The perceptions that feed an ‘honesty gap’

According to the latest Gallup poll, Hillary Clinton has a veracity problem.

Hillary Clinton is rated as “honest and trustworthy” by 44% of Americans, far fewer than say this about John McCain (67%) and Barack Obama (63%).

More specifically, when respondents were asked about the candidates’ honesty and trustworthiness, McCain did very well (67%-27% in his favor), Obama did nearly as well (63%-29% in his favor), while Clinton fared poorly (44%-53% against her).

Worse, Gallup offers some sense of trend-lines, which show the numbers going in the wrong direction. Way back in 1994, the then-First Lady was perceived as generally honest and trustworthy (56%-36% in her favor). In 2005, then-Sen. Clinton fared about as well (53%-43% in her favor). Now, a majority side against her on the issue, leading Gallup to point to a so-called “honesty gap.”

To be sure, all the usual caveats apply (it’s only one poll, the election is still far off, etc.), but I can’t quite figure out why Clinton fares so poorly on this question. I know all the textbook attacks on Hillary’s personal qualities and character traits, but since when do people consider her dishonest? What has she lied about?

Indeed, very little of the campaign thus far has focused on Clinton’s sincerity (or the perception of the lack thereof). Off the top of my head, the usual, conventional knocks on her are that she’ll “do anything to win,” her foreign policy vision is too far to the right, she’s an “agent of the status quo,” she’s “divisive,” and after two terms of a Clinton presidency, Hillary is “part of the past.” They’ve practically become cliches.

But does anyone go around questioning Hillary Clinton’s veracity?

I really can’t think of any obvious whoppers that have captured any attention at all lately. She appears to have exaggerated her foreign policy background a bit, but not that much. So what’s up with these numbers?

It’s probably a stretch, but the only thing I can think of is that the Clinton campaign’s aggressive criticisms of Obama, some of which have been a little sketchy, have driven up her negatives among some Dems, bringing her overall “honest and trustworthy” numbers down.
The latest CBS News poll (pdf), for example, asked about whether the Democratic candidates had attacked each other unfairly. The results showed that 23% of Dems nationally felt Clinton had attacked Obama unfairly, while only 1% of Dems said Obama had attacked Clinton unfairly.

Maybe that’s contributing to the impression, maybe not. All I know is that Clinton has been far more honest and trustworthy than McCain’s been in this campaign, and yet, she’s trailing him on this issue by a whopping 23 points.

Not surprisingly, the Obama campaign’s David Plouffe welcomed the numbers.

“It will be next to impossible to win a general election if more than half of the people think that you are not trustworthy,” he said, after citing Clinton’s poor, sub-50-percent Gallup rating on honesty and trustworthiness.

Plouffe cited “a real character gap” and “real issues if she’s going to be our nominee.”

“Sen. Clinton will have a narrow playing field, in terms of the states she can put in play, and she does have this issue around trustworthiness that will give her no margin for error,” he said. “It’s hard to alleviate that if you continually engage in this misleading of voters.”

That, of course, is about what we’d expect Obama’s campaign manager to say, but the point is nevertheless important. Clinton should probably do more to bring up these numbers — though I haven’t the foggiest idea how — if for no other reason because superdelegates may pause before backing a candidate that most Americans don’t trust.

In part, you can thank Obama for playing on Republican smears of Clinton as reason for us to believe she is unelectable, which was exactly what he was doing over the summer and right up through the primary season.

Those numbers will change, as polls generally do, especially once she has secured the nomination and the rank and file democrats fall in behind her.

  • Obama hasn’t said anything negative about Hillary that I have heard or read, Greg. My guess is that it’s the trustworthy part rather than the honesty part that is her problem. Doing anything to win, which is one of the MEMES against her plays directly to the trustworthiness issue. You can’t trust someone who “will do anything to win”.

  • This is a drum the Obama camp has been beating. He has questioned her role in NAFTA, her experience handling foreign crises, her role in supporting Bush to go to war with Iraq, and her refusal to disclose her tax returns. She may also be the victim of guilt by association since the press painted President Clinton as a serial liar. Unfortunately for Senator Clinton, the revelations of the past week have not supported her stories on NAFTA and being intimately involved with foreign crises.

  • Well, she was dishonest about her support of NAFTA, and her campaign’s been trying to make mountains out of the molehills in Obama’s campiagn for months. She’s made her own bed. What I want to know is: Why do people think McCain is so g-damned trustworthy? He’s like the wind, and not in the “Patrick Swayze wants to sleep with you” way, either.

  • He’s like the wind, and not in the “Patrick Swayze wants to sleep with you” way, either.

    Line of the day, right there.

  • Obama hasn’t said anything negative about Hillary that I have heard or read, Greg. – Always Hopeful

    No, he’s above that… he will bring a “new kind of politics” to Washington, right? Just because he says so, doesn’t make it so, especially considering his own credibility problems.

    I guess his surrogates and campaign personnell don’t have to abide by his rules though, right?

