Clinton in 2012? I don’t see it

Yesterday’s fun discussion focused on whether Hillary Clinton would want Barack Obama to lose in November if he’s the Democratic nominee. I said no, Yglesias said yes, Drum said no, and Chait said the question itself is missing the more important point, but he seems to lean towards yes.

Today’s question is an off-shoot of yesterday’s: is Clinton eyeing 2012 if/when things don’t work out this year? Michael Tomasky takes a look:

Clinton will be 64 in 2012. That’s clearly not too old to seek the presidency. I also don’t see any obvious heavyweight competitors on the horizon, although of course predicting something like that is dicey at this juncture. […]

If she were seen by a significant portion of Democrats as not having done all she could for Obama in 2008, she’d face massive hostility in 2010 when she started making noises about running again. So she has to be active in helping him, which of course creates a sort of double paradox: she has to work hard for the very outcome that works against her own future interests, knowing that said work is the only thing that will in fact help her future interests! Got it?

Those are all good points, but I’m not sure if it resolves the question or not.

I’m going with no, she isn’t eyeing a 2012 campaign.

First, history certainly isn’t on her side. In the post-WWII era, the only Democrat to run, come up short, and come back again to win the nomination was Adlai Stevenson six decades ago. Since then, Democratic candidates tend to get one shot at the ring. I’m fairly sure the campaign is aware of that.

Second, Clinton already faces tacit questions about the “past vs. future” dynamic, and four years from now, it will be much worse. (Talk of “Clinton fatigue” will be ubiquitous in the media.)

Third, Chait notes that Clinton’s “fanbase will remain intact,” but I’m not entirely convinced. If there’s another wide open primary, can Clinton count on keeping her activists together? Again, no matter who else runs? It would be a challenge.

And finally, the Clinton “brand” probably won’t be perceived quite the same way in future campaigns, and she has to realize this. People can debate whether or not it’s fair, but I suspect if were to poll on the Clinton “brand” among Democrats in, say, late 2006, the numbers would be extremely high (mid to high 80s? higher?). If were to take the same test now, invariably the number would be much lower, maybe cut in half. This isn’t especially surprising — the campaign has taken on too negative a tone for the name to remain intact.

This matters quite a bit. Looking back at polls from 2003, once Hillary Clinton’s name was added to the mix of 2004 candidates, she was instantly the frontrunner, by a wide margin. Some of this had to do with affection for her personally in Democratic circles, but most of this was the name. It’s also why she started the 2008 race way out in front in practically every state and national poll. By 2012, that advantage will be gone.

Whether or not she sufficiently helps Obama, or becomes a more progressive senator, is almost besides the point. I think this is Clinton’s one and only shot — and I think Clinton believes it, too.

I would have to agree, Clinton is not looking to 2012. If she was, she would have pulled out _just before_ Ohio. Played correctly, she would have probably become Senate Majority leader and had at least a 40-60 chance of making a credible run again in 2012.

But, for better or worse, I think CB is right – she sees this as her shot. Once she started complimenting St. McBush, and tried to divert attention from her blatant sniper fire lie by re-igniting the Wright stuff, 2012 dropped to 0. If McBush takes the white house in ’08, no one is going to blame Ralph Nader…

  • In the post-WWII era, the only Democrat to run, come up short, and come back again to win the nomination was Adlai Stevenson six decades ago.

    True, but that’s a bit of a misleading metric.

    First, that scenario would only happen if you had two consecutive elections in which there wasn’t an incumbent Democratic nominee preventing an open field. There have only been six of those paired elections in the post-WWII era — 1952-1956; 1968-1972; 1972-1976; 1984-1988; 1988-1992.

    And second, within that small number of applicable candidates, most were absolutely destroyed the first time out — McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis — and had no chance at redemption.

