Top Clinton strategist says Obama ‘can’t win the general election’

I thought it had become clear in recent weeks that the Clinton campaign is much better off when Mark Penn, Clinton’s pollster and campaign strategist, isn’t talking to reporters. Indeed, over the last week or so, I’ve noticed that Penn’s name seems to be showing up in print quite a bit less.

But, alas, Penn piped up again yesterday and, of course, sparked a controversy.

Though the campaign later argued that he hadn’t said it, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s chief campaign strategist told reporters this morning that Sen. Barack Obama “can’t win the general election.” […]

Here is what Penn said…. It’s in the last 20 seconds or so that he says Obama “really can’t win the general election.” As you’ll hear, he also says that “if Barack Obama can’t win” in Pennsylvania, “how could he win the general election?”

Later, a reporter asks what he meant. Clinton campaign communications chief Howard Wolfson jumps in to say that “Mark did not say that.”

Regrettably, he already had. USA Today posted the audio clip.

The Obama campaign quickly responded, saying, “It can’t inspire too much confidence in the Clinton campaign when their pollster ignores both polls and math by making comments as divorced from reality as this one. Senator Obama is leading in delegates, states won, the popular vote, and fares better than Senator Clinton against John McCain in poll after poll, including critical swing states like Iowa, Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico and Wisconsin.”

There are a couple of different angles to this, most of which make Penn look worse.

First, I can appreciate why the campaign would quickly try to downplay Penn’s remarks, but the truth is, despite the stir the comments made, this really isn’t that surprising. The Clinton campaign has effectively been making this argument for weeks; Penn was just more explicit about it than Clinton and her aides would probably prefer.

Second, Penn’s argument — even the intended argument — is based on a faulty premise. Penn’s point was that Obama will likely lose the Pennsylvania primary, which demonstrates a general-election weakness. But there’s ample evidence to show how flawed this thinking is. Penn surely knows this, but candidates can lose a state’s primary and still win the state in the general election. (Obama lost Massachusetts; any chance he’d lose it in November?) Indeed, specifically when it comes to Pennsylvania, the latest polling shows Obama losing to Clinton by a wide margin among Dems, but nevertheless faring better than Clinton in a general-election match-up against McCain.

Third, I’m personally not sure that either Dem is “unelectable” in November. Recent polling shows Clinton and Obama leading McCain nationally.

And fourth, my biggest fear in relation to Penn’s remarks is what Jonathan Chait described.

She needs to convince the remaining uncommitted superdelegates to split for her by about a 2-to-1 margin. The only way she can get a split like that is if she can persuasively argue that Obama is unelectable. And the only way she can do that is to make him unelectable. Some people have treated this as an unfortunate byproduct of Clinton’s decision to continue her campaign. It’s actually a central element of the strategy. Penn is already saying he’s unelectable. It’s not true, but by the time the convention rolls around, it may well be.

Can they just stick to going after McCain?

So much for keeping the onus on McCain. At least for the Clinton Campaign.

Penn denounces and rejects his own statements!

  • Will someone please tell the Clintons it is not the Clinton party but the Democratic Party. The polarization of the Clinton’s with their disgusting ads , emails and words will destroy the Democratic party and possibly lose the Democratic seat in the White House.

    Clinton Greed will destroy all that is around them.

  • I really HOPE that this strategy she’s employing doesn’t resonate with the undecideds in her favor. Negative campaigning is what one resorts to when they cannot win on their own merits. And it could work. If she was strong enough, capable enough, and qualified enough, she would’t have to resort to these techniques to narrow the gap.

    My only hope is that she cannot win this way, and Obama is better for it.

  • (Jonathan Chait)
    “She needs to convince the remaining uncommitted superdelegates to split for her by about a 2-to-1 margin. The only way she can get a split like that is if she can persuasively argue that Obama is unelectable. And the only way she can do that is to make him unelectable.”

    Whatever strategy Clinton uses — winning superdelegates, getting pledged delegates to switch, counting “important” states — will look like she is changing the rules to Obama supporters and independents. That’s going to make Clinton unelectable.

    The Democratic party is back to taking African-American voters for granted. It’s been years since the Democrats actually paid more than lip service to African-American issues –a small exception is the effort to eliminate the disparity between crack and powdered cocaine. Someday, black voters are going to get fed up and move en masse to the Green Party. In the mean time, taking away Obama’s win in pledged delegates and popular vote will cause black voters to stay home in November. The result could be a new Republican majority in Congress (in the Senate, at least).

    I thought it had become clear in recent weeks that the Clinton campaign is much better off when Mark Penn, Clinton’s pollster and campaign strategist, isn’t talking to reporters.

    After watching campaigns of Gore 2000 and Kerry 2004 snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, I think the Democratic party needs to forget about lawyers and kill all the consultants.

  • At least we know now that Mark Penn like Hilary herself has his head buried in the sand! and just can’t face the TRUTH!

    How gullible does Penn think the Voters are.

    Wake Up Mark and Smell the Coffee the END GAME is here! get Clinton to stand down with the little respect she still has and before she destroys The Party!

  • Can they just stick to going after McCain?

    Why on earth would Clinton want to attack her good friend, the well-respected and eminently accomplished gentleman from Arizona? He’s clearly crossed the threshold to be commander in chief, and any attacks on him would be scurrilous.

    This Obama kid, however…. What nerve!

  • Thing is, Mark Penn wins either way if the GE is Clinton vs. McCain because McCain’s chief of staff is one of Penn’s employees. Penn’s PR firm represents Blackwater and all sorts of other businesses that are profiting immensely from Iraq.

    Obama is the one person in the mix from whom Penn won’t make ridiculous amounts of money. What the hell does he care about the Democratic party?

  • I’m waiting for Mary to come here and somehow make this the fault of Obama or his supporters

  • The only way she can get a split like that is if she can persuasively argue that Obama is unelectable.

