The inherent challenge of defining a ‘win’ tonight

It would certainly be an exaggeration to describe today as a “Super Tuesday,” but with four primaries and 370 pledged delegates at stake, today is the biggest day on the Democratic nominating calendar since the actual Super Tuesday a month ago.

Gaming out the various scenarios is tricky, not only because the results are unpredictable, but because so much of the aftermath will be based on expectations, perceptions, and spin. It’s probably a good idea to consider the scenarios now.

Scenario #1: Obama wins Texas and Ohio

Given all of the recent polls and media attention that’s cut Clinton’s way, this seems highly unlikely. In fact, I haven’t seen or heard a single political observer anywhere who thinks this outcome is even possible. If, however, it comes to pass, Obama winning Clinton’s two firewall states will end the race for the Democratic nomination, and Clinton will almost certainly drop out fairly quickly. The margin wouldn’t make much difference — whether Obama ekes out narrow victories or cruises to easy wins, if he takes both, it’s over. But given how improbable this….

Scenario #2: Clinton wins Ohio; Obama wins Texas

A few weeks ago, the conventional wisdom suggested (indeed, Bill Clinton said rather explicitly) that Clinton needed to win both of her firewall states in order to stay competitive. The CW has apparently shifted of late, and the Clinton campaign now believes she can afford to lose one firewall state and stay in the race anyway. (Clinton boasted yesterday that she’s “just getting warmed up.”)

Given Ohio’s general-election importance, Clinton would likely say that her success in the state justifies staying in the race, and should serve as evidence of her stopping Obama’s momentum. Obama’s campaign would argue, meanwhile, that a Clinton defeat in Texas makes it practically impossible for her to be the nominee, and dragging the process out any further would only help Republicans. Given the importance Clinton placed on Texas, Obama’s spin may very well rule the day if this occurs.

Scenario #3: Clinton wins Ohio and Texas

Given the recent polls, this scenario — the firewall strategy the Clinton campaign hatched several weeks ago — appears increasingly plausible. Clinton had huge leads in both Ohio and Texas as of Feb. 12, when the campaign decided Ohio and Texas would be fail-safe states, and though those leads evaporated last week, her attacks on Obama seem to have given Clinton a noticeable and significant boost in both states in recent days.

As a matter of counting delegates, success in Ohio and Texas may not be enough to help Clinton catch Obama before the convention, but it’s simply not realistic to think Clinton would drop out after winning these two major contests. On the contrary, if Clinton wins Ohio and Texas, the race for the nomination will undoubtedly continue until at least April 22 — six weeks away — when Pennsylvania hosts its primary, making John McCain and the GOP very happy.

Of course, at the risk of driving everyone batty, “winning” Texas is a little hard to explain. Publius noted yesterday that there’s “no state where the popular vote tally bears less relation to the ultimate delegate count than Texas.”

For one, winning the popular vote matters less than winning the heavily-weighted districts. And as most people now know, those districts are Obama-friendly territory. Second, the post-election caucus results (which provide roughly a third of the delegates) can’t possibly be known for at least a week. From what I understand, each individual precinct has seven days to send in the results. So it will be a while.

All that said, I understand that popular vote totals create their own narrative, which in turn can materially affect the race. But still, the popular vote tomorrow night is a very imperfect proxy for the ultimate delegate winner. In fact, given the dynamics above, it’s virtually impossible for Clinton to “win” unless she blows Obama out, which is highly unlikely.

Can Clinton win more votes today in Texas and manage to come away with fewer delegates? Absolutely. And if that happens, who’s the “winner” in Texas? That will be open to considerable debate.

A week ago I felt much more secure about Obama winning both, even if the polls weren’t reflecting it yet. Now I am worried, I think Clinton’s attacks and attack ads have tossed the board, and created more undecideds which does NOT favor Obama.

I think Clinton’s attacks have been below the belt, but not outrageous, but Obama has NOT handled the pushback adeptly. Especially regarding the NAFTA crap.