  • A few months ago, even a few weeks, I would have been surprised by these numbers. But I’ve become quite dismayed at Hillary over a number of issues (such as building up McCain’s national security creds). And now, she is clearly using the Wright controversy to her supposed advantage, rather than taking the high ground and calling the whole issue out for what it is. In this campaign, she just never seems to make the morally right decisions, as a Democrat with a firm belief in progressive values. Instead, she consistently seems to take the politically expedient course – even when that course is actually politically counterproductive in the longer term.

    I’ve gone from strongly supporting her for many years to actually disliking and mistrusting her, all in the span of a few months. I would never have imagined that transformation in my opinion would be possible. And that transformation has happened due to specific actions by Clinton and her campaign, not due to unthinking support for Obama.

    If she is the nominee, I’ll still vote for her over McCain. But no longer with enthusiasm.

  • wvng @ 7
    Why is it up to Hillary to speak on the Wright controversy to bail Obama out?

  • What has she lied about?

    I find lies posted everywhere. Maybe I should start collecting them into a file.
    Here’s a recent one posted on a nearby thread that comes from the wikepedia:

    Clinton has been criticized for not giving credit to a ghostwriter in connection with It Takes a Village. The majority of the book was reportedly written by ghostwriter Barbara Feinman.[8] When the book was first announced in April 1995, The New York Times reported publisher Simon & Schuster as saying “The book will actually be written by Barbara Feinman, a journalism professor at Georgetown University in Washington. Ms. Feinman will conduct a series of interviews with Mrs. Clinton, who will help edit the resulting text.”[9] Feinman spent seven months on the project and was paid $120,000 for her work.[10] Feinman, however, was not mentioned anywhere in the book.

    She no more wrote that book than she has 35 years of experience. These sort of things insult people and give her a deserved bad rap.

  • There *are* those of us who, through years of observation and reinforcement, consider ourselves good judges of character. Before the campaign, I always felt she came across as cold and calculating (I never felt this way about Bill). I put this out of my mind thinking that I’d allowed myself to become a victim of anti-Clinton rhetoric because I could never put a finger on just what it was that I didn’t trust about her.

    After caucusing with Clinton supporters, after watching her campaign, and after reading posts like the one from Greg above, I now have zero “trust” for Hillary Clinton and little respect for most of the people supporting her.

    People like Greg seem to be just as blind to facts and hypocrisy as your run-of-the-mill Republican… how he can sit there and claim that Obama is running a smear campaign anywhere near on par with that of Clintons; let alone, the “pots to kettles” irony of it all.

    Then, he segues into when “she has secured the nomination” like a pugnacious and over-confident football fan.

    I’ve about resigned myself to the fact that we’re living in a dream world to think we’re going to have anything less than another fascist in the WH; whether that fascist is McCain or Hillary Clinton… the decline will continue just like the war.

  • Slappymagoo is spot on…what is it with rethugs and mc-lame supporters? Do they like to be lied to? Did something happen to them in their childhood to hideously scar them psychologically? What needs to be done is highlight mc-lames lies, half-truths and just plain pre-diagnosed alzheimer fantasies and bring his numbers down. The MSM has a huge part in this myth and need to be reminded of what the meaning of news and facts are too. Let’s bring his numbers down to a realistic number, like, say -67% and remember we are all democrats, so stop tearing each other down!

  • Kropotkin is wrong. Support for Clinton’s role in resolving the Irish conflict, for example, was provided in explicit statements by George Mitchell, Gerry Adams and by British negotiators (name forgotten), independently of each other. Similar support has been provided in explicit statements with respect to her involvement in talks in other European negotiations (beyond courtesy visits as First Lady). Ignoring these first-hand supportive statements is an example of the attempts of Obama supporters to perpetuate a meme that she has inflated her experience.

    When people repeat over and over that Clinton lies, what do you expect polls to show? There has been a lot of complaining that Obama’s Fall campaign might be damaged by Democratic in-fighting. This is an example of how Obama’s campaigning against Clinton might damage her chances if she were to become the Fall nominee instead of Obama (who seems to be self-destructing).

    Listening to one of the Air American hosts this past week, I heard guests interviewed about how Clinton supposedly lied during the Whitewater hearings but there was insufficient evidence to charge her with perjury. This opposite meme that she was not actually exonerated by the hearings (as she was) but that there just wasn’t the will to prosecute her for her lies is part of what is damaging her. I saw no unwillingness of anyone to go after the Clintons for the smallest of infractions, so this meme, like the others is empty.

    I have nothing but disgust that any Democrat would perpetuate this sort of stuff, but I am also seeing that many, if not most, Obama supporters will do anything, no matter how damaging to Democratic prospects, to give their candidate the nomination. If that is wrong when Clinton is accused of it, it is wrong when Obama people do it.

    On the other hand, Obama lied about knowing the content of Wright’s political sermons. If both of our Democratic candidates turn out to be big fat liars, how will that help our party win in the Fall?

