Why ‘socialism’ is acceptable, but ‘fascism’ is beyond the pale

Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R), whom no one has ever accused of being a mental giant, picked up on a familiar right-wing theme the other day while touting John McCain’s campaign.

“There’s a point in time where money is not what matters, ideas are what matters,” Perry said, speaking after a McCain event near Austin. “And I think that’s the big difference — [examining] John McCain and what he believes in versus Obama and his socialist agenda will be a very eye-opening moment for Americans.”

There’s that word again: “socialist.”

We’ve been heard red-scare rhetoric being tossed around with increasing ease in conservative circles lately. Fox News invited an analyst on recently to argue, “What worries me about the Democrats is that if you listen to them, their message is so explicitly socialist. I mean, at every opportunity they seem to have this contempt for capitalism.”

Similarly, CNN’s Glenn Beck went on a tirade in January, arguing that Hillary Clinton’s policy agenda “sounds like the Soviet Union” — he labeled her “Comrade Clinton” — and said of John Edwards, “Now, put a red star on his furry head. He’s a communist.”

Evan Smith, noting Rick Perry’s remarks, looked forward to the day when “some unauthorized idiot surrogate of Obama’s calls McCain a ‘fascist’ and there are calls to denounce, reject, etc.”

I’ve actually been wondering about this for a while.

You’ll notice, of course, that Perry equated Obama’s policies with a “socialist agenda,” and no one even raised an eyebrow. McCain didn’t distance himself from the comments, Obama didn’t respond, and reporters didn’t highlight the comments. The governor of one of the nation’s largest states engaged in subtle red-baiting, and it was considered so routine, no one, anywhere, cared at all.

I’m curious, though, what would happen if a Democratic governor of a large state publicly speculated about the difference between Obama and what he believes versus McCain and his agenda of “fascism.”

To be absolutely clear, I’m not accusing McCain of fascism, and I don’t think McCain is a fascist. My point is that it seems to be perfectly acceptable for the right to throw around charges of “communism” and “socialism” when it comes to leading Democratic presidential candidates, but the political world would probably be thrown into quite a tizzy if the left were to use “fascism” with equal ease. Why is that?

This has come up before. In 2004, Trent Lott, a sitting U.S. senator at the time, told an audience that John Kerry is “a French-speaking socialist.” If a sitting Democratic senator had called Bush a “barely-literate fascist,” would conservatives and the mainstream media have just yawned and dismissed it as politics-as-usual? Probably not — it would have been seen as Democrats running a campaign based on “anger” and “bitterness” — and yet, Lott’s attack was a total non-story.

I don’t have a real point here, but I am curious how we reached this point. Why is “socialist” considered a routine criticism in our discourse, but “fascist” is considered beyond the pale?

I think “communism” and “fascism” have been seen as the far poles of the political spectrum, and both are deemed off limits these days. (Unless you’re brain damaged like Glenn Beck.)

“Socialism” has been seen as a sort of lighter version of communism — the fellow-traveling “pink” to the scary “red” — but there’s no comparable softer shade of fascism in popular parlance. (At least no scary furriner creed. The modern GOP is looking like “fascism lite” a lot these days.)

  • If this is what capitalism looks like, I will take socialism any day. When greed and the corporation trumps all else; personal health (privatized healthcare), personal welfare (downer cows, dead pets and kids), well, I am sure I don’t have to go on and on, everyone loses except the elite corporate “citizen” (who apparently has more rights than I do).

    Fascism lite? I don’t think there’s anything lite about it, TR.

  • Why is “socialist” considered a routine criticism in our discourse, but “fascist” is considered beyond the pale?

    Actually, Dems have been called both recently (which is really weird), but it really doesn’t matter which term is used, it matters who uses it. Somehow, Republicans are expected to say this stuff and that makes it okay — I mean, they’ve said it so often that it must be true, right?

    And while we’re on the subject off fascism, I’d just note that it’s such an ill-defined term that I’d use authoritarian or some other, more descriptive term. Then again, we’re talking about the media and “authoritarian” has seven syllables. Forget it.