It might cost him today. I don’t think HRC makes up any delegate ground, but just being able to declare victory will have an enormous impact on the race.

Obama wins both? It’s over, even if she stays in thru PA, she can’t win.

Split? PA will decide it.

Clinton wins both? As I said above, the delegates become a footnote, her comeback will be a huge story, and will validate the strategy that everybody just spent a month ridiculing. PA becomes huge.

  • I’m still hoping for polling bias in Obama’s favor, since the polls are skewed towards people who voted in the past. I’d like this to all be over on March 5 so we can stop focusing on the enemy within and focus on the enemy without.

    But, I have a feeling Clinton will drag this out to the bitter end.

  • you’re trusting the polls, now? I’d have said this years poll performance is an excellent reason to disbelieve them – and I’d put money on Obama winning Texas on delegates, and probably on the popular vote as well.

  • So there are actually more scenarios.

    #4 Clinton wins the popular vote in Texas, if not the most delegates, and also takes Ohio.

    #5 Clinton loses Ohio and the Texas delegates, but wins the popular vote in Texas.

    #6 & #7 Same thing, only with Obama.

    And, possible though not likely, #8 Obama wins Ohio, Clinton wins Texas.

    And then there are the Vermont/Rhode Island permutations.

  • Why would it really make McCain happy? A prolonged Primary is massively overshadowing him, keeping him on the sidelines.

    In the meantime, every possible angle of attack is being tried against Obama, which I see as a good thing. With the election all the way out in November, who’s really going to remember that little flap with Canada? And I will bet that his subordinates won’t be making any more mistakes like that– that’s the sort of thing which would cost him in the general election, but isn’t likely to have too much bearing on the primaries, whatever the press might like.

    Heck, just look at what tonight is going to bring– breathless coverage of the Democratic races, and kind of a bump-off of McCain getting over the delegate hurdle to win the Republifuck nomination.

  • Can Clinton win more votes today in Texas and manage to come away with fewer delegates? Absolutely. And if that happens, who’s the “winner” in Texas?

    The answer to this question doesn’t matter. If Hillary wins the popular vote and the most delegates in both states today, she would still only net 5 to 7 delegates today…a far cry from the 100-plus she needs. As a result, she’d have to win over 70 percent of the popular vote in every remaining state. It won’t happen. She will go to the convention with fewer elected delegates, and Obama will affirm the voters’ decision.

    It’s already over. Obama is our nominee. All this drama is exactly that.

  • “In fact, I haven’t seen or heard a single political observer anywhere who thinks this outcome is even possible.”

    oh… then you may have missed my commentary when I said, “The scenario where Obama wins Texas and Ohio – that outcome is possible.”

    Or maybe I just thought it.

  • Obama will affirm the voters’ decision

    I meant to say that the superdelegates (not Obama) will affirm the voters’ decision.

    Again…Obama is our nominee. Clinton is tearing him down and making him blow his wad (and those of us who contributed to his campaign) for no reason other than to feed her own ego. Mathematically, it’s already over.

  • Why would it really make McCain happy? A prolonged Primary is massively overshadowing him, keeping him on the sidelines.

    Because he doesn’t have to spend money tearing down Obama; Clinton will do it for him, all the while building his sound bite library with clips of her praising McCain’s experience and calling Obama an empty suit whose best quality is that he is articulate.

    Plus, at least some of McCain’s handlers must be aware of the fact that the more time McCain spends with the public, they less they will like him because of his off-the-cuff absurdities and warmongering.

  • I’m with Orange – I think Obama’s going to take Texas at least, and come close enough in Ohio to humiliate Hillary – which she richly deserves for that cheap shot yesterday.

    Anyone who still thinks party unity comes before winning the presidency in Clinton’s book is dreaming. Her suggestion that Obama has never done much of anything except make one pretty speech 6 years ago is plainly rebutted by the success of his campaign thus far. However, her incredible (not in a good way) performance has had the effect of making the overall Democratic effort falter, pumping sunshine into Republican hearts.