    That leaves three — Stevenson, Humphrey, and Gore. Stevenson did it. Humphrey first didn’t try, but when his heir Muskie was knocked out, he made a late try and barely failed. Gore didn’t try, but I think he would’ve gotten a rematch in 2004 in a heartbeat if he’d wanted it.

  • You are missing the point of 2012. The issue is: If she doesn’t get the nomination now, when can she? If Obama wins, it’s not until 2016 when she will clearly be too old. But, if Obama loses, she gets 2012 and the “I told you so” argument.

    Just as it was in her best interests for Kerry to lose (and she was just EVERYWHERE helping him then), it’s in her best interests for McCain to win if she’s not the nominee.

    She’s also not looking at it as “will my base stay?” She’s looking at it as, “If I can’t have a shot at it now, when is my next chance?”

    Her fallback is not in the Ted Kennedy role in the senate. It’s undermining Obama like Reagan tried to do to Ford.

  • If she ends up as the nominee this year or in 2012, it’s time for a third party.

  • I said no, Yglesias said yes, Drum said no, and Chait said the

    Yeah, and the commenters have been discussing that even before the “serious” ones among the blogging elite were.

  • Hillary is just going all out to win (now steal) this nomination right now. That’s what she knows to do. Any ideas about 2012 are just foolish and paranoid.

    Hey little bear, you got anything besides demonize shillary? You’re like one of those dolls that repeat a phrase when they are squeezed.

  • Clinton can’t try again in 2012. It’s now or never.

    For all her complaints of media bias, it was the media’s perception that she was the inevitable nominee that put her in the position she’s in today. And it’s that perception that keeps her in the race long after any other candidate would have been urged to fold. Even in the 2004 race she was described as a frontrunner up until the first votes were taken (despite publicly stating that she was not a candidate at the time).

    If she loses the nomination to Barack, she’s no longer inevitable. If she loses the general to McCain, she’ll have failed in a year that should be a Democratic blowout.

    It’s now or never. Hillary isn’t throwing the kitchen sink at Obama so she can win in 2012. She’s doing it because it’s her only chance to ever win the presidency.

  • I can see both sides of this argument. Both have merit. But no one’s mentioned the fact that she’ll be up for re-election in 2012 for the Senate also. If she decides to run President won’t she have to not run Senate? And like Edwards, possibly be out of two jobs? Or would she pull a Leiberman and run for both? I have no idea, but it is something to think about.

  • I think winning now is her main goal, but for someone who has had their eye on this prize for decades, I think it may be underestimating her to assume she doesn’t have a backup plan that includes running again in 2012. Either way, destroying Obama now, no matter how detrimental to the party, is the only way she can get ahead, so that’s what she’ll do.

    The strongest argument she’d have in 2012 is “I told you so,” and I’m afraid the press would eat it up, and 2012 puts more distance between her war votes.

    Plus, with the quality of health care Senators get, 64 is the new 45. 🙂

    I guess ultimately, I don’t think it’s her top priority, but I doubt she’s taken anything off the table.

  • I have been one of the Dems who has always said that, whoever the Democratic nominee is, I will vote for him/her. We are talking the Supreme Court, the War, the economy, and our standing in the world. We need a Democrat in the White House now. Her recent behavior has convinced me that, if by some remarkable turnaround, she becomes the nominee, I will have to walk into the voting booth, hold my nose, and vote for her.

    I don’t think she will be the nominee, however. And if Obama loses the election, I will personally work against her in 2012, if she were to run (I don’t think she will, but my opinion of her has cratered so dramatically, that I won’t rule it out)

    The problem for Clinton, however, is that Obama’s success in the general will be in spite of her, or his failure because of her. If McCain wins the Presidency, everyone will look back to this primary and rightly note that Clinton’s primary campaign was so focused on destroying Obama that she damaged him. I certainly hope that after November, the narrative will be that he succeeded in spite of her, but if not, the Democratic party will in all likelihood blame her, and I can’t say I’d blame them.