  • I find it amazing that these people want to drudge up the fears of old communist Russia and socialism. But what I feared most about them was the stories about people being spied on by their own government. About them being hauled away and thrown in jail with no trial. About them being tortured in the name of the state. About how the Government was all powerful and dictated its will upon the people.

    To me, this obviously sounds more like the Republican Bush administration.

  • Well, in truth, fascism is associated with death camps while socialism is associated with european welfare states. Calling someone a “French-speaking socialist” is about as much of an insult as calling someone a “left-handed pasta-eater.”

    Spittle-flecked ad hominem is the basic language format of winger discourse. Eliminate that and they wouldn’t have anything to say.

  • I think TR is on the right track. “Socialist” has primarily an economic connotation, describing not only what the Soviet Union’s system, but also the system used (or at least formerly used) in a lot of Western European countries.

    The word “fascist,” on the other hand, is primarily associated with the word “Nazi,” which in turn is associated with concentration camps, political executions, etc.

  • Because socialism is the preferred governance of many of the US’s allies, maybe?

    And because the media doesn’t seem to care when right-wingers throw around any slight, be it socialism, communist, or even fascist? Of course, left-wingers aren’t allowed the same leeway.

  • I agree that it’s communism and fascism that are seen as the polar opposites. Perhaps the opposite of socialism is ‘unfettered capitalism’. The problem is, that doesn’t sound as scary as it proves to be in reality! We’re talking unfettered by government regulation, media attention, and even ethics. After all, religion is way too busy worrying about who sleeps with whom to concern itself with capitalistic excess….

  • If any those guys ever met a real socialist or communist they’d be pretty shocked to realize how little resemblance they bear to the Democrats.

  • But … I thought all of us here were a bunch of fascists? That’s what Jonah Goldberg said. I heard he even has a book about it.

    /snark

    Once again (and with seemingly everything): It’s Okay If You’re A Republican.

    That’s not just a smartass response seen all over the left blogosphere. IT’S THE TRUTH.

    Republicans can do or say damn near anything inflammatory or just plain false without any repercussions whatsoever. And the not-really “liberal” media ignores it, or buries it on page H87.

    But if a Democrat says something that can only be construed as inflammatory or false in the fevered mind of some barely-human nimrod, everyone has a cow, it’s covered in the media for weeks, and the Dem is forced to apologize for something he or she didn’t actually say or do.

    Again, that’s not some totally out-of-leftfield thought of mine. It’s the truth, as shown by reality.

    John Kerry botches a Bush-bashing joke, and it’s suddenly a slam against the military he actually served in, and it’s covered for more than a week leading up to a ridiculously important election in which he was not running.

    John McCain sings about bombing Iran, and … **crickets**

    Farkaahn notes his support of Obama, even though Obama never asked for it and both rejected and announced the crazy guy’s words. Yet the media covers it ad nauseum and it’s even part of a debate.

    McCain actively seeks and then receives the support of a Catholic-bashing anti-Semite and … **crickets**

    I could go on, but the evidence just proves the point: Almost nothing a Republican says is held against him or her, while everything anyone even remotely to the left of Rush Limbaugh says is held up as some example of the left being unhinged, and it’s held against every Dem everywhere.

    For a bunch of folks who supposedly control the media, we sure don’t get the breaks, do we?

  • Gah! The Republicans are too lazy to use more than one word labels. I first heard these words from callers on the Republican call in lines to C-Span in the past few weeks. It is shocking to hear them applied to United States candidates for the presidency. I am still highly offended. Socialism/communism both need to be bleeped out of any political discussion because they are inflammatory. The fact they are allowed, thrown about, used to label is extremely offensive. If McCain really wanted to stop the name calling, he could. But he doesn’t say a word. Shades of McCarthy-anism.

  • What’s wrong with “socialism”? I’m from a Western European socialist country, where the leading party’s symbol is a red rose. We have socialized healthcare and we like it.

    If I could vote here, I’d vote Democrat because of their socialized agenda!

