‘State primary results do not necessarily translate into general election victories’

There are a variety of annoying angles to the Democratic presidential race, but one of the more jarring elements is the fact that we’re seeing the same arguments played out, over and over again. Some of these questions have been played out repeatedly, and yet we seem to forget the particulars.

At the top of the list is the notion that primary results are a reliable predictor of general-election results. If a candidate win’s a state’s primary, the argument goes, it means he or she is more likely to win it in November. If a candidate loses a primary, he or she is likely to lose the state in November.

We’ve been down this road before, and apparently, we’re headed down it again.

Reflecting on her victory in the Pennsylvania primary, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on Wednesday neatly summed up the chief political rationale of her enduring candidacy.

“I won the states that we have to win — Ohio, now Pennsylvania,” Mrs. Clinton said on CNN about her successes over Senator Barack Obama, in one of her six appearances on morning news shows. “It’s very hard to imagine a Democrat getting to the White House without winning those states.”

There are compelling reasons to vote for Clinton, but this isn’t one of them.

The NYT noted, for example, that “exit polling and independent political analysts offer evidence that Mr. Obama could do just as well as Mrs. Clinton among blocs of voters with whom he now runs behind. Obama advisers say he also appears well-positioned to win swing states and believe he would have a strong shot at winning traditional Republican states like Virginia. According to surveys of Pennsylvania voters leaving the polls on Tuesday, Mr. Obama would draw majorities of support from lower-income voters and less-educated ones — just as Mrs. Clinton would against Mr. McCain, even though those voters have favored her over Mr. Obama in the primaries.”

Moreover, when it comes to predictive indicators, “state primary results do not necessarily translate into general election victories.”

Obama, for example, won in Maryland, Vermont, and Illinois, three reliably Democratic states. It is, to borrow a phrase, “very hard to imagine a Democrat getting to the White House” if the party’s nominee loses states like these. But to assume that Clinton can’t win Maryland, Vermont, and Illinois is silly; just because she lost the primaries there doesn’t mean she’d lose them in the general election.

Jeff Greenfield had a good item about this back on March 11 (I mention the date only to emphasize how long we’ve been mulling over the same topic), which noted that primary results cannot “provide a guide to the fall campaign.”

I offer this blindingly obvious point to suggest why it is mostly a fool’s errand to find autumn portents in winter and spring primaries. To be even more blindingly obvious, the great majority of voters do not participate in the primaries…. Any extrapolation about voting blocs based on primary results has to confront that elemental difference.

Jonathan Chait added yesterday:

As my colleague Chris Orr has just burst into my office to point out — don’t be alarmed, he does this several times a day — right now Obama is having a hard time winning blue collar whites on the economy in large part because he has an opponent with a virtually identical economic platform. When he has an opponent who’s tethered himself to President Bush’s highly unpopular economic policies, winning over blue collar whites on the economy will get a lot easier. Extrapolating from primary dynamics to general election dynamics is very dicey business.

And Josh Marshall and the TPM team pored over some of the available data.

There’s not a lot of good or consistent polling state by state yet. But we were looking today at what polling data is out there. Clinton is running a bit better against McCain in the rustbelt states that sit just above the Mason-Dixon line. That’s principally Ohio (see Ohio polls) and Pennsylvania (see PA polls). The state where you see this pattern more wildly than anywhere is in Kentucky. (See KY polls). Clinton loses to McCain there but respectably, whereas Obama simply gets slaughtered. SurveyUSA has polled the state three times in the last eight weeks and the last two times McCain beats Obama better than two to one.

Kentucky isn’t really an issue in itself. It’s highly unlikely either Democrat would win it. But it’s the best example I’ve seen where Clinton appears to run dramatically stronger than Obama.

But this isn’t the whole story. In a whole arc of territory stretching from the Great Lakes through the upper Midwest down into the inter-mountain West Obama consistently runs stronger than Hillary. Some of these states are ones Democrats really must win in order to win a general election — states like Iowa, Wisconsin and Michigan.

