Clinton presses congressional Dems on gas-tax holiday

When Hillary Clinton first embraced John McCain’s idea for a temporary gas-tax holiday, I assumed she’d probably stumbled upon it by accident. Maybe, I thought, she was feeling a little desperate, and decided a little conservative pseudo-populism might be worth a point or two in Indiana. It never occurred to me Clinton would use the awful proposal as the basis for a week-long campaign, days before the Indiana and North Carolina primaries.

And it really never occurred to me she’d use the bogus issue to triangulate against congressional Democrats.

After several days of back and forth between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama over whether a summer-long elimination of the gas tax would help or hurt, Clinton took a hard line, asking her colleagues in Congress to take sides.

“I believe it would be important to get every member of Congress on record,” Clinton told supporters at a rally in southern Indiana. “Do they stand with the hard-pressed Americans who are trying to pay their gas bills at the gas station or do they once again stand with the oil companies?

“I want to know where people stand and I want them to tell us, are they with us or against us when it comes to taking on the oil companies?” she added.

Wait, with us or against us? Isn’t that Bush’s line?

Making matters slightly worse, the Clinton campaign acknowledged yesterday that every policy expert of every ideological stripe has described the McCain-Clinton idea as nonsense, but they don’t care.

“There are times that a president will take a position that a broad support of quote-unquote experts agree with,” spokesperson Howard Wolfson said. “And there are times they will take a position that quote-unquote experts do not agree with.”

Now policy experts aren’t to be taken seriously? What on earth has gotten into the Clinton campaign this week?

In the with-us-or-against-us formulation, it’s particularly odd that Clinton insists opponents of her gas-tax idea “stand with the oil companies.” By all indications, she has it backwards.

Economists … say the oil companies may end up the biggest beneficiaries, while the aid to families wouldn’t be enough to buy a $35 backpack.

The trouble with the plan, they say, is that oil prices are rising because of low supplies, and companies will continue to charge the average $3.60 a gallon and just pocket the money that would have gone to federal taxes.

“That’s $10 billion, and it’s going into the pockets of oil refiners,” said Leonard Burman of the Tax Policy Center in Washington. “The last time I checked, they didn’t need it.”

Supplies are “being cleared at the current price,” said Donald Parsons, an economics professor at George Washington University in Washington. “If you take away the tax, you’ll have the same number of consumers willing to buy the gas at the same total price.”

Eugene Robinson tried to cut through the nonsense, as well.

Cutting the price at the pump, even by 18 cents, would help. But economists agree that suspending the gas tax wouldn’t have a prayer of achieving that goal.

What would happen? Well, we’re heading into the summer months, when consumption of gasoline always peaks — and when refineries are making just about as much gasoline as they can. If the tax were to be suspended, gas would cost less and people would want to buy more of it. Demand would rise, supply wouldn’t — and thus the price would ultimately go up. There’s no way on God’s earth that consumers would end up saving anywhere near 18 cents a gallon.

On a related note, Brad Plumer raises an interesting point: if Clinton really believes what she’s saying here, it raises doubts about her willingness to make the necessary calls to combat global warming.

As for the political implications, Jonathan Chait, after conceding that “betting on the intelligence of the American public is a bad move,” argues that Obama’s principled, reality-based position is a political winner. I’m not so sure. What we’re likely to see is a split — high-information, well-informed voters who see the Clinton-McCain proposal as crass pandering, and low-information voters who never hear about the evidence and falsely believe a gas-tax holiday might put a few extra bucks in their pocket.

Clinton seems to hope there are just enough people in the latter group who’ll buy into the nonsense and give her a political boost.

It’s cynical politics at its most disappointing. Worse, since low-information voters vastly outnumber high-information voters, this demagoguery might even work.

low-information voters, thats the Clinton base. I’m starting to hate that lady.

  • It might work with voters, but those superdelegates in Congress are sure as hell not going to like being called big oil lovers. Aren’t they the only audience that matters right now?

  • I get the impression that Hillary has been watching Bush for the last eight years, and truly admiring his political skills.

    And there are times they will take a position that quote-unquote experts do not agree with.

    She and Wolfson probably also liked Ben Stein’s movie.

  • She’s going for the low-hanging fruit.

    Obama should swing a lot harder at this one– this is an issue that ultimately makes her look out-of-touch and condescending. It also proves that she’ll do or say almost anything to get elected.

    She’s really too smart to believe this is good public policy. Which is the problem I’ve had with her throughout the campaign, she says a lot of things that I don’t think she actually believes.

  • There is no (zero) chance that the Clintons can get the nomination is a manner that is not widely perceived as anything other than illegitimately…

    Asking again:

    Is it the goal of the Clintons to destroy Obama so that he is unelectable and she can run again in 2012?

    or)

    Is it the goal of the Clintons to destroy the Democratic Party?

