Clinton wants Obama to lose the nomination, not the election

The fact that Hillary Clinton continues to fight on, despite practical hurdles that appear insurmountable, has led some to argue that she’s intentionally trying to undermine Barack Obama’s general-election prospects, possibly to improve her own chances in 2012, or to maintain the Clintons’ collective role as the leaders of the Democratic Party. Either way, the argument goes, if Clinton can’t be the nominee, she intends to make sure Obama can’t be president.

Matt Yglesias has made the case for this argument, at least twice, over the last couple of weeks. Kevin Drum entered the fray over the weekend, calling the argument “crazy,” adding, “Hillary has a long, long history as a partisan animal. She’d no more root for a McCain victory than she would for another attack by al-Qaeda…. And if she gave even a hint of not supporting Obama wholeheartedly during the fall campaign? Not only would she have no future presidential prospects, she’d be lucky to escape being tarred, feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail.”

Jonathan Chait weighed in today and changed the question a bit.

An easier question to answer is, How much does Clinton value her own interests versus those of the Democratic Party? And here the answer is very clear: Clinton is acting as if she doesn’t care about the Democratic Party’s interests at all, except insofar as they coincide with her own. Her continued campaign is significantly damaging Obama’s general election prospects, and this would perhaps be defensible if she had a strong chance at the nomination, but she doesn’t. As Politico recently reported, “One important Clinton adviser estimated to Politico privately that she has no more than a 10 percent chance of winning her race against Barack Obama, an appraisal that was echoed by other operatives.”

To inflict serious damage on the likely nominee in order to pursue a one-in-ten chance of securing the nomination is, ipso facto, an act of extreme selfishness. Whether she sees the damage to Obama’s prospects as a feature or a bug is interesting but beside the point.

Let’s take a minute to unwrap this a bit.

On the first question, I think Kevin’s right and Matt’s wrong. I was deeply frustrated when Clinton started praising John McCain’s experience and commander-in-chief qualifications a couple of weeks ago, but it’s a stretch to look at those unhelpful and counter-productive remarks as evidence of her actually wanting a Republican president in 2009.

As far as I can tell, based on all available evidence, Clinton loves her country and loves her party. She’s been playing hardball for a few months against Obama, and has engaged in some campaign tactics I found more than a little troublesome, but I consider this more evidence of her willingness to do what it takes to get the nomination, not evidence of her trying to sabotage U.S. interests by helping McCain’s candidacy.

As for Chait, I think he may be assuming certain motivations that may or may not exist. He argues, “Clinton is acting as if she doesn’t care about the Democratic Party’s interests at all, except insofar as they coincide with her own.” That very well may be — I’m not in a position to say for sure — but here’s a different angle to consider: isn’t it at least possible that Clinton is acting in such a way to help the Democratic Party as she sees it?

In other words, at Clinton HQ right now, a team of advisors are likely thinking, “If Obama’s the nominee, Democrats lose. We may be the only ones who realize it, and we may only have a 10% shot, but we need to keep fighting, keep tearing Obama down, and keep this damaging process going in order to save the party and protect the party’s interests.”

This isn’t to say this perspective is right — indeed, I’m pretty sure it’s ridiculous — but it’s also likely a mistake to assume nefarious motives. Clinton thinks she’s the only candidate standing between us and a third term of Bush policies. From her perspective, her interests and the party’s interests are one and the same.

Given the landscape, I’m fairly certain she’s mistaken. But if there’s solid evidence that she’s actively working towards helping Republicans, I haven’t seen it. The Clinton campaign is probably working under faulty assumptions, not disloyal ones.

Well, the Clintons’ collective record as party champions is not the greatest. Even putting aside the grievous congressional losses on Bad Bad Billy’s watch, and the well-documented greater emphasis placed within the White House on her 2000 Senate campaign compared to Gore’s presidential run, Hillary has become notorious for her all-take, no-give approach to local and state Democratic Party-building activities. At this point it should be clear that they’re the America-for-Clintons Party

Obama, by contrast, has been a very active surrogate and speaker for Democratic candidates pretty much everywhere. This, in combination with how crapped-upon many Dems felt by the Clintons over the last 16 years, probably explains the surprisingly high level of institutional support he’s enjoyed against the once-prohibitive favorite for the nomination.

  • Hillary does not have a hope in hell of becoming the nominee. Why don’t the Senior Democrats put an end to this?

  • It may also be that everything the Clinton Campaign has done to promote the electibility issue in favor of their candidate is simply taken as tearing down Senator Obama by his campaign.

    I think Hillary Clinton has worked pretty hard over the last sixteen years to be ready to run for President, studying hard as a Senator and applying herself in ways other Senators, who regard the Senate has nothing more than a big private club, haven’t. Not everybody agrees that she’s ready, to be sure.

    But I don’t think that is any reason she should replace her opinion on the subject with theirs.

  • So the argument is that the Clinton’s have no sense of reality and that is OK? It’s very reassuring that the Clinton’s know what’s best for the rest of us, I’ll sleep well tonight. The fact that they believe Obama will loose the election is tantamount to supporting McCain and thus undermining their Democratic Party.

  • As someone who was neutral about HRC – insofar as not hating her or being a fan – I am now completely turned off by both Clintons’ behavior in recent months. I had concluded she was a Bush enabler in the Senate, and disagreed with her positions on the war and related matters, but her dirty wrestling match with Obama marks her as contemptible in my book. It’s easy to convince oneself that only “I” can save the world, especially if you read your own press releases and believe them. Who in the Clinton campaign is going to tell her, “You know, Hill, you could do the country a great service and drop out of the race, and campaign like hell for Obama.” She feels entitled and can rationalize that entitlement into “I am the savior the country needs” quite easily.

    That’s what I think is happening. And that’s why McSame will be our next president.

  • shillary is just ANOTHER LYING LIAR and the clintons are just another public face for the criminal cabal that brought us dur chimpfurhrer.

  • Well, of course from Hillary’s perspective, she’s going to view it as her doing the best thing for the Democratic Party. I am an Obama supporter, but even if I wasn’t, I’d be bothered by her statements, those of President Clinton and those of her surrogates. I don’t exactly want to ascribe nefarious motives to Hillary, but the actions coming out of her camp aren’t exactly doing much to help her image and dissuade people from making those assumptions.

  • I would bet that in Dec. 95% of Dems would have said they would vote for whichever one wins the nomination against any of the Rep candidates. Now many are saying they would only vote for one of them. I don’t know how anyone can argue that the Clinton campaign isn’t largely responsible for alienating them one way or the other, especially women. I blame the media more for alienating blacks, who prior to Iowa were largely supporting Clinton, but her campaign has fed the beast.

    I also question the motives of some of her supporters, such as Carville, Ickes, and Penn, but especially three of her Florida moneymen who threatened to demand refunds of contributions from the DNC is Florida delegates are not seated. And just as an aside, one of them, Christopher Korge, has a history as shady as Rezko’s.

  • I’m with Yglesias on this one. I think the mantra at HQ now is more like “There’s always 2012!”

    I wouldn’t hold that viewpoint but for the campaign’s persistent and repeated praise of the Republican opponent, especially in the same breath as denigration of the Democratic opponent.

    Up to that point, it was campaigning. This crossed the line.

    Bill Clinton talks about what good friends McCain and Hillary are, and recently insinuates that Obama is not patriotic.

    Hillary says McCain has a lifetime of experience as opposed to the empty suit that is Obama, and McCain has passed a mythical CIC test (apparently they didn’t ask any questions about the differences between Sunni and Shia), but Obama hasn’t.

    Those are not the words or actions of a Democrat.

  • C.B. The way you have phrased this post i.e. Clinton wants Obama to lose the nomination not the election make little sense. At this point in time in the primary’s the only way the Clinton campaign can possibly win the nomination is for the campaign to create the impression that Obama is damaged goods. If this is correct then that will effectively depress any chances for Obama winning the election.

  • I think it is a BIG stretch to argue that either of the Clintons have the interests of the entire Democratic party at the center of their worldview – it’s the DLC branch that they care about. We know that the DLC has tried to sideline and disempower progressive Democrats since it was founded. And now there is some evidence that the DLC is fostering its own “Southern Strategy” to regain its control of the party:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/22/11161/0526/930/482139 This is a diary of mine by the way, lest anyone argue that I shouldn’t cite anything from Daily Kos to prove an argument against the Clinton machine.

    So I will grant that Steve may be right that in their own bunker-mentality way the Clinton machine might think it has the best interests of the Party at heart – it’s just not the same Democratic party that the rest of us are upholding.

  • I think that Steve’s assessment is the kindest, best-case scenario, “let’s hope that’s what they’re thinking” conclusion, whereas Yglesias is assuming the worst, and Drum has proven too naive and trusting…

    I think it’s somewhere in the middle. They truly believe they are the only ones who can save the party, and they’re willing to burn the village to save it.

    All scenarios are bad news and she needs to be stopped.

  • To little bear at #6 – while you are arguing more or less on my side of the fence, I’ve gotta say that your rhetoric sounds just as offensive as that of any Publican troll, and is probably every bit as effective. You are certainly not helping Senator Obama, or even working in the spirit that he represents, when you sound off like that.

  • Hillary Clinton may not have any reason to try to tear down Obama, but Mark Penn surely does. A Clinton-McCain general election is a win-win deal for Penn, given his own association with the Clintons and the fact that Charlie Black, McCain’s top adviser, is an employee of Penn’s PR firm and the head of their Republican lobbying firm.

    If it’s Clinton-McCain, Penn is making money from both sides of the race and ends up with White House connections in either case. If it’s Obama-McCain, Penn no longer gets to bill Hillary’s campaign ridiculous amounts of money for bad advice, and in the event of an Obama presidency, he loses his White House connections.

    Regardless of where Clinton falls on the issue, it’s pretty safe to say Penn is more worried about himself.

  • Um, do any of you Hillaryhaters see a measure of irony arising from the vitriolic screeds you post on here about her allegedly negative campaign tactics? Do you think you are converting anyone to your side with those comments?

    Glad you’re all so sure the primaries are over. If she follows up Texas and Ohio with a good showing the rest of the way, check back with us then about the inevitability of the result. In the meantime the rest of us can let the primaries play out the way they were scheduled.

  • When Obama lost Ohio she had every right to stay in the race. You cannot compare this to the McCain Huckabee race. Huckabee didn’t concede until McCain reach the necessary number to win the nomination. Neither the Obama or Clinton have the delegate numbers either.

    Don’t blame this on Hillary, blame it on the ridiculous way the Democrats run their primaries and caucuses. The Texas two-step is a farce. Obama won Mississippi with close to 70 pct of the vote yet he only got 4 more delegates than she did. Hillary won Nevada and got one less delegate. Blows your mind!!! And now we have to be concerned about the “super delegates” and how they may play in this election.

    On the other hand, the Republicans did it right. “Winner takes all” in most states. Primaries were closed to Republicans only. Their primaries were efficient, fair and civil. With the way the democrats hold their primaries, I am not sure I want them to run the country.

  • By the way re post 14, I can’t think of a single thing Penn has said that has ever helped the Clinton campaign, and for the life of me cannot figure why reporters even report statements by people like him, except that they are routinely so politically tone-deaf and overreaching that they are unintentionally amusing. He’s our version of Baghdad Bob, the Information Ministry guy on the palace roof telling reporters how Americans are being routed at the border while tanks are rolling in the background the picture.

  • @pfgr She could win out the rest of the way and still be behind in delegates.

    It’s over. She needed to turn this around after Super Tuesday, but like GWB, she doesn’t make contingency plans for when plan A (in her case an inevitable nomination) doesn’t work out.

    She needs to win PA 70-30 to have any kind of shot here. She won’t.