  • Of course she is planning to run in 2012 if she is not able to overturn the will of the voters. And not believing the Clintons want Obama to lose the GE is being in denial. Open your eyes. It’s quite obvious.

  • In her desire to poison the well for Obama, Hils has basically killed her own chances in 2012. Small short term gain for long term pain and pariah-hood.

    Politicians aren’t the brightest or the most honest, but they sure remember who tried to fuck them and their party over.

  • Hillary is a bold faced liar, she should never be president, been lying about BOSNIA since she started her campaign,,now she wants to talk about Obama’s pastor..she low down and dirty…I hate Liars…

  • Six possibilities listed from highest to lowest probability:

    1) She is trying to “win” the election despite losing the committed delegate count, and almost certainly the popular vote. I used the word “win” up above to be hyper fair. But let’s be honest. Just about anybody who has a sense of democratic fairness realizes that if Barack has more votes and more committed delegates he is the winner. For the supers to throw it to Hillary would be tantamount to “stealing” rather than “winning.” She can’t win in Nov with the animus this would create.

    2) She realizes that mathematically she can’t win, and so she is trying to have the vitriol between the two camps enter the mainstream. What’s to be gained by this? It could possible force Barack into taking her on as a veep to unite the party. Why does she want to be veep? She is one heart beat away. Think LBJ and JFK.

    3) She is trying to undermine his chances in Nov. so she can relaunch in 2112. After four years of Johnny we will be crying in our beer for St. Hillary of Bosnia.

    4) She realizes that mathematically she can’t win and so is trying to extend the primary season. This means Barack must campaign longer. Given that at least 3% of the angry white male population is armed and racist and wacko… he may catch a bullet. Forcing him to campaign longer increases that possibility.

    5) She is trying to split the democratic party. Note that she has also been praising McCain. Having successfully caused a schism, she strikes a secret deal with her buddy Johnny. They form a cross party ticket. The secret deal? She gets to be the party choice in 2012 when he steps aside.

    6) Given that she is a lawyer and a politician she doesn’t understand mathematical arguments or the power of numbers. She thinks only in terms of literally analogies. Ergo, she thinks she can still win thing fairly, AND capture the hearts and minds of the democratic party.

  • not until 2016 when she will clearly be too old

    LOL

    mclame is the media’s darling and he drools at the mouth, falls into senile rants, and probably wears diapers – women live an average of 10 years older.

    If the lying liars in the MSM proclaim that mclame is “presidential timber” in 2008, surely shillary can’t be considered too old.

    Of course, there are plenty of other reasons that we should not want another clinton in the WH.

  • Dale – call it like I see it – follow her track record. perhaps I should make it clearer for small-minded folks like you:

    We. Do. Not. Need. Another. Clinton. President. Ever.

    And most people that read this blog seem to agree. But go ahead – demonize others for demonizing those that choose to stand in the public limelight, misrepresent their records and accomplishments, and run for the highest public offices in the land.

  • I heard this kind of talk in 2004 and none of it was true then. Back then there was all sorts of speculation that Clinton would sabotage the race then so she would have a chance in 2008, and none of it materialized. It’s baseless crap, meant to smear her and support the false charactarization that she’s an evil manipulator. It’s petty gossip from right-wing circles. Clinton isn’t running so McCain will win and she’ll have a shot in 2012, she’s running to win now, in 2008, and she still thinks she can win.

    Clinton and Obama have both spent a lot of effort, and have both lost a lot of overzealous staffers, to make sure this race was a clean one that emphasized substance and not personality attacks. If Obama wins the nomination, I see nothing to indicate that she won’t shake his hand at the convention and campaign whole-heartedly for him. Further, based on one or two statements, her campaign seems to think that whoever wins the nomination should offer the other to be their running mate, which tells me that Clinton is considering Obama in the case that she wins.

    The point is this kind of talk is destructive and based on nothing, and what evidence is available should preclude it.

