I’d say definitely not) has been portrayed as negative. It’s more of a holdover from the attacks on her husband in the 90s than anything she’s done. I don’t think many can deny that.

    The things I see the media go after Obama on usually revolve around his speeches being light on substance, and the claim no one knows what his positions are on the issues.

    The problem with the first line of attack is that Gore was a wonk who often got into specifics. The media hated it and blasted the guy for it. Kerry got the same treatment to an extent. I see no problem at all with having broad themes in stump speeches. Sorry, but most people aren’t interested in policy analysis at these events. I’d love it, most of us would, but most folks don’t.

    On the second point, that’s a red herring as well since all one has to do is go to the guy’s site and click on “Issues.” If one does that, one can find enough specifics to keep one busy for a while. Of course, taking the time to do so is something most won’t or haven’t done (including a rather disturbing number of his supporters), but the fact is that there are specifics. So that one doesn’t fly, either.

    As far as Mary’s comment @ 4, I’ve read and heard that a lot (that all those primaries he’s won don’t count). Um … if they counted the votes, they count. And I’ll bet $100 that Clinton supporters would think they mattered a great deal if she had won.

    Just a hunch …

  • Thanks for your completely objective take on this. I see clearly now how extremely biased the media has been. And coming from the wee little state of WI, I now understand why my vote shouldn’t matter. Or indeed, why any of the people who voted for Obama should matter. We just aren’t “true” democrats… for as you have clearly explained, they only exist in big “blue” states. We should just end this farce now and nominate Hillary, for only she has “true” democratic support. As for the rest of us… well, we just should have no say in who we would like to vote for in the Fall. Perhaps if you keep spreading your message, more Obama supporters will see the error of their ways and quit trying to be part of the process.

    And the Clinton/Obama bickering begins!

    Dear lord … this primary season can NOT get over fast enough.

  • I guess I would like to point out that even in losing 11 straight, Clinton still picked up delegates, and Obama basically erased the lead Clinton had. I don’t understand the argument that the press is keeping Clinton in it since she has almost the same number of delegates as Obama. The sad part is the continuous supply of stories early in the campaign that Clinton had it wrapped up and then that she was washed up based on Iowa, then that she was back in it after New Hampshire, then how it was close after Super Tuesday, then how she was done subsequent to Super Tuesday, then how she was toast, then how Obama isn’t gonna lock it up if they split Texas/Ohio. Guess what, all the chattering suggests that the entire blogosphere has the memory of a peanut.

  • I don’t see how anyone can read the blogs, like TPM, HuffPost, etc., and not come away that those guys have become wrapped up in the very things they used to rail against — petty nonsense about HRC’s tears, photos, ads, tea leaves reading into her every utterance, everything but substantive attention to the few policy differences that exist in those candidates.

  • Clinton hate is as ingrained in the current generation of journalists as Watergate was at one point. Everyone wants a Drudge link as much as taking down a President.

    Obama’s appeal, to me, is that he’s the only Democrat whom the media is allowed to like, and therefore maybe won’t be swiftboated. What is disturbing here is that it’s still the Clinton rules of journalism, which became the Democratic Rules of journalism. You see, they have to take Obama down with a bunch of made up crap to show they aren’t biased. Will they ever take McCain down with fabricated fluff? Will they ever feel a need to show they can get tough on him? Not according to the Democratic Rules. According to the Dem Rules, in the Generals the MSM will constantly naval gaze about how much good press they’ve given Obama, and whether they’re too liberal covering McCain.

    When the media spends months analyzing every detail of an issue about McCain’s drug running, womanizing and collusion with his captors that is totally bogus, and everyone in DC knows it’s bogus yet runs with it anyway — then there will be some balance in the media.

    So yes, they hate Clinton. Yes, they make up stuff about her. Yes, they’ll smear her without a fraction of the evidence that didn’t reach snuff regarding the independent accounts of McCain’s own aides. That doesn’t mean we want them to start making up stuff about Obama. We want them to stop making up stuff at all, and if they can’t, to start reporting stuff McCain’s actually guilty of.

  • Hillary’s ‘experience’ might just be knowing the K street personnel on a first name basis. She IS the business as usual candidate. What does K street think? Does K street want change. I think not.

  • I don’t understand the argument that the press is keeping Clinton in it since she has almost the same number of delegates as Obama.

    I guess it depends on where you’re looking, but according to Yahoo, Obama has 150 more delegates than Hillary. That might not seem like alot, but if they split Texas and Hillary won every delegate in Ohio, she still wouldn’t catch up with him. The numbers might look close, but they’re running out of runway and he has about 15% more delegates than she does and she doesn’t have much of a chance of picking up that ground.

    And you really shouldn’t accuse the “entire blogosphere” of anything. It makes you look silly.