    She also won’t win NC and that’s the real nail in her coffin.

    It’s over.

  • Ditto on Stephen @13.

    To #1, on why the supers don’t want to take action: They risk pissing off a large portion of their constituents, and risk taking a large portion of the blame if something disastrous happens and McCain wins the nomination. They also sort of risk taking blame if the Obama presidency is a bust.

    This, “I want the voters to decide,” seems to be more of an “I’m covering my own ass” kinda thing…

  • The race is close.
    Obama supporters either want HRC out of the race now because they are afraid she’ll eventually get the nomination, or they think it is unseemly for a woman to be competitive.
    The race is close and there are several states that have not yet voted and two swing states that will (probably) not been seated.

    Oh, and did I mention that the race was close? Who’d want a president that caved when the chips were slightly down? Hell, I want a president who never gives up and never gives in.

  • if memory serves, in one of the primary debates richardson was asked a question and perhaps he was lost in his own reverie at that moment, and obama leaned over and whispered something to get him back on track.

    i think richardson didn’t forget that when endorsing obama. for all his years of service to the clintons it was all about making them look good. with obama it’s about making everyone look good.

    and not unlike the mccain ‘misspeaks’, both hillary and bill continue to praise mccain’s CIC worthiness. there’s no mistaking it — they are about consolidating power, not dispersing it, and will force the poison pill down the democrats’ throat if they don’t get it.

    should these hijinx continue and the clintons somehow manage to wrest the nomination via dubious methods, i’m pretty sure i’ll sit out the generals this time around, even tho, as the famous south park episode points out, almost all elections are between a douche bag and a turd sandwich.

  • Clinton thinks she’s the only candidate standing between us a third term of Bush policies. — CB

    It’s very kind and very gentlemanly of you Steve, to put that interpretation on the campaign’s behaviour.. What about the “I don’t care about collateral damage” attitude? How would you talk that away?

    Anyway… At this point, I’m wondering if there’s any kind of thinking at all still going on in that campaign. It begins to look more like trismus – an involuntary lockjaw. She got hold of an idea and can’t let go, even if she wanted to.

  • Hell, I want a president who never gives up and never gives in.

    That’s why John McCain will never leave Iraq.

    Be careful what you wish for.

  • I find the Clinton’s campaigns’ actions over the past few months to be akin to those of a spurned lover. I’m trying to keep it gender-neutral, because Lord knows there are plenty of bat-sh*t crazy husbands AND wives to go around, and petty possessiveness isn’t the domain of either sex. But if the Democratic Party were Hillary’s husband, the prevailing dysfunctional sentiment would be “I love you, but don’t disappoint me and don’t reject me. If I can’t have you, no one will.” It’s not healthy, and the person in question (in this case, Hillary) is essentially holding their spouse (in this case, the Dems) hostage. And one way to mind-f*** with a spouse is to focus attention on the spouse’s rival (in this case, the GOP, and specifically McCain). Why John is so much better than Obama could ever hope to be, don’t we make a nice couple, John? Don’t you think we’d look marvelous together at post-debate photo ops, John? oops, I fell in your arms, John, what will Obama think?

    Well, Obama thinks what so many in the party also think, that a very smart, shrewd, cunning person, who is qualified in so many ways to be President, has let her raw ambition, her desire for this gig outweigh her logic and her morality. People keep talking about how it’s ok to do or say anything to win, that it just proves you want it bad enough. Well, f*** all those people. Wanting something bad enough doesn’t mean you deserve it, and that’s an awful lesson to take away from a Presidential campaign. It’s self-destructive behavior, and party elders should’ve told her to put the kibosh on it long before now. Were I a superdelegate, I wouldn’t be able to imagine voting for her.

  • Amen to pfgr (15) as well!

    The venom coming from a lot of Obama supporters is ridiculous. You’re not bringing anyone over to our side by putting their backs up.

    While you’re screaming about how Hillary has already lost, she’s building leads in PA and WV… Since Clinton is clearly not going to drop out despite the odds against her, stop trying to scream her into submission. All this whining and name calling puts people’s backs up and makes them fight harder.

    Focus, Focus, Focus on the task at hand: strengthening our base, winning primaries, and engaging Hillary (and her supporters) in intelligent and respectful discourse…

  • Um, do any of you Hillaryhaters see a measure of irony arising from the vitriolic screeds you post on here about her allegedly negative campaign tactics? -pfgr

    Can we please (with sugar on top) declare a moratorium on equating blog commenters to campaigns?

    All in agreement? Thanks. πŸ˜‰

  • From [Hillary’s] perspective, her interests and the party’s interests are one in the same.

    Perhaps so. But this would be a sign of delusional Hillary…not the rational person we need in the White house

    No, I don’t believe she’s deliberately trying to hurt Obama in the general. Yes, I do believe that she’s just doing everything possible to win the nomination. Irrelevant.

    Obama is our nominee, and she’s hurting him and the party. As previously stated, “Whether she sees the damage to Obama’s prospects as a feature or a bug is interesting but beside the point.”

  • The Clinton campaign is probably working under faulty assumptions, not disloyal ones.

    Operating under faulty assumptions? Never! That would mean we’re stupid! You calling us stupid?

    Oh yeah, we’re the people who bought Bush’s BS on Iraq AND Iran. And loyalty? who the hell thinks it’s loyal to the party to send an ex president out telling whoppers? Does that help us somehow?

    IMO it almost doesn’t matter anymore what the psychopathic Clintons do. At this point the superdelegates need to do their job. Time to kill the Clintons’ 10% (at best) chance and move on to the general election. And here’s another thing to consider: We’ll know how hard the Clintons pull for Obama only after this ends.

  • to entheo @21:

    Here is the description of the event you reference.

    “I had just been asked a question — I don’t remember which one — and Obama was sitting right next to me. Then the moderator went across the room, I think to Chris Dodd, so I thought I was home free for a while. I wasn’t going to listen to the next question. I was about to say something to Obama when the moderator turned to me and said, ‘So, Gov. Richardson, what do you think of that?’ But I wasn’t paying any attention! I was about to say, ‘Could you repeat the question? I wasn’t listening.’ But I wasn’t about to say I wasn’t listening. I looked at Obama. I was just horrified. And Obama whispered, ‘Katrina. Katrina.’ The question was on Katrina! So I said, ‘On Katrina, my policy . . .’ Obama could have just thrown me under the bus. So I said, ‘Obama, that was good of you to do that.'”

  • The Clinton campaign is probably working under faulty assumptions, not disloyal ones.

    So, once again, the choice is ‘stupid or evil?’. CB seems to lean towards ‘stupid’.

  • Stephen1947 – since when have you been ANNOINTED GOD of the REAL democrats. Neither of the clinton’s track records stand up to scrutiny – bill is directly responsible for dur chimpfurher because he gave the Iran/Contra criminal cabal a FREE PASS.

    He then proceeded to take the party to the right, playing right into limbaugh’s and newt’s hands.

    These are observations that YOU COULD LOOK UP YOURSELF – but you would rather play GOD.

    ENOUGH SITTING ON OUR HANDS AND ACCOMODATING THE CLINTONS!

    People like you that flame those that speak the truth are also part of the problem, you would rather spread lies and pretend to be on the “high ground”.

    Geeee… come to think of it, that’s right out of SHILLARY’S playbook, isn’t it.

  • We should judge a person by their actions and not their words. The fact that Obama choose Mr. Wright as his spiritual teacher for 20 years and included Mr. Wright in his election staff speaks well for Mr. Obama’s thinking and actions. Words are easy to manipulate and it is UNLIKELY that Obama’s recent speech was written by Mr. Obama anyway. Mr. Obama has a powerful and power hungry staff including his wife that will do or say anything to get him elected to power.
    But clearly this man Mr. Obama is not to be trusted with the future of our great country. And regardless that he is β€˜fashionably black’ and that many of you have some desire to prove to yourself or to others that you are not prejudice and that you like β€˜black people’ with an attitude of β€˜See, I like black people, I’m voting for a black person,’ such an attitude of voting for a person because of their race is the definition of prejudice.

    If Mr. Obama had a lighter skin tone, there is no way he would be tolerated in as much he is aligned with a violent religious group, and never says anything substantial. And not only that, consider today’s announcement that the Chief of the firm involved in the State Department’s passport breach is Obama adviser. And that Obama has been caught lying about Rezko, regarding the amount of money Rezko gave him, and he still hasn’t come clean about his Rezko land deal.
    Just look at the kind of people Mr. Obama associates with. If Obama were to become president, what would stop Mr. Obama from appointing Mr. Wright to his cabinet? And if anyone complained about Mr. Wright’s appointment, no doubt they would be called racist, as this card is played daily by Mr. Obama and his clever campaign staff daily.
    Out of all the 300 million people in America, is this really who you want for president?

    Mr. Obama is partly running on β€˜a premise of guilt’ that if you don’t vote for him, it is because you don’t like his race. A manipulative premise that is certain to have disastrous consequences for America and the world, for we should have as our country’s leader someone with wisdom and knowledge regardless of race, not someone hungry for power.

  • Think of it as boxing. Clinton is behind on points with only a round or so left. Naturally, her swings are going to get wilder and wilder as she tries for the knockout she needs. This makes the fight look closer, but it won’t win. It also increases the chances of low blows, accidental or otherwise.
    This doesn’t bother me, an Obama supporter, too much. It’s only March. Sooner or later, the race will be two candidates instead of three, and Obama’s advantages will assert themselves.

  • Nell,

    Obama supporters either want HRC out of the race now because they are afraid she’ll eventually get the nomination, or they think it is unseemly for a woman to be competitive.

    There is a third option: Obama supporters are concerned that Clinton will drive Obama’s negatives up so high that it will make it harder for him to win in November.

    But I suspect you knew that…

  • Do you think you are converting anyone to your side with those comments?

    Hey, moron, in case you didn’t notice – none of us are running for president and none of us is arrogant enough to assume we are entitled to that office cuz, you know, we were married and slept with a president.

    We should have the right to express our opinions about those that choose to make public spectacles out of themselves – especially the lying liars that think they can play both sides of the race card.

    The clintons did not do much to stand up for progressive values and its time we TALKED ABOUT IT.

  • Elephant in Tent Scripted by Karl Rove. Obama won “Red States” because republican strategy involves G.O.P. crossover voting to take out Clinton, marketing newcomer Obama. Once Obama is Nominee, “SwiftBama” with Rezco, Wright, etc..!

    Evidence of a covert campaign to undermine the presidential primaries is rife, so it’s curious that the Democractic Party and even some within the G.O.P. have ignored the actual elephant in the room this year. That would be Karl Rove. Long accused of rigging the two previous presidential elections, this master of deceit would have us believe that he’s gone off to sit in a corner and write op-eds.

    Not so. According to an article in Time magazine published last November, Republicans have been organized in several states to throw their weight behind Senator Barack Obama, the Democratic rival of Hillary Clinton. At least three former fundraisers for President Bush flushed his coffers with cash early on in the race, something the deep pockets had not done for any candidate in their own party. With receipts topping $100 million in 2007, the first-term Illinois senator broke the record for contributions. It was a remarkable feat, considering that most Americans had not even heard of him before 2005.

    The Time article went on to explain that rank and file Republicans were switching parties this spring to vote for Obama in the Democratic primaries. Though not mentioned in the piece, a group called Republicans for Obama formed in 2006 to expedite the strategy, and the Obama campaign launched its own “Be a Democrat For a Day” campaign in 2007.(An official video distributed in in Florida, Nevada and Vermont explains how this legal form of vote stacking is accomplished .) Many states have open primaries, allowing citizens to vote for any candidate, regardless of their party affiliation. In Nebraska, the mayor of Omaha publicly rallied Republicans to caucus for Obama on February 9th. The tactic, called crossover voting, appears to be part of a Rove-coordinated effort to deprive Clinton of the nomination.
    http://thecityedition.com

  • Focus, Focus, Focus on the task at hand: strengthening our base, winning primaries, and engaging Hillary (and her supporters) in intelligent and respectful discourse…

    Amazing – you hold the general public (actually just the Obama supporters) TO A HIGHER STANDARD THAN THE CLINTONS THEMSELVES.