    The real math already shows that Hillary is likely unelectable. All this will do is make the Democratic Party unelectable. When, oh when, will we learn?

  • The superdelegates need to step up to the plate and put Clinton out of her misery.

    She obviously cannot bear to withdraw, and her campaign’s reliance on fantasy to keep it going is extremely unhealthy for all of us. I’m sure in Clinton-land there’s a scenario where they pull off their “coup by super” and still get all kinds of support from blacks and independents in the general, but obviously there’s a disconnect between reality and their campaign’s leadership. Please don’t make too much of this analogy, but they really remind me of the Nazis in 1944, promising victory based on fantastic superweapons which barely even work on paper. Obviously I do not think they resemble the Nazis in any significant way, but their denial-based victory scenarios strike me as similar. What we’re seeing is a classic “bunker mentality”.

    Superdelegates, it’s time to go into Hillary’s bunker and tell her she’s done.

    She’s done, and we now need to quickly pull the party back together and move on to the real race at hand. The longer we wait to get started on McCain the fewer coat-tail pickups we’ll get in November. And that’s the real prize we can have if we work at it together.

  • More and more the MSM is discussing openly how Obama is suppose to be failing to make inroads with white voters. The closer to the convention this line is going to be played more and more. It will be repeated by the Clinton campaign, Hillary will do a Casablanca denial. Super delegates will be scared into voting for Hilary. She will be the next president. Fear works.

  • “She will be the next president. Fear works.”

    Well she might be the nominee but the she’ll lose in the GE.

    Polling right now is irrelevant in her case as she hasn’t stolen anything. If she does then the polling will look very different.

  • Later, a reporter asks what he meant. Clinton campaign communications chief Howard Wolfson jumps in to say that “Mark did not say that.”

    Mark did say that, because Mark doesn’t bother to attend the strategy meetings where you tell everyone to be subtle when they tear Obama down and make him unelectable, so at least your sorry ass will have plausible deniability. Mark is chief strategist, if he wants to use a 2 by 4 every time he talks because he’s too ignorant to understand subtlety, that’s your problem. Mark is getting rich off your stupid asses, what does it matter to him if what he says hurts the campaign? He’ll blame it all on you when McCain wins in November, because of all the things we have learned about Clinton’s advisers top of the list would have to be that none of them has ever personally made a mistake in their lives. Always someone else’s fault, motto of the campaign.

  • “if Barack Obama can’t win” in Pennsylvania, “how could he win the general election?”

    Who says he can’t win Pennsylvania? Harris Wofford endorsed him. It’s pretty arrogent to talk like you’ve already won it, just because you employed some nasty racist tactics.

    If Mark Penn were not a white man, he would not be in this position today. And if he were a woman, none of this would have been happening. And if Eliot Spitzer were not an Austrian Jew, he wouldn’t be in this mess. And if Hillary hadn’t been married to Bill, Bill would have never been president anyway, so the nomination belongs to Hillary! It’s Hillary’s damn it!

    Obama may have more states, more delegates and more votes, but Hillary is White! That means she earned her way to where she is. She wasn’t lucky enough to get there on some affirmative action, because the country was all caught up!

    It’s just disgusting. All of it. The Clinton campaign is totally racist. I used to be so happy to support her, but I don’t think I could even vote for her in the general now. You can’t blatenly use racism like she is and still be respectable. Yuck.

    She needed to totally repudiate Ferraro, and she didn’t. She didn’t. The thing looks more like a ploy because of the Ferraro stepped down. ” The Obama campaign is attacking me to hurt you.” My God! The language is so blatent. Scary black man attacking and hurting white women!

    The nomination fight is over. I now believe the Clintons are racists. Carrying on is not only hurting Obama’s chances, and the Democratic party, but also now- the legacy of Bill Clinton’s presidency and the overall health of the nation.

    Hillary should be McCain’s running mate. It’s a shame.

  • Well, electability is about all that’s left to Senator Clinton.

    Of course, when the polls showed Clinton losing to McCain and Senator Obama winning, the Obama campaign was happy to trumpet their electability versus Clinton’s. Now the polls show both Clinton and Obama leading McCain (though in the margin of error). So now they are both ‘electable’, right?

    Much of that seems to be caused by the fact that the coverage is all on the Democratic nomination now.

    Which means we want this to end why?

    However, yes, shut the f**k up Mark Penn.

  • Why was it not newsworthy when Obama’s people said that Clinton cannot win in the Fall because of her divisiveness and high negatives (despite polls showing her leading McCain)?

    Obama cannot win in PA. Further, there is no reason to believe that Obama would hold the several red states he has won during the Fall election. The Republicans and Independents will go back to McCain because they are not liberals or progressives, but just messing with the Democratic election process (because they have little interest in their own primaries). The Democrats will need the big blue states to win in the Fall. Obama is not strong in those states, certainly not as strong as Clinton.

    Further, the venom in comments in the blogosphere is driving Clinton supporters away from Obama. Many of us are disgusted by the bullying and the repetition. Saying something over and over will not make it true. I have stopped listening to anyone on Air America, when I hung in for a long time because I wanted to see a liberal talk show station succeed. Now I just don’t care about them any more. I feel the same way about Obama. I want the Democrats to succeed, but I dislike him and his supporters so much that I cannot generate any enthusiasm for the fall campaign. Obama is doing nothing to repair his relationship with Clinton supporters and pushing her prematurely out of the race will alienate us further. That will definitely hurt his chances in the Fall. Those of you here who have been so disparaging to Clinton supporters are not thinking ahead to the time when you may need us back in the party — we may not be there because there is no reason to join a group that can turn so ugly against its own fellows.

  • Hey Lance:

    look at this graph here

    What’s interesting is that Obama was pulling away from McCain handily up until right around mid-Feb. Then something happened, and the trajectory reversed, and now McCain is gaining ground on Obama.