  • Dale @ 12. Important correction to your golf game. They aren’t tied. CNN reports 1378 delegates for Obama vs Clinton’s 1269. So your 62-62 is more like 57-62 or 62-68.

  • MSM developes a narrative for each candidate. Gore invented the internet. Hillary is untrustworthy. McCain is an American hero. Developing an accepted narrative means that “journalists” don’t have to ask who/what/when/where since they already know the answers and can write their copy after four or five martinis.

    I too will be very happy when the primaries are over. At this point I am not proud of being a Democrat.

  • Someone who calls himself Doctor Hussein Biobrain calls someone else silly? Hmmm.

  • Actually- I think the underlying premise is absolutely wrong. Due to the proportional nature of the Democratic primaries, if the results had been the reverse, the story would still be that the candidates are “essentially tied” which is what the stories are now. The MSM wouldn’t have forced Obama out of the primaries because they like the horse race and like reporting it. Just like they do now. The one diffeerence is that Obama would be characterized as the suprisingly strong challenger not the presumptive leader.
    The only potential reason coverage would be different if it was clear that Hillary had won enough primaries and pledged delegates and clinched the nomination without the need of superdelegates.
    But that isn’t true of Obama. Indeed, it can’t win enough delegates. The simple fact is because the candidates are basically tied, neither one can clinch the nomination as long as the other remains in the races. So the question becomes which one will end up with more delegates after the primaries are held and the only way you find that out is to actually let people vote.

    So the claim that the stroy would change is just horseshit. Until a candidate can clinch the nomination on his own- like McCain did- the MSM doesn’t try (and shouldn’t try) to force anyone out and correctly treats the story like the actual contest that it is.

    The claim otherwise is pure Obama spin that really doesn’t survive cold blooded analysis. The easiest way to see this is to look at how the MSM has reported prior nomination battle that had more than onestrong candidate and which were basically tied in votes. look at 1968, 1988, 1992 etc. Treatment of all viable candidates as viable was continued until the nomination was in fact clinched.

    By asking that he be granted the nomination before he won it and before he shows he can win it- it is Obama who is seeking special privileges.

  • …Maybe it’s that saying something nasty about the Clinton Campaign gets printed and saying something positive about Obama gets printed, so there’s no emphasis to go negative – yet.

    Yeah, there’s lots of pressure on Clinton to bow out – but why? They’re within a hundred delegates. They were within a hundred delegates after Super Tuesday – the other way. Why wasn’t that a quit time for Obama then?

    Let the people vote.

  • Guys, Russert and Matthews aside, the press has been giving Clinton two weeks of non-stop, fawning coverage with virtually no focus on Obama. Just look around. Halperin and Time have been promoting Clinton like crazy, CNN ran a front page headline today that read “Clinton Relaxes, Enjoys Beer,” WaPo is doing a double whammy of Rezko and “Clinton is a fighter,” WaPo has also frontpaged what is effectively a re-reading of a Mark Penn press release (no joke), while NYTimes has Krugman doing another hit piece. All the while, we get piles of smiling Hillary photos with a few angry Obamas scattered in for good measure.

    Are there anti-Clinton pundits? Yes, but the fact of the matter is that the media is chasing the giant piggybank of a prolonged primary battle and have been working overtime to resuscitate Clinton’s campaign. How much free airtime did they give the “red phone” ad over the weekend? A few million dollars, at least. Of course, all the while the question of Clinton’s actual foreign policy credentials is never EVER raised, lest Wolfson and Penn go into another bout of whining about Russert didn’t race-bait enough at the debate.

  • I want to take a different tack here. CB quotes Cowan talking about the “huge rallies” for Obama. The “kool-aid” term is oft used. And now “rapture”. The phenomenon itself has been a growing reality for quite some time.
    I find it interesting that even in the debates here between the two Dem camps, people so often seem to have the notion that Obama or his campaign have “engineered” this phenomenon. I don’t see nearly enough of the point of view that the phenomenon represents a very powerful convergence of desire in our society for a change, independent of the Obama campaign.
    I know that this is an Obama campaign talking point, but in some sense, that’s beside tha point.
    I think the media ought to start paying attention to this: To at least some degree, Obama is a surfer that has caught a really big wave. The wave ain’t going away. And this is an interesting moment in history. So far Obama has proven himself to be the top dog wave-master.

  • The delegate lead wasn’t particularly big after Super Tuesday, but as the number of available delegates decreases, the lead does become more significant. Go over to the delegate counter that CNN has put up. Even if does incredibly well among the remaining pledged delegates, Clinton needs the remaining superdelegates to go her way at about a 2-to-1 ratio.

  • I Clinton were to pull off a victory in popular vote in TX and win OH and RI by 10% or more tomorrow she has now reason whatsoever to withdraw. That being said if the split the rest of the delegates equally then it will go to the convention. As the RULES of the DNC say. Howard Dean could settle this simply by having revotes in FL and MI.