    What an idiot… and we should listen to your crap because….?

  • I don’t “assume nefarious motives” on the part of the Clintons. I assume unbridled ambition, no holds barred, bare knuckles, eye-gouging, chains and shivs. That’s what “the whole kitchen sink” implies. If Barack or the Party gets hurt in the process, screw them.

    The needless praise for McAin’t does seem unnecessarily over the top to me. What does she (or he) have to gain by it en route to a possible nomination? Nothing that I can see, unless (put on tin foil hat) she’s thinking some kind of “unity ticket” with McAin’t after she loses? Our convention’s in August, and the enemy’s is in September, so a post-convention plot like that might work.

    I say we stay on the upside, just worry about pushing Obama positively and attacking McAin’t whenever we can. Screw the Clintons (as in tit-for-tat). We might also start talking up a very short list whch would include Governors Janet Napolitano (AZ) and Kathleen Sebelius (KS), i.e, make it clear that we want a woman with real executive experience, not the debateable First Lady kind. What to do with Bill Richardson? Secretary of State. John Edwards? Attorney General. Either of them could go to the Supreme Court at the first or second opening.

    Hillary made her bed, she can lie in it. Besides, Senator from NY is better than a bucket of warm piss (the original simile), isn’t it? You bet your sweet bippy it is.

  • Bill Clinton and the DLC won with 43% in 1992 by selling out progressives to moneyed interests against a read-my-lips confirmed liar.
    Since then teh DLC has pounded the drum that only by selling out the progressives (formerly known as liberals), can the Democrats hope to win. They then proceeded to lose seats fairly consistently til’ that crazy wild-eyed hipple Howard Dean took the helm. The same gaggle of doofs were in charge for 2002 and 2004 and Bush wasn’t popular then. Dean was the only significantly new variable.

    After desperate efforts to discredit the 50 state strategy that’s been netting governorships and red congressional seats since then, the DLC faces not just obscurity but historical ridicule. Is it so unreasonable to believe that Hil’s backup wishes ill on any Democratic party they don’t own, even if Hilary were, by some quirk of fate, entirely content with a progressive takeover of the party?

    Rejection in this election is more proof their 15 minutes are up and I don’t find it outlandish that the DLC would like Obama to lose so they can claim Republican victories were inevitable and they aren’t to blame for the 14 years of decline from 92 to 06.

  • Nell : Hell, I want a president who never gives up and never gives in

    We’ve got one. How’s that working out for ya? It hasn’t played out so well for about 4000 soldiers who’ve paid the price for “staying the course” i.e. “Being too thick to admit I screwed up royally and need to do the right thing for the country”. I don’t want that mentality in the White House again, ever. Especially not in my or my kid’s lifetime. And as for your apparent equation of support for Obama as misogynistic, I believe her behavior is going to make the next woman’s run for the presidency that much harder.

  • Hahaha… Yes, I tend to hold people who represent my views to a higher standard than those I disagree with. Not that my pov is totally rational, but hell, I’m human.

    Anyways, I’m disgusted by Clinton’s tactics, that doesn’t mean I have to go yelling about “Shillary” and use my comments to put Clinton supporters’ backs up. All this sort of commentary does is undermine the possibility of actually using this blog to have an intelligent conversation.

    I’m certainly not suggesting that we let people like Olandug, Comeback Bill, etc, just spew their idiotic rhetoric unchallenged. I just think we can refute their arguments without resorting to petty name-calling and the whole capslock thing.

  • Obama supporters either want HRC out of the race now because they are afraid she’ll eventually get the nomination, or they think it is unseemly for a woman to be competitive.

    Wow, that’s incredibly insulting, Nell. Can you point to a single comment here to back up your blanket accusation of sexism? A single one?

    How can you crudely boil this down to that false either/or proposition when most of the Obama supporters here have consistently offered an explanation that I know for a fact you have seen over and over and over again here:

    We think Clinton has no chance to wrap up the nomination, and now we know that even her campaign puts the odds at 1-in-10. Given those long odds, we think that all she’s doing now is damaging the party’s all-but-certain nominee.

    At the same time, we think that the polling evidence out there shows that Obama would be a stronger general election nominee against John McCain and that he would have longer coattails for electing more and better Democrats to Congress in the fall.

    And yet you insist it must be our deep abiding hatred of women.

  • We certainly didn’t learn anything from Lieberman, did we? I read earlier someone use the phrase ‘America for Clinton’ and that encapsulates succinctly exactly how I feel.

    Hell, I want a president who never gives up and never gives in. -Nell

    Instead you prefer a candidate blind to reality who will forge ahead based on their own will and presumption of correctness? I’ve had plenty of that, thanks.

    I’ll take accountable and well grounded for a thousand, Alex.

    Obama supporters either want HRC out of the race now because they are afraid… -Nell

    It has nothing to do with fear. It has everything to do with preparing for, especially economically, the election. McCain will have a massive head start on Obama should this continue.

    It’s time to pull the plug. Hillary’s campaign is brain dead.

  • I’ve never liked the fine line that we Americans draw between targeting civilians (terrorism) and our own indifference to civilian deaths (collateral damage). Targeting caused around 3,000 civilian deaths on 9-11. Our indifference has caused tens of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq since 9-11.

    Anyway (focus Diane, focus), that’s how Hillary seems to look at this campaign. I suspect she views any damage to Obama in the fall as necessary collateral damage…and that makes it all okay.

  • I see a lot of Clinton supporters saying “the race is close” and a lot of Obama supporters saying “no it is not.”

    The fact is somewhere in the middle. It is close, but not close enough for Clinton to have a realistic shot. The reality is that Clinton will probably win Pennsylvania 58/42 or thereabouts…and Obama will win somewhere in the neighborhood of 55/45 in North Carolina and probably the same in Oregon. And the rest will split at roughly 55/45 to one side or the other.

    What this means is that when all the contests are done, neither candidate will have the delegates to claim this thing outright, but one of them will have more delegates and more of the popular vote. Being that that person is almost certainly Obama, this is why Obama supporters are calling for an end.

    Now, I am rational enough to see why Clinton and her supporters want her to stay in. She is, after all, tantalizingly close. But the fact is, Obama is going to arrive at the convention with more pledged delegates and more popular vote. Sure, the supers could override that advantage, but I just don’t see that happening in this case.

    Sorry Clinton supporters. It was a good fight, but your team came up short. This isn’t a dis on your chosen candidate, it’s just reality.

  • I just want to know why Obama is not being asked to step down? If any white candidate were found to be hanging around with a racist they would be run out of town never mind the fact he admits the reverand is his spiritual advisor and friend. I demand that racist step down. I and im sure hundreds of thousands of americans and i will not let this go. This is unexcusable and should be investigated further. Obama also lied to the american people when he said the reverand stepped down over a year ago. The reverand was preaching from the pulpit about recent matters and that proves Obama lied to our face. I will never acknowledge Obama as my leader. I will always consider him as a racist. He should have completely and utterly disavowed himself of the reverand when he had the chance. And further more im disturbed that the black community has chosen to side with Obama almost entirely. Replace Obama with a white candidate and then replace the reverand with David Dukes or someone like him and what would the black community be saying. I rest my case!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • While you’re screaming about how Hillary has already lost, she’s building leads in PA and WV…

    Alright, let’s crunch the numbers. By Slate’s count, Obama currently has a delegate lead of 1698-1540, or 150 delegates.

    In the last polls, Clinton had leads of 50-35 in PA and 55-30 in WVa, which are her best two states left. Those were each over a week ago — at the depths of the Wright story and before the speech or Richardson’s endorsement, both of which have shown rebounds nationally.

    But let’s pretend the polls not only stay here at Clinton’s best moment, but she gets all the undecided voters too and gets blowouts. So make it 65-35 in PA and 70-30 in WVa. She’d get 103 delegates in PA; Obama 55. She’d get 20 delegates in WV; Obama 8. That’s 123 to 63, for a net gain of 60, closing the gap to 90 delegates.

    Where does she go to make up that 90 delegate deficit? She’s trailing Obama in most of the other states by sizeable margins, but she’d need to come out ahead and win big across the board.

    Seriously, please show me where the delegates come from.

    http://www.pollster.com
    http://www.slate.com/id/2185278/

  • to Olandug @ #34
    I just don’t get it…what rev Wright did was to speak out about injustice in a forceful manner. I guest I want to ask “What did black people do to white people to cause such fear of what we think?”. See, I understand the root of my fears in this country as a AA, I feel the sometimes the “White social conciseness” wakes up and gets directed at some “group” and changes the rules to hurt the “group”. etc slavery, jim crow, Japanese internment camps in the 1940’s. What I dont get is what is it Obama is going to do reach some people and deal with the fears.

  • Clinton is acting as if she doesn’t care about the Democratic Party’s interests at all, except insofar as they coincide with her own.

    Exactly right. This self-entitled Boomer Female Chauvinist is fully convinced that it’s her “turn” – which it might be after The Old Republic is overthrown and the Empire is proclaimed.

    If she thinks this helps her for 2012, she’s even more delusional than Bloody Mary is.

  • SB says:
    HRC has “engaged in some campaign tactics I found more than a little troublesome, but I consider this more evidence of her willing to do what it takes to get the nomination, not evidence of her trying to sabotage U.S. interests by helping McCain’s candidacy.”

    The problem with this analysis is that it assumes that HRC shares SB’s viewpoint that “helping McCain’s candidacy” would constitute “trying to sabotage U.S. interests.” Yet, at this point (3 am add and all the rest), it’s pretty clear that she doesn’t see it that way. Quite the contrary, there’s substantial evidence that she really and truly believes that BO isn’t ready, and that McCain would do a better job as C in C. At some point, you have to conclude that she says these things because that’s how she feels.

    And once you remove SB’s erroneous assumption from the analysis, you’re left with Chait’s conclusion: “whether she sees the damage to Obama’s prospects as a feature or a bug is interesting but beside the point.”

  • NB: Booo Hoooo – the people that don’t support my candidate shillarly are not being nice even though my candidate and her husband use racist divisionist rhetoric rhetoric and said that Obama is less qualified than a senile old man that flip-flops so often he makes a short-order cook seem like model of stability.

    Boooo hooooo – the professionals at the clinton campaign sling mud and the people on blogs respond to it – NOT FAIR.

    Booooo hooooo – if only all the actors on the stage would just do as I tell them to do and read their lines, everything would be perfect and my corporate-owned candidate would get the nomination and be able to continue supporting the war she voted for.

    Boooo hooooo – only my side gets to say things that aren’t true or polite and everyone else should just shut up because….;

    Booooo hoooooo – I said so….

    And no one else is listening……. And I am so important – just like shillary….

    But people aren’t listening to how BRILLIANT we are and are not following my orders.

    Boooooo hoooooo – how dare people come to a blog and post their honest reactions to a dishonest campaign being run by the clintons…..

    Boooo Hoooo… I hope no one is home when they call at 3 am – oh wait – that girl supports Obama….

    Booooo Hooooo – that is so unfair and un-democratic of her. It just isn’t right…. BOOOOO HOOOO!

  • Speaking of lying liar lieberman – the clintons backed him, didn’t they…..

    But shame on anyone that says anything about the clintons – its so unfair….