  • Well, the world as we know it ends in 2012, so I don’t think she would want to run.

  • Rian – based on nothing? Are you just blind or are you too brainwashed/stupid to look at some simple fact – SHE IS LYING

    She is also slandering Obama and has stated that mcclame is more presidential. She herself has some associates that are more racist and inflamatory than Wright (and mclame has even more – but shillary gives him a “free pass”)

    Not that I expect facts to change your ignorant opinions and empty rhetoric – after all, why would I expect more from a shillary supporter than the candidate herself. Here are some links that demonstrate less-than-good-intentions:

    Hillary’s Lies: Darfur, Rwanda, Bosnia
    Politicians lie. That’s a fact. They lie to get elected and to stay in power. Some lie about other countries so they can justify invading them. Others lie so they can portray themselves as experienced leaders.
    http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/03/24/134622.php

    Hillary Lied About China Briefings
    Sen. Clinton has made much of a September 1995 speech she delivered in Beijing, in an effort to show she is willing to get tough on China. She said in her book “Living History” that she was briefed by the State Department and the Secret Service in advance of that speech, and was even fed “intelligence information” during those discussions. The schedules don’t reflect such briefings, however…
    http://sweetness-light.com/archive/shocker-hillary-lied-about-her-china-briefings

    Hillary Clinton Again Lies about Iraq
    At the forum in Los Angeles, Hillary Clinton declared, “We bombed them for days in 1998 because Saddam Hussein threw out inspectors.” That statement was totally false. The bombing campaign had been planned for months and the inspectors were not thrown out. They were ordered out by President Bill Clinton in anticipation of the four-day U.S.-led bombing campaign.
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/02/6802/

    Clinton Lie Kills Her Credibility on Trade Policy
    What is the proper word for the claim by Hillary Clinton and the more factually disinclined supporters of her campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination — made in speeches, briefings and interviews (including one by this reporter with the candidate) — that she has always been a critic of the North American Free Trade Agreement? Now that we know from the 11,000 pages of Clinton White House documents released this week that former First Lady was an ardent advocate for NAFTA; now that we know she held at least five meetings to strategize about how to win congressional approval of the deal; now that we know she was in the thick of the manuevering to block the efforts of labor, farm, environmental and human rights groups to get a better agreement. Now that we know all of this, how should we assess the claim that Hillary’s heart has always beaten to a fair-trade rhythm?
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080320/cm_thenation/1300860

    Clinton lied about sniper fire
    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/03/25/1206207057921.html

    CBS Video Contradicts Clinton’s Story
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/24/eveningnews/main3964921.shtml

  • It’s one thing for Hillary to root against Obama in the GE if she had no hand in wounding him; it’s quite another for her to work OVERTLY to damage him for A YEAR to make him unelectable in November ’08 and think that SHE will be the beneficiary in 2012.

    If Obama wins the nomination but loses the GE, it will likely be the result of one or a combination of Hillary’s many attacks – Muslim slur emails/posts by her volunteers and blog trolls, playing the race card, attacking his experience, endorsing McCain’s experience, having her female supporters frame the democratic race as an “identity politics war between white women and African Americans”, attacking him on Rev Wright, etc.

    Many of these lines of attack would be discounted if republicans (you know, the “crazy”, racist neocons) used them, but they have added potency if raised by a fellow democrat first – and by the wife of the last democratic president no less.

    If Obama loses, Hillary will rightfully be blamed for helping keep democrats out of the white house for 12 straight years, and she will be vilified.

    Also, Hillary could try to spin her role in such a loss all she wants – African Americans would hate her guts and remember her betrayal in 2012. Under these circumstances, Hillary WILL NOT be the nominee in 2012 and her senate seat would also be under threat.