    One other thing if Obama makes another goof like the reported memo on NAFTA its a whole new ball game. I think that will hurt him tomorrow in OH. And no I am not saying its true.

  • By asking that he be granted the nomination before he won it and before he shows he can win it- it is Obama who is seeking special privileges.

    What are you talking about? How has he sought special privileges?

    Secondly, I agree with CB that the media would have hounded Obama out by now. Just like they hounded Gore out after he won in 2000. They couldn’t kill that huge news story quickly enough. Similarly, some of them were saying Hillary should have dropped out after Iowa. These people are like dogs and always go with whatever the pack says.

    From my perspective, the whole coverage of this race was that Hillary was the presumptive winner with more experience and political savvy, but that they really didn’t like her much. And as we’ve seen so far, why it was assumed she was some political powerhouse is beyond me, as she’s never done anything to prove it. But they’ve always given her the benefit of the doubt that she was the real deal, while Obama was the guy who had to prove himself. And that’s the basis for the idea that they are giving her the benefit of the doubt now, while they would have written Obama off. She’s given coverage as if she’s the incumbent, while he has to prove himself again and again.

    And you can disagree with that if you want, but the point is debatable. Where the heck do you come off calling this “horseshit” and “pure Obama spin”. I can understand why you might disagree, but this debate is a matter of opinion, not fact. And if you re-read CB’s post, you’ll see that’s how he presented it; as a theory worth considering, and I agree with that.

  • Klaus — do you subscribe to Time? This week’s cover story is about how the best Presidents tend to be the least experienced — basically it takes on the major line of attack on Obama and disarms it.

    I voted for Obama here in TX, but seeing everything through you narrow lenses re: what helps Obama and hurts Hillary will come back to hurt our nominee (probably Obama) in the Generals.

    The Clintons are the symbol of the media double-standard.

  • Dr. Hussein leaves out NJ (among big states) and thinks that winning your home state is a triumph.

    Obama didn’t goof on the NAFTA memo. He revealed himself. This is not new politics. It is the same old dealing and lying. Makes you wonder what else he is lying about — or it should.

    When a Clinton supporter states an opinion or their view of things, they are “spinning”. This is a great example of the way Obama supporters smear others. Obama people are at least 50% responsible for the animosity in this race and in the blog comments. There is no respect coming from that side — toward Hillary or anyone else, which is why they are not cordial behind the scenes. Obama may appear likeable on camera, but someone who can’t get along with as nice a person as Hillary is reputed to be in person, must be a jerk (no matter how smart and funny his wife is).

    You assume that the base will follow Obama wherever he goes, but I believe the support for Clinton is showing that substantial numbers of base voters do not wish to do that. I will NEVER vote for Obama, nor will I vote for McCain. I will either sit this one out or vote for Nader. Obama cannot take for granted the base and he cannot spit on the aspirations of women, gays, and other base constituents and think they will all rally around him in Nov. Some of us have too much self-respect to be treated that way. People in this newsgroup are just making things worse.

  • I am voting for Hillary Clinton for the following reasons:
    She is smart, capable and proven. She will be a steady and courageous leader. She has the political experience to make change in Washington. She has proven her ability to reach consensus with republicans. She has faced public and personal defeats in her life and has proven herself resilient and responsive to those trials. I know she is ready to be the president of the United States of America.

    I believe Barack Obama’s supporters vote for him for the following reasons:
    He inspires certain feelings in them that invoke such admirable emotions as hope, faith, inspiration, etc. They want to believe that those feelings will transfer into reality.

    I am a realist and a scientist. I need proof. Hillary Clinton has proven herself a resilient leader leader. Barack Obama has not.

    I think that Mr. Obama’s “handlers” pushed him (willingly) into a campaign for a job for which he is not prepared. I can imagine the long meetings about his readiness and experience. I can imagine them telling him … “if you wait 4 or 8 years you will have 100’s of Senate votes you have to defend … some of them controversial.” “Now you are an empty slate and there is nothing much to criticize”. “Now is the time”.

    This is not the person I want leading our country. An untried, unproven entity who has an easy time criticizing a vote that Hillary Clinton and 28 of the 49 democratic Senators made in 2002. A vote he cannot be criticized on because he was not and has not been put in a position where he had to make a critical vote.

    After one of the recent debates, one of the female news commentators said in a disparaging way, “she just comes off as the smart girl in the class”. God forbid we elect a “smart girl” to lead this country. It’s much better to go with the popular boy following the ignorant boy who sits in the White House now. Popular boys usually get the smart girls to do their work for them anyway. Please, let the smart girl in the room – lead.

    Come on Tuesday’s voters, give us the right person.