    Do you know what else happened right around mid-Feb? Clinton started hammering Obama on everything, in an attempt to make him unelectable so the supers would have to endorse her.

    Isn’t that nice? We’re witnessing the destruction of the future of our party by a relic of our past, and the longer we wait to end this, the more likely it is we end up with no party whatsoever. Period.

    I’m starting to get very angry with the Democratic party.

  • Obama is doing nothing to repair his relationship with Clinton supporters and pushing her prematurely out of the race will alienate us further.

    There’s nothing premature about asking the person who lost the popular vote and the pledged delegate race to refrain from attempting to destroy the person who won both of those.

    It’s called “sane” and “rational”.

    Of course, you can’t seem to grip the reality that, hey, Clinton can’t win the popular vote or the pledged delegates, so I’m not sure either of the above terms necessarily apply to you.

  • “Further, the venom in comments in the blogosphere is driving Clinton supporters away from Obama. Many of us are disgusted by the bullying and the repetition. Saying something over and over will not make it true.”

    Mary, you really really really need to look in a mirror.

  • we may not be there because there is no reason to join a group that can turn so ugly against its own fellows.

    You do see the irony here, right? If not, I’ll run it down for you:

    In making his point Spinney quoted a Washington Post column by Michael Gerson on “Hillary’s Unappealing Path,” written just after the Potomac primaries. It said:

    “Though it is increasingly unlikely, Clinton may still have a path to the nomination — and what a path it is. She merely has to puncture the balloon of Democratic idealism; sully the character of a good man; feed racial tensions within her party; then eke out a win with the support of unelected superdelegates and appeals, thwarting the hopes of millions of new voters who would see an inspiring young man defeated by backroom arm-twisting and arcane party rules.”

    Gerson is obviously not rooting for the Democrats, but his analysis, like Spinney’s, has stood up.

    Puncturing the idealism? “The skies will open up, the light will come down..” Sullying the character? Not a Muslim — “as far as I know.” (Yes, yes: saying that someone is a Muslim is no slur. In the circumstances..) Appeals? The Michigan and Florida delegations. Racial tensions? Passim. Plus, infamously two days before the Ohio-Texas voting: “I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002.” (The video of her saying so, here, is from a pro-Obama site, but obviously she really said it.)

    (Update: In a live CNN interview just now, Sen. Clinton repeated, twice, the “Sen. McCain has a lifetime of experience, I have a lifetime of experience, Sen. Obama has one speech in 2002” line. By what logic, exactly, does a member of the Democratic party include the “Sen. McCain has a lifetime of experience” part of that sentence? And I guess with her nonstop references to 2002 she must be talking about Obama’s anti-Iraq war speech, not the 2004 convention speech that actually put him on the map.)

    That’s James Fallows, one of the most even-handed and respected voices on the left, over at the Atlantic.

    It’s ironic of you to be chastising the Obama campaign for getting ugly with its fellows, when the entire strategy of the Clinton campaign at this point is precisely to get ugly with its fellows, and not only do you endorse this, you insist–INSIST!–that we continue on with it.

    And meanwhile, Obama supporters are being “nasty” be insisting that hey–attacking other Dems is a bad thing, which is precisely why Clinton’s campaign needs to end. If the only way she can win is by getting nasty enough to destroy Obama’s electability, then the supers should intervene and end it.

    To which you’re telling me to stop being nasty? To stop trying to “prematurely” end her campaign? Please. Engage with reality here. The longer we let Clinton’s campaign string out, the more we’re simply enabling a political hit. YOU ARE SUPPORTING A POLITICAL HIT JOB, and chastising as “nasty” those who are AGAINST THIS POLITICAL HIT JOB.

    Engage with reality.

  • Further, there is no reason to believe that Obama would hold the several red states he has won during the Fall election.

    Except, of course, the polling data we have on hand for a general election matchup between Obama and McCain, which shows him with solid leads in five red states, a trending win in a sixth.

    Colorado: Obama 50, McCain 41
    Iowa: Obama 50, McCain 41
    Nevada: Obama 46, McCain 41
    New Mexico: Obama 50, McCain 43
    North Dakota: Obama 46, McCain 42
    Virginia: Obama 47, McCain 46

    Plus, in Nebraska, the polls indicate that Obama would take 2/5 of the EC delegates.

    So six and a half red states going for Obama, according to the best polling outfit doing the only state-by-state general election matchups. Gosh, that sounds like “some reason” to believe he’d hold onto them. Or at least a better reason than the fevered imaginations of Mary the Always Wrong.

    Oh, Mary — those same polls show that Clinton would lose a set of important blue states to McCain — Washington, Oregon, and even Michigan. And your gold standard of Pennsylvania? She currently has a razor-thin lead of 47-46.

  • Ho Hum. Same old Republican tactics; have a staffer say something outrageous, then denounce the comment. You’ve succeeded in getting it out there, but can still pretend you’re above the cut and thrust yourself. John McCain is adept at this through practice. If you have to sack everyone who does this, eventually you’ll run out of staff, but there’s no danger that’s going to happen before November.

    Whether or not Hillary really will do anything to win, that has solidified into the perception. If she managed to hijack the nomination, she’d have all the Republicans against her, and about half the Democrats. Not casting a vote, in protest, is the same as helping the other party win.

    It really is turning into – as some Republican strategist described it on TV last night – a circular firing squad. Give the Dems enough rope, and they’ll hang themselves every time, no matter how promising victory looks.

    If Hillary wins in Pennsylvania, her campaign will bill her as having “seized the momentum”. And the great machine will lurch on, screeching and shedding parts as it goes.

  • But of course, the whole “black is white, up is down” thing with Mary and others doesn’t even need that long an explication. One need only look at the fact that she’s chastising Obama supporters and his campaign about being nasty to the Clinton campaign in the comments section to a post detailing yet another Clinton hit on Obama

    I mean, you see how ridiculous that is, right Mary? Don’t you?