    Until recently, I strongly believed that the ultimate objective had to be to stop McInsane. Now, I am no longer sure of that.

    I am no longer convinced that it really makes a difference if it is McBush or McClinton. If we get Clinton & McSame as the candidates in November, our country will continue to get what it deserves – a Corporately owned president.

    I have never missed voting in elections. It they are the candidates, I will sit out the election and doubt that I will ever vote again. If either McCain or Clinton are the next president, F*ck the United States of Amerika and to misquote Rev Wright “God Should Damn the United States”.

  • This very tenacious woman is doing what she needs to do to get elected. That’s politics, people, and only someone with Senator Clinton’s vast experience understands this. Ultimately, the superdelegates will respect her for taking this politically astute position and choose her for her electoral acumen.

    The Democratic Congressional caucus might have their feelings hurt now as Senator Clinton challenges them to be as brave as she and McCain are being. People being challenged to do the courageous thing to fix a problem are always resistant. But they’ll come around and end up admiring her for her grit in taking a bold stand for consumers, something that Mr. I Love Facts was too much of a goody-goody and political neophyte to do.

  • I go with creature’s take. The superdelegates should be angry as hell about this. My god, this is just a day after ex-DNC Chair and ex-Hillary supporter Joe Andrews said: “Clinton’s latest stand on the gas tax holiday, which he said essentially amounted to nothing more than political pandering, was “really one of the straws that broke the camel’s back” in his decision to switch from Clinton to Obama.”

    May this open the floodgates and end this.

  • I guess I don’t have much of a chance of ever being elected President.

    I would love to see one of the candidates come out for an INCREASE in the gas tax.

  • This is going to push the “intellectual/workingman” split even further. Just what Hillary is hoping for. It’s her only way of proving to the supers that he is unelectable.

    And she truly doesn’t care about the impact on the Democratic Party, or the country.

  • I do hope the Insane Fake Professor is satire. But it’s so hard to know these days.

  • Lewis Black lives.

    Republican John McCain: “I have a really stupid idea!”
    DINO (but in reality, the party of Clinton) Hillaryious Clinton: “I can make it worse!”

  • Nobody is talking about the impact of betting on oil futures on the price of gas. We’ve seen both Clinton and Bush administrations push to increase the liquidity of capital over the last 20 years. Money is chasing the best return and causing havoc.

  • Interesting fact from the Bloomberg link (She has it backwards) – while Obama doesn’t favor the tax holiday, he does favor a windfall profits tax that is triple Hillary’s.

  • Its now or never for her. After this campaign she’ll be dead to the Democratic Party. There will be no 2012 for her, and she knows it. This will wrap up June 3rd with the super delegates moving enmasse to Obama after the last primary. Mark my words, Hillary Clinton will run as an independant. This is her last chance, she’s desperate and she’ll do anything. We will (and are) seeing her move closer and closer to the Republicans (obliterate Iran, the gas tax holiday, guns…she’ll be throwing gays under the bus any day now). She’s separating herself from the Democratic Party. To me it looks like she’s looking beyond the primaries to an independant run.

    If her doners turn their back on an independant run then we’lll witness the spectacle of the Clintons actively support John McCain. They won’t do it “officially”, but they defintely will stab the Democrats in the back.

  • This is going to push the “intellectual/workingman” split even further. Just what Hillary is hoping for. It’s her only way of proving to the supers that he is unelectable. And she truly doesn’t care about the impact on the Democratic Party, or the country.

    You wonder how far she’ll go now that her back’s truly against the wall. What Republican policy that appeals to low-information Dems will she espouse next? If refraining from bombing countries that haven’t attacked us and fighting global warming are off the table, what else is dispensable?

    A marginally Republican friend who’s supporting Obama asked me last night if the Clintons have always been this bad and we just didn’t realize it. This person rather heroically managed to ignore the anti-Clinton spin through the 1990s, but now is thinking that many of the right-wing accusations made against Bill and Hill–that they’ll do anything for power–were actually true. I had to concur that they apparently were based in reality–now–but, no, I don’t think these people were always like this. It took losing an election, something neither of them is used to since they haven’t lost one since he got bounced from the Arkansas guv’s mansion, to make them act this desperately, this despicably, this un-Democratically. It’s been truly disheartening for those of us who used to like and respect them.

    When people are losing, especially when they’re losing power and trying to keep it, you find out exactly what they’re made of. In the Clintons’ case, that isn’t anything you’d want your children to see or to touch yourself without hazmat gloves on.