    And Oh, I just had to do this:

    Obama vs. McCain – MaCain by 7
    Clinton vs. McCain – McCain by 3
    Obama vs. Clinton – Obama by 6
    The democrats want to lose badly (just paraphraseing one of the Obama lovers from a couple of weeks ago)

  • Why do Clinton people continue to insist Obama had any agency in the memo story? Also, even if we assume agency, the story itself is not that interesting. Basically, some advisor said Obama wasn’t a protectionist and wouldn’t scrap trade deals altogether…. alright, that’s his platform, what’s the big deal?

    And Marian, I’m sure you think you’re brilliant for your choice of candidate, as most people do. However, a realist looking for hard, empirical evidence would have gone with Biden, Dodd, or Richardson (who was, for the record, the initial recipient of my support).

    I thought proven technical skills were important too, which is why I initially supported a candidate who had them. When the race was whittled down to a trio of candidates with negligible experience, I went with the one who was most electable and politically savvy.

    So, in short, your claim is not really well supported and more than a little egotistical.

  • And your last full paragraph simply reveals that you’re voting on emotion (lingering rage from high school, really?) as opposed to the lofty ideals you initially claim.

  • I don’t see nearly enough of the point of view that the phenomenon represents a very powerful convergence of desire in our society for a change, independent of the Obama campaign.

    I don’t know, one of the main points of the Obama message is that this is about empowerment. He’s not claiming to be some guru who created this thing, but rather that he’s the right person at the right time. And that this isn’t about Obama fixing the world for us, but rather that he’s positioned to best allow us to help ourselves. I think he knows he’s someone surfing the wave. The telling thing is that he’s the one who saw it and knew what to do with it.

    I should mention that for the first time in my life, I went door-to-door yesterday for Obama reminding people to caucus here in Texas. And I’m volunteering tomorrow to help at the caucus. I’ve supported every Democratic nominee since I became a Democrat in the early 90’s, but this is the first time I’ve volunteered. I did it for Obama.

  • Dr. Hussein leaves out NJ (among big states) and thinks that winning your home state is a triumph.

    Uh, I left out NJ as I limited this to the top ten states by population. NJ is number eleven. Sorry for not going out of my way to make this the top eleven, but maybe I could have rounded to an even number and include VA at number twelve. Your point was that Hillary took all the big states, but the reality is that Hilly only took two big states out of the top ten. How can NJ be considered by you to be a “big state” when Obama took three states that are bigger, but which you dismissed as “small”?

    As for your theory that Obama must be a jerk because Hillary is reportedly a nice person is utterly insane. I would never suggest that Hillary is a bitch just because she couldn’t get along with Barack; nor do I believe that to be so. You should rethink your hatred of Barack as much as you’d like Hillary haters to rethink their position. Hate isn’t cool.

  • Marian @34 – Perhaps if Hillary’s supporters could give reasons for supporting her that didn’t involve insulting large portions of the Democratic Party, she’d be a lot better off. Sure, some Obama people insult Hillary and/or Hillary supporters, but your entire argument inherently insults ALL Obama people as well as Obama. I fail to see how that’s a smart argument.

  • I am voting for Obama for the following reasons:

    He is smart, capable and proven. He was a editor of the Harvard Law review, taught Constitutional Law, community leader, State Senator and U.S. Senator. He has held elected office at more levels of government for a longer period of time than his opponent.

    He has the skill and ability to make change in Washington, not with a 50+1 majority, but with a working majority that includes independents and some Republicans. He has demonstrated this through, for example bipartisan landmark ethics legislation and bipartisan legislation tooled to help secure loose nukes in the former Soviet states (one of the most important national security/terror threats we face). In addition, he supported the treaty to ban cluster bombs which are notorious for killing innocent civilians (his opponent opposed the ban). And of course, in contrast with his opponent, he opposed the Iraq war when opposing it was unpopular as well as opposed the Kyl-Lieberman amendment.

    I believe Barack Obama’s supporters vote for him for the following reasons:
    She’s a woman. Her last name is Clinton. She’s married to Bill Clinton. She takes credit for Bill Clinton’s accomplishments (except when she’s in Ohio where she claims to have opposed NAFTA when it was being debated). Of course, we can’t see what she approved or disapproved of when she was first lady because she refuses to release those records.

    Baraka Obama is battle-tested and vetted, evidenced by the fact that he has won the most votes, the most states, the most delegates, and persuaded the most donors to contribute to his campaign while running against a better known candidate with proximity to a popular former president. His opponent is not battle tested or vetted, since she refused to release her tax returns, white house records and list of contributors to her husband’s library/foundation (who might want to influence the next president).

    Hillary is not the person I want leading our country. An untried, unproven entity who has an easy time criticizing a person for inspiring others to become active citizens who take responsibility for their government.