  • Mostly I think it’s because Democrats are above such petty bullshit. At least the elected ones. I have no problem saying Bush is a barely literate fascist and Cheney is a bloviating fuckwad. None at all.

  • This is the same immortal crowd that’s been around for decades throwing smears of “commie” or “pinko” at everyone who doesn’t support their fawning adulation of the corporate state and the wealthy elite. It seems like it’s in their DNA. They certainly don’t want people to think about WHY communism ever got started, or why it appealed so easily to so many. Obscure, distract, lie, smear — same ol’ crowd seeing the same ol’ fairy tales. For the soulless, like Beck, it pays very well too.

  • I’m troubled by how effectively the right has co-opted language to make Americans vote counter to their own interests. As we saw earlier today “tort reform” is code for stripping away one’s Constitutional right to a trial by jury. “Authorization for the Use of Military Force” was a declaration of war that didn’t sound like one. “States’ rights” is dog whistle political speech for ceding federal jurisdiction for civil rights or procreative rights. “Private accounts” means scuttling Social Security by telling everyone they are on their own. The list goes on …

    The whole “socialist” crap is another attempt to appeal to the American myth that we’re all strong enough and tough enough to take care of ourselves which couches the true Republican agenda of essentially not providing any governmental oversight or protections for anything and throwing each American to the corporate dogs as divided and conquered individuals. Everybody for themselves, suckers. This also appeals to another myth of American exceptionalism, not in the international sense, but in the sense that it’s always the other guy that is the one who’s leeching off the system while we ourselves are in no way dependent on any governmental resources. Cut funding to government programs? Of course, as long as it’s to the other guy’s program.

    We’ve been told for so long that government is the enemy and that the market is our friend that buzzwords like socialism conjure up bad images. I’m sick of hearing Republicans essentially using nice fuzzy terms to say that our society should be governed by humanity’s vices like selfishness and indifference than by our virtues like sacrifice and concern for our fellow human beings. This only benefits people of means and tears the fabric of our society apart.

  • It would be wonderful to see some Dem politicians start to educate Americans about the very concept of socialism, so that people would understand that we do, indeed, already have a hybrid socialist/capitalist system, as do the western European countries. The difference is only in where you draw the line. I think if people could digest that concept and remove the visceral antipathy to the concept of socialism, it wouldn’t be long before they’d be clamoring for single-payer health care. The fact that the term socialism is so glibly tossed about as a slur or worse is simply a testament to the cluelessness of the American electorate. They desperately need to be educated beyond McCarthyist thinking. It’s unbelievable that we’re still stuck in this mode half a century later. What ever happened to evolution when we need it?

  • Let me put it this way, Obama is no capitalist, is no free market follower, doesn’t believe in free trade, believe in big union, government intervention in the economy. mmmm Is not that socialism? Nothing wrong with that. I am not saying he is for torture, a criminal, a terrorist lover. I am stating the fact that he has socialist views. Why is that an insult?

  • Oh no! That Socialist has a plan to save your house and get health care for your kids and stop rich bastards from making off with bags of cash. Our guy wants to keep everything just as it is –

    Hey? Where’re you going? Stay away from that nasty socialist! Hello?

  • We’re watching the smear and jeer tactics of our American political system. There is no profit in socialism, so just by asking the simple question, does Obama, Clinton, and McCain adhere to the profit motive in their own lives, becomes the operational focus. All three are examples of success through personal investment. Stop the smear by pointing out the net worth of each of the three above. Each would be seen as suspect by any true socialist. The term used is incendiary, and it is used, no doubt, with deliberate intent. The shit some of us are willing to throw is truly sometimes disheartening. -Kevo

  • Let me put it this way, Obama is no capitalist, is no free market follower, doesn’t believe in free trade, believe in big union, government intervention in the economy.

    You can put it whatever way you want, but that’s pretty far off the mark.

    Obama may not have jumped at the corporate law firm, but I’m pretty sure he got a paycheck for teaching con law and even working as a community organizer. (He and his wife bought a nice expensive house with money from their bank account, as any of the Rezkogate!!!!11!!!!one!!! trolls will tell you.) Sounds like a capitalist to me.