  • It’s probably a stretch, but the only thing I can think of is that the Clinton campaign’s aggressive criticisms of Obama, some of which have been a little sketchy

    That’s not a stretch, that’s exactly it – like when she attacks Obama on the issue of military contractors in PA townhalls – she obviously HAS to know that Obama is on the right side of that issue…

  • Greg #8. It’s not up to her to bail Obama out. It is up to her, as a leading Democrat (the party of civil rights), to further the opportunity that Obama provided on Tuesday to elevate the discussion of race in this country and utterly disown the hateful stereotypes that drag us all down. She chose not to take the high road for short term political advantage, rather than display leadership on an issue that Dems own.

  • I am not a Clinton hater but confusion about why she should be attacked as untrustworthy seems disingenuous to me.

    First : The American people have doubts about the ‘truth’ of the 35 years of experience — therefore, since she inflates her credentials, you can’t trust her. Most people I know have the same response to this claim, which is “oh jeez, come off it” HIllary Clinton : Legend/Senior administration official in her own mind.

    Second : I trust you, CB, have seen Clinton arguing that black is white (my Jesuit instructors would be proud) referring to the agreements about Florida and Michigan. Last fall she says that not taking her name off the Michigan ballot is OK because it’s not going to count anyway (and she signs a pledge agreeing to this) and now we see her on TV saying that (because it aids her) these states MUST count.

    I don’t mind people supporting Clinton at all but to pretend that you can’t understand or don’t see why people don’t trust her — well that’s just not a credible stance.

  • Assuming the numbers CB cites are true, I would offer the following::
    Political honesty and trustworthiness are not mere matters of veracity. It also involves perceptions of integrity.

    Senator Clinton is politically joined at the hip with her husband – a person who proved in very public ways his williness to parse language to be technically truthful while telling what most people would judge to be lies in the scheme of things. Bill Clinton did not “have sex with that woman,” and his answer must depend upon the meaning of “is.” Clinton is also famous (fairly or not) for leading everyone to believe he agrees with them, when he in fact does not. Charm? Dishonesty? Hard to know. Hard to trust. Some people consider Bill Clinton a liar; I will grant that I believe him to be at best a fibber. Fibbers do not get my trust nor a nod for honesty. Hillary Clinton is connected inextricably to Bill Clinton. She thinks this is a net win for her, and perhaps it is. But, it brings its negatives, as well, and I thing honesty as I like to define it, as I evaluate the trustworthiness of others, is one of those places where I trust Clinton less than I might otherwise.

    Also, the implications of the “will do anything to win” implies some basic dishonesty and lack of integrity. To me, it does not simply imply that Senator Clinton is willing to ferociously attack opponents. It implies she would do so with half-truths and lies. It implies that she would tell me anything to get my vote, whether she meant it or not. It implies she is willing to cheat or go back on her word (FL, MI, anyone?). For me, these go to core elements of honesty. The “will do anything to win” meme may be a meme, but some – myself included – believe there are – at minimum – kernals of truth in that meme.

    Finally, Senator Clinton embodies a contradiction, IMO, that is curious indeed. She is a strong, intelligent, driven woman, And yet, she has remained steadfastly loyal and married to a man who has betrayed her in a public way and perhaps numerous times. She has stood by that man, even if she did not bake any cookies. I choose to believe that she actually loves Bill Clinton and has decided to forgive him and continue life with him into old age. But others see calculation wedded to ambition that demands an facade that is false. Again, I think this works against the Senator’s honesty / trustworthiness / integrity ratings.


  • Greg: Why is it up to Hillary to speak on the Wright controversy to bail Obama out?

    Why is it up to Obama to act against his own political interests and defend accusations that Geraldine Farraro is a racist? Of course, the cynic will merely point out that his handling over the matter was in his best interest since he’s “above it all”.

    But isn’t it better to have leaders who at least pretend to have some modicum of character, than ones who simply take the low road without a moment’s hesitation (and I happen to think Obama’s character just *might* be genuine)?

  • Nice to see all the Obama trolls are alive and well today. Sit back and relax grab another latte and take your pills.

  • Greg #6: I notice that you don’t actually have an answer to Hopeful’s counterpoint. You haven’t shown any case where Obama has engaged in lies and smears. Instead, you spew a load of empty sarcasm and then change the subject from Obama to Obama supporters.

    Little wonder everyone here thinks you are nothing but a troll without credibility.

  • Comebackbill, Greg and Mary need there own blog. This one clearly isn’t doing it for them. Isn’t there a pro hillary blog you can goto if all us trolls got ya down.

  • Count me among the distrustful.

    Can I trust someone who trusted Bush on Iraq for all the wrong reasons?

    Also, the Clintons mastered one of the worst deceits in Washington — stonewalling. The requested information always seems to be coming … later. We can infer dishonesty just as much by what is not said as by what is said.

    I am distrustful of dynasties and the dynasty issue really clouds my ability to judge Hillary as an individual. I am also distrustful of political actors aspiring to be among the the elite of the elites. In my view of class, the Clintons fall within this category, and this continues to be a major factor contributing to their controversies and scandals.