  • Matt, you moron – mclame, shillary, and dur chimpfurher AND VIRTUALLY EVERY WHITE CANDIDATE accepts support from racist white people that proclaim to speak for GOD.

    But you want to single out Obama when even the clinton White House honored the man.

    Just more of the dishonest rhetoric I expect from shillary proponents.

  • On March 24th, 2008 at 4:19 pm, Olandug said:
    We should judge a person by their actions and not their words.

    Well, in your case, the words are sufficient for a diagnosis of Clinton Derangement Syndrom and no-so-closet White Supremacy.

    Seig Heil, Olandug!!

    Now, how do I scrape you off the bottom of my shoe?

  • Hillary was a Goldwater Girl gone bad (over to the Dems), but now she’s back on track cheerleading for the Republican nominee, Senator John McWar. With her pro-Iraq war record and her pro-bombing Iran vote in the book, she and Bill are showing their racist, war-mongering Republican colors. All they need to work on are their smirks…

  • With all the talk of how many state primaries Obama has won, no one wants to quantify that. He is winning traditionally RED states, states he would not have a chance of winning in a national contest. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that open primaries are drawing Republicans to vote in Democratic primaries in an attempt to control who their candidate will face in November. Meanwhile, Hillary is winning the BIG states – states that are BLUE (or will go blue) in November. This is a critical point. Far from “brain dead” as one respondent called it, the Clinton campaign is going strong. Would people ask another male candidate who is only behind by a little over 100 delegates to drop out of the race? From the perspective of many women, this more of the sexism that no seems able to recognize in this campaign.

  • On March 24th, 2008 at 4:58 pm, Matt said:
    I just want to know why Obama is not being asked to step down? If any white candidate were found to be hanging around with a racist they would be run out of town never mind the fact he admits the reverand is his spiritual advisor and friend. I demand that racist step down. I and im sure hundreds of thousands of americans and i will not let this go.

    More Clinton Derangement Syndrome among the morons. Thanks for demonstrating that computers are so user-friendly a biped lacking frontal lobes and opposable thumbs can use them.

    Here ya go, Matt, you’ll look like a genius among these folks:

    http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com

    or

    http://www.freerepublic.com

    Don’t let the door hit your fat little ass on the way out.

  • Shes a goldwater girl, her defection to the dems was due to convenience not any actual love of the dem party

  • Hillary is winning the BIG states – states that are BLUE (or will go blue) in November.

    They’ll go blue if Hillary is the nominee, Obama is the nominee, or Kucinich is the nominee.

    Do you seriously believe Obama would lose New York or Massachusetts or California?

    I don’t care if she stays in, but sending Carville out to call the (very) likely nominee of the party a Judas is destructive to the democratic party.

  • VIETVET – nice try – you conveniently overlook the national numbers and state by state analysis that clearly show Obama to beat shillary and mclame.

  • I agree, Erik in Maine. Name calling is destructive, serves no real purpose, and on this blog seems to be the refuge of those who have no intellectual argument to put forth. I can’t say how NY, Mass or CA will go – but I would not underestimate the Republican party’s ability to drag up every questionable bit of info they can find. Michelle Obama’s BA thesis (rife with fodder for a charge of racism); Rev Wright; Rezko – who knows what they will spin, whether it is based in fact or manufactured. I’ll put money on Hillary to be able to withstand a Republican onslaught over Obama anyday. We’ve seen her come back from horrendous attacks in the 1990s to a respected career in the senate – respected by both sides of the aisle. In another time and place, SHE could have beaten Bill to the presidency. As bright as he is, she’s smarter.

  • Funny how the shillary supporters hear can cry FOUL at the opinions of the PUBLIC and what many think of the clinton tactics, BUT THEY GIVE HER A FREE PASS FOR LYING!

    The most recent example is that she was in eminent danger when she went to Bosnia – they repeatedly pull this crap out of their a$$es and slime Obama, directly stating that somehow a senile man that changes his position every day is more “presidential.”

    Perhaps if clinton did not want these types of comments being commonly posted in open comment boards, they would think twice about lying and slandering as their main campaign tactics.

  • The general election is decided by the independents. Obama has done significantly better amongst independent voters than Hillary.

    In California (a blue state Hillary won), Obama beat her amongst (I) voters 58%-34%

  • Funny, VIETVET, for someone that is so smart – SHE SURE SCREWED UP HER STORY ON BOSNIA!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If what you say is true, she surely was “smart” enough to know it was all a lie, right?

  • I think the point that needs to be made—the point that’s so sorely lacking in the numerous defenses of Clinton—is that she is, in all likelihood, the final candidate of “the old guard.” Her entire outlook on politics, campaigning, and governance is dependent on maintaining the status-quo of centralized power.

    Hence the overzealous embracing of the “BigState/BlueState” mantra, and the quasi-overt rejection of Dean’s “50State” strategy. Her entire philosophy; her entire organization; her entire battle-plan and machination has been completely founded upon the generational thesis of fighting the campaign exactly the way her husband fought.

    Which equates to fighting the same campaign in which Nixon, Reagan, Bush-1, and Bush-2 seized control of the Republic and demolished the hard-fought gains of Liberals, Progressives, and Moderates. The same campaign that gave GOPers the WH for 28 of the last 40 years.

    Democrats cannot continue to repair the profiteering vagaries of Republicanism when they can only hold the executive branch of government for a whole, deliriously-whopping 30% of the time. It’s just not a do-able thing any more—especially with a treasury that’s been gutted, a military that’s been ground into “Mickey-D” hamburger meat, an economy that’s been the victim of “slash-n-burn” capitalism, a dollar that’s got all-but-terminal arthritis, and an employment mentality that’s exporting jobs faster than grain.

    Clinton has exactly two chances of becoming president—either by beating Obama in the primaries, or by beating him in the general election. She knows this. Her husband knows this. Her staff, her media entourage, and her supporters all know this—right down to the last hucksters and harpies. An Obama presidency means the end of a political era—and the irreversible extinction-event for that “old guard” of the Party.

    For not only Clinton, but for all those who embrace the political model that she embraces, this is the last stand; the final battle that will grant Clintonian thinking either a final glorious moment before the sunset—or the final sunset, uninterrupted and unchecked.

    I would prefer that it be that final sunset, for a setting sun is a necessary prerequisite to a rising sun….

  • @VietVet

    The GOP is sitting on years of oppo research on Hillary. She’ll win 5 states in the general (VT, MA, NY, CA, ARK). Nominate Hillary and we rip open all the festering sores of the 1990s. Nothing gets done.

    Senator Clinton, we see your husband has benefited from consulting gigs sent his way by Mark Rich….

  • Right on Steve @70 – you can add to that here preposterous idea to round up Alan Greenspan and Robert Rubin on a committee to figure out if Frank-Dodd legislation goes far enough to fix the housing mess. A) those two, especially Greenspan, are part of the problem, not the solution and B) what do you think the chance is that Greenspan (mister Ayn Rand libertarian wackadoo antiregulation man) would think regulation doesn’t go far enough? Absurd!

    Hillary doesn’t get it. She is totally old school, and status quo. She can’t understand how we got into the messes we are currently in, and has no chance of understanding how to get us out.

    Greenspan? Fricking greenspan as the SOLUTION to anything to do with the housing bust. Just unbelieveably ridiculous. By far the stupidest thing yet to come out of her mouth, but definitely proof positive that if she becomes president, we will make no progress on anything important to fixing the damage of the last 8 years.

  • But VietVet – not all candidates have to retract the outlandish statments they may have made to gin up their credentials.

    “Embellishing” is one thing – you are equating OUTRIGHT FALSIFYING THE RECORD with embellishing – like somehow pulling made-up events out of your ass is the same thing as using rhetorical tactics to put yourself in the best light.

    And you just said she was smarter than anyone else in the room – so she must have known that her statements on Bosnia were false, but she didn’t care, right?

    And you want to justify that with your little linky and imply that Obama is “just as bad” cuz “they all do it?”

    Please – you are a bigger idiot than I thought.

  • There is something else that comes into play – Clinton has had two terms in Washington as senator and had a chance to work both sides of the aisle. She also has time in Washington during Bill’s tenure – although there is a lot of dismissal of this time as inconsequential, you do get to know people when they’re having a few drinks at those official dinners. Obama – while bringing a fresh and sorely needed new perspective to politics – hasn’t been in Washington long enough to know who has what agenda, who can be trusted to keep their word, and who will feed him information that may be indicative of self-interest rather than national interest. He wants change, and I agree that change is needed. But can he make the entire Washington political machine change just because HE wants to? Anyone who’s written a congressional representative knows that they don’t always vote their constituents’ interests. We, as a people, may clamor for change, but we still have to depend on the old dogs in Washington until a new generation can replace the lot of them. And that is a gradual process which will take time.
    Just putting out some other facets of this issue to be considered.

  • G2000, is would be UNFREAKIN’ BELIEVABLE except that shillary has enabled the chimperor’s agenda since day 1 – actually, bill started it!

    It is not just a misunderstanding or oversight that she proclaims that greenspan will somehow save us – these are the people and the interests that she represents.

    It is time to take the Democratic Party back – the folks that she supports are WILDLY unpopular right now and so is everything they stand for.

    If given an opportunity, shillary will just take us back to where we have already been.

  • All the posts about the Clintons splitting the party is true of Barry also. He was painted as a spotless candidate with good judgment; He has proven himself to have poor judgment repeatedly. And I am still trying to figure out how you talk to Wall Street isn’t the Secretary of the Treasury a more likely source to give an educated opinion on the state of the economy? I would think the street sign at Wall Street wouldn’t give a lot of information. also I would be leery of its ties to large corporations. Or is this another example of Barry’s rhetoric? He is also proven that his campaign can sink lower than the Clinton campaign. The blue dress comment is truly a sign of desperation and I believe poor judgment. If he can’t handle his own campaign how can he run the country? And if he thinks the Clinton campaign is throwing the kitchen sink, he needs to prepare himself for the house that the GOP is going to throw him. If he gets the nomination I will have to turn off the TV and stop reading the paper because I will not be able to tolerate all the whining.

  • VietVet – you are such a moron…..

    “We may clamor for change” …. but we have to wait….

    Because you would rather support the lying liars that are wholly bought and paid for by the political interests that have destroyed the US dollar, our military, and even the basic concepts of freedom that our founding fathers gave us.

    Because you are too stupid to do anything but repeat the same lies.

  • Vice Versa, you make the same point – that the Republicans will swiftboat Obama with everything they’ve got.
    It is also true that the polls are turning against him. He did regain some after the Philadelphia speech, but still averages less than McCain in the national contest. No doubt about it, this is a difficult time for voters of all persuasions.

  • It has been interesting, if not always enlightening, reading this blog. Lots of comments from all sides of the spectrum. Gotta run to another appointment.

    Vote early!

  • You are just dishonest – I guess one of the “concern trolls” that thinks they can manufacture dissent by dropping republican talking points into the threads under the guise of giving a damn about the democratic party.

    Obviously, your type doesn’t sway people here, but that don’t keep you from trying – either too dumb to notice or have too much time on your hands.

    I will say this – I have to give shillary a lot of credit for not blowing bill and leaving that dirty work to that sow monica – that does say something positive about her judgement, but it doesn’t make her presidential.

  • I yield to nobody in my loathing of Hillary Clinton. However, she is giving Obama a gift beyond price– a dress rehearsal for the real campaign. Whatever she and her cadre of slugs can come up with to slime him, it’s bening-o-rama compared to what the Republican party will start flinging once Obama wins the nomination. This is his chance to develop a rapid response mechanism and learn how to handle, slander, libel, and vile accusations, and hopefully, to turn the tables. As bad as things are for him now, they will become much, much worse. He can use this time to learn.