    Hillary is in a bind. If she steals the nomination from Obama, the African American community turns on her and she loses in November. If she loses the nomination and Obama loses in November, she WILL be blamed for the loss and she won’t be the nominee in 2012. African Americans will blame her for Obama’s loss and she stands no chance of getting their votes in 2012 (especially after the race-baiting). Someone else would be the nominee in 2012.

    If Hillary wounds Obama so badly that the party elders feel the need to choose another nominee for the top of the ticket, it won’t be Hillary. Look for a Gore/Obama ticket.

  • Six possibilities listed from highest to lowest probability:

    7) Hillary knows the Republican attack machine will try to tear Obama apart and she’s inoculating him from the inevitable assault. – Thanks Hil.

    ….Okay, so this is really,really improbable. Maybe we should make it number 70) instead

  • There is no 2012 for Hillary; it’s now or never, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the eternal war without end raging between Fortress Hillary (and her pet plague-rat Carville) and Camp Obama.

    It’s extremely safe to say that If Obama wins the nomination, the Clinton dynasty begins to crumble irreversibly—and an Obama presidency puts that dynasty into its grave for all eternity.

    But—if McDubya wins in November, this country is going to be so damned desperate for fundamental change from the status-quo politics in place today that a candidate like Clinton won’t even last long enough to reach Super Tuesday. She’ll implode faster than GhoulChild and UnAware Fred— combined.

  • At risk of being thought a shallow Hollywood person, I’ll point out something that I don’t like myself, but I know people well enough to know it matters:

    Hillary is not “aging well.” I was struck by this when I was looking at some video of her in the 90s, when she was First Lady, and she didn’t just “look younger,” she looked a lot younger. Given that she has apparently forsworn cosmetic surgery (good for her!), she’s going to be stuck with this fact – in fact, any attempt to “reverse time” in the operating room would serioously boomerang on her.

    This is something you notice when you are around her age: you don’t see a friend for a year and when you do…. Yoweeee!! Who is that old person?? I see it myself when I look in the mirror.

    Yes this is both agist and sexist. Ronnie the Ray Gun was never called on all the shoepolish in his hair, McCain rumbles along in his 70s and nobody says a thing, here’s poor Hillary and what am I saying…. yaddayadda. The truth is, it’s something that has to be faced. The only thing worse for Hillary would be if she was also fat.

    Don’t criticize me for saying this, I’ll agree with you all the way. But it is a factor, a product of the shallowness of Americans perhaps, but that doesn’t make it less of a factor.

  • Thanks – cleaver, glad someone else said something that is likely to take the heat off me for pointing out some basic, documentable, and verifiable truths – sure, I use the term SHILLARY, but she has earned it.

    I would not have made the points you make – not sure I fully agree, but they merit more dialog than the lies about Wright and the crap shillary is throwing at Obama.

  • Thanks Little Bear – that oped you linked is really good. Proof that her “35 years of experience” is 35 years of lies and conniving.

    1974: Hillary lost Judiciary Committee job after trying to block Nixon impeachment.

    Powerful end:

    Two decades later Bill Clinton became President. As was later to be described in the Wall Street Journal by Henry Ruth — the lead Watergate courtroom prosecutor– “The Clintons corrupted the soul of the Democratic Party.”-

  • 2 things: The Clinton brand name took another hit this afternoon: Jake Tapper is reporting that an anonymous Democratic Party official is “pursuing the Tonya Harding option.” For those too young to remember, Tonya Harding was a figure skater trying to get into the 1994 Winter Olympics whose ex-husband and another man attacked her main competitor, Nancy Kerrigan by hitting her legs with a tire iron. So at least one Democratic Party official thinks that Ms. Clinton has stepped over a serious line with today’s shenanigans.

    Also, note to little bear: no serious reader/commentor here is trying to demonize you – we’re just trying to tell you that there are more effective ways to get your message across than those you are using. If you are actually trying to change people’s minds, you have to use language they will listen to. Repeated use of “Shillary” is shrill. Providing links to pages that back up what you’re trying to say, and explainging what’s on those links – as you did up above – works.