    It may not be entirely logical or explainable but judgements of character seldom are.

    Basically, I distrust just about all politicians.

  • Mary @ 14
    I am also seeing that many, if not most, Obama supporters will do anything, no matter how damaging to Democratic prospects, to give their candidate the nomination

    Most of us would never say John McCain was worthier of teh Oval Office.

    Unless she truly believes that…

    That would bother me more than my current theory that she’s merely Machiavellian. (and therefore, untrustworthy.)

  • This does not speak well of the voting public. No matter how much Obama supporters here dislike her, I just think it is objective fact that McCain has said more things in his political life that are demonstrably untrue or has totally reversed his stated position for political expediency, scores more times than Clinton has.

    There really is no defensible explanation for the numbers; about the only possibilites are (a) years of right wing lies have taken their unfortunate but intended toll; (b) this was really just taken by the polled as a proxy for political support, and the Obama and McCain folks voted her down; (c) latent, blatent sexism; or (d) that the nastiness of this nomination race has worked both ways and the virulent slams of Obama supporters has “corroded” (wasn’t that yesterday’s term?) perception of Clinton. (I suppose “all of the above” should not be ruled out.)

    But it should scare the hell out of the Obama supporters that McCain beats him as well. Obama will not fare well in November if the pool of people voting is really this stupid. Obama is all about nuance (especially in his race speech); America twice elected a guy who bragged “I don’t do nuance.” Whether she drops out or not, y’all need to stop thinking of Clinton as the enemy. There are bigger problems out there.

  • Greg, did you even read that article? What exactly was supposed to be so damning in there?

    Was it where it describes Obama’s religious tradition as “part of a liberal, mostly white denomination that was the first in America to ordain gays, women and blacks as ministers”?

    Or where it says: “But in the early 1980s, when the U.S. government considered Mandela’s anti-Apartheid African National Congress a terrorist organization because of its support from communists and use of violence, Trinity became one of the first U.S. churches to support the group”?

    Or where Rev. James Cone explains black liberation theology? “He argued early on the imperative of supporting women’s rights and gay rights. He’s said that environmentalism and fighting racism should go hand in hand, as minorities and Third World nations are affected disproportionately by pollution and the environmental costs of capitalism. Civil rights, black liberation and helping the oppressed all share the same values, he said. “When the Berlin Wall came down, they were saying, ‘We shall overcome.’ In Tiananmen Square, they were saying, ‘We shall overcome.’ “”

    Supportive of Mandela’s ANC and the anti-communists in East Germany and China, liberal on issues of women’s rights and gay rights, fighting for environmental causes, and engaged in helping the people of Third World countries? Oooooh, that is scary.

  • Deep down, every Democrat in this country knows that Senator Clinton’s Iraq War vote was a politically expedient one made to burnish her credentials as future commander-in-chief. Clinton lied about the most important decision in her career and everyone knows it.

    Take a hike, Hillary.

  • But does anyone go around questioning Hillary Clinton’s veracity?

    Kosovo, Ireland peace talks, Nafta, “I found my voice”, “I wake up every morning thinking about you”, voted for AUMF to ensure weapons searches, fully vetted, releasing First Lady records as quickly as we can, can’t release tax returns until April because I’ve been too busy with the campaign, didn’t campaign in Florida or Michigan, Obama can’t win blue states, Obama has changed position on Nafta/Canada and ending the war in Iraq.

    Do you prefer the word “insincere”?

  • Sorry, Comeback Bill posted that article, not Greg. So hard to tell the difference sometimes….

  • She didn’t blame Obama for the breach of her files, however, unlike his people did.

  • Geez, do you think 40,000 evidence-challenged HRC-bashing columns from the likes of Dowd, Rich, Collins, Meyerson, and other so-called liberals has anything to do with the way people see HRC? Not to mention years of “news” reports about cherry-picked trivia that are rife with innuendo and baseless speculation about HRC’s motives for sitting rather than standing, wearing yellow rather than red, frowning here, smiling there, clapping or laughing or saying or not saying this or that?

    Politicians routinely try to control the way they are covered by the media — so of course there are times when HRC, like any other politician, does this. And HRC is not my favorite candidate — I didn’t vote for her in the primary and I have a lot of problems with her hawkishness. But she’s no more calculating or untrustworthy or ambitious than any other politician on the national level — Obama included.

    I don’t like it when HRC lends credence to the notion that McCain has “experience.” It’s also unfortunate when Obama and/or his supporters lend credence to tired old media attacks on the Clintons — attacks that echo Limbaugh et al. HRC and Obama (and their supporters, and the liberal commentariat) should be going out of their way to avoid echoing RNC talking points.

  • Nor did she vote”present” or simply not appear for potentially politically controversial votesd as her opponent did

  • Comebackbill, Greg and Mary need there own blog.

    They could call it “Two Guys, a Girl and a Pity Place.”

  • I’d rather have someone who’s willing to take a stance and stand by it. than someone who can’t decide or is afraid to commit for fear of political consequences.