    Hillary Clinton is not smart. It was not smart to vote for Iraq, against the cluster-bomb treaty, for Kyl-Lieberman and for that awful bankruptcy bill. It wasn’t smart to support NAFTA without adequate labor and environmental standards. It was not smart to run a Bush-like presidential campaign by choosing loyalty over competence. And most of all, it’s not smart to continue tearing down our next presidential nominee, Barak Obama, when she knows that she can’t get enough elected delegates to win the nomination outright.

    Come on Tuesday’s voters, give us the right person.

    And oh, I just had to do this:

    Obama vs. McCain – Obama by 7
    Clinton vs. McCain – McCain by 3
    Obama vs. Clinton – Obama by 6

  • Michelle @41, good job. Not only did you give a good explanation of Obama’s appeal, but you did so without having to insult huge portions of the Democratic Party. The only thing I’d quibble with is that Obama supporters support him because he’s not Hillary. There’s certainly a sizeable contingent of those, but many of us aren’t anti-Hillary. Other than that, you did great.

    Not that any of this makes a difference, as the anti-Obama people have been told this stuff repeatedly and they still insist we’re idiot cult members, but it needs to be said all the same.

  • I said top 10 democratic states, not top 10 in overall population. Virginia is a swing state formerly a red state, not a democrat or blue state. As I pointed out, Obama has been winning in the states with smaller democrat constituencies by recruiting large numbers of independents (who may or may not vote democrat in the Fall).

    Obama supporters are so proud of having the candidate that is attracting support from new voters, enthusiastic youth and more highly educated voters. I just came across the following statement in Gellately’s history (Lenin, Stalin and Hitler: The age of social catastrophe, Knopf 2007): “Soviet [Lenin and Stalinist] and Nazi regimes both gained followers from among the idealists, the young, and the better educated. Such people virtually worshipped their leaders, and even the ice-cold rationalists among them could recall the ground seeming to tremble beneath their feet when they came into the presence of these men.” (p. 17).

    Obviously, I am not suggesting that Obama has anything in common with these dictators, but I am saying that having an enthusiastic following of the young, idealistic and highly educated who worship a candidate is not necessarily a measure of the virtues of that candidate. The young, idealistic and highly educated have been led horribly astray before and passion of the follower is not an indicator of a candidate’s merit.

    I get very tired of the disparaging references to Clinton’s supporters as middle-aged women, as if there were something wrong with being middle-aged or female. Interestingly, Gellately refers to the original Russian revolution (not the October Bolshevik revolution) as being sparked by mass protests demanding women’s rights, in which soldiers fired into the crowd provoking an uprising that led to the resignation of the Tsar. Women and their opinions are obviously historically important (now that this is March and Women’s History month) even if such details are generally left out of descriptions of world events.

    Obama and Clinton are both smart. Clinton has to show it because if she downplays her intelligence she will be assumed to be stupid. Obama has the same problem, which is why he makes such a play for the youth vote, the hip vote. This is an anti-intellectual society in which being smart is a liability. Obama can appear smart without anyone considering him too smart. Hillary has no choice but to be smart as smart as possible or she will lose. The credibility of her claim to experience rests on whether she was paying enough attention during those years and her wonkishness is the proof that she knows her stuff. Those who consider her too smart should remember what it is like to have a president who cannot speak English, didn’t know Musharraf’s name during the primary, and had to be told there were Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq.

    Obama’s embarrassment over Canada and the Nafta memo suggests he doesn’t know his stuff and will be a neophyte on the international stage, regardless of what actually happened in that incident. He got played (not by Hillary but by Canadians with their own interests). You have to smart AND experienced to avoid getting played that way.

    That’s why I’m voting for Clinton not Obama.

  • She is smart, capable and proven. She will be a steady and courageous leader. She has the political experience to make change in Washington. She has proven her ability to reach consensus with republicans.

    Generalizations all. No specifics, no proof. You’re just buying into her campaign spin. I hope you’re a better scientist than you are a judge of presidential material.

    He inspires certain feelings in them that invoke such admirable emotions as hope, faith, inspiration, etc.

    That, and his stands on the issues. I’m not a scientist, but I do know how to go to Obama’s website and read his take on the issues. As do millions of other Obama supporters. Don’t take it on faith that they haven’t done so. That’s not what scientists do.

  • I’ll give Clinton this: I believe gender discrimination has been given less attention than racial discrimination and is easier to get away with without being called out for it. For that reason, I was willing to give her a fresh look and a clean slate when she announced she was running.

    By last November, she’d convinced me that I wanted no part of her arrogant, top-down philosophy of government, her triangulating, her phony claims of experience and sense of entitlement. It had nothing to do with her being a woman. Since January, the way she’s conducted her campaign has removed any doubt I may have had. Now, it appears she’s willing to burn the village if she can’t rule it. Male or female, this kind of behavior is disgusting and independent of any biases the media may have.