    We don’t want you to stop being angry, just to channel your anger so that it works better to bring about the change you want. If all you want to do is make noise, we will start ignoring you. Your choice.

  • Stephen1947

    Don’t need condenscending lecture from you or anyone else – in each and every thread I post, I get people that agree and even thank me.

    shillary has earned that nickname, just like mclame/mcsame has earned his – I will be use the terms and express myself as I see fit because IT IS EFFECTIVE AND MOST HERE EVIDENTLY AGREE.

    You may think you are talking the “high road”, but you are just being a jerk – just callin’ it as I see it.

    Its not about anger – I really have none – its about using RHETORIC that matches fire with the lying liars – rhetoric that MOST HERE USE AND AGREE WITH.

    So keep your lectures to yourself – thanks for opening your orifice, but you have nothing to add. How about you just shut your hole then?

  • Is “little bear” just a schtick to inject a little levity on the site?

    In the last two days “little bear” has called other posters “idiot”, “moron”, “small minded” while tossing in humorous little mistakes — my favorite from yesterday was l.b.’s confusing “eminent” with “imminent” — and filling posts with the obligatory CAPITALIZED PARTS SO YOU KNOW IT’S A RANT.

  • Stephen1947 – LOL – like you speak for “WE”

    LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

    If you ignore me – I will be grateful! You really think you are that important!!!!!

  • pfrg – if the shoe fits – the small-minded people that accept the term “mclame” and variations of chimpy yet throw a temper tantrum when a lying liar like shillary gets her dues is LOL funny.

    AT LEAST YOU SAW THE CAPS, RIGHT!

  • Hillary Clinton is simply the most abjectly loathsome Democratic politician I can remember in my lifetime (that’s 58 years). I thought she handled her husband’s various brouhahas with class and dignity when they occupied the White House, but apparently she checked those qualities at the White House door on her way out. Now she’s a bald-faced liar and a sanctimonious hate-monger, and she shares this quality with the Bush administration: each time you think she can’t possibly do anything more awful, she does.

    What a sad, sick joke she turned out to be.

  • You see, keyboarding is a psychomotor skill that is learned through careful practice and combinations of different keystrokes.

    Eventually the fingers learn their place, first letter by letter, then short word by word, and then short phrases. This is called “chaining”

    It is usually taught with careful repetitions of carefully selected text.

    Eventually, however, one has to learn how to put some thought into what one keys! To those that can’t take the heat but love to dish it out, I am sure that mommy limits the amount of time you get to spend on the computer each day.

  • pfgr – didn’t want to swear, but count the posts in this thread that express my points (some even thank me) and look at the rhetoric that is usually accepted here when talking about neocons/repugs – shillary and her supporters have earned the right to be dealt with in similar terms.

    But if it makes you feel good being a little grammar cop and pretending to be on the high road – knock yourself out – you just make my points for me.

  • Hey, little bear – if you want to become an effective advocate for your point of view, you will pay more attention to your critics than to those who agree with you. Unless of course you only want to talk with people who agree with you and shout at everyone else. Since I’m not the only one who has criticized your style here or on other threads, I feel confident in using “we” – which doesn’t mean that I think I speak for everyone, just some of those who value the process of discussion as much as the content.

  • I have to say I’m more than a little disappointed at the reaction to my comments. I certainly didn’t expect to be called stupid or brainwashed. That should speak volumes about the person making the accusations.

    I’ll happily admit that Clinton’s claims about her experience are weak at best, and at worst, yes, she is lying about it horribly. I’ll also point out that bad experience is no substitute for solid judgment, which by comparison to Clinton and McCain, Obama has in spades.

    However, that has nothing to do with this. Is the “fact” that she is lying about sabotaging the primary for nefarious ends the only evidence against her? Honestly, is that your best argument against me? Talk about circular.