    And, I hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing as a free market in America. We have corporate welfare coming out of our ears, from tax breaks to the airline bailouts, and lots of so-called conservative market intervention, ranging from farming and ethanol subsidies to the Fed fiddling with interest rates.

    Free trade? Again, a bit of a misnomer, but all Obama has called for is a tinkering with NAFTA. Sounds like he’s still for it.

    And yes, he believes in government intervention in the economy. As does every single presidential candidate with the exception of Ron Paul. You know, I don’t believe tax cuts stimulate the economy the way the supply siders do, but there’s absolutely no escaping the fact that using government tax rebates to try and jump start the econopmy counts as, you guessed it, “government intervention in the economy.”

  • I don’t know if fascist is beyond the pale, but the word plutocrat isn’t…and that’s what McCain is as evidence by the myriad of lobbyists running his campaign (many of them for free). I wonder what they want in return? Hmmmmmmmm.

    In a race of Democrats v. Plutocrats, the Democrats will win every time.

  • Anytime these clowns want to give me back the roughly $5k I pay a year in property taxes to put their kids into socialized public schools, and also give me back my $20k they have spent in Iraq on the socialized military. Then we can talk.

    Roads, public works, Medicare, Medicaid, social security, police, fire department, FBI, military, courts, prisons, the government in general is all socialized. That is so I don’t have to do these things on my own, which realistically would never get done. Without social programs we would look like Africa with militias running around rapid and the general public virtually defenseless against everything.

    The real problem is republicans like social programs until the point where they feel like they are putting in more then they are receiving. I put in way more then I receive, but I like kids in school, clean water, public parks, and feeling safe from my door to work, at work, and where ever else I travel. I don’t mind if you don’t have what I have, I am happy to help my fellow man out, that is progress, that can only improve a society. I like social programs, not because I am a commie, but because if I had to do what the government does for me, it wouldn’t get done because it would cost me an amount I don’t have and/or involve skills I don’t possess.

    Social programs define a society.

  • I think you do “have a point.”

    That socialist agenda are something to fear is a wonderful rhetorical stance to get behind. But the spectre of socialism as defined by the American Right simply does not exist.

    Liberal Democrats will not respond to such charges because they ultimately do nothing to, for, or against anybody in particular. Such comments are beyond preaching to the choir. Such comments are expected.

    Referring to a Conservative Republican as leaning towards fascism would cause trouble because the statement is valid and true. Many Republicans hide behind market capitalism and its liberal social order because they really are more interested in strengthening corporate power in the growing global economy. Their corporatist principles are not Capitalist in nature at all. Hayek would not be happy. von Mises would cringe. The Capitalist market is ideally (whatever, right,) a social organizing force that works best without interference. Republicans (and most Democrats) cannot help but tamper with the mechanisms of the market. And welfare for the wealthy corporatists is certainly fascist. Concentrating power into a pure 1% over against the toiling masses and letting what isn’t hoarded and reinvested to trickle down to those poor upwardly mobile populations is the contemporary example of fascism. (Nevermind the spectre of PNAC.)

    Remember, McCain is a war hero. How could he be a fascist?
    Obama is black. He must have a bone to pick with the white power structure, right?
    Clinton is a woman.
    etc
    etc
    etc

    you do have a point. It is simply not one the masses want to hear.

    Anyway, when I see Bill Kristol smile, I see Fascism.

  • And because the media doesn’t seem to care when right-wingers throw around any slight, be it socialism, communist, or even fascist? Of course, left-wingers aren’t allowed the same leeway.

    Exactly right, Crissa. Apparently, the right wing is allowed to act like an bunch of toddlers while the left-wing is supposed to act like a bunch of adults.

  • And another thing…

    Anytime a plutocrat claims that progressive taxes are Marxist, we might remind them that Adam Smith advocated in favor of a progressive tax in the Wealth of Nations decades before Marx came along. Tell ’em to take it up with the Father of Free Enterprise.