Others are states red states that have been trending blue but which Obama appears able to put in play while Hillary can’t. Colorado is a good example. The last four polls of the state show Obama tied or ahead of McCain while McCain beats Hillary handily. The most recent poll — April 21st — has Obama beating McCain by 3 points while McCain is beating Hillary by 14 points.

Given the spottiness of state by state polls, for now it’s best to watch the national popular vote polls, which show the two Democrats basically even in how they’d face McCain. But there are differences. They run better in different parts of the country. But the ‘big state’ argument is just malarkey, an artifact of the spin necessities of the post-Super Tuesday campaign.

I suspect this will remain a lingering question, but it shouldn’t.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the PA primary was, I believe, restricted to registered Democrats only. Had independents been allowed to vote in the primary, especially when there was no Republican contest simultaneously, there is a good chance Obama would have won. Why has this point been summarily ignored by all?

  • When Obama wins Alaska, Idaho, and Kansas, Clinton is quick to point out that primary results do not translate into general results.

    When Clinton wins Ohio and Pennsylvania, Clinton is quick to point out that primary results translate into general results.

    It’s really quite telling.

  • You’re absolutely right except in your assertion that “[t]here are compelling reasons to vote for Clinton,” which I think explains why this argument continues to recur. Obviously Clinton’s suggestion that Obama would lose the big, reliably Democratic states that she has won in the primary– or even the less reliable ones– is bogus, but having no more plausible rationales for her continued candidacy, she has to say something. Even transparent nonsense like this is better, from her perspective, than candidly admitting that she really has no good reason to continue running at this point.

  • Yes, but….All the goals you have scored against us now count FOR us, because…we said so, and….er….

    I posted the link yesterday, but it’s worth the read if you missed it. Writing on Kos, Hunter defines the rules of ClintonBall, which you’re not supposed to notice, because you’re a rube from some state that doesn’t matter.

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/23/54624/9063/994/501398

    Like many others, what pisses me off is the assumption by Billary and her media surrogates that I am an idiot who doesn’t understand what’s going on. I understand perfectly, thank you. Don’t insult my intelligence.

  • I don’t understand why everyone is so fixated on the idea of who won the most popular votes.

    Why should anyone care?

    If the Yankees and the Marlins are in the World Series and the Yankees win 3 games by the same score of 4-3 and the Marlins win 3 games by the scores of 18-2, 19-1 and 15-4 then they go into game 7 each needing a win. No one says the Yankees are down by 36 runs so they need to outscore the Marlins by 36 to win. All the Yankees have to do is score more runs in game 7. That is the way the game is played.

    I don’t care how many votes everybody got. I care how many delegates each person has. THAT IS THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED

    Now, none of this really matters when trying to figure out who will have the best chance of beating McCain.

    Does anyone really think that Obama won’t beat McCain in New York or Clinton won’t beat McCain in Illinois?

    Personally I think that the most conservative or moderate Democrat running would have the best chance in the general election. However, that person probably could not win the nomination. So my theory will never be tested.

    Unfortunately, there is no easy way to figure out who would have the best chance. All any of us can do is make an educated guess.

  • I completely agree with your analysis of the popular vote, neil. Well said. I would add that the popular vote is also completely unattainable because 4 states are discounted completely. And there is a world of difference between closed and open primaries, primaries that occurred when other candidates were still in the race, primaries that occurred when the GOP race was still competitive, and more.

    There simply is no meaningful way to attain the popular vote, other than say, by looking at the number of elected delegates each candidate has.

  • People make stupid extrapolations from primary results all the time. The day after a legislative primary, some fool will try to argue that Candidate A will obviously beat Candidate B in the general because Candidate A got more votes in the primary. Never mind that Candidate B was unopposed while Candidate A was in a race that attracted more voters. This kind of idiotic interpretation happens every election year.