  • Mary (43) Give me a break! Trade with Canada is not the problem – neither for Obama nor for Clinton. A Canadian associate to the consul in Chicago wrote a memo that said Canadians should not be concerned about threats by Obama to change Nafta (this after a conversation between an Obama advisor and the consul). By the way, the consul also sought and received similar assurances from Clinton advisors. But Clinton and her insincere allies imply Obama was talking about the cheap labor issues we have with Mexico.

  • Ken, the book I quoted is not Jonah Goldberg’s but a mainstream history of the dictatorships. I explicitly stated that I was not equating Obama with any of the dictators but rather pointing out that even idealistic youth, new voters and the highly educated can be misled by their hopes for change. It matters who you elect and a simple but heartfelt desire for change is not enough these days.

    I don’t feel comfortable throwing around labels the way you apparently do, but that is the point of the rest of my post, about labeling certain types of voters as unimportant (e.g. older women) while considering young hip voters to be more desirable or labeling someone too smart, as if being smart were something to be ashamed of, especially when your name is Hillary.

  • If Obama can’t keep from embarrassing himself in diplomatic dealings with Canada, how will he do with the bigger sharks in the ocean? He is the one with egg on his face, not Clinton. He tried to have it both ways by saying one thing to Canadians and another to voters in Ohio, and they made public his double-dealing. What Hillary said or did is not the issue. Obama is on the hot seat because he was naive and overly trusting in an international backchannel negotiation that turned around and bit him. He is a babe in the woods when it comes to such stuff. We can elect him and watch while he wastes the first few years learning the ropes or we can elect something who already knows how to protect herself in such situations.

  • To suggest, Mary, that hope for change is misleading is to embrace the status quo—which is absolutely the last thing that this country needs.

  • Mary @ 49. I know this is inconvenient, but the Canadians deny there’s any issue. Since you’re so hellbent on pinning something on Obama, may I suggest you dig up something of substance? In your desperation you’re not only embarrassing yourself but you’re sounding a lot like the Republicans we’re supposed to be running against — much like your preferred candidate has done of late. Attack the messenger, deny empirical evidence, blame the press, never admit a mistake and just make shit up.

    I believe it was Bill Clinton who stood beside John Kerry and said that, given a choice between someone who plays the fear card and someone who offers who hope, you’ve got to go with hope. Or was that before 9/11 changed everything? Or was it before Obama had the audacity to encourage people to hope when the Clinton’s thought they had cornered the market and could dole it out as convenient?

  • I read this the other day and it was eye opening to me as to why young people are interested in Obama. This is from The Atlantic (link below):

    A twenty-one year-old reader writes:

    There’s one salient reason why people of my age are supporting Obama and that’s because we feel that Obama will finally show us what it means to be proud of our president.

    I read more than I should about politics and US history and am always confused as to how Americans can love their president so. Intellectually I understand why Americans love(d) Lincoln and the Roosevelts but I never felt why they did.

    Andrew, people my age are too young to remember Bill Clinton. All we have is George W. Bush. The office of the President to us is a mockery. We don’t link President Bush to concepts such as leader, we link it to ignorance and idiocy. Most people my age have never felt proud of our President. We grew up on the Daily Show, we only know how to make fun of him and mock him.

    I attended an Obama rally a few days ago and was amazed at how filled up with emotion I was. Halfway through his speech, other 21 year olds just like that filled the Hall were screaming their heads off, waving banners, and grinning. Everyone was giddy, hell even I was giddy. I was smiling and chanting along to “Yes We Can.” I didn’t know what that feeling was because I had never felt it. But then I realized it. It was pride. I was proud of Obama.

    I know you’ve felt proud of Reagan and others have felt proud of Bill Clinton. I can’t wait to actually know what it feels like to be proud of my President and not embarrassed by him. That’s why at least my generation is turning out in droves to make Obama president. We’ve finally got a taste of what it feels like to be proud of our President and we’re not giving that feeling up.

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/02/pride.html

    And before Bush, there was 24/7 coverage of blow jobs.

    Next time someone asks why people like Obama, share this.

  • Mary, you have no sense of humor whatsoever. Stop taking yourself so seriously. You seem quite angry for some reason.

    That makes you, of course, a perfect fit for Hillary’s “No We Can’t” campaign. It’s too bad, too. Hubert Humphrey said during the 1968 campaign: “You can’t vote your fears; you have to vote your hopes. You can’t vote your anger; you have to vote your hopes.” He lost, because people didn’t heed that advice, and voted for Nixon’s message of fear and anger instead.

    Look where it got us.

    So forgive me if I’d rather be hopeful than fearful. Or angry.