    Remember, considerably before this whole effort got underway, quite a few of us agreed that Hillary is the GOP’s dream nominee, because she is so divisive? I certainly stand by that, and the sampling of commenters who suggested they would vote for McCain instead, or stay home, bears this out. Incredible as it may seem, in a year that should see the biggest leftward jerk of the wheel in decades, the GOP could still pull off a victory. If so, they’ll have one person to thank. And it won’t be Obama.

  • With Limbaugh ordering his ditto-heads to vote HRC in Texas (while holding their noses), and it being both an open primary and a caucus, Texas is up for grabs. In any case she threatens to sue if she doesn’t get her way there.

    Having spent a very long weekend in Columbus, Ohio in 2004 campaigning for Kerry (I live in Massachusetts) I doubt Clinton will take that part of the state. It really is a horserace in Ohio, but unions and NAFTA are both big deals.

    RI goes for Clinton. Vermont goes for Obama.

    And the Rethugs are watching the mud-wrestling with great glee. Democrats are once again doing what they do best: snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

  • If Clinton wins popular votes in both Texas and Ohio, plus likely the vote in Rhode Island, it is Obama that is on the spot. He’s had weeks in the lead, had the press endorsement, the rushed calls from lots of folks for Clinton to quit, and all of the online rantings saying her situation is hopeless. But, if despite all of this piling on, if Obama loses tonight, then it is he who should consider dropping out.

    Besides, Obama has been undermining his own campaign and credibility in recent days and throughout with his drip-drip-drip disclosures about friend Rezko, his ‘too busy campaigning’ to fulfill his Senate oversight duties, and now about his failed foray into foreign policy with our Canadian friends. In the latter, he’s been shown to be inept and a bald-faced liar.

    Should Obama stay in what we get is daily updates and tid-bits on his friend Rezko. We may even witness a cameo appearance under oath at the trial. Now wouldn’t that make a grand campaign picture?!

  • I think Senator Clinton will stay in the race and probably win two of the four contests (OH, RI). Senator Obama will win more pledged delegates due to the dynamics of the TX process and a sizable win in VT.. It will be interesting to see if there is a cascade of superdelegates coming out for Obama if he comes out winning more pledged delegates today.

    I believe the party leadership will fall in line behind Obama if he wins more delegates. Especially after witnessing the scorched earth tactics of the Clinton campaign in the past several days.

  • Bizarrely, I think the press is going to inflate the importance of anything good that happens to Hillary today. The press really didn’t seem to like her much for a while — but then the Democrats had a likely nominee who was popular with Democrats and centrists, and who looked like a possible (likely?) November winner — and that would never do. So it was time to cut him down the way Clinton was cut down for a while. And if she pulls off a miracle, she’ll be cut down again, while the press says to McCain, “Hey, when’s the next barbecue?”.

  • #8 you

    Have a funny joke in your post that its over if Clinton wins Texas and Ohio tonight.
    She will have won every big state except IL Obamas home state. Maybe if you count WI then its 2 but that is it. Clinton isn’t going anywhere if she wins TX, OH and RI tonight and she shouldn’t. If it goes to the convention then the supers will decide who they think will beat McCain and just a feeling that most will think that its Hillary.

  • Ohio has terrible weather today. It’s far more likely that fired-up voters will get to the polls. Given that Clinton’s base is composed of people more likely to be “weather-challenged”, I’m going to predict that Obama wins there.

    Everything I hear from friends in Texas, that they’re hearing from their friends, is that Obama will win – they’re all saying “who the hell did those pollsters poll?”

    Let’s remember that the polling organizations don’t call cellphones, wich means they’re more likely to get the “technologically-challenged” voters (i.e., Clinton voters).

    I’m still practicing singing “Ding dong! the witch is dead!” tomorrow morning.

  • With Limbaugh ordering his ditto-heads to vote HRC in Texas… -Rich

    Exactly! Finally some evidence that there is a serious attempt to manipulate the Democratic primary, like Jim, Mary, and Greg have been so concerned about.