    And, btw, Mary, Obama never said Clinton couldn’t win, he argued that he would be better at bringing the country together, and he said part of that was not even her fault, but the results of unfair attacks in the 90’s, but that didn’t make it any less true. And it was news when he said that. What he said was far classier and gave much more credit to Clinton than Penn’s ham-handedness here, and the double-standard you’re imagining simply doesn’t exist.

    So, yeah. Take your head out of the sand. Even you really want the skies to be blue, it’s not “nasty” to point out that, hey, today it’s gray skies and rain clouds.

  • But of course, the whole “black is white, up is down” thing with Mary and others doesn’t even need that long an explication.

    Didn’t you read Mary’s claim that black voters don’t count?

    Seems like it’s more of a “black is down, white is up” mentality with her.

  • I forgot Ohio went red the last two times, so make it seven and a half red states that Obama would take from McCain.

  • And the only way she can do that is to make him unelectable. -Jonathon Chait

    The obvious problem with this strategy is that in the process of making him unelectable, she also makes herself unelectable and all bust assures a Johnny McSame victory.

  • Is anyone really surprised by this line of attack? I mean, it’s the only thing the Clinton campaign has left. They are losing in pledged delegates, popular vote, money earned, states won and general election polling. The only tactic left is to attempt to scare enough people to convince a bunch of supers to choose them out of fear.

    The problem with this approach is that if it works, she will have demoralized enough potential voters that she WILL lose the general election…and it if fails there is a good chance she will have demoralized enough potential voters that Obama might lose the general election.

    I hope Obama makes extraordinary gains in Penn over the coming weeks. Of course, I can hear the Clinton campain now if that were to happen: Pennsylvania doesn’t really count because…..

  • The Clinton campaign keeps claiming an advantage for Hillary because she can win the big states, such as Pennsylvania and Ohio and Obama can’t.

    Win these states? These are primaries, against Obama not McCain, where also she often has the advantage of support from officials such as Pennsylvania’s governor and Philidelphia’s mayor.

    It is nonsense to contend that Obama would not do well in these states. Does Clinton believe that those who voted for her in the primaries will suddenly become Republicans?

    homer http://www.altara.blogspot.com

  • 18.Mary said: “Why was it not newsworthy when Obama’s people said that Clinton cannot win in the Fall because of her divisiveness and high negatives (despite polls showing her leading McCain)?”

    When did his “people” say anything like this? Random supporters on blogs don’t count, it has to be someone actually affiliated with his campaign. I didn’t see it, which doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Though given your tendency to equate the two groups as if they were the same, I won’t believe it until you provide evidence.

    Obama cannot win in PA.

    You say this like you can see the future. It is not a factual statement, please stop spewing random nonsense and pretending it isn’t controversial. Polls say he can win, and you don’t provide any evidence otherwise.

    Further, there is no reason to believe that Obama would hold the several red states he has won during the Fall election.

    Again, current polls say he can. They may be wrong, but you don’t provide any evidence that they might be.

    The Republicans and Independents will go back to McCain because they are not liberals or progressives, but just messing with the Democratic election process (because they have little interest in their own primaries).

    Many people have pointed this out to you before: neither party makes up a large enough percentage of the population to win a national election based on high turnout alone. They need at least some independents, and saying they will all go back to McCain in November (even if you’re right, which again you provide no evidence of other than your Godlike ability to see the future) does not provide any reason to support your candidate. Obama has a better chance of appealing to independents than Clinton, all polls I am aware of show this.

    The Democrats will need the big blue states to win in the Fall. Obama is not strong in those states, certainly not as strong as Clinton.

    Yet another stupid argument that you continue to make even after dozens of people have pointed out to you why it is so dumb. The “big blue states” will go for the Democrat in November, that is why they are called freaking “blue” states. Whether Obama is as strong there as Clinton is irrelevant, all of them are winner-take-all so it doesn’t matter at all how much the Dem wins by. Any random Democratic congressperson could beat McCain in them.

  • The “big blue states” will go for the Democrat in November, that is why they are called freaking “blue” states.

    Kos has demolished this pathetic line of argument:
    http://kos.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/12/12552/6475/923/475043

    The Clinton campaign claims that since it won the “big states”, it makes her a more effective general election candidate. Let’s take a look at that logic.

    The 10 biggest states by population. I’ve added numbers form SUSA’s 50-state poll matching up Obama and Clinton to McCain.

    1.) California: O +9, C +10
    2.) Texas: O -1, O -7
    3.) New York: O +14, C +18
    4.) Florida: O -2, C +9
    5.) Illinois: O +29, C +11
    6.) Pennsylvania: O -5, C +1
    7.) Ohio: O +10, C +10
    8.) Michigan: O +1, C-even
    9.) Georgia: O -13, C -21
    10.) North Carolina: O -2, C -8

    Of those, California, New York, and Ohio (all of which Clinton won) are solidly Democratic. California and New York will certainly stay (D) in November. Illinois, which Obama won, is solidly (D) no matter who the nominee is. The two are essentially even in Michigan, while neither is currently competitive in Georgia.

    Of the states that will be competitive, Obama has clear advantages in Texas and North Carolina, while Clinton has clear advantages in Pennsylvania and Florida. In the electoral math, that is 49 EVs for Obama, 48 for Clinton.

    Yup, Obama has a one electoral vote advantage from the top 10 “big states” that Clinton can’t stop yammering about.

    It gets more persuasive, so read the whole thing.

  • It’s not about big states Homer, it’s about winning big swing states in the GE.

    Blue states are pretty reliable, and red states are for the most part unreliable, but the swing states are where you need to win support, and he doesn’t have it, period.