  • Why should a president be someone we expect to love? It is great that young people are looking beyond their youthful narcissism to politics, but attaching themselves to a political figure as they might to a rock star or a sports hero is not the way to vote responsibly. Maybe the voting age needs to be raised back to 21 when young people have grown up enough to take politics seriously.

    The point of the 24/7 coverage of blow jobs was to discredit Clinton’s many achievements in the minds of the unthinking. Now you tell me that blowjobs are the reason why youth prefer Obama? I’m so glad I’m not a kid and I prefer that my future not be determined by people who think blowjobs have anything whatsoever to do with governing a nation.

    I am having trouble understanding why today’s youth don’t love Bush when he never had any of his blowjobs covered by the media 24/7. Answering that question might be good for them — refocus them onto the things that matter and teach them something about how to identify substance.

  • There’s a difference between love and respect which I think you’re missing.

    Of course, had that same opinion been written for Clinton and not Obama, you would have gotten it…which is sad.

  • Virginia is a swing state formerly a red state, not a democrat or blue state. -Mary

    I think you mean Democratic. You wouldn’t want to look like a right-wing troll.

  • I’d been torn between the two for a while now, but this comment thread has helped me make up my mind about who I’m voting for tomorrow in the Texas primary.

    Mary, your comments have been particularly effective. If you’re a Clinton backer, I’m voting for Obama.

  • Is the press biased? They certainly were/are. Only now is any kind of scrutiny beginning. Any earlier scrutiny would have messed with the story line that played so well.
    It is so interesting that many of the main stream media types swooning over Obama, are the same folks who got all caught up in the run up to the war. It is the story line that they feel is important, not the substance of the story. What will be the next cause celeb?
    If you really want an insightful look at the difference between what could have been reported and what wasn’t, read the article linked below.

    http://beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=5413#more

  • It is great that young people are looking beyond their youthful narcissism to politics, but attaching themselves to a political figure as they might to a rock star or a sports hero is not the way to vote responsibly.

    That’s right, Mary. We’re all idiots.

  • Damn, I take the day off, and I miss a classic day of Mary Meltdowns. They’re simultaneously hilarious and sad, like the suicide of a clown.

    There’s so much insanity here to discuss, but I particularly like this moment:

    I will NEVER vote for Obama, nor will I vote for McCain. I will either sit this one out or vote for Nader. Obama cannot take for granted the base and he cannot spit on the aspirations of women, gays, and other base constituents and think they will all rally around him in Nov. Some of us have too much self-respect to be treated that way.

    I’ll leave aside the laughably bizarre and deeply insane assertion that Obama is somehow spitting on the aspirations of women and gays (?!?), and just highlight the odd point that Mary’s willing to sit on the sidelines rather than support the Democratic Party that will do the most to advance the aspirations of those very same groups.

    Yes, Mary, women and gays and other “base [sic] constituencies” will be so, so, so much better off if you throw your vote away in a petulant act of self-centered spite. Brilliant.

    People in this newsgroup are just making things worse.

  • The press treatment of Senator Clinton may or may not be fair, but it will continue to be critical. Whining about that won’t change anything. The Clinton machine has taken advantage of it’s strengths, but press relations is one of the weaknesses of the Clinton machine. One reason I voted for Obama is that with him, we get a fresh start. Let’s face it, much of the press treatment of Senator Clinton is baked in the cake at this point.

  • mary says, I will NEVER vote for Obama, nor will I vote for McCain. I will either sit this one out or vote for Nader.

    I’ll take hope over bitterness any day…you sound like a child having a tantrum…can’t have your way, so you’ll take your ball home and wont play anymore…don’t blame Obama if there is a repig in the whitehouse next year.

    I voted for Obama, but would have no problem voting for Hillary if she is the nominee (legitimate or not). My first concern is to not see a threepeat.

    P.S. When you use Hitler/Stalin youth groups as an example, i.e. hope = bad; most people are going to take that as an insult.

  • The point of the 24/7 coverage of blow jobs was to discredit Clinton’s many achievements in the minds of the unthinking. Now you tell me that blowjobs are the reason why youth prefer Obama? I’m so glad I’m not a kid and I prefer that my future not be determined by people who think blowjobs have anything whatsoever to do with governing a nation.

    I am having trouble understanding why today’s youth don’t love Bush when he never had any of his blowjobs covered by the media 24/7. Answering that question might be good for them — refocus them onto the things that matter and teach them something about how to identify substance.

    This post actually pissed me off. A lot. First of all, what are you even talking about with the blowjobs? It makes no sense. I tried to understand it but it was really convoluted.