  • “There are times that a president will take a position that a broad support of quote-unquote experts agree with,” (Clinton campaign) spokesperson Howard Wolfson said. “And there are times they will take a position that quote-unquote experts do not agree with.”

    zoe from pittsburgh said:

    Obama should swing a lot harder at this one– this is an issue that ultimately makes her look out-of-touch and condescending. It also proves that she’ll do or say almost anything to get elected.

    The Iraq War was another issue where the experts were ignored. People who actually knew the difference between Shi’a and Sunni, not to mention Kurds, Turkumen, Mandeans, etc., predicted invading the country would not be create a mess.

    Obama should tie ignoring the gas tax to deciding to invade Iraq.

  • SaintZak, she’s not going to make an independent run. She won’t go quietly, and she’ll take a lot of people down with her, but she will go.

    What she won’t do is remain a highly visible and respected elder figure in the Democratic Party, not because the party wouldn’t have her but because, I suspect, Bill’s and her anger and bitterness will be too deep. If they can’t have it all, I believe they don’t want anything. I wonder how long she’ll stay in the Senate?

  • This reminds me a lot of the tactic Jim Gilmore used to become governor of Virginia. When his campaign was failing, he unleashed a plan to abolish the “car tax” [personal property taxes on autos]. So, people with expensive cars [rich people] got the sweeter deal. And low-income voters thought it would make a difference in their wallets. It got him elected … and bankrupted the state.

    Meanwhile, a scary thought occurred to me this morning. With the tax rebate stimulus checks arriving at the same time gas prices are at record highs, doesn’t this just mean that George Bush has basically taken our tax dollars and given them to Big Oil? Now can we drag him away in handcuffs?

  • What’s gotten into them? Populist fever; the belief that it’s better to run on popular issues with facile solutions that are ultimately self-destructive in the long-term over any ethical belief in statesmanship.

  • She’s really too smart to believe this is good public policy. Which is the problem I’ve had with her throughout the campaign, she says a lot of things that I don’t think she actually believes.

    That’s been a problem with her all along. If we’re to believe her story on NAFTA, she was doing the same thing back in the Clinton administration. You can’t get a real read on where she stands — on anything. The ‘triangulator’ charge didn’t appear out of thin air.

  • Just found this totally unofficial poll on CNN.com:

    Whose position on a gas-tax holiday do you favor?
    Clinton and McCain’s support 40% 23715
    Obama’s opposition 60% 35857
    Total Votes: 59572

    Suh-weet! At least, in a completely suspect, nonrandom sampling kind of way.

  • I’m almost certain that Clinton has not introduced legislation in the Senate for her “gas tax holiday” proposal so I’m not sure what record she wants Congress to go on. The traditional route would be to submit a bill with her plan and let people vote on it, which is what McCain did with his proposal (S.2890).

    Clinton is on the stump yelling “Talk is cheap” and can’t be bothered to submit a bill that would make her plan law. Summer is six weeks away and she’s telling voters she’s trying to get relief for them “this summer”. Unless I was on acid when Schoolhouse Rock was airing I don’t think a bill running a TV ad in Indiana is a key step in making a bill become a law.

    The first step is for the bill to, you know, exist.

  • Seems to me that prices are high because of supply and demand. If you increase demand or reduce supply, prices go up. If you decrease demand or increase supply, prices go down. If you reduce prices (via a gas tax holiday) then demand will go UP, not down. That leads me to believe that a gas tax holiday will exacerbate the problem it’s allegedly designed to solve. Another gift to Exxon-Mobil courtesy of the Republican party. Never let it be said that they don’t take care of their own.

  • Smiling Dixie–

    I’ve come to believe that it is Obama’s financing model that is terrifying her campaign team. Moving to a 50-state, grassroots campaign strategy funded by small donors will greatly decrease the power of K-Street and folks like Mark Penn. The DLC approach (take the Kerry states plus OH or FL) benefits corporate donors by keeping the party weak and dependent. The 50 state approach strengthens the party at the expense of the Beltway.

    I’m with Chris Bowers. I’m tired of chasing Reagan Democrats in the Rust Belt at the expense of the mainstream of the party. Clinton’s commitment to this approach is way past its buy by date.

  • Comment 1, Rick:
    “starting to hate that lady”? You’re late to the party.

  • David Kurtz at TPM points out today that the comments of the economic experts about gas prices don’t make sense, just as I said here yesterday. You have to assume a broken market (another way of saying that market forces must be set aside to make sense of the criticism of Clinton’s plan).

    People have been suggesting that Obama’s stand on the tax holiday is courageous because he opposes the desire of voters for relief from higher prices. It is equally courageous for Clinton to take a stand opposed by the vocal Obama-supporting intelligentsia (e.g., the economic experts lining up against her). Not only do the experts’