  • it occurs to me that something important may be happening in this torturous primary process. the process is too long. one candidate is now intent on destroying the front runner. the so-called leadership of the Democratic party remains silent as the process threatens to disembowel the party and alienate voters.

    maybe the “something important” is a realization that America needs a new party. two years ago the dems were given a chance in Congress to change the direction of the country, and to challenge Bush and his fellow bandits. they refrained from leadership. during this primary season the dems had the opportunity to offer America some hope and confidence. they are determined instead to form a circular firing squad. and the so-called leaders and elders of the party remain silent.

    the Obama campaign has given voice to a long dormant vision of a renewed America, and this vision is not going to be dormant any longer. such a hopeful vision, once associated with the Democratic party is scorned by the current party machinery, because the current machine has lost its way and no longer believes in democracy, equality, or social progress.

    if Obama is shut down, or more likely, if the party machinery continues to allow him to fend for himself (in their silence) while Hillary plays on racist stereotypes, invokes terrorism fears, and continues to do everything she can not just to win, but to destroy him. (and he can not really strike back…imagine how reactions to the black man attacking the white woman would play out) ….
    if Hillary and the machine prevail, it may be time for progressive Americans to consider other options. maybe that is what is happening.

  • The NYT had an article (I couldn’t find it when I searched their site just now, however) showing how both Clinton and Obama would likely beat a republican challenger (I don’t remember if it was a generic Republican or McCain), but they would win in different ways.
    As TPM alludes,Clinton takes Florida, and a couple other big ones that Obama is not predicted to do well in.
    Obama takes a broader swath of lower population states, including more in the west.
    Depending on the nominee (Obama most likely), He and Dean should coordinate efforts to win back disaffected voters.
    Unfortunately, Florida may once again turn out to be a key state, in this regard, at least.

  • Why doesn’t Obama just give up?

    He has too many negatives. Maybe he could win the primary, but there is no way that he could win the Presidential election. Obama really should support Hillary.

    Hers’ a list of items that he has to fight about with McCain:
    1.)Reverend Wright: He still is supporting this man. Obama compares him to an old uncle. Has anyone seen this man’s videos? It is frightening.

    2.)Louis Farrakhan: Reverend Wright’s church, Osama’s church, supports Farrakhan. Farrakhan is against the Jewish people and very controversial, to say the least. He is frightening also.

    3.)Obama has a Muslim father. Obama might say he is a Christian, but Muslims don’t think so. Are there any radical Muslims anywhere that might just say to other radical leaders that Americans support Muslims? Muslims don’t necessarily hear the news properly. That would be frightening.

    5.)Elitist Attitude: McCain has already said that he thinks Obama’s comments were Elitist. That is probably the worst McCain could address. He will attack him for not being like one of the “boys”.

    6.)Racist Attitude: McCain has addressed Obama’s comments about being a “typical white person”. He talked about this on a radio station and during his famous race speech.

    7.)Unpatriotic: Not a big deal, but it will be when McCain decides to ask him again why he doesn’t wear an American flag pin. What would be the harm if Obama would just wear one to satisfy Americans?

    8.)William Ayers, the terrorist that has bombed the pentagon: Obama was on a board “The Woods Foundation” with this man. Would anyone go to a board meeting with a man that doesn’t feel one bit of remorse for bombing US buildings?

    9.)Tony Rezko, criminal from Chicago: Obama first said he hardly knew him during a debate. Now Obama has revealed he bought land from him and took money from him for his campaign. Don’t’ think that this won’t be brought up again and again. Obama knew this man for over 17 years.

    10.)Barack Hussein Obama: Even his name will become an issue. Democrats will hear the Republicans blast his name everywhere.

    It’s not one issue. This is just a sampling of the many issues that Obama would have to address again and again.

    Please, wake up America! There is no way Obama can win this general election. Stop thinking he’s the Democratic savior. He should really step aside and let Clinton win this race.

    Please think with your brain and not with your heart. Unless you want McCain to win this election, stop supporting Obama and support Senator Clinton.

    The media has painted Senator Clinton as unlikable then why is she winning in big states? She has attacked her from the start of this primary. What has she done to hurt America? What has she done not to show support for Americans. She is a Democrat and will win this election. She has been vetted and people have trashed her for years. There is no more they can throw at her. Obama has too many issues and who knows what else will become a problem.