    Of course, they thought the Republicans were trying to get Obama to win it, so I doubt they’ll be very vocal about this little bit of evidence pointing clearly in the other direction, but I know deep down, because they aren’t hypocrites, that they’ll be railing against this blatant manipulation.

    And still nobody brings up the Rezko-Obama connection. -SteveIL

    It was brought up and debunked a long time ago, and other trolls bring it up periodically, too (you’re in good company), but, and I’m assuming the IL means you live in Illinois*, so you’ll know that it’s been thoroughly discussed and no inappropriate link has been found between them. When you have evidence, post it. Oh, there isn’t any. It’s just wild accusations? Thought so.

    But never fear, Patty Fitz is on the case, so perjury charges are imminent. Look out!

    *If that’s true, I do so take comfort pleasure in the fact that your Party in Illinois is a hollow, laughable thing where Jim Oberweis is the best candidate you can find to run for Hastert’s old seat. I hope you’re prepared for Congressman Foster in the 14th.

    Plus it must hurt knowing your vote for Johnny Mac won’t count for squat against the landslide of Democratic voters you’ll face in November, metal boy.

  • Piggybacking on posts 6 and 8 above, here is some more delegate math for anyone interested.

    Prediction: Clinton wins OH by 10%, TX by 5%, RI by 20% and loses Vermont by 10%. Probably a scenario that any Clinton supporter would take right now with open arms. But does this get her back in contention for the delegate lead? Not even close…while Hillary’s campaign might celebrate 3 victories in the nomination battle on Tuesday night, they appear to have already likely lost the war.”

  • There’s also the fact that 27 of the 97 delegates in Ohio come from the Columbus area, which is so pro-Obama that they’re wondering how big the blowout will be there. If the northern part of the state really is closed down for ice storms, the big Obama turnout in Columbus (which is forecast only for rain) may carry the day.

    The ground game is going to be everything and everything I have seen from the Obama campaign in the past two weeks tells me their ground game is better than that of the Empress, who’s still running her “it’s my turn” top-down campaign.

  • Just so folks know, Obama has out fundraised Clinton in Vermont 10:1 is way ahead in the two polls that have been done here. But Hillary will net one Vermont vote from my family today. My wife “Poopsie” is going for Hill and I’m going to vote for Dr. Paul. We have an open primary and a little saying in Vermont- “I’m a Vermonta, I do what I wanta!” And this Credo even extends to transplants and Carpetbaggers like Steve, whom we’re proud to claim. Happy election, town meeting and primary day everybody!

  • #14

    What exactly was Hillarys scorched earth tactics? You mean campaigning like she should. Hillary didn’t publish the memo about the NAFTA flap. Maybe you just think that she should just stay in DC and let Obama campaign by himself. Obamas been a little frieghting as of late and the media is just starting to pick him apart.

  • …his drip-drip-drip disclosures about friend Rezko… -Matthew

    Which disclosures? Has there been something new? No, you’re just talking out of your ass.

    You do realize the trial hasn’t even started, it’s only in jury selection? Like that Canadian memo, your comment is full of lies.

    And neither Obama nor Rod Blagojevich will be called as a witness, and even if they were, how does being called as a witness make you culpable in anyway?

    When there’s indictments against Obama, I’ll listen. Otherwise you’re pointing to a clear blue sky and telling me it’s smoke.

  • Re: Resko: “You’re pointing to a clear blue sky and telling me it’s smoke.”

    Hear hear.

  • doubtful,

    either Obamas advisor met at the Canadian embassy or he didn’t. First it was that he hadn’t then it was he went there to tour the embassy so which is it he can’t have it both ways.

    On the Rush telling his diddo-heads to vote for Hillary I think thats wrong. And I believe the caucus after polls close should be Democrats only but they will allow anyone that voted in.

  • “Nobody brings up Rezko.”