    And secondly, perhaps today’s youth doesn’t love Bush because they aren’t idiots and don’t only get their news from the media that covered Clinton’s blowjobs so incessantly. Because maybe they are smart enough to know that that media is often unreliable. You contradict yourself so overtly that I can’t believe you didn’t catch it. I’m gathering that your “question” was why don’t the younger kids love Bush? (Through the sarcasm, that’s what I got.) Um, because they’re not stupid. Clearly.

    Mary, just stop. You’re insulting everyone. You need to get a grip and cut back on the gross generalizations.

    You’re also playing into every single Clinton voter stereotype and giving Clinton herself a bad name. The idea that her supporters are all angry, vehement women perpetuates some of the sexism surrounding her. You’re making it worse.

  • Clinton’s been treated reasonably well and the press has actually bent over backwards to keep her in the race under circumstances when almost anyone else would have been written off.

    That’s mighty kind of them. I guess she’s not allowed to decide for herself, so thank God for the media.

  • It is great that young people are looking beyond their youthful narcissism to politics, but attaching themselves to a political figure as they might to a rock star or a sports hero is not the way to vote responsibly. Maybe the voting age needs to be raised back to 21 when young people have grown up enough to take politics seriously.

    And just how old are you, might I ask?

    If the nonsense and insults you’ve posted here are any indication, I’d have to imagine you’re somewhere around 10 or 11.

    Grow up, indeed.

  • [Not having read most of the comments]

    1) I used to work for a Chicago alderman. Time spent in Springfield is dubious experience at best and only reinforces Obama’s claim that ‘all politicians have dirty hands.’ [try googling poker, committee meetings, lobbyists]; Contrast this with even passing experience in the White House and abroad. Sh*t, if I’d been in the WH that long, I would be crowing my expertise too.

    2) The “eleven contests in a row” are ones in which the delegates are allocated PROPORTIONALY, so winner and loser may not mean much, or, as Mary points out, if Obama wins BIG in the states where the Repubs will take November (where it is not proportional), what good is it?

    3) Dr. Biobrain must be a paid poster. He’s everywhere.

  • The “eleven contests in a row” are ones in which the delegates are allocated PROPORTIONALY

    As are all the other ones. What’s your point?

    If Hillary wins Ohio 51-49, I’m sure you’ll be screaming this fact in ALL CAPS as well, right?

  • Dear Mary, good god take a powder child. You’re way too caught up in this. Maybe you should back away from the cruel blogosphere and work for a local candidate instead? The local luncheons you’ll attend are excellent for really “knowing” what the rest of us are thinking. I highly recommend it.

    song for Mary

  • Actually, msmudd, I think most of the posters here are way too caught up in this. I started out liking all the candidates, preferring some marginally over others, and now I don’t even want to call myself a Democrat any more. Maybe it’s bickering fatigue???

  • You know, there are two comments on this very thread that are quite the stark comparison between the two camps. They are sentiments I’ve also seen all over the Intratubes, as well as in polls.

    First, a comment from Clinton-backer Mary:

    I will NEVER vote for Obama, nor will I vote for McCain. I will either sit this one out or vote for Nader. Obama cannot take for granted the base and he cannot spit on the aspirations of women, gays, and other base constituents and think they will all rally around him in Nov. Some of us have too much self-respect to be treated that way.

    And here is one from Obama-backer locanicole:

    I voted for Obama, but would have no problem voting for Hillary if she is the nominee (legitimate or not). My first concern is to not see a threepeat.

    For all the commentary about Obama followers being part of a cult, which one of those comments seem most cultesque? Which one shows a person more interested in following a person, rather than a party? Which one seems more focused on doing what is best for the country, rather than what is best for a single person?

    As far as the comments about Obama’s message of “hope” and “change” being nothing more than empty rhetoric, all one has to do is look at rally turnout to see whether or not the message is getting through, as well as who is bringing people into the process who have, traditionally, not been part of it. People seem to be connecting to all this “empty” talk, and an entire generation may very well vote Democratic for years because of it.

    I’d love for someone to tell me how that’s a bad thing.

  • I think things can get hot here, jen flowers, but Mary is consistently over the top. She tends to dominate threads and has all the markings of hacktastic thoughtlessness. Myopic assesments, screaming double standards, utter lack of consistency within even the same thread. There are a lot of Clinton supoorters I am interested in debating on the merits, but Mary’s obnoxious hyper-support of Clinton has basically pushed me out of being interested in posting on these boards at all anymore. As a long time reader, that makes me pretty frustrated. I only hope that- win or lose- she will go away when the primary process is over.

  • Wow, I skimmed that Mary quote the first time, but let me also note that the suggestion that gays should not be taken advantage of by Obama is laughable. He has been very consistently and publicly in support of homosexual issues, even in audiences who aren’t prone to be positively disposed to agree with him (like, for example, several southern black churches).

  • Someone should start bringing up how Obama left a press conference yesterday as questions regarding Rezko seemed to get too close.

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