    Wake up Americans!

  • Like it or not, Obama has alienated so many voters that he could very easily lose the GE. Many lifelong Democrats will refuse to vote for him. He’s run a vicious, racially charged campaign. He lacks experience. He’s not tough enough. Citing quotes from bloggers and reporters who are in the tank for him won’t change any of these things. When and if he has to face off against McCain and a media that doesn’t want or need him anymore. He will fold. He can’t dodge debates then. He can’t take his name off the ballot in states that he can’t win. The media has supported him only as a tool to get rid of Hillary. Once that is done he is going to face the full force of the MSM/Republican attack machine. Everyone here will scream that it’s unfair. But it will just keep happening. The Democratic voters that Obama and his surrogates have been calling stupid, racist, white trash, and too old will either stay home or vote for McCain.

  • #12 – I actually can’t tell if that is parody, satire, or if you are being serious and sincere.

    I’ve got to go with parody and satire, nobody who reads The Carpetbagger Report can possibly say that with a straight face. Can they?

  • @Very Concerned American.

    Please. Give us a break. This is about us. I am a supporter of Obama because he matches what I want for this country. I am a citizen and I will continue to fight for what I want our country to be.

    I can make a list just like yours for any politician and any public figure in existence. Then it just becomes a contest in who can fool more people into believing that their bogus list represents reality. Well, we are not going to win that way. The Republicans have a much bigger megaphone and will always do a better job of making people believe their deceitful lists of terrible things about the other guy.

    It is a pathetic kind of politics and if we don’t fight it, we will lose. So, please take your list and go home. It is obvious that you are asking me to fear the Republican attack machine and vote on that basis. Well, I don’t fear it. I hate it and I am fighting back.

    Obama ’08

  • …nobody who reads The Carpetbagger Report can possibly say that with a straight face. Can they? -Danny

    I’ve a sneakin’ suspicion VCA is quite serious and is also not a regular reader. That comment smacks of a copy and past spam campaign. The only thing that is missing is the request to forward it on to twenty friends.

  • 13. Johnny said: He’s run a vicious, racially charged campaign.

    Examples? Hell, example? You don’t seem to be watching the same primary I am.

    The Democratic voters that Obama and his surrogates have been calling stupid, racist, white trash, and too old will either stay home or vote for McCain.

    Wow, you don’t even seem to be watching the same reality. When did any of those things happen?

  • Johnny (#13),

    I find your logic lacking. First, I seriously doubt many Democrats will turn their backs on Obama when he is the nominee…Especially given that their alternative is McCain. Second, Obama is not soft. He has chosen not to throw every slimy little bit of trash about Clinton he can dig up because he understands that doing so undermines the party. And when it comes to debating McCain he will do just fine. The gloves will be off then and he will level Senator Mc-I-don’t-understand- the-economy-good.

    Further, IMO, the mdeia has done everything it can to keep Clinton—not Obama–alive because it creates ratings. Any candidate without the name Clinton would already be out and supporting the party’s nominee.

    Finally, Obama has never publicly called anyone stupid, racist or white trash. He has far too much class to resort to such gutter-speak. Now, I will admit that his bitter remark was a poor choice of words for describing the very real frustrations of working class people who have watched their jobs taken away for decades, but that is not nearly as bad as lying about landing under sniper fire in order to make oneself seem more heroic.

    So please, stop these rediculous screeching diatribes and present us some rational arguments for why the super delegates should overturn the frontrunner in this primary…you know, the candidate who has actually earned more pledged delegates from the primaries and caucuses already completed?

    And don’t give us that “he can’t win the big blue states” bildge. Any rational person can see that either of these candidates will win the “big blue” states in the general election, so what else have you got?

  • A Democrat wins Ohio and Pennsylvania in the Democratic Primary every primary season.

    In 2012, 2016, 2020, etc., a Democrat will also win Ohio and Pennsylvania during the Democratic Primary.