    I for one refuse to buy into the right-wing caricatures of Clinton that have been peddled by the likes of Rush Limbaugh for over a decade. Based on my until-recently pleasant experience here I would have thought that more readers here would have done the same. I plan to vote for Obama (I live in Oregon which has yet to hold its primary) but if given the choice between McCain and Clinton, Clinton is still infinitely more preferable. She’s still a war-opponent and a progressive, and it would be folly to let McCain continue all of Bush’s horrendous policies for another four years because of some petty vindictiveness that the right-wing has spent decades cultivating.

  • “Based on my until-recently pleasant experience here…” — Rian Mueller

    I hear ya, Rian. I’m hoping that this place will return to more civil, more rational discourse when this primary business is over. Till then, hang in there.

  • I doubt that Hillary has any deep plans for 2012 – her crew clearly didn’t have any plans beyond Super Tuesday, and they’ve been running desperately ever since, trying to stay ahead of the tsunami, and they haven’t shown much evidence of thinking anything out very clearly. Surely 2012 is off their their radar screen.

    (Also, what Stephen said in #29 and 38.)

  • Since I’m not the only one who has criticized your style here or on other threads, I feel confident in using “we” – which doesn’t mean that I think I speak for everyone, just some of those who value the process of discussion as much as the content.

    As another Obama backer, I’ll second that. You need to lighten up on the constant barrage of moron/idiot/jerk commentary, little bear. It’s not deserved for the Clinton folks, but you throw it around at everyone, including people who are supposedly on your side.

    You keep claiming people have thanked you for your comments. I can’t say I’ve ever seen that, but I have seen plenty of people who are tired of your insults.

    You’re not helping. You’re only making yourself look like an ass.

  • I’m still trying to find out if little bear is really an Obama supporter. All I’ve seen him do from “Day One” is mimic negative talking points that have been scarfed from other blog sites—several of which are notorious for spewing the RightSpeak of WingNuttia.

    Sprechen sie GOPer, little bear?

  • littlebear said:

    Dale – call it like I see it – follow her track record. perhaps I should make it clearer

    Oh you’ve made it monotonously clear. Your posts have little bearing on the issues.

  • @ #42: You’re not helping. You’re only making yourself look like an ass.

    Now, now, don’t be too hard on littlebear. C’mon, the best its four little brain cells could come up with was “shillary”. At least Tom, with all his terrifying energy, is pretty creative.

    So, I gotta know, littlebear. If Clinton does get the nomination (dammit), are you going to suck it up and vote Democrat, or are you going to cry in the corner, type screeds in all caps, and let McCain step in and keep burying the country we both live in?

  • I’m waiting to see if little bear has any actual creative genius tucked in behind his rants. Maybe something along the lines of “Bambi Meets Godzilla”—with “shillary” playing the “tenderized-venison-to-be.” Maybe he could get TC to write a script for it, get it aired on SNL, and give CB a few minutes on national TV!

  • Please, I’m moving to Canada if she’s running in 2012. I can’t handle anymore drama.

  • When your name comes up in the same sentence as Tonya Harding, it’s time to pack it in.

  • I hear ya, Rian. I’m hoping that this place will return to more civil, more rational discourse when this primary business is over. Till then, hang in there.

    word. Its even worse over at Shakesville. Any comment (or worse, post!) that’s even slightly critical of Clinton is immediately attacked as misogynistic (see Jeff Fecke’s post re: Clinton’s Rev. Wright comment). Very disappointing.

    I’m looking forward to the end of this nomination season. Progressive/liberal blogs that don’t rally around the Dem nominee (regardless of who it is), will lose an enormous amount of credibility and my attention (not that that really matters, of course–I may be opinionated but I’m not delusional about my importance).

  • beep52, @49

    You heard it here first 🙂 “Tonya Harding tactics”, as applied to Clinton, was the term I used a while back (two weeks? less? time moves at a different pace in the ether). I’m still proud of myself over having come up with that description though, if it turns out that Clinton campaign reads this blog and got that idea from me, I’ll go and look for sack and ashes pronto.