  • Comeback Bill: Here is a great example of Obams trustworthiness:

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/31079.html

    Read this and then tell me that for 20 years he used good judgement or has good character.

    I read this (not to mention that I have heard it over and over and over from the media), and I more than ever, do not trust you.

    I went to a church for years that believed in only voting Republican, that believed homosexuality is a choice, evolution was a lie and that refused to allow the marriage of black men to white women.

    Lord knows, I wouldn’t want to be held responsible for their stupidity. To my credit, I left that church (and all others, FTM) but many people I love and respect still attend Sunday after Sunday because they are emotionally attached to it and are scared to death that they’ll burn in hell for all eternity if they don’t!

    As for all the conspiracy theories, you might just believe some of them too if you were black and heard them repeated to you all your life.

    And Jesus… black? Gasp! :oO

  • Nor did she vote”present” or simply not appear for potentially politically controversial votesd as her opponent did

    She skipped the FISA vote in February, even though she was in D.C.
    http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/12/171310/314

    If you’re going to complain that Obama voted “present” in the Illinois legislature — and reveal you know nothing about Illinois politics in the process — then you might get worked up about Hillary Clinton missing the single-most important Senate vote of the last session.

  • Marc Pencil #26. Thank you. As deeply frustrated as I am with Hillary, and as deeply disappointed as I am that I now view her with distrust – she is still vastly better than McCain. And the McCain trust numbers are a huge reason for concern. But slamming back on Hillary, she gave him cover on national security that was inexcusable. Both she and Obama need to be actively attacking him, dragging his positives down, at every opportunity. Obama clearly gets it, but Hillary seems stuck in “the now.” The msm won’t scrutinize McCain if the Dems don’t force them to.

  • For my part, I’m one who thinks Hillary is less than honest. But I don’t suspect her of Bush-like whoppers. I think she’s not honest about what she thinks, and is so calculating about political stuff that it divorces her statements from the straight truth. For instance, I don’t believe she was genuinely outraged at Obama’s Ohio flyer about NAFTA; I think that was calculated political outrage with no sincerity behind it.

    So, yeah, it’s possible to think that she’s cynical and insincere and therefore dishonest, in a way, without thinking she’s a huge liar like Bush or Cheney.

  • Simple. The Clinton rules.
    She’s painted red by the right wing, and she’s forever red. Period.
    Damn I wish America was smarter.

  • Um…er…I think I am about to agree with Greg (a little) …gaaahh my brain is imploding! 😉 Seriously though, to say that the Obama campaign has never said anything negative about Clinton is just a tad of an overstatement.

    On the other hand, I DO agree, that on the whole Obama has tried to focus on unity and positivity as much as any presidential campaign can. It is inevitible, however, that the candidates will point out differences in order to distinguish themselves and sometimes those points will ring true and sometimes they won’t.

    I still think the Clinton campaign has been far more aggressive in flinging crap and seeing what sticks.

  • I don’t trust anyone who thinks McCain has a lifetime of experience and has passed the CIC test, least of all those who identify as a Democrat.

    I don’t trust people who employ people like Penn, who is blatantly dishonest, and Ickes who thinks he can have Michigan and Florida both ways.

    I don’t trust people who hide their tax returns from the public after demanding their previous opponent release theirs. I don’t trust someone who claims experience from a tenure as First Lady, but requires a FOI request to turn over heavily redacted records.

    But I see no reason not to trust Clinton. None at all.

  • Rick: They’re not here to find agreement or common ground. They’re here to keep you off message and drag you down. Flip right through their posts, it’s not worth the read or the energy responding.

    On a more positive note: A big “attaboy” for Bill Richardson!! It’s about freakin’ time.

    Shout out for JRE: time to get your lilywhite ass off the fence and get on the bus!

    Si Se Puede! Si Se Puede! Si Se Puede! Si Se Puede!

  • Re Nell #40 and “The Clinton rules.” You are absolutely right that this is a big part of it, but it isn’t the only part. She lost my active support and my trust, very recently, through blatantly dishonest actions on her part during the campaign. And I am far from alone.

  • Clinton was against NAFTA http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/27/234248/348

    Both McSame and Clinton have more experience than Obama. To blow her claims and her nod to McSame up into a credibility issue needs a good sprinkling of hate.

    Obama ended hopes of a MI revote. This ok with you guys?

    The guys throwing the most crap have a right wing agenda. We should not emulate them.

    Mark Pencil
    Bravo, well said.

  • wvng
    I see this said over and over without credible links
    You want to change somebody’s mind? Provide documentation!

  • I don’t think she’s a liar and a crook, but to anyone who has ever participated or even watched competitive sports, her attempts to change the rules in the Florida and Michigan primaries just look like cheating. That’s gonna reduce anyone’s “honest and trustworthy” rating.

  • Obama ended hopes of a MI revote. This ok with you guys?

    Actually, yes. It’s perfectly fine by me.

    Even though I think Obama would’ve done well in Michigan and likely won — the last March poll had them tied 41-41 with him trending up — I still think a revote was a horrible idea both there and in Florida.