  • If by “fascism” one means the comon definition of a corporate state dedicated to racist ideologies and a policy of unrelenting war….

    The American right has been unrservedly fascist since at least the time when Preston Bush was financing the rise of a little-known demagogue in Germany 75 years ago, followed by the Right’s attempt to keep American from preventing said obscure German demagogue to taking over Europe and then fighting the USSR for them, followed by the postwar red scare in which anti-imperialists were effectively silenced while the wars for United Fruit were restarted (after having been silenced by the war the Right didn’t ant to fight – WW2).

    And just as that obscure demagogue did, they call themselves “conservatives” and claim their philosophy is that of “conservatism.”

    If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

    It must be a pheasant!

    Having been called a “communist” by ignorant illiterate cowards like Glen Beck, I have the perfect solution for him: five minutes alone with me while I am wearing my really pointy-toed cowboy boots….

  • What “liberal” and “the left” ain’t doin it for them rednecks anymore? The base isn’t deep enough to understand what a “socialist” is and will accept it as bad no matter what. The wingnuts could start calling Clinton and Obama philanthropists and the Koolaid drinkers would think that it’s an insult.

  • While the word “socialist” should bring up images of Western Europe, it doesn’t. In the American lexicon, it means basically the same thing as “communism”. To further cloud the issue, “communism” in the American lexicon means the U.S.S.R.

    Unfortunately, too many Americans are ignorant. The Soviet Union was as much “communism” as we are “free market”. Now, if Lenin had lived another ten years, or if someone besides Stalin had taken over the Soviet Union, perhaps the it would have been communist. But even the Soviets didn’t call themselves communists most of the time.

    They did refer to their system as “socialist”. (I have a propaganda poster on my wall calling the proletariat of the world to unite behind their “socialist fatherland”.) But mostly they called it Marxist-Leninism…which means approximately nothing when a guy like Stalin says it.

    Marx wrote a political philosophy for the “developed”, Western world. It was adopted and modified by Lenin to fit Russian circumstances (neither developed, nor Western). Before he died, he could see that it wasn’t working out so well, hence the NEP. But Stalin pretty well threw everything but the words out the window. Stalin was a Red Fascist. He merely dressed fascism up in communist propaganda, and he cut out the corporate middle man by simply having the state take over those duties.

    Stalin’s Soviet Union did provide socialized states services like education and health care…but (and correct me if i’m wrong) so did Hitler.

    I cannot think of an example of a true communist system, nor can i think of a true free market system. (though Russia in the mid to late 90’s probably came pretty close)

    We are certainly a fascist country, we just haven’t quite added the dictatorship…which is the facet everyone looks for to define fascism, rather than using the dictionary.

  • Why is “socialist” considered a routine criticism in our discourse, but “fascist” is considered beyond the pale?

    Look at who you are quoting. The mass media is decidedly and completely partisan. That’s why Republicans can get away with murder and Democrats get smeared with the most viscious, petty, transparantly false nonsense.

  • Piggybacking on Cleaver:
    From free online dictionary, “facism” is:
    A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

    Substitute “unitary executive” for “dictator” and I think that defintion pretty well describes exactly what we have today. McCain is for a continuation of it. I have no problem calling him a fascist.

  • But even the Soviets didn’t call themselves communists most of the time. — Lex, @32

    That’s right. The way I remember it being when I was growing up in Poland, y’all might have called us “commie”, but we didn’t. We called ourselves “socialist” countries (and “democratic”, too, just to make it funnier). Socialism (can’t remember the short slogan describing it; sorry) was supposed to be temporary; a way station on the road to heaven, aka communism (from each according to his abilities; to each according to his needs)

    And yeah, Lex… I’ve often wondered myself how things would have turned out in USSR, if either Lenin had lived longer or if Trotsky, instead of Stalin, had taken over from him. I remember reading (and translating as I went) Orwell’s Animal Farm to my Mother and she’d name all the characters in it and give me thumbnail sketches of their bios and politics. Until then, I never realized that Animal Farm was “roman a clef”…

  • You’ll notice, of course, that Perry equated Obama’s policies with a “socialist agenda,” and no one even raised an eyebrow. McCain didn’t distance himself from the comments, Obama didn’t respond, and reporters didn’t highlight the comments. Probably because Perry made a true statement.