    Another thing, March poll numbers won’t mean shit in November, so please stop wasting space in the comments using these meaningless numbers as proof of anything.

    Swithcing topics, notice how Clinton rejects immediately any support from racists or people who make controversial racial statements like “Obama is winning because of his support among blacks”, which is an entirely true statement, but God forbid we talk about it.

    Anyhow, Obama’s spiritual advisor goes and preaches his racist messages and he does not reject his support, and he also did not reject the support of Louis Farrakhan for fear of losing the black support, and then made a joke about rejecting it in order to neutralize the effect without losing support.

    Back to a point that Mary made and that I’ve been making for quite some time, why on Earth is it OK for Obama to use negative press that has been associated with Clinton due to years of attacks from Republicans as proof that he is more electable? In other words, she cannot say he is unelectable because he lacks support in swing states, but he can say she is unelectable due to negative criticism from the right wing?!?!?!

  • It’s not about big states Homer, it’s about winning big swing states in the GE.

    Are you suggesting Clinton has an advantage over Obama here? Go look at the polls.

  • Blue states are pretty reliable, and red states are for the most part unreliable, but the swing states are where you need to win support, and he doesn’t have it, period.

    For the millionth time, Iowa, Colorado, Virginia, North Carolina, Missouri, Wisconsin are all swing states where he beat Clinton in the primaries.

    Another thing, March poll numbers won’t mean shit in November, so please stop wasting space in the comments using these meaningless numbers as proof of anything.

    Guess what else won’t mean shit in November? THE RESULTS OF DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES IN SWING STATES. Bill Clinton lost New Hampshire in the primaries and won it in the general; who would’ve guessed? You do realize that, right? If March polls are meaningless, primary results, which sample hardcore Dems and dem leanders on their opinions of two Democrats, are even more meaningless in predicting how a the preferences of a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT POPULATION OF VOTERS, hard-core Dems, moderate Dems, Independents, moderate Republicans, and hard-core Republicans, will choose between a Democrat and a Republican.

    As such, your claim that he has no support in swing states has no backing whatsoever; it’s just an assertion, your opinion. Which isn’t worth much, since you’ve shown a remarkable ability to be wrong on just about everything.

    In the timeless words of Gerry Ferraro, “how’s that?!”

  • Mary Anne wrote:

    Obama is doing nothing to repair his relationship with Clinton supporters and pushing her prematurely out of the race will alienate us further.

    Did anybody happen to see Barack’s Mississipi “victory” interview with Wolf Blitzer?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c5RYOtEY_Y

    I put quotes around on the victory because Barack did not smile once the whole time.
    It was stunning. Having just trounced Clinton, why not a single smile from him for over five minutes? Here’s why: Because the Ferraro pig was out there replaying her 20 year slur against Jesse Jackson on every channel in the US about how lucky it was that MLK got shot so he could have a holiday named after him. Or something similarly republican-slimy like that. Obviously, Barack was deeply troubled at that moment despite his victory.

    Along these lines it is interesting that at 1:40 mark Barack again continues to respond positively to Clinton and his clear intent to support Hillary if she is the Dem nominee. Of course he does this in practically every speech and interview.

    But if you live on a bitter deserted island like the Mary-Annes and the Ferraros of this world, your sense of humanity has been so corrupted that you don’t even hear Barack’s language or see his attempts at reconciliation. Nope. His language is not even there. Is it Mary-Anne? No instead you continue to pout, harangue, avoid the reality of the numbers, and threaten to vote, like an unglued Tom Hanks in Castaway, for a flat, washed-up old volleyball that lingers on the beach; because Wilson is, after all, the right color, the right age, and the right sex.

    Mary-Anne… You are a troll sir.
    Why don’t you take your ball and go home and play?

  • Are you suggesting Clinton has an advantage over Obama here? Go look at the polls. -TR

    Another thing, March poll numbers won’t mean shit in November, so please stop wasting space in the comments using these meaningless numbers as proof of anything. -Greg

    TR,

    I believe Greg has looked at those polls, and has come to the conclusion that since they don’t support his premise, that they are meaningless.

    I no longer see a point in trying to rationally reach Greg, Mary, or any of the other reality-challenged commenters because they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are allergic to logic and reason.

  • …red states are for the most part unreliable, but the swing states are where you need to win support, and [Obama] doesn’t have it…

    Wrong…Gregorrino Obama is turning red states purple and purple states blue.

    Wanting something to be true, doesn’t make it so.

  • Oops. Please place an imaginary exclamation point after the name, “Gregorrino”, in my comment above.

  • 33. Greg said: “Another thing, March poll numbers won’t mean shit in November, so please stop wasting space in the comments using these meaningless numbers as proof of anything.”

    Agreed that March numbers are unreliable, but they’re better than whatever it is you cite as evidence. What is that again?

    Switching topics, notice how Clinton rejects immediately any support from racists or people who make controversial racial statements like “Obama is winning because of his support among blacks”, which is an entirely true statement, but God forbid we talk about it.

    No, I didn’t notice that. When is this immediate rejection supposed to have happened? What I noticed was Clinton saying she “disagreed” with Ferraro, then a long silence during which Ferraro kept spewing your “truths” (which you have reframed into something semi-defensible instead of the actual bile that Ferraro reiterated over and over) and Maggie Williams sent out a bizarre email accusing the Obama campaign of racism for objecting to Ferraro’s statements. Nowhere in there did Clinton reject immediately Ferraro’s support, it was almost 48 hours later before she finally stepped down on her own. So basically your statement is a lie.

    In other words, she cannot say he is unelectable because he lacks support in swing states but he can say she is unelectable due to negative criticism from the right wing?!?!?!

    Again, when has Obama or anyone in his employ actually made that argument? Citing random comments on blogs or from members of the media doesn’t count as something that “he” is doing, whereas Mark Penn is specifically making your swing state argument re Pennsylvania, as have people like Wolfson and Ickes in more general terms.