    If we’re going to have any kind of discipline and order in the nominating process, then there needs to be a penalty for states that violate the agreed-upon DNC rules. Otherwise, we’d have a constant leapfrogging as each state moved past the others in a bid to be earlier than the others, and total chaos. Dean had to lay down the law and enforce some order on the party, and that’s what happened.

    Frankly, I found the Clinton campaign to get a revote in Michigan to be both crude (“What’s Obama afraid of?” Hillary said yesterday) and hypocritical (Ickes, her aide, was one of the ones who set these rules down in the beginning, let’s remember). Moreover, she’s saying that a nominee who gets elected without MI or FL contests is illegitimate now, even after she knows the Mich. leg. has adjourned and no MI do-over will happen. That’s just poison for the party, and she knows it.

  • TR
    Check Obama’s record in the U. S. Senate. The no-shows are numerous. And some pretty significant votes, too. You are the one who isn’t facing the truth.

  • TR
    I disagree. state congression leadership in MI and FL broke the rules. The voters are victims. Both states are swing states, and we just alienated the voters there.

  • Do you honestly think that the Cheneys of this world are going to sit down and negotiate.
    Recall his response to being reminded that the Iraq War is not popular with the American people? His response: “So?” Good luck with that.

  • Clinton has been reasonably honest in a good-cop bad-cop sort of way but her CAMPAIGN has been dishonest and misleading since they started to have a serious challenger in the primary. That is the honesty-gap because after patterns of behavior emerge in a campaign, eventually the head has to be held accountable.

    A big part of this is also Penn’s often transparent spin.

  • state congression leadership in MI and FL broke the rules. The voters are victims. Both states are swing states, and we just alienated the voters there. -Nell

    I fail to see how the collective ‘we’ is to blame for the actions of two state legislatures, one of which is always at the epicenter of election nightmares.

    I whole heartedly agree the voters were done a disservice, but I hold no illusions about who is to blame for it, and I will support with money any primary candidate in those states who runs on this issue.

  • TR: Check Obama’s record in the U. S. Senate. The no-shows are numerous. And some pretty significant votes, too. You are the one who isn’t facing the truth.

    Did I ever say no-shows were the standard by which a candidate should be judged? No.

    You’re the one who implied missing votes was a mortal sin. You’re the one who said: “I’d rather have someone who’s willing to take a stance and stand by it. than someone who can’t decide or is afraid to commit for fear of political consequences.”

    I pointed out that Hillary failed the test you set up as your own standard. I never said Obama passed it.

  • I think three things are going on here. First there is the underlying sexist, double-standard that women candidates face: ambition in women is less respected and more distrusted than it is in men. Second, like her husband, Clinton has a history of political posturing, parsing language, shifting policy positions and triangulating, making it often hard for many (including me) to understand what she truly stands for other than herself. Finally, ever since she lost her leading contender status in the presidential race, the intensification of her win-at-all-cost campaign has highlighted her ambition and posturing in the worst sort of way.
    I leave it to numerous posts on numerous threads here and elsewhere to exlain why many believe she postures, parses, triangulates and wants to win at all costs more than most politicians (which of course is saying a lot). BTW, I did not initially support Obama and support him now only with a good deal of hesitation and weariness of many of his most ardent supporters, who seem to think he can walk on water.

  • “…his most ardent supporters, who seem to think he can walk on water.”

    Wrong, openroadster! I’m only hoping he’ll “part” the waters… 😛

  • Nitpicking and intellectually dishonest. The implication was there.

    Perhaps in your own fevered imagination. But read again what I wrote in its entirety:

    She skipped the FISA vote in February, even though she was in D.C.
    http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/12/171310/314

    If you’re going to complain that Obama voted “present” in the Illinois legislature — and reveal you know nothing about Illinois politics in the process — then you might get worked up about Hillary Clinton missing the single-most important Senate vote of the last session

    You claimed casting votes and not ducking the tough issues was the gold standard for a candidate, and I pointed out that your own candidate has demonstrably proven to have failed to meet the very standard you yourself laid out.

    Nowhere there did I claim Obama had won the congressional ribbon for Best Attendance Record or refute the idea that he had missed any votes in his tenures in either the U.S. Senate or the Illinois Senate.

    What exactly is “intellectually dishonest” about holding you to your own standards? You want intellectual dishonesty, look in the mirror — you’ll find someone who insists that what should cook Obama’s goose is not applicable for Hillary’s gander.

  • Obama is no different than any politician. He will say and do whatever he needs to to win the nomination. If he does, he has no chance of winning the general election – in my opinion, simply will not happen.

    Hillary never lied about NAFTA – you Hillary haters will believe anything negative about her than Obama’s camp puts out. She was against NAFTA in all the meetings she attended leading up to the bill’s passage. She PUBLICALLY supported NAFTA because he was her hunband’s initiative and as First Lady what other possible choice could she have made.