  • Awwwww. And I thought Annette Bening was going to make an appearance….well, at least we’ve got this Benen guy.

  • I know this is a pro-Obama crowd and all but as I see it, Obama is the one ripping apart the Democratic party. He and his supporters are so busy calling Hillary and her supporters race-baiters and McCarthyites that they’ve completely destroyed the liberal brand the Democrats have been working on for decades. We are the party of inclusion but if you listen to the Obama folks tell it, we’re actually a party of closet racists. We are the pro-social reform party, but if you listen to the Obama folks, Bill Clinton is McCarthy’s second coming. Because of Obama and the things he’s been saying, Democrats are now seen as just as racist and facist as the Republicans. We can no longer claim the high road. The republicans will feel justified in believing that Democrats are America haters. Want proof? Just look at Obama and how he embraces and fails to disown Wright. Republicans have been trying to paint Democrats as racist hypocrites and America haters for the last 40 years. Obama did it for them in less than 12 months.

  • Usually the political discourse at The Carpetbagger is thoughtful and introspective, but I think your conclusions are naive and shortsighted this time. Even the freaking REPUBLICANS agree the current conflict is tearing the Democratic party apart; a “Republican strategist” on CNN this morning used exactly those words, and suggested it was beneficial to John McCain for the “food fight” to continue while he polished his image abroad and concentrated on fundraising for the General.

    You can use all the sports analogies you like – calling the game when there’s still 3 minutes left to play, calling the series while there are still games left to play – whatever. All that would result from such a situation would be a game perhaps unfairly lost. The presidency is not a game, and handing victory to the Republicans simply because the two Dem candidates could not stop fighting until it was too late for the winner to switch gears would be inexcusable.

    Many sources are now highlighting just how long are the odds of a Clinton victory. She’s hanging back, waiting and hoping some scandal like the Jeremiah Wright story will break and overwhelm Obama. Somebody with clout ought to spell out for her just what she must achieve, what breathtaking margins of victory would be necessary for her to win the nomination fairly. Then she should be asked if she thinks she has a realistic chance of making it happen. If she says “Yes”, and presses on to lose, and the Democrats lose to John McCain in the general, she should be driven out of politics, never to return.

    She touts herself as a great leader; well, this isn’t how a leader behaves.

  • g8grl – try some context on for size and watch all the Wright videos…then come back. The guy has very legitimate points about this country – his delivery, and his anger, aren’t the kind of stuff that would play in political or diplomatic circles. But guess what? He’s isnt a politician. He is a preacher. He also preaches in a place with people that I’d say you know nothing about. Wake up!

  • Well, unfortunately it was the blue stained dress that forced Bill to finally tell the truth. Taking a jibe at that is not shameful: his behavior was. If you have sex with a White House intern and lie about it (as an unexperienced man, you did not know oral sex was sex), people will make jokes about it.

    Actually, I liked the metaphor in that comment: Bill Clinton has stained his legacy by devoting himself to his racist comments and becoming a pawn for the ambitions of his power-grabbing wife more than he has due to that episode. I also agree that they are after destroying Obama just to get a chance at the White House in 2012… (they cannot do it this year).

    Gosh, to think I liked and believed in them once. Incredible!

  • g8grl – so you just proved that you:

    (1). Did not see/read/hear what he actually said

    (2). Are still trying to make this an issue when most of America has already gone on

    (3). Are just repeating repug talking points from the lying liars in the mainstream media – the only difference is you are proclaiming to do it in support of shillary.

    And you have the audacity (or perhaps its just ignorance) to say that OBAMA is wrecking the party – its the likes of YOU that are “catapulting the propaganda”

  • Mark – you are also a moron – EVEN THE REPUBLICANS AGREE….

    Like this is some type of objective standard – if the lying liars that “catapult the propaganda” and brought us a fraudulent AWOL alcoholic/cocaine addict “war pResident” say it, it has to be true.

    There are many foolish, ignorant things in this thread from the shillary supporters, but this takes the cake….

    Geee, they said it on FAUX – so it has to be true!

  • If shillary really cared about this country – SHE WOULD BLOW THE CHIMP so we could impeach the MF already. She failed in her duty to president clinton, the least she could do is make it up by getting in on with dur chimpfurher

  • Mark
    You assume that the majority of people in the nomination process are for Barry. As of today the numbers are correct. However, Barry will be eaten alive in a GE. He does not have the experience or the judgment to win. This campaign is about hope but you have to have more than hope to run the country. I am voting for hope. The hope of someone that can operate in a political environment and create change. Barry is correct when he states that it takes people to create change. But I think you have to back up the words with action. He gave a speech about the war when he couldn’t even vote on it. I told everyone I knew the same thing. Do you think I should run for president? A poet is not a president.

  • I both saw and heard what Obama said but unlike you, I don’t believe everything a politician says just because he says it. I don’t believe most of America has already gone on. You can’t wish America has gone on just because it’s inconvenient of America to remember that Obama embraced Wright for 20 years. That doesn’t get erased by a 50 minute speech. I’m a realist. Obama is a guy who doesn’t appreciate the real steps that the Democrats have taken over the last 30 years toward racial reconciliation. His speech was lovely but between Obama and Wright you’d think we’re still asking black folks to move to the back of the bus. A lot of people in this country who think they’ve evolved and think that they are liberal will not appreciate being labeled “typical white folks” who carry around an underlying racism. Obama made a speech, the next day or two his campaign put out a picture of Rev. Wright shaking hands with Bill Clinton. That was a pathetic attempt at spreading the toxicity around and it doesn’t help Obama’s racial healing schtick. I would like to see more action and less words. Obama is “just words.”

  • V-V : WhoTF is Barry?

    So, people are better off voting for a cheerleader, ex-drunk, failed businessman, because he is decidely straight-talkin and not a poet? Look where that got us.

    BO will be eaten alive in a GE? How so? Does not have the experience or judgment? And McCain does? Have you listened to the things he has said? Think about his experience – he’s a POW for years, and then decides after all we’ve been through that torture is a good idea. Yeh, that’s judgment alright. It’s called senility, bitterness, vindictiveness, etc, but not good judgment.

    What we need is competence, and a massive break with status quo. McCain would bring us more of the same misery, except possibility with an added dose of stupidity. He knows nothing of economics and his economics teams would be a bunch of shills that are more fit for spouting off on know-nothing CNBC. His foreign policy is more dangerous than Bush’s. And he can’t even get his facts straight.

    It’s amazing that ANYONE with a working brain would even consider McCain as President.

    You clearly don’t get what is going in this country if you think McCain has a chance in hell against Obama, and it doesnt matter what kind of smear campaign they pull off. In case you havent noticed, that is exactly what this country wants to get away from.

    WAKE UP!

  • g8grl – right, you saw and heard it, don’t believe it, and would rather let your own racism be your guide.

    Nice – in the absence of any real evidence that the statements that are being taken out of context represent Obama’s views, you have already made up your mind.

    No wonder you support shillary – in fact, sound like birds-of-a-feather to me.

  • And shillary has shown us lots of “action”

    *she enabled the chimp’s agenda EACH AND EVERY STEP OF THE WAY

    *she was a leading advocate of the bankruptcy reform bill

    *she wants to put the man most responsible for the financial meltdown we have seen, greenspan, in charge of a “commission” to fix it

    *she backed joe lieberman

    If that is the kind of “action” you want to see – hell – JUST VOTE MCLAME!

  • g8grl – oh my goodness…..when I say wake up, I dont mean listen to what Obama said. Clearly you wont ever recognize that as one of the most important and necessary political speeches of all time….you’re too busy feeling like it was insulting to you. What, did you need it to be pointed out that it wasn’t meant to be interpreted as we are all equally complicit? Some are, some are more than others, but none of us is free of being prejudiced in one manner or another. It’s a matter of the extent, and how that has accumulated in our political system and way of life over the years.

    What we are saying to you is listen to Wright’s sermons. Uh,hullooooooooo???

  • little bear – get your facts straight, and take off the CAPS LOCK.

    Hillary did not vote on the bankruptcy bill. She was the only senator absent, as Bill was having surgery that day. Though the bill passed by a wide margin, she later came out against it.

    However, I do have my suspicions that if in the chamber that day, she would have yelled, “Hell Yeah!”

  • […] as for your apparent equation of support for Obama as misogynistic, I believe her behavior is going to make the next woman’s run for the presidency that much harder. — Chicago Pat, @42

    Not only the next woman who runs for presidency; the ripple effect may be broader than that… I’ve stopped donating to Emily’s List — an organization which promotes Dem women and helps them run for various political offices, and which I’ve supported, wholeheartedly, for 5 yrs or more. It may not be much; I don’t have much to give. But, I don’t know where they’re likely to direct the little I can afford to give, and I’ll be damned if I see a penny of it going to Clinton.

    Little bear… Could you, like, find something else to do? Go pound the streets for Ron Paul, maybe? Half of the comments on this thread are yours but they don’t add much to the discussion beyond “shillary this”, “you moron that”, etc, etc. And, since you obviously know how to use the Shift key, perhaps you could use it for capital letters in proper places, instead of all caps in the rest of your message?

  • to be a bit more fair, Hillary voted for a different version of the bill in 2001. However, it did not pass. In 2005, when the final bill did pass, she was not present. She says she would not have voted for this bill because of the important compromise positions of the former bill was stripped away.

    This to me is a sketchy defense. The fact that it is not in there is almost irrelevant. If it were, the bill would still suck, and would still be a major giveaway to the banks. Had the 2001 bill passed, it would perhaps suck slightly more, but that means nothing. That she stumped for the original bill says a lot about whose interest’s she is really trying to serve.

    Typically, she wants it both ways. It’s not easy being a Senator, especially in New York, but man, some principles you just have to stand up for. To me, whenever the really important votes are on the line, she votes with the Republicans, the hawks, and the moneyed interests. I for one am kind of tired of this, seeing as where it has taken us the past few years.

  • This is all just speculation. Nobody really knows what Clinton thinks.

    My guess is that she is concentrating on 2008 and will do anything to try to win the nomination but I doubt she is pursuing a strategy based upon 2012. I suspect that she has no qualms about taking action which lessen Obama’s chances to win a general election if she thinks that this will give her a shot at the nomination this year, which gives the impression to some that she is actually working towards a McCain victory so she can challenger him in 2012.

    While her chances of winning the 2008 nomination are small, it is still not impossible. I bet she realizes that if she loses the nomination in 2008 her chances in 2012 are very poor, and would be even poorer if she is perceived as being the reason the Democrats lose the general election in 2008.

    “isn’t it at least possible that Clinton is acting in such a way to help the Democratic Party as she sees it?”

    Yes, because the way she sees the Democratic Party is as basically a Clintonista Party. The question is whether she has any interest in how the party does should it become an Obama party.

  • “Clinton thinks she’s the only candidate standing between us a third term of Bush policies.”

    Show me on (reliable) poll where Hillary has every been above 50% nationally. She’s dreaming if not down right delusional.

  • Hillary supporters aren’t going to roll over and die just because Obama supporters, Bill Richardson, Ted Kennedy, and the media expect them to. If and when a clear winner is established when the rest of the States get their chance to weigh in with their votes, then a decision will be made. For the time being, if the campaigns would both focus on the real issues, and not the media stirred up drama, people will see that both democratic candidates would be far better than the alternative candidate on the other side.

  • The Clintons need to go, and the blue will go into the pages of the failed Clinton presidency

  • I dont have a big beef with Hillary doing what she is doing, by the way. The democratic party needs to beat itself up a bit to prep for the nastiness ahead. Better to get most of the dirt aired now and be done with it. Republicans have more money and better and dirtier lawyers – they will dredge up everything legit, and a lot more that isnt.