  • she cannot say he is unelectable because he lacks support in swing states [?]

    No, she can’t, because he’s ahead in many key swing states (Iowa, Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico and Wisconsin.). Unless we’re only counting swing states as the states in which Clinton leads. Which wouldn’t be surprising.

    But just as most real Democrats are sick of Republicans making their own reality and ignoring the facts, we’re none to keen on Clinton and her supporters continuing the alarming trend.

    Show us some numbers rather than just repeating tired talking points, and we’ll listen. Otherwise, wishing won’t make it so, and continuing this sad insistence that Hillary’s losing is really winning — and Barack’s winning is really losing — is utterly pathetic and the reason we’re all getting sick of the Clinton camp.

  • You want to rely on polls, fine.. here’s some interesting info from polling data from Ohio and Pennsylvania:

    In the national Pew survey, and in Quinnipiac polls of Ohio and Pennsylvania, Obama lost more Democrats to McCain than Clinton did. In the Pew survey, Obama struggled particularly among the same blue-collar white Democrats resisting him in the primaries: Fully 30 percent of white Democrats earning less than $30,000 a year preferred McCain over Obama. Clinton would lose only half as many of them to McCain, the polls indicate. In the Quinnipiac surveys, Clinton likewise outpolled Obama against McCain among white women without college degrees, a key general election swing group that has overwhelmingly preferred her in the primaries.

    Findings like these help explain why many Democrats think Obama offers greater potential rewards as a nominee, but also presents greater risks. If Obama runs well, he seems more likely than Clinton to assemble a big majority and trigger a Democratic sweep — not only by attracting independents and crossover Republicans but also by increasing turnout among African-Americans and young people.

    But if Obama stumbles, he could face a greater danger of fracturing the traditional Democratic coalition by losing seniors and blue-collar whites to McCain, principally on security issues. Clinton’s reach across the electorate may not be as long, but her grip on her voters could be firmer.

  • Shalimar @ 41

    One of Obama’s statements early on in the race was how Clinton had more negatives than any other candidate. What negatives do you think he was talking about if not negative perceptions spread through right wing media?

  • Greg, Mary, please see here.

    Obama is ahead in EVERY metric in this race: delegates, total votes, states won, primaries won, caucuses won, red states won, blue states won and money raised. Not every metric that “counts” or that we like. Every metric.

    He is obviously in the lead at this point in the race. To argue otherwise is to ignore facts and to ignore reality, which is not a sound position to be in. Those are ugly Republican traits, that we’re all trying to rid our government of.

    If Hillary Clinton ran a clean and positive campagin, no one here would be arguing that she should exit the race before it is over. But she has not run such a campaign. In desparation, she and her surrogates have lied, attempted to cheat, and smeared Barack Obama because they are between a rock and a hard place.

    The numbers, right now, say she cannot win. That may change or it may not. But if Hillary Clinton was interested in her standing in the party, and the future of the party, she would be attacking John McCain, and running against Barack Obama, not the other way around. She would be arguing her own merits, not trying to claim, against all reason and evidence to the contrary, that Obama is the weaker candidate who cannot win. Her argument is petty, weak, and above all has all the hallmarks of desperation, which is rarely an attractive trait to voters.

    Her desperation, while understandable, is ugly and a turnoff to a lot of Democrats who used to hold her in high regard. Running a sound, honorable campaign against your opponent is fabulous. Swinging wildly and claiming your opponent (who leads in every way) is really destined to lose is Rovian and ugly and beneath Hillary Clinton and our party. She is just a candidate for this office, as is Obama, not the pre-ordained heir to the Presidency. And right now, as a candidate, her days are numbered because she was outplayed. The party and the voters don’t owe her a thing, but we get the strong impression she feels she is owed this office because the more apparent it becomes that she will likely lose, the wilder and more desperate her (and by her I mean her campign’s) attacks on Obama become.

    All we want is a clean and reasoned campaign from both sides. And the Clinton campaign, unfortunately, abandoned that course long ago.

    Is it more important to you that Clinton win at any cost, or that a Democrat win? I’m not sure this party has room or use for anyone who roots for their candidate to scorch the earth on the path to the nomination.

  • Later, a reporter asks what he meant. Clinton campaign communications chief Howard Wolfson jumps in to say that “Mark did not say that.”

    Regrettably, he already had.

    THIS is what scares me more than anything about the Clinton campaign. Some of their tactics have gone ‘over the line’ yes, and others have pushed it to the limit, but some of that is ‘just politics’ or ‘giving Obama a taste of what’s waiting in the General.’ Maybe I don’t buy these, but at least there is an argument to make for them — except for the ‘endorsing McCain over Obama’ part.

    But its the Wolfson attitude, which has permeated the Clinton campaign, is why I have become more and more anti-Clinton. This attitude is, more than anything else, the hallmark of the Republicans and the Radical Religious Right, and is why fighting them is so important for me.

    Now one of my ‘guilty pleasures’ is watching THE PEOPLE’S COURT. And one of Judge Milian’s pet phrases — when responding to a litigant who is obviously lying — is “So what you are saying is, ‘Judge, who you gonna believe, me or your own lying eyes.'”

    That’s what I am hearing more and more from the Clintons and why they are scaring me — maybe not quite to the point where it really might not be important to choose between her and McCain, but closer to that point than I would have thought possible.

    Because what she is saying is in effect, what we hear from Bush, from Malkin, from Robertson, from Creationists, from Limbaugh, from every religious right spokesman, most of all from Rove and his pupils:

    Reality is what WE say it is”
    and if you remember it differently, or have evidence that contradicts it
    “who you gonna believe, me or your own lying mind?”

    This is simply a blatant — if minor — example, but there have been so many:

    “Our firewall is Ohip and Texas. Once we win there, we will be ahead.” turning into “If Obama doesn’t win all four states, he’s behind.”