  • Why is everyone making big deal about Clinton winning PA. She was expected to win, what would have been exciting and wowing is if she won by more than 15 points and Obama won. Its like Clinton losing NY. For years I admired the Clintons but now that is slowly declining. She has soley made this campaign nasty, and only because she was not the over all front runner., The mere fact that people have worked with her and came to Obama says something to me. This mantality to win at all costs is something the USA does not need. We need to win this election. Her tactics and means make her an unattractive canidate, and i fear that her win just to win mantality is causing a distaste in my mouth. For her to say she has more popular votes is ridiculous. How dare she include votes win both she and Obama took a vow and gave their word that they would not include the states that started early is alarming. It left an exclamation point that she wants to win just to win! Clinton if you are the nominee for the democrats i dont want to vote for you just because you are the last result. Its like buying an open container of water with the water seal broken, but im thiursty as ever. I dont want to take you because thats the only option i have. Stop being a negative campaigner and mbe a woman and lady like and fight with your wits. i am with Obamam because he has more class than you and has played the game fair annd sqaure. I dont like that your deperation shows. All i can think of is you making a mistake in the white house and then because you want to be viewed a certain way you’ll cover it up.. I dont trust you or your tactics. Make me believe again. Obamam is better than you because he has integrity and when things get hot he deals with it and admits his faults…you instead try and devert the attention, and for people who are feeble minded and ignorant that is a good move. But i am not and i want you to behave like a woman runnign for president. Straighten up Hillary, Obama you have my vote and confidence that YOU will win the nomination!

  • There is no way on God’s green Earth that McCain will beat Obama. The only people who will vote for him is Republicans, and ‘bitter’ people who wanted Clinton. Most of America are suffering in the job/housing situation, and to put yourself or family in jeopardy because you want to prove a point by voting McCain over Obama is ignorant, immature, and downright incomprehensible. People talk now, but win the clock is clicking they are not going to risk voting McCain when the option of living in a shelter and losing cars, jobs, etc is in the mix so that is ridiculous. Obama is right, people are bitter! Who would not be if they are suffering due to Bush’s presidency and poor decisions, and how lenders are abusing others. Hillary has the experience, but she is just another canidate running for President. Obama is something different, and represents change. Hillary has every right to stay in the race, but the fact that Obama has not said anything about her marriage crisis, her ‘heroic’ visit to Bosinia, or anything elese says he is focused on the people. Hillary is deperate and it shows. Any intelligent person can see that the Republicans cannot/will not win the White House. And that is because of Bush! McCain is trailing all the canidates, so even is a small percentage of Hillarys followers come over Democrats still take the White House. Hillary do better.

  • There is no way on God’s green Earth that McCain will beat Obama. The only people who will vote for him is Republicans, and ‘bitter’ people who wanted Clinton. Most of America are suffering in the job/housing situation, and to put yourself or family in jeopardy because you want to prove a point by voting McCain over Obama is ignorant, immature, and downright incomprehensible. People talk now, but win the clock is clicking they are not going to risk voting McCain when the option of living in a shelter and losing cars, jobs, etc is in the mix so that is ridiculous. Obama is right, people are bitter! Who would not be if they are suffering due to Bush’s presidency and poor decisions, and how lenders are abusing others. Hillary has the experience, but she is just another canidate running for President. Obama is something different, and represents change. Hillary has every right to stay in the race, but the fact that Obama has not said anything about her marriage crisis, her ‘heroic’ visit to Bosinia, or anything elese says he is focused on the people. Hillary is deperate and it shows. Any intelligent person can see that the Republicans cannot/will not win the White House. And that is because of Bush! McCain is trailing all the canidates, so even is a small percentage of Hillarys followers come over Democrats still take the White House. Hillary do better.

  • Catina: “There is no way on God’s green Earth that McCain will beat Obama.”

    There was no way on God’s Green Earth that Bush would beat Gore. There was no way on God’s Green Earth that Bush would beat Kerry.

    Somehow, I don’t think God’s Green Earth has much to do with it (unless it too, has taken to voting against its own interests).

  • According to Clintonlogic, then, both she and McCain will win New York this fall, since they both won their respective New York primaries.

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