    You must admit that it is still a fairly close race, and she can make the argument that she will come close enough to sway some superdelegates to avoid pledging for Obama just based upon a slim margin that was gained early and lost late.

    But the rules are what they are, and once set, you should really play by them.

    If realistic expectations for the delegates she would win, even if she does the best possible that can reasonably be expected in upcoming votes, are enough to make it close enough that there is a legitimate way for her to win under the rules that exist now, then she should be allowed to continue.

    Since it seems that the math is too probabalistic, at the rate things are changing, it is best to give this time to see what transpires that may further swing things Hillary’s way, and thus change the realistic vote possibilities. Until we get to the point that it is not statistically possible for her to win, and I dont mean, 0.001% chance, then this has to continue. It’s unfortunate that this is how it is, but to cut out an important candidate that much of the party feels so strongly about, would alienate more people than we could possibly lose to McCain by making it go longer.

    They might not be vindictive enough to vote for JM, but if they stay home, just as bad.

  • So I guess everyone has a “personal relationship” with the Clinton’s enough to make these judgements. All most of you know is what you read in the paper or hear on the TV news. Well, all of that is owned by Corporate America, so who’s dictating the outcome here. Give me a break. Obama’s a rock star or maybe even as big as Jesus. Maybe we should wash his feet. I don’t dislike the man, I just dislike the hero worship going on. He hasn’t proven anything yet other than he can make a great speech and wiggle his way out of the bad stuff.

  • PJ – those are 2 things that shillary can’t prove. Certainly mclame can’t either – so what’s your beef?

    What makes shillary “presidential”:

    SHE SCREWED UP THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATIONS ONLY CHANCE AT REFORMING HEALTHCARE!

    And then she took in big buck and called political favors to get elected to the senate – BIG DEAL.

    Has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF MERIT THERE except rubber stamp chimpy’s policies.

  • Carville called Richardson a Judas – there was no reference of Obama being a Judas.

    In 2007, Clinton led in most polls prior to Iowa with a pretty decent lead; perhaps Clinton believed (though it was a Republican move to pull the primaries earlier for FL) that without MI or FL, she would still be ahead in delegates…

    OR, perhaps she believed that the media would be as scrutinous to Obama as they had been with her or her husband…..

    However, had the NewsMax story on Rev. Wright, which was mentioned first WELL BEFORE the Iowa caucus and Super Tuesday, aired in more mainstream media channels (NBC, Fox, ABC, CBS, and CNN/MSNBC) in addition to the Rezko details, the political race may be VERY different now…

    To be fair, there are several questionable items with Obama that should have been made more mainstream:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-galesburg_obama_webfeb01,0,7138122,print.story

    (special interest PAC $$ hypocrite– Ted Kennedy helps with Unions endorsements now – so unions are more ‘mainstream and represent America’s workers’… Obama’s campaign team does the dirty work for him while he makes ‘eloquent speeches’ and receives on the job training from them— and new appointee Bill Richardson; perhaps Richardson will be rewarded with a VP seat since most believe that Obama will never give Clinton the chance for the job– to many “Hillary/Clinton haters” out there to jeopardize his Presidential bid…).

    After all the years of contribution to society, why does such animosity still exist toward the Clintons? Much was made via the Republican era trying to destroy them (perhaps they have). Both Clintons fight b/c they have been demonized for so many years; affairs are a personal matter (no campaign funds either!), and I don’t know of too many husbands who’ll admit to one first ;)… I’m amazed that they can trust anyone outside their own families and very close friendships, but they have been working for years trying to be bipartisan and implement or aid in pushing through policies that help others despite the demonizing. It seems there are 2 extremes regarding the Clintons- admire them, or admonish them to death. I believe that the good each Clinton has tried to do far outweighs the bad they have done; this can be made in comparison to Bush as TX Gov. or as the current president. Things would be far different if anyone associated with the Clintons were president now [eg. Gore, perhaps Richardson]. I really appreciated John Edwards presidential bids as well (he went ‘toe to toe’ with Cheney – view factcheck.org for more on their debate regarding Iraq; perhaps Cheney has provided ‘fighting words’ for distant cousin Obama’s debate with Clinton??).

    Now if anyone believes that Senator Obama doesn’t represent or USE ‘old politics’, then one has not been viewing how he represented his own constituents prior to his own ambition for the presidency:

    http://www.thecityedition.com/Pages/Archive/Winter08/PDFfiles/2008Election.pdf

    And the associated Money trail (Crowns, and the above individuals mentioned the article):

    http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/31965

    Certainly Senator Obama should have known about associations with individuals such as Rezko or the Crowns that may tarnish him (in viewing the Clintons throughout the years) while a member of the IL legislature and during his run for the Senate in 2006 (which both Sens. Kerry and Clinton helped by campaigning for him). And certainly Senator Obama did accept PAC, etc. money up until his formal presidential announcement; he now has a large warchest and no longer needs to include their money. We will see how this plays if Obama is the Democratic nominee regarding campaign funds against McCain (hm!).

    By the way, regarding the ‘race controversy’:

    Obama did realize that his pastor’s views may land him in hot water (known PRIOR to the Iowa caucus but not reported in the mainstream media outlets….I wonder why?). Even Rev. Wright knew this would happen, but by the time Senator Obama gave his speech to a meeting of United Church of Christ:

    http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/4186/1/532

    (Google it as well for more information)

    Reverend Wright knew what to express or say when the cameras are during in certain events, and he knew what to say when he is at ‘home’, in his pulpit. Yes, President Clinton welcomed pastors of mega-churches during HIS time of impeachment crisis (why the media now reviews her travel logs regarding this I have no idea; only to throw mud if anything!). It would be much more relevant if the Obama camp had a photo of President Clinton in attendance at Trinity United Church of Christ! Anyway, Rev. Wright stated that he might have to leave the campaign months ago. He knew that his controversial preaching background could possibly begin to harm the campaign in the future. However prior to the reverend retiring from his pulpit and from Obama’s campaign, the pastor’s message and the masses that followed him throughout the country aided in promoting Senator Obama. Thus essentially, Reverend Wright fulfilled his objective, and Senator Obama, through the ‘race controversy’, now shines as the candidate willing to address the issues and unite the nation in the process [not to mention being on the talk shows and news media 12/24 hours; now he’s vacationing with his family…].

    These were my concerns with Senator Obama when I supported Edwards (and liked Richardson and Clinton). If anything, Obama has many gentlemen on his campaign team with ties to the Clintons. After years of service and then working in high paying eschelon positions, I suppose they feel better if they can develop a candidate themselves then having to listen as, perhaps, subordinates to current senator of NY (and former first lady). Richardson’s nomination will aid in their quest of tutoring Obama in matters pertaining to foreign policy.

    Thank you for the opportunity to post!

  • People are finding out more and more about Obama and what they are finding out they don’t like. He is not a patriot. If he is elected, they will be dancing in the streets in the middle eastern countries as they did at 9-11. Some of the states which he won he could not win today because his true character is stating to show.

  • #118 (Little Bear)

    An exerpt from MSNBC blog from a very wise observer (NOT ME):

    Hillary Clinton was overwhelmed by those responsible for the predicament in the nation’s health care system. She underestimated the insurance-controlled system which continues to impose enormous pain on the population. It is not just that 46 million people are now without health insurance, but the system also fails the huge numbers of people who have insufficient coverage and don’t discover this until they need it. This cruel system has been supported by large employers because it gives them oppressive control of the labor force. When workers lose their job, they lose not only their income but also health benefits coverage–for themselves and their families. The alliance of two of the most powerful forces in this country–insurance and large employers–is at the root of the problem.

  • The battle continues, as the Dems destroy them selves, and a chance at the president this time, of course the Clintons are doing this on purpose to make sure Obama loses against McCain then she can cry in the 2012 election.

    Hillary is a worthless POS

  • The Dems cant enough control their own people, how would they ever do health care? Hillary is a socialist

  • little bear:

    What Happened to Health Care Reform?

    PAUL STARR | November 30, 2002

    It was one year from euphoria to defeat. On the evening of September 23, 1993, I sat in the gallery of the House of Representatives for President Clinton’s speech introducing the administration’s Health Security plan. For those of us who had worked on it, this was the climax of a long, intense, and not always easy collaboration. I had been one of about ten people on the health policy team in the White House who had written and rewritten the plan after the cast of hundreds had left. Now the president had the nation’s attention focused on ideas we deeply believed in, and he spoke with tremendous force.

    At first it seemed Clinton would move the country. The next morning, Stanley Greenberg, the president’s pollster, crowed that the overnight surveys showed we were winning two-thirds approval. Commentators were saying that no matter how the battle over details might work out, the president had established the right principles and challenged Americans to a great, historic mission. The principle of health coverage for all was an achievement, wrote A.M. Rosenthal of the New York Times, that Clinton could already nail to the wall.

    A year later, almost to the day, Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell pronounced health care reform dead. The funeral was private; no crowds gathered in mourning. While opinion surveys continued to show strong support for the ingredients of reform, the complexity of the plans and onslaught of criticism had even left many supporters bewildered and uncertain. The opposition had focused attention on what those with good health care might lose. Commentators turned on the president. On the eve of the midterm election, Joe Klein told the CBS Evening News audience that the president had led the country into a blind alley with his grandiose reform plan.

    Of course, not just the Clinton plan was defeated. Every other proposal–the Cooper, Chafee, Moynihan, Mitchell, Cooper and Grandy, and mainstream group plans, to mention only the most prominent, consensus-building efforts–died in Congress. The question is as much why the center failed as why the president did. Only a few weeks earlier Senator Bob Packwood had told his Republican colleagues that now that they had killed health care reform, they had to make sure their fingerprints weren’t on it. Joe Klein’s reaction was not unusual: The Republicans enjoyed a double triumph, killing reform and then watching jurors find the president guilty. It was the political equivalent of the perfect crime.

    The collapse of health care reform in the first two years of the Clinton administration will go down as one of the great lost political opportunities in American history. It is a story of compromises that never happened, of deals that were never closed, of Republicans, moderate Democrats, and key interest groups that backpedaled from proposals they themselves had earlier co-sponsored or endorsed.

    It is also a story of strategic miscalculation on the part of the president and those of us who advised him. In 1993, 23 Republican senators, including then-Minority Leader Robert Dole, cosponsored a bill introduced by Senator John Chafee that sought to achieve universal coverage through a mandate that is, a mandate on individuals to buy insurance. Nearly every major health care interest group had endorsed substantial reforms–grandiose ones, in fact. The American Medical Association (AMA) and Health Insurance Association of America (HIAA), the two great, historic bastions of opposition to compulsory health insurance, both went on record in support of an employer mandate and universal coverage. Even the U.S. Chamber of Commerce endorsed an employer mandate, as did many large corporations. Other groups came out variously for reform options that ran along a spectrum from Canadian-style, single-payer programs on the left to managed competition and medical savings accounts and radical changes in tax policy on the right. Under the circumstances, it was easy to believe the country was ready for substantial reform and that a market-oriented, consumer-choice approach to universal coverage, positioned in the center, could become a platform for consensus.

    It was easy to believe, but it turned out to be wrong.
    —————————————————————————————————————
    That’s what happened to Hillary’s Healthcare Plan – the Insurance companies, etc, the media, the Republicans hug her out to dry, how dare the First Lady (a mere woman) have brains?

  • Jump right in all of you volunteer bloggers for Obama’s campaign. This can be said the same about Obama. At this time, a Clinton/Obama ticket would win the Democratic race for President/Vice President. He doesn’t have the experience. After serving as V. Pres. he would be a fine canidate for Pres.
    Many many folks trancended race to support Obama. With his support of Pastor Wright and Obama’s entitlement, he has slapped the public in the face. the whites were transcending race….He had not.