    Ferraro’s comments, first in a radio interview, repeated several times in interviews over several weeks being changed to ‘something she said to a reporter’ (implied, ‘like the Power thing’)

    and her Texas closing speech being followed the same week by the first ‘I have experience, Sen. McCain has experience, Sen. Obama has a speech.’ statement.

    and so many more.

    It isn’t just the changes, but the contempt she sees for people. It is as if she is saying ‘they are such fools that they won’t remember what I said last week if I say the opposite this week.’ And she attempts this, and what is worse, seems to get away with it even in the era of YouTube and blogs.

    Just the way the right-wing does. And this may be the most important reason why i have always fought them, in secular or religious garb.

    [Now just a personal note for those who don’t usually feel up to working through my long-windedness but are attempting this. I’ve always tried to be ‘strong in opinion, moderate in language.’ I’m a New Deal/Great Society Liberal Democrat — with strongly libertarian (small L) ideas in personal matters. But I’ve always considered conspiracy thinking better left to the farthest reaches of the right wing, feel that Occam’s Razor usually implies that stupidity is a better explanation than malevolence — with plenty of exceptions — and I feel that terms like ‘the Bush Crime family’ and ‘Rethuglicans’ and the like — or cries of ‘fascist’ — only hurt our points and have never used them.

    I only say this because it may heighten what I am saying below.]

    THIS attitude I have mentioned is, as Orwell points out, the essence of all totalitarianism.

    No, I am not saying that Clinton, or any of the others I’ve condemned ARE totalitarian. They aren’t. But they are using the tools of totalitarians, and it is those tools, those attitudes that are what is dangerous.

    Again, remember what Orwell actually wrote in 1984 and ANIMAL FARM. Forget the catch-phrases, the Cliff Notes and Classic Comics versions we all carry around in our head. Go back to what the books said (and if you’ve never actually read them, it’s worth doing so).

    In every case, the way Orwell shows a victory by the totalitarians — over the populace in general or over a particular character — is by showing the character accepting the Leader’s version of reality over his own memories.

    Let me repeat this: I am not accusing Hillary Clinton, or the Republicans or even Rove of using these tools with a totalitarian intent. I believe they are merely using tools they think will work to gain advantage in the short-term, and simply are ignoring the long-term effects. But the danger lies in just that, that unless we fight them, it will be true that they do work.

    [After I wrote this — sorry for the length — I decided to cross-post it as a diary at PAM’S HOUSE BLEND, but it started here.]

  • Greg, from your same National Journal article (the paragraph just before the one you quoted):

    In a recent Pew Research Center survey, for instance, Obama carried independents against McCain by 6 percentage points, while McCain carried them against Clinton by the same amount; the difference mostly reflected Obama’s stronger showing among independents earning at least $50,000 annually. Other surveys, such as a Quinnipiac University poll in the key battleground of Pennsylvania, have found that Obama also swipes more Republicans from McCain than Clinton does.

    And the paragraphs after yours:

    Findings like these help explain why many Democrats think Obama offers greater potential rewards as a nominee, but also presents greater risks. If Obama runs well, he seems more likely than Clinton to assemble a big majority and trigger a Democratic sweep — not only by attracting independents and crossover Republicans but also by increasing turnout among African-Americans and young people.

    But if Obama stumbles, he could face a greater danger of fracturing the traditional Democratic coalition by losing seniors and blue-collar whites to McCain, principally on security issues. Clinton’s reach across the electorate may not be as long, but her grip on her voters could be firmer.

    So the danger with Obama is if he stumbles. And the problem with Hillary is that she keeps trying to trip him.

    From your original reference:

    Obama struggled particularly among the same blue-collar white Democrats resisting him in the primaries: Fully 30 percent of white Democrats earning less than $30,000 a year preferred McCain over Obama. Clinton would lose only half as many of them to McCain, the polls indicate.

    It’s unfortunate that there are some people who are unwilling to vote for Obama now and in the future. I’m not going to attempt to know what their reasons are, but I do know that any Democrat who would vote for a Republican in the general if Obama (or Clinton) is elected is not someone we want on our team, and not someone we should be pacifying.

    I believe Obama is the better candidate, and I believe that the swing states he puts into play are worth the risk of losing the DINOs in Ohio and Pennsylvania.

    I’d rather lose having run the best candidate, than lose having run the “safest.”

  • Greg, it’s interesting that you choose Pennsylvania to highlight: Clinton’s own campaign advisor’s think Obama can win in Pennsylvania. So who do you believe, your post or your candidate’s campaign advisor?

  • But if Obama stumbles, he could face a greater danger of fracturing the traditional Democratic coalition by losing seniors and blue-collar whites to McCain, principally on security issues. Clinton’s reach across the electorate may not be as long, but her grip on her voters could be firmer.

    This is the best reason I know of to vote AGAINST Hillary. Screw the firm grip on a narrow majority. Where has that gotten the country for the last 28 years? It’s time to take advantage of the disgust with Bushco and roll the dice on getting a strong majority which can actually make some progress towards undoing the damage. Hillary is not that candidate, and the 50% + 1 electoral strategy is hopefully a thing of the past.

  • Pointing to the WSJ Opinion section to make your argument — the mark of a true progressive! Definitely the go-to point for serious Liberal Opinion.

    I’m not terribly worried about what the WSJ Opinion contributers say swaying the opinions of sane Democrats and Independents and even a few Republicans. If McCain can have his crazy religious pals, so can Obama. If McCain hammers Obama on this, Obama hammers back.

    Wright isn’t an Obama campaign member. He isn’t an Obama surrogate. He’s a crazy regional figure who’s being thrust into the spotlight to scare the white folks.

    Obama has rejected everything controversial Wright has said. What more do you want, Greg?