    I marvel at the Obama supporters who beleive he is something new, something different. Now we have Richardson – you know, the guy Clinton appointed to be US Ambassador to the UN – so much for loyaty – saying that Obama is a once-in-a-lifetime ‘great’ leader. Greatness can only be judged through the prism of history. At this point, I even question Obama’s loyalty to the USA.

    Hillary’08

  • At this point, I even question Obama’s loyalty to the USA: Hillary’08

    There’s a nice bumper sticker for you. Really sums up the tone of the campaign.

  • Comeback Bill (#20),

    I read the article. Yes, to answer your question. On the whole I do think Obama has used good judgement. This article rightly points out both poisitives and negatives of the type of “black theology” expressed at the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, Barack Obama’s church.

    True, some of the ideas are extreme, but to me it illustrates that those ideas are to the left of Barack Obama, that the man himself is more tempered in his world view. To me, Obama has made it clear that he advocates bringing people together and listening to many ideas.

    If you were hoping that this McClatchy article would paint Obama as some kind of radical, then you missed the mark. What it said to me was that Wright and his mentor, Cone have a strong desire to improve the lives of the black community in relation to the entire population and that this impulse led them to some extreme views. But it also clearly says to me that Obama is his own man and does not share the more extreme views.

  • The whole Clinton arguement about FL and MI stinks. First she agrees to the DNC rules (probably because she thought this whole thing would be over after Super Tuesday) and now she is screaming about disenfranchisement. Come on….does anyone here honestly think she would be making this stink if Super Tuesday had gone her way and she had the lead in delegates and popular vote?

    Not a chance.

    On this issue Obama is on solid ground. The rules were set ahead of time and FL and MI chose to violate those rules. Would I support a re-vote if one could be managed that was truly fair? Absolutely. The problem is, it is nearly impossible to have a fair re-vote. Too many people, in MI at least, who might have voted for a Democrat, instead voted Republican because they knew the Democratic primary did not count. And those voters will not be allowed to re-vote.

    Demanding a re-vote now is like that old epesode of the original Star Trek when Captain Kirk tricks those gangsters in a game of cards by adding rules as the game progresses.

  • Well she lied about her experience so perhaps the poll is catching some of that fallout.


  • Will K.: … you Hillary haters will believe anything negative about

    This kind of ridiculous rhetoric doesn’t exactly assuage perceptions that Hillary and her supporters may have begun to resemble the brain-washed sheep that consitute the Republican Base.

    “Hillary haters”? Where have we heard something like that before?

    I DO NOT HATE HILLARY. Just because I don’t trust her, don’t believe her tears were real, think she acted like a cornered animal during Obama’s winning streak, and am profoundly disappointed both with her vote to authorize the Iraq war *then*, and her inability to accept responsibility for that enormous failure in judgment… doesn’t mean I “hate” her.

    Enough of the crazy talk!

  • I see two obvious reasons. The first is that her “experience” has turned out to include a number of exaggerations and outright lies. Second and probably more important is that everyone can see her hypocrisy from two months of saying Michigan should count even though her opponents weren’t on the ballot, and distrusts her because of it.

  • First, neither candidate can make Michigan revote, or stop us. It is up to the state legislature…where the Republicans are strong. Now, this whole primary moving thing was organized by several Clinton backers in the MDP. What makes anyone think that the Republicans (who lost half of their delegates because of what the Democrats wanted to do) will go for letting the Dems have their cake and eat it too? And then there’s that little matter of pride. For the revote to happen, a bunch of rich Dems would have to pay for it. Barack Obama is not in the Michigan Senate; the Michigan Senate did not take up the measure before their vacation; it’s dead. It has nothing to do with either candidate’s wants or desires.

  • Second, examine some context around NAFTA. It was a rough time for the first Clinton administration, but things were trending up. The Clintons had recently returned from vacation. A series of meetings were held to decide how to progress with the agenda. Three major issues dominated the future: NAFTA, health care, and Reinventing Government. Each was controlled by its own little fiefdom in the administration.

    Authors and journalists have said that Hillary wasn’t for NAFTA, and they said so in the 90’s. But few that i’ve seen have discussed the exact reason. The administration knew that it had created its own problems by trying to do too much at one time. Pushing hard for NAFTA was likely to take energy away from REGO or health care reform. Quite likely, Hillary was not “against” NAFTA so much as she was against NAFTA encroaching on her fiefdom’s spotlight.

    The two are very different, but she can say that she was “against” it without saying why. And people can come out and say, “Yes, Hillary was against NAFTA.”

    It’s not a lie, it just isn’t the truth…and there’s a lot of that with the Clintons, there always has been. And that isn’t the VRWC’s fault. If someone fills a paper bag full of poo, puts it on your porch, lights it on fire, and YOU step on it…it’s still your fault for stepping on it instead of pouring water on it.

    I wouldn’t trust her with a wooden nickel…

  • But does anyone go around questioning Hillary Clinton’s veracity?

    I really can’t think of any obvious whoppers that have captured any attention at all lately. She appears to have exaggerated her foreign policy background a bit, but not that much. So what’s up with these numbers?