  • Hey, little bear with the little brain – where did you get from my comment that I was a Hillary supporter? Nothing could be further from the truth, I have been for Obama since day one. And when I said, “Even the Republicans agree….” I meant to point out that THE REPUBLICANS ARE THE LEAST LIKELY TO SUGGEST THIS, since it is true and since it works to their benefit. Sorry if it was too subtle for you.

    There’s nothing wrong with being passionately for your candidate – but when you reach the point where you read 3 lines of someone’s comment and hammer out an angry response, you’ve crossed over the border between passionate and obsessive.

  • Tim, don’t quit your day job. One-liner stand-up comedy is not working for you. But if you want to learn how to crack political jokes, maybe something along the lines of McCain being the new poster-boy for the real estate industry—due to his familiarity with crashing and burning would work better for you. Or you could go with the classic, when they remake the Wizard of Oz, they should replace “the Lion who’s afraid of his own tail” with ‘a Cowboy who’s afraid of a horse”—to guarantee Bu$h a job after he has to move out of the White House. Maybe the old stand-by about “The NRCC is the one thing on the planet that makes Bear Stearn’s cash-flow chart look good.”

    We could fall back on doing a stand-up routine for the SBC about McCain being a closet Presbyterian or Rudy Giuliani’s evil mini-me twin or even a Nikita Khrushchev clone.

    Have you told your knuckledragging friends yet that McCain is really a one-man sleeper-cell for the Bu$h/bin Laden Alliance, or that the concept of a hundred-year war is actually a plagiarism of the model of islamofacist jihad?

  • it’s not ridiculous at all–you say yourself what a strong partisan she is–
    how is “postpartisanship” and “unity” at all helpful
    for what’s supposed to be a oppositonal party?

    how does what Obama advocates help further Democratic aims and ideals, esp when it’s clear the GOP will not do it, and doesn’t believe in bipartisanship?

    these are fundamental questions–and i think much of the Dem base sees it that way too.

  • PJ – What happened to healtcare reform

    shillary SCREWED IT UP SO BADLY that they never talked about it again for the next 7 years!!!!!

    Sorry – she did a piss-poor job, showed no leadership or ability to work with anyone else. In fact, if you didn’t know better, YOU WOULD THINK SHE JUST SABOTAGED IT!

    What a great excuse not to come back and talk about it again.

  • many of us see Obama as running away from the party —
    and as denigrating our Dem fights and strengths and victories, etc. That he values unity and postpartisanship more than providing for and fixing this country, or getting us healthcare, etc…

    That his constant preface of “we have to come together” to do things is false–and actually ensures defeat policywise, etc.

  • I can’t pretend to know what’s going on in Hillary Clinton’s head. I’m not sure I want to know. But she acts if she doesn’t give a damn if she destroys the Democratic Party, possibly because she feels she is entitled to the nomination. But then Barack Obama had to appear on the scene and throw a monkey wrench into her carefully made plans. She acts like an angry kid who’s had her favorite toy taken away from her,and her attitude seems to be, “If I can’t have it, you can’t either!”

    I don’t understand why The Powers That Be in the Democratic Party don’t take her aside and talk facts to her. Are they afraid of her and her husband?

  • With all due respect, little bear, I tend not to pay any heed to screeds that makes use of name-calling, exclamation points and upper-case letter in so promiscuous a manner — any more than my wife and I listen to our children whenever they scream at us for thwarting their desires, which of course is almost always due to some inherent flaw or perceived shortcoming on our part.

  • The writer is trying to make the distinction between intentionally wrecking the Democratic Party and doing so inadvertently as a casualty of her collossal ego. What matters most is the end-result. Are we going to convict her of manslaughter of the Democratic Party instead of premeditated murder? Clinton is out on a limb. Most dictators share with her the conviction that they are the only ones who know what’s best for everyone else. Why let a pesky thing like democracy get in the way? But I have never come across a journalist who’s pointed put that Saddam Hussein was not entirely blameworthy because, after all, he was only doing what he thought best.

    Hillary has shown herself to be a very scary person, with the gutter fighting she is willing to do, the civil discourse she is willing to discard, to make sure the benighted voters don’t face a choice bewteen Obama and McCain. What kind of a President would she be with such an astonishing conception of herself.? Gees, Mrs. Clinton, please don’t bomb Oregon when you are President because we failed to see it your way. Clinton is skating right at the edge. How can we trust her to know when to stop the scorched- earth treatment of her opponents? Seeing what she has done to Obama, Republicans start shaking in your boots, because maybe

  • Why is it that Obama gets a free ticket, Rev. Write, Passport issue, Does not ware an American flag pin, can call his grandmother a typical white women, his wife had never been proud to be an American until he ran for president,does not really answer any issues, is it because we do not want to be called racist, his black so we need to give him a free pass due to his black ancestor’s, he must of had some slaves in his back ground. GET OVER IT. He is taking you all for a ride and laughing all the way to the white house.

  • Guys lets deal with reality, Obama is the winner and the right guy for the job, the muslim stuff is false, the Rezko stuff is false and the Wright stuff is false, the media has been trying to distort him for months and the Wright stuff proved it, the full sermons aren’t hateful and they aren’t racist, he raises a lot of legit arguments.

    The dem party is risking not only defeat but a split and/or potential irrelevance, we are running against a third Bush term, that is all McCain is, in a year where the GOP party is falling apart, and we can’t coalesce behind the frontrunner long enough to win? What is the point of the party then, say what you will about the GOP, they are a terrible party for governing the country, but they are good at running campaigns they know when to fall in line long enough to win. Face it if we lose again that’s pretty much it for the party. If Hillary continues this fight into denver and Obama comes out unelectable then the party will suffer, if Hillary steals the nomination the party will suffer.

    Hillary supporters have to ask themselves what is more important, beating McCain or beating Obama?

  • Hillary has every right to fight this fight. The Clintons are good at this process and campaigns get dirty that is what happens. If this didn’t happen no one would have spent any time debating over race etc. Both of these candidates are strong but as others have said before shouldn’t we examine both their records as we move towards the nomination? The nomination process is usually completed by the Summer, that is months away. Maybe we can all calm down a little and let the rest of the states a chance to vote!!

    For the women, who are blogging please think as a minority it took us years to get the vote. In fact the people who fought for Blacks to get the vote, were the same people who fought agst women in getting the vote. So, what are we doing? When are women going to back one another? When will we stop the sexism, the hatred focused on us? Sure, Hillary isn’t perfect but who is? She is incredibly bright, hard working and has many years of experience.

    Are we about to let the media and the pundits tell us when this race is over? How to pick our nominee or are we willing to allow the process to move forward naturally?

  • @Meg,

    she has every right, but does it help the party or the country, no, it merely insures a McCain presidency and a collapse of the party. So I ask you is it more important to beat Obama or McCain?

  • 1) It’s quite possible that the HRC camp sees this brawl as a “toughening up” of the likely candidate (Obama) in anticipation of the upcoming and expected brutality of the campaign against the Republicans.

    2) The HRC camp’s attempts to re-do the Michigan and Florida primaries are a perfect example of selfishness on the part of the Hillary camp. The DNC told its branches in those states to back off. They didn’t, and they suffered the consequences. Obama, the uniting candidate, went along with the national party, while it is clear that Hillary, in an effort to gain some ill-gotten votes (I say ill-gotten because Obama wasn’t even on the ballots in those states, so by showing up on those ballots HRC would have effectively cheated her way to those votes), attempted to get the delegates from those states recognized, which is essentially a big “fuck you” to those states the DNC was trying to protect (I mean, come on – NH and IA have nothing else going for them; people should know well enough to leave them alone). It’s fortunate that the Dems in those two states saw the error of their ways and saw through HRC’s rather devious scheming and decided not to do a re-vote.

  • So, little bear – have you figured out yet that I’m not nearly the only one who finds your method of expressing yourself less than effective? If you actually are an Obama supporter – and I have no reason to suspect that you aren’t – then maybe you should study the way he communicates, and think about why he does it that way, rather than indulging in a lot of self-satisfied shouting and name-calling.

    The thing is – if you are actually trying to get people to take you seriously, listen to what you have to say, and maybe change their minds, you have to talk with them in a way that they can listen to. The only people who will listen to the kind of language you use are other people who use the same methods – and they will only listen to you if you say exactly what they are already saying. So in effect it is as if you have taken your laptop and a mirror into an echo chamber.

    I hope you take this advice seriously, because I like to have effective allies. Otherwise, I will mostly just scan right past any of your comments, much as I have learned to do with “Tim” and “Comeback Bill.” On blogs at least, people who are annoying all the time and never have anything new to say eventually end up being ignored.

  • @ everyone who portrays at least a modicum of thought, doesn’t use weak one-liners, and types with some sense:

    blogs, their comments, and the rest of the Internets (to use a non-expression used by our “illustrious” current leader) are, for the most part, a reflection of most of the spectrum of humanity. Inevitably, we are going to get folks who bat for the other side (not gays, but here I refer to Republicans), people who refuse to correct their less mature ways (even if multiple individuals have already tried to remedy their methods of expression), and the rest of it. Most of these less-desirable individuals don’t care that they will be ignored, and being replied to won’t change their attitude or their methods. I know you already understand what I’m saying, but I would also like to recommend that you avoid wasting your time not only reading, but especially replying to such individuals; their remarks will remain on the blog, if only as evidence of the detritus of the human condition.

    Let’s continue our civil conversations sans input or even recognition of these other inane comments, shall we?

  • Hillary! were are those snipers in the hills around the airstrip? Hillary Quote: “I went to 80 countries, you know. I gave contemporaneous accounts, I wrote about a lot of this in my book. You know, I think that, a minor blip, you know, if I said something that, you know, I say a lot of things β€” millions of words a day β€” so if I misspoke, that was just a misstatement,” she said.
    Finally, the dishonesty is being unmasked.
    Hillary Signed on a dotted line to not vote in Michigan and Florida. Hillary Lied about NAFTA., Foreign Policy. In 1996, she toured Texas to promote NAFTA, In 1998, she visited Davos, Switzerland to thank corporations for mounting “a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA.” In her memoir a few years ago, she touted NAFTA as one of her husband’s big successes. And in 2004, she told reporters that “NAFTA has been good for New York and America.”
    Bill Clinton sexual encounters, The Clintons Whitewater scandal, LIED to Ohio, Texas and other states to get votes. And the people still loves Hillary. WOW! WOW! WOW!

  • Hillary has it just right….she carried the big states and she carries the core democrates.

    Obama is a house of cards and the candidate that is being propped up by those who want to rule “through” him. It’s a real shame the American people who are being mislead by the media to vote for him, don’t see this.

    People should watch foreign news – they tell it like it is. What a joke the American media is – afterall they are controlled $$$$ by the Republicans. At least the other countries know how to elect a woman and support her.

    I for one do not want an “angry” man in charge searching for this roots and identifying with a Church like Trinity and Wright. Let’s not forget Meeks, Ayers and Rezko.

    Go Hillary!

  • Is it only because she’s numerically unlikely to win the nomination that no one mentions how the republicans will just as happily (if not more happily) smear Clinton too all day, every day, right up until the election? Do you think they aren’t prepared for that? Sure, they’re prepared to smear Obama, but at least they have had to work on that. For her, they’ve got it all ready to go, they just add to the folders when the new stuff comes in.