    Up until a few minutes ago, Doubtful was right, He’s still right that it is a non-scandal, but not that nobody is bringing it up. According to TPM Election Central, a Clinton Aide said it should “should set off alarm bells in newsrooms across America.”

    Isn’t she coming very close to having the Zell Miller rule applied to her?

    (As for the tinfoil hat crew who see her running as McCain’s Vice-President — and thus reasonably certain to inherit the office if he wins — the Convention has to vote on McCain’s choice, and I don’t see a Republican convention aprroving this — though this might be something she’s forgotten, to dust off my own high-grade aluminum chapeau.)

  • Re: Jim at 22,

    When Clinton had her MLK/LBJ flap, it arose entirely out of her comments and Obama remained completely silent (although that didn’t stop her from blaming the Obama campaign).

    On the other hand, when the Canada/NAFTA nonsense manifested, Clinton piled on. Just like in the debate when Russert asked his ridiculous Farrakhan question. Clinton could have remained silent, but she didn’t. She piled on.

    She has about as much class as an insect.

  • My prediction: it almost doesn’t matter what happens today or how many delegates Obama picks up. Clinton stays in for another month until PA, and does her best to destroy the party that won’t give her the crown she demands. Singlehandedly, she elects McCain and turns the SC completely over to the rabid right, who burn the last remaining shreds of the Constitution.

  • Here’s some early exit polling from Rhode Island for you:

    Obama:1 (me)
    Hillary: 0

    Now I’m gonna go watch old Obama speeches on youtube during work, cause I gotta have that fix. His silky smooth voice is the most rapturous narcotic that I have ever experienced. Maybe, when he’s finally done with this whole politics thing, I’ll hire him to read me my bedtime stories…

  • SteveIL,

    And still nobody brings up the Rezko-Obama connection.

    I’ll see your Rezko faux-scandal and raise it with a real Keating 5 scandal.

  • Apparently all who think the Rezko-Obama thing don’t read the…you know…news, and know what’s going on. Kind of like Obama. A bunch of lemmings devoted to an empty suit.

  • SteveIL, 100% fact free.

    When there’s indictments against Obama, I’ll listen. Otherwise you’re pointing to a clear blue sky and telling me it’s smoke.

  • To everyone who’s bringing up the Rezko-Obama non-scandal, while, all the time complaining about Clinton getting a raw deal from the press… Do, please, check out:
    http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/clinton-library.html
    and then look up Vin Gupta himself.

    Hillary is lucky that a) Obama is not willing to engage in Tonya Harding Rules of Competition (at least not against an opponent from the same party) and b) that the MSM is willing to give her a pass (at least temporarily) vis her money sources, tax returns and connections to slimeballs

  • regardless Clinton should stay in…go to the convention.

    BTW guys I found some brilliant/awesome analysis on Obama’s Fundraising and other current happenings on the campaign. I haven’t seen anything like this mentioned anywhere in the MSM.
    Check out the article “Follow the Money” on http://savagepolitics.com/?p=165, “Bush’s Twin and the G.O.P.” http://savagepolitics.com/?p=172 and “Barack Obama’s Apotasy” http://savagepolitics.com/?p=101

    Check their “Political Analysis” and “Humor” sections for other striking perspectives and comedic analysis on both parties.

  • Hillary is lucky that a) Obama is not willing to engage in Tonya Harding Rules of Competition (at least not against an opponent from the same party) Oh, yeah? Apparently you never heard of Alice Martin (from Chicago) or Blair Hull.

  • Sorry. That would be Alice Palmer, not Alice Martin. Obama knows how to engage in the Tonya Harding Rules of competition. By the same note, he also knows how to do the things “liberals” accuse Hans von Spakovsky of doing, disenfranchise voters. Obama’s done that very well.

  • Just wanted to say that I’m one of those in a delegate-heavy district in Texas, and my six year old’s class had a class election and Obama won 10 to 7. For the Republicans, Huckabee got 2 and McCain and Paul were routed.

    So I think that about says it all. Obama will win by three votes, while Huckabee shuts-out McCain. You can all relax now.

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