  • My apologies. I said that Rev. Wright was not a member of Obama’s campaign, although it seems he has an honorary position. My bad.

    It also appears he may resign from that position — which he should.

  • I’ll tell you what is over the line. Yesterday MSNBC(in conjunction with CNN) was speaking to the writer of the now famous Saturday Night Live skit which poked fun at the media. MSNBC said SNL was totally pro-Obama and that they was blatant racism because SNL chose a white guy to potray Obama. The funny things was the writer is totally pro-Obama and MSNBC said that SNL timed the series and caused Obama to lose Ohio and Texas. Now, lets face SNL is not what it was in years past and to suggest one skit from a show would influence an entire primary…words can’t describe it.

    That is the stuff that will hurt Obama. The media needs to start focusing on the issues and not this petty B.S..

  • Now, lets face SNL is not what it was in years past and to suggest one skit from a show would influence an entire primary…words can’t describe it.

    Right. It’s not like the skit was endlessly replayed on all the cable news nets and covered in the New York Times and other print outlets, and it’s certainly not like Hillary Clinton herself referenced the skit in the important pre-Ohio debate, and it’s definitely not the case that the Associated Press documented the ways in which the media started getting tougher with Obama right after it.

    Words can’t describe it. Except for all those articles which have.

  • Mary – and what, exactly, are Clinton supporters doing to ensure they haven’t driven Obama supporters away? If the shoe were on the other foot, and Obama had won as few states as Clinton has, I am *certain* that Clinton supporters like yourself would all be calling for Obama to drop out. I am certain because you seem to be doing that *now*, even though Clinton is *behind*. So it’s Hands Across America if, and only if, it’s *your* candidate winning? I’ve always said that I’d vote for Clinton if she was the Dem candidate in the GE, but the argument that you won’t be happy unless we deem the loser the winner makes me wonder just how many Clinton supporters would support the Dem candidate when that candidate is Obama. Not participating in the GE because you’re having a temper tantrum only benefits the Republicans, and hurts you as well. Want 4 more years of the same old shit? Then dig your heels in, Mary dear. But don’t come crying when McCain is president because you have done *nothing* to reach out to your fellow Democrats and Independents. Can you hear me now?

  • DON’T BE DUPED!!!

    Large numbers of Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses. Because they feel he would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. And because they feel that a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket would be unbeatable. And also because with a Clinton and Obama ticket you are almost 100% certain to get quality, affordable universal health care very soon.

    But first, all of you have to make certain that Hillary Clinton takes the democratic nomination and then the Whitehouse. NOW! is the time. THIS! is the moment you have all been working, and waiting for. You can do this America. “Carpe diem” (harvest the day).

    I think Hillary Clinton see’s a beautiful world of plenty, and comfort for all. She is a woman, and a mother. And it’s time America. Do this for your-self, and your children’s future. You will have to work together on this and be aggressive, relentless, and creative. Americans face an even worse catastrophe ahead than the one you are living through now.

    You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don’t want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more immoral profits for them-self.

    Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than it shows. And higher than Obama’s. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!

    As much as 30% of Obama’s primary, and caucus votes are Republicans trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses where it is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating help.

    Hillary Clinton has been out manned, out gunned, and out spent 2 and 3 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous, and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton.

    If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in November he will be slaughtered. Because the Republican vote cheating help will suddenly evaporate. All of this vote fraud and republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much stronger candidate than he really is. YOUNG PEOPLE. DON’T BE DUPED! Think about it. You have the most to lose.

    The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. I suggest a Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama ticket now! Everyone needs to throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.

    I think Barack Obama has a once in a life time chance to make the ultimate historic gesture for unity, and change in America by accepting Hillary Clinton’s offer as running mate. Such an act now would for ever seal Barack Obama’s place at the top of the list of Americas all time great leaders, and unifiers for all of history. But the time to act is soon.

    The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and caucuses.

    Fortunately the Clinton’s have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic comebacks of Hillary Clinton’s. Only the Clinton’s are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen.

    “This is not a game” (Hillary Clinton)

    Sincerely

    jacksmith…

  • Somebody the other day was asking about the disappearance of the Ron Paul nuts.
    I think they’ve regrouped as supposed Clinton supporters…

  • “My only hope is that she cannot win this way, and Obama is better for it.”

    It hadn’t hit me until today that this is really what’s going on. Hillary’s campaign can’t destroy the democratic party all by itself. Obama is being challenged to grow “presidential” in a way that few have been tested. If he can stay engaged and honorable the only one who is diminished by Hillary’s acts is herself.

    There is his challenge.

  • I think they’ve regrouped as supposed Clinton supporters…

    Jacksmith, for one, seems to know jackshit.

  • Obama and his supporters make the same claim, that he would be better against McCain. They have no clue how the media will chew him up when Hillary is out of the way. And he is much more vulnerable. He promises to unite the country and reform campaign finance, which is pure fantasy. He says his supporters would not vote for Hillary in the ge, which is idiotic. Michelle says she would have to think about that, which is insulting to the party. He ducks his Senate responsibilities, recites the liberal wish list, and adopts a few Clinton policies. And you think he’s qualified to create and pass a national legislative agenda.
    It’s been sad to watch his supporters dance around the issues with rhetorical tricks. But the record speaks loud and clear. The Clinton’s are the greatest policy experts of our time with a spectacular governing record a mile long.
    It’s obvious why the msm supports Obama for now. If they can’t have another puppet, they’ll settle for someone weak and naive.

  • I have lost all respect for the Clintons. They will do anything and stoop to any
    level to win this election. They have greatly damaged the Democratic Party,
    but they do not care. All they want to do is win the primary, which will be
    a diaster, as Hillary will not be elected.
    Thats why the Rush’s etc are pushing people to vote for Hillary, as they
    know she cannot win. They had many enemies before but that has increased
    due to their tactics.
    Barack is our only answer.

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