    Now, this doesn’t mean anything one way or the other, I just get sick of hearing how he’s not been “vetted” and she has. She hasn’t. Whoever the nominee is will be smeared, day in and day out. There’ll be new stuff on her, too, not just rehashes (heck, the library funding, the Paul case, the fact that most of Rezko’s trial mates have supported her). As many people who won’t vote for a highly qualified black man? Well, there are likely to be just as many people who are unlikely to vote for a woman when push comes to shove (and I’d bet a lot of those people are the same people), so that’s sort of a wash too.

    The only difference I see is that if she’s the one that they’ll be able to use in McCain’s commercials, touting his experience.

  • Hilary Clinton has run a fantastic campaign. She has come back repeatedly and held it roughly even in a very competitive race that everyone thought would be over long ago. A lot of people have given her a lot of money and a lot more people have given her their votes and their support.

    Hilary owes her constituency an honest run at Pennsylvania. And then I think the writing will be on the wall. Let’s withhold our condemnations and assumptions of malevolent intent … If only out of the sheer admiration for a stellar contender.

  • I’ve been gone for about four months, travelling and unable to post or even read as much as here as I’d like…NPR was my one connection with the world there for awhile… But the only reason I comment here tonight is to say with shame, and frankly a bit of fear, that we Dems are in trouble. Before I left for my trip, there was respectful discourse between tow groups of people that, in all actuality, were really the SAME group of people, but with some slightly different ideas about how to achieve the MAIN goals.

    Now, upon my return, I’m incredibly disheartened to read far too many comments that sound just hateful to each other. I’m sorry, but maybe I missed the boat and I’m just a naive little 34-year old idealist… I thought we were on the same side.

    Now, some Hillary supporters and some Obama supporters sound like Bill O’Reilly or Sean Hannity. How can this be adding anything productive to the campaign.

    Danp said it perfectly at all the way back at #8.

    It’s become a mud-fest, with unimportant and emotionally charged rhetoric instead of valid talking points about ways to improve the country. When’s the last time we heard about the candidates health care plans, education reform, or even their economic plans??? I don’t give a rats a$@ about Rev. Wright or Geraldine. I want to know who is going to be able to lead us in a direction worth going.

    It really makes me sad… seriously. I honestly thought this one was going to be different. I guess I really am naive…

    Thanks to those posters here who have kept to the high road and continue to discuss and debate rationally. I enjoy reading your comments and feel as though I’m better informed because of them.

  • This is getting beyond stupid. First, most of what Obama’s side is throwing back at the Clintons is fact. I think we *all* know that it’s a fact that Bill had an affair with Monica. And now we know it’s a fact Hillary lied about her stand on NAFTA thanks to official papers and there is video proving she lied about having to run from a plane in Bosnia.

    What more evidence to people need to see that the Clintons will try and do anything and everything to get what they want?

    For Carville to call Richardson Judas for not supporting Clinton is about the most immature thing he could have done. Really? He’s being a traitor for choicing what he believes is best for the country and the people over what his friends want? Last time I checked, though it has gotten a bit blurred during this administration, the President is supposed to represent the people and be there for the people, not because of a feeling of entitlement. All Carville has proven is that those supporting her do NOT have the best interest of the country and people in mind but rather their own careers.

    And for Bill Clinton to question, albeit subtly, Obama’s patriotism is nothing short of channeling Bush. Right now there is no difference between the Bushes and the Clintons – do whatever it takes, legal or not, to get control.

    Quite frankly, I think it’s time for someone to raise all the unanswered questions from the Hillary’s involvement with Whitewater as that is a major concern in regards to who is running this country.

  • 149 – Quatrain Gleam:

    Thank you for our reasoned and calm remarks on of the few on this blog. Whoever gets the nomination at this point will have to contend with and equal number of disappointed, passionate supporters of the other candidate — something the Obama supporters don’t seem to understand, or if they do, they simply demean and discount Hillary’s supporters. There is less than 1% difference today in the popular vote for the 2 candidates. This race is not over and will probably go through the end of the primary season — as it should so that all voters in our country have the opportunity to participate in one of democracy’s greatest gifts – the vote. Obama had his chance to take her out and wrap up the nomination in both the Super Tuesday and Texas/Ohio primaries — but he failed to do it so is not entitled to an early crowning as the nominee.

    What saddens me the most is that the Hillary bashers don’t seem to realize that they are simply re-treading the hate from the republican right that’s been thrown at her forever. Yet, she is still standing, still reaching across the aisle and working with some of her harshest critics to pass critical legislation that helps the less-educated and less- wealthy in our society. That speaks to me of a true leader – one who has actually overcome hate and belligerent words to achieve something for the greater good.

  • I believe I read somewhere that Bill Richardson was taking a brave stand as a model to other super delegates who want to vote for Obama but are afraid to. I read that before the Judas remark, and its implied threats.
    The tactics the Clinton’s use to promote themselves, at the cost of the American people whenever necessary, are becoming more and more apparent. I just hope this backfires on them, as it should. The sooner the better, because by legitimizing McCain’s type of patriotism (fight wars for 100 years, until we’ve killed and maimed all our young people, and alienated everyone around the world) they are seriously jeopardizing what should have been an easy win for the democrats. Actually, if Bill had stepped down after he was impeached and allowed Gore to step in, we’d still be a Democrat run country today.
    I do believe that setting an example of honesty, grace, altruism, commitment to something outside of yourself are all presidential qualities. I can’t wait until Hillary is out of the race, and Obama takes the nomination.

  • “As far as I can tell, based on all available evidence, Clinton loves her country and loves her party.”

    Even if your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you wrote that I’m disappointed. Are you really entertaining the thought that there might be evidence, of any kind, anywhere, that she doesn’t? Are you suggesting we just haven’t looked hard enough? Or maybe Clinton is just hiding her true feelings.

    I use rhetorical tricks like that to bait Republicans, not to talk to friends.

    Very unlike you.

  • Its interesting the all this mudslinging started when HRC loan herself 5 mil. to keep run going. The fight got nasty and she had lost 11-12 states in a row and this was after doing bad on super Tuesday. People are missing the one thing that HRC is short of…she cant convey vision with her voice…she has a difficult time being persuasive and charismatic at the same time. Bill C. had it, Reagan had it, Obama shows he has it. One thing a president must do is convey his/her vision to the people. She motivates her supporters by getting them to hate the other guy. With Obama, she could not separate herself from him during the debates, out talk him on stump speeches and was beaten on the money side that she probably had to go to a check cashing place to get the 5 mil.

  • Meg, #141, campaigns do get dirty, but I tend to draw the law at the insidious racism the Clintons have practiced. If “the Clintons are good at this process”–ie. mudslinging and negative campaigning, that’s nothing to be proud of and nothing to praise. You are also not the first to imply that we women should back Hillary because she is a woman. I vote for who I think is the best candidate and gender has nothing to do with it.

  • oops, in comment #156, I meant “draw the line”, not “draw the law”. It’s still early in the morning and I’m working on my first cup of coffee.

  • Hilary Clinton has run a fantastic campaign.

    HRC has run a HORRIBLE campaign.

    She assumed that she’d wrap this up on Super Tuesday. She made no plans for the primaries after ST. She then lost 12 of them in a row.

    She did this from a a position of 100% name recognition and the democratic party machine behind her against an opponent who 8 months ago had zero name recognition and no organization.

    She’s run this campaign like Rumsfeld ran the Iraq war, based on rosy assumptions with no contingency plan. She assumed she’d be greeted with flowers and has been scrambling since she wasn’t. That’s the arrogance that would make her a terrible president.

  • I’m no Hillary fan, but I find it hard to believe that she’s trying to double-bank-shot to the 2012 campaign. Whoever wins 2008, it’s likely that the success or failure of their presidency will be on circumstances we don’t see today. Hardly anyone would have picked Obama as a likely candidate in 2004… you just can’t work history that way.

    That said, while I don’t begrudge her staying in the race until the “slim” becomes “none” in her chances, I really really wish she would give some thought to making sure the D candidate is positioned to win in November, instead of risking that in her effort to tear Obama down. She loses my respect every time she goes there… to the point that I’m no longer sure I could vote for her if she did somehow manage to become the candidate.

  • carville was interviewed by anderson cooper on CNN last night; carville offered quite the contrary to an apology regarding his judas comments about richardson; in fact, he said he stood by them.

    imagine that — the good governor follows his conscience and he’s accused of selling out Our Couple of the Perpetual Lies for 30 pieces of silver.

    carville, btw, looked like a “Chucky” version of an easter egg during the interview — he’s not a happy camper.

  • What is so difficult about seeing that Hilary Clinton is a liar and CANNOT EVER APOLOGIZE? No, instead she just changes words around–semantics—instead of saying, “I lied”, she says “I misspoke”. What the heck! Would she have accepted that from her husband, Bill, when he denied he ever had sex with that woman? That he ‘misspoke’. Oh come on, give the American people more credit than that. She is so egocentric that she cannot use the words: wrong, mistake, lied. It’s time people see that she will make a lot of mistakes and lie like her husband but never accept responsibility and admit she is a conniving, manipulative, lying politician, like so many others.

  • I have seen many revelent comments in this blog for both sides, but I have not seen anyone grasp the true “endgame” for both sides (especially the Clintons).
    Who has been the real power broker and leader of the Democrat party since 1992- Bill Clinton.
    Who has pretty much (over these 15 years) formed the Democrat Party Machine (or the DNC) and everyone in that machine is in his debt for their position- Bill Clinton.
    Now, in 2000 Gore pretty much had to get the nomination because he was the vice and tradition dictated he be given a chance. But really how hard did the machine work for him, hard, but who rarely activally campaigned for Gore- Bill Clinton (of course he was a bit of an embarrassment at that time).
    If Gore won then after 2 possible terms (with HRC in the Senate – getting that experience chip and news coverage) it would now (2008) be HRC turn to take her appointed nomination. But I think the machine really did not want Gore to win too badly you see since Bill would no longer be the power broker running the machine – it would have been Gore (if elected) I wonder how hard they (the machine) really tried, Gore seems quite distant to Clinton ever since- I think he knew the “fix was in”. Who remained the puppetmaster – Bill Clinton

    Now in 2004 it was dicey, too early for HRC, and Bush was too strong, but if a Democrat won that year then HRC would be out of the picture for good to run for president. What to do? Well, make CERTAIN that a liberal east coast democrat gets the nomination, folks let’s face it, anything is possible except a liberal east coast democrat winning the presidency (that is a fact show many times over). The machine simply manuvered Kerry in as a “sacrificial lamb” who’s only purpose was to do the assurred – LOSE! Who is running the DNC machine – Bill Clinton

    Now, if anyone really doubts that Bill and the machine he built and runs had ever had any other plan than to keep Bill in charge (the machine was built by him- for him, and everyone in it is beholding to him for their position). If Bill is replaced then so are they in time, and they like their power and jobs too. The only way was HRC as president, not anyone else, in fact, it would solidify them in position like no one in history.

    2008- HRC was all but anointed as the “certain” canadate for the democrat party, but the machine had not counted on BHO, that was a situation that was not in the plans – EVER! It was certain to be over by super Tuesday – not even any plans or money contingencies after that. BHO turned all the machine plans upside down- they never “saw the bolt that hit them”. The definitely want HRC to be the canadate and even better the president, but the last thing they want is BHO to be president, Gone will be Bill as the real power of his machine, gone will be the people in the machine — that WILL NOT DO— PERIOD.

    So follow me here, they have little to lose really if HRC or BHO lose in NOV., but the worst case is if BHO wins in Nov. So they will not hesitate to run this primary till the bitter end and get nasty to decrease BHO chances of winning in Nov., so what if the party is split, they are still in charge. They have to stop BHO anyway they can, they can’t be sure that McCain can stop him, but between McCain and the Clinton machine, BHO hardly stands a chance. GIVE THIS SOME THOUGHT!

    I voted for BHO in the primary, by the way.

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