    Clinton’s dishonesty has been the major issue of the campaign as far as I’m concerned, and the major reason why so many of us will not vote for Clinton. This campaign has been a series of lies from the Clinton camp. For anyone who needs a reminder, Lawrence Lessig made an excellent video reviewing evidence of Clinton’s dishonesty exposed as of earlier this year. I have both the video and transcript here:

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com//?p=2852

  • We don’t hear enough about Clinton’s dishonesty as far as I am concerned. Instead we hear about Obama’s preacher, how he’s not the one we supposedly don’t want answering the phone at 3 AM, and how any state he wins isn’t big enough or important enough. Hillary and her gang of goons sure know how to control the media. I really wish we heard more about her honesty, then maybe more would question if they want someone so unethical in the White House.

  • There are all kinds of examples of Hillary being less than trustworthy. I could spend hours trying to collate them all, going all the way back to her first Senate run in New York (where she wasn’t even a resident until she decided to run for the Senate in preparation for an eventual White House run), but the most recent one sums it up nicely:

    She says over and over again how she had this horribly dangerous trip to Bosnia, even going so far as to say that the planned welcome committee got skipped so they could duck sniper fire and run for vehicles. Other attendees pop up saying that she’s wrong, and she calls them liars. Then the video of the welcome committee surfaces, complete with the little girl with flowers.

    What’s she going to say now?

    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/03/hillarys_balkan_adventures_par.html
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rich-noyes/2008/03/18/hillary-shot-96-no-media-mention-bosnia-sniper-fire

  • Hillary has gone from “53% think she is honorable” in 2005 to “53% think she is dishonorable” today.

    Some of her negatives are due to sexism, and she has been tarred unfairly by the Republican Slime Machine, too much of which has stuck. She also suffers by association with Bill. However, that’s all old stuff that’s accounted for in the negative perceptions back in 2005. Nothing new has happened on those fronts since then.

    The change is coming from new bad stuff that she and her campaign have done to herself, and it has been mostly innumerable small things that simply add up and refract poorly through her somewhat cold and calculating, ‘whatever it takes to win’ personality. I agree with those who mentioned her NAFTA positions (Will #60, please, she was against it privately before she was for it publically? – that’s supposed to be a defense of her honesty?), and her positions of convenience on Michigan and Florida. Her vote on Iraq was clearly in order to try not to look too soft or unpatriotic, and would be forgivable if she ‘fessed up and didn’t try for endless unbelievable spin (it’s not like most of the other Democrats didn’t do the exact same thing). Her mode of instinctive triangulation also fosters perceptions of insincerity – Obama seems to search instinctively for a common understanding and common ground, whereas Hillary seems to searc instinctively for a statement that will maximize her acceptability. Her insincere and kitchen-sink attacks on Obama, albeit normal enough for politics, also suggest that she will say whatever she thinks might work. Her stooping to Rovian tactics of attacking Obama’s strengths were particularly discouraging (denigrating his speeches, in a speech, and then trying to steal his “yes we can” riff !!). In this campaign she has added calculated political outrage, and apparent week to week decisions about which persona to don for different primaries, and her advisors have been willing to spin any degree of ridiculous nonsense to dismiss unsatisfactory votes and say anything for temporary political advantage. Any of this can be dismissed as politics as usual, but all of it together has been a bit off-putting, and explains my drop in enthusiasm for her honesty. I suspect I’m not alone in this.

    However, I’ll still vote for Hillary if she gets the nomination (albeit with little enthusiasm), because the other side is clearly so much worse. Quite apart from all the issues of Republican fascism, kleptocracy, incompetence, corruption, theocracy, and just general batshit insanity, plus their supreme court nominations (but I repeat myself), the leading republicans are way less honest than Hillary. Cheney lies for practice and on principle, primarily the principle that voters should be treated like mushrooms (kept in the dark and covered with crap), while Bush lies like a 3 year too deep into a web of fibs to find his way back out to sunlight, and Republicans are fine with this. Whatever honesty McCain had after the Keating Five has simply been abraded away in the interim, over the course of too much hugging of conservative preachers, Bush, and Bush policies.

  • Broken record technique. I posted a statement that George Mitchell, Gerry Adams, and the British negotiators all made independent statements supporting Clinton’s role in negotiating peace in Ireland. Then I see a parade of people claiming that Clinton lied about her experience in Ireland.

    I understand that people may not have time to read through all the comments. Sometimes I don’t myself. However, this illustrates why Clinton is perceived as exaggerating her experience. It doesn’t matter how many people support her claims or how much evidence is provided. The meme just keeps being repeated over and over. I’d like to know what more Clinton could provide in support of her claims about Ireland, than the statements of the other people who were there?

    I understand that there may be people who will never be convinced that Clinton did anything worthwhile in her life. If so, just admit it. This isn’t about evidence. It is about undermining Clinton’s claim to more experience than Obama — something that should be obvious to all just on the basis of when they were elected to the Senate. Obama can never have as much experience as Clinton, no matter how much you try to tear down her prior public service.

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