  • Hey littlebear – I didn’t intend to cause a pile-up like that on you, and for that I apologize. For what it’s worth, I think you are honest, but a little misguided in your enthusiasm. One of the things you said that I thought was honest was that you thought I was condescending to you. I didn’t think I was, but if that’s the way you heard it, then it has some reality. I suspect it’s not the first time you’ve tasted condescension either.

    Part of the condescension you heard comes from the fact that I’m a writing/oral presentation tutor at MIT – working with really brilliant young people who haven’t yet learned much about how to communicate effectively. I make an effort with each student to try to start from where s/he is, but tend to have pretty much the same things to say to most of them about how to improve these skills. Something that sounds like condescension probably infects my repetition of these points.

    I’ve also spent about 40 of my 60 years, on and off, involved in various change-the-world organizations, and have been in lots of meetings – and from that experience I know what kind of talk convinces people and what kind makes them stop listening. You’ve heard some of that experience from me.

    It’s worth considering that your approach may be partly necessary, given the ocean of either/or, black/white, slash with soundbites political discourse we’ve all been swimming in for the past 2 or 3 decades. A guy named John Dolan over at Alternet argues that the polite style favored by some of us older folks may be sometimes counterproductive – check it out:
    http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/80507/. I can’t say I completely agree with him, but I’m tempted to adopt one of his slogans as my new sig line – “there are two kinds of Publicans: millionaires and suckers.”

    The thing is the mostly prevailing style here on CBR tries to be more serious and thoughtful than on sites with heavier traffic, even though as you can see most of us give in to the temptation to name-calling and other behaviors that are emotionally satisfying right now, but not usually very effective in winning hearts and minds. Still, we have an ideal, and we mostly strive for it, and we get critical when commentors like you seem to disregard that ideal. You’ve seen that in the comments about your bulldozer style above. If you can’t adapt yourself at least partly to this ideal, you will eventually be ignored. And that is worse than condescension. I hope you’re adaptable.

    “There are two kinds of Republicans: millionaires and suckers.” John Dolan, AlterNet.

  • No, she isn’t running for 2012 because Obama will be President and will easily win re-nomination. Should his administration turn out to be a disaster, the country will elect a Republican instead of her in 2012. I think she is doing everything possible to destroy Obama and win the nomination this year by superdelegate coup. This year is her chance not 2012. Failing that she is hoping to weaken Obama enough and close the gap that he has to pick her as VP. It’s not inconceivable to me that she might even run as an independent this year claiming the Democratic nomination process was unfair due to it counting caucuses and red states and not counting states that violated the rules.

  • I’m an Independent who is leaning for McCain. On this topic, HRC clearly sees that the only way she can win the nomination is to split the Democratic party horribly. Just the fact that she plans on having fewer delegates and fewer popular votes yet still hopes to get the Superdelegates to put her over tells you that she does not think she has to be judged like anyone else. Her strategy is to damage Obama without having her name on it. She’ll rally the women and get a sizeable chunk of them to abandon Obama in the general election. When he loses to McCain she’ll say it is proof that he is unelectable. This will keep Obama from being viewed as the leader of the democratic party since he would have had his shot. HRC then swoops in in 2012 to face off against a 75 year old who has had to deal with a bad economy and the Iraq albatross for most of his term. Not saying it will work but HRC has a core of support who see her when they look in the mirror. They will do anything to support her.

  • 2012 is not a viable option for H.Clinton. In 2012, the thousands of new Democrats of all ages that Barack has inspired will be the new Dem. apparatus. Murtha & John Glenn will be dead, & she will be in a climate such that joining Lieberman in a third party option will look good. Her career as any kind of a Dem. party leader is on the line here. Here & now. She does have the potential to be a great long term Senator. I hope she choses party loyalty.

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