    If a sitting Democratic senator had called Bush a “barely-literate fascist,” would conservatives and the mainstream media have just yawned and dismissed it as politics-as-usual? It’s been going on for seven years; don’t even think about denying it. In 2005, Harry Reid publicly called Bush a loser. You know what his “punishment” was? He became Senate Majority Leader.

    I don’t have a real point here, but I am curious how we reached this point. Why is “socialist” considered a routine criticism in our discourse, but “fascist” is considered beyond the pale? Godwin’s Law. Because “fascist” implies “Nazi”. Bush has been accused of racism for most of his presidency (not against Jews, but Arabs, blacks, “brown people”), even though it isn’t true. “Socialist”, on the other hand, doesn’t have all that type of baggage, even though most socialists that I’ve witnessed in this country are good at hiding their virulent racism. And communists? They rank with Nazis in everything: racism, hatred, slavery, etc.

  • Socialist is bad and applies to all Democrats.
    Fascist is bad and applies to SOME Republicans and you have to keep track of which.

    If you’re ignorant, which message is easier to absorb?

    Simplicity of message has never been the Democrats’ strong suit.
    I’m not sure I’d want that to change.

    Black and white, you’re wrong I’m right, we win, they lose, our way or the highway…
    It smacks of, well.. fascism.

  • I don’t have a real point here, but I am curious how we reached this point. Why is “socialist” considered a routine criticism in our discourse, but “fascist” is considered beyond the pale?

    We reached this point by letting Druggie Limpballs turn liberal into a swear word in regular discourse. And by letting Republican’ts abuse the terms Democrat and Democratic until they get used as insults, too. The mainstream media turning into a paid political spin machine for the Republican’ts over the past several decades hasn’t really helped the situation much, either…

    And, I would slightly disagree with the rest of your statement. “Socialist” and “fascists” are considered routine criticisms when they are voiced by Republican’ts in our discourse, but “fascist”, as well as “socialist”, and/or any factual criticism of actual Republican’t illegalities, are considered beyond the pale when they are voiced by anyone else except Republican’ts.

  • The fact that these sort of discussions are even necessary is indicative of the dismal level of discourse in this country. It is simply not possible to have a functioning democracy when such large constituencies within the electorate willingly buy into this simple-minded drivel. It’s like giving 9 year olds the vote.

    It’s flabbergasting to me that high profile politicians would speak as if a completely unfettered market were even possible, much less desireable. All economies (with the possible exception of Somalia. Not an example we wish to follow, I would hope) are regulated to a greater or lesser degree. The discussion is about how much or how little.

    Or at least among sane adults it is.

  • Lex @ 32

    This is the 1st of any comment on any blog i’ve read that displays an understanding of the differences between Socialism, Communism, Stalinism and Leninism.

    So as you mentioned having no example of a communist system in practice, that is because Communism is defined as the end point after the Socialist world system had fully evolved. The leaders of the October Revolution were starting the World Revolution, had Lenin not died when he did, had the proletariat of Western Europe risen with greater force…something to think about.
    The building of “Socialism in 1 Country” was the beginning of Stalinism and the betrayal of the revolution. And what is Socialism in 1 country but National Socialism, the language starts getting muddled, but that’s everyone’s history lesson.

    Now this global corporatist economic system we’ve built is teetering on a collapse unlike any since the early 20th century, the world hegemon is in the process of shutting down its democracy in transition to Fascism, there are areas of the world suffering from food supply riots, governments in South America are moving further left than any in the modern era and “socialist” has replaced “liberal” as the choice insult of the reactionary right…Time to RAISE THAT RED FLAG HIGH once again, conditions grow ever more favorable for the World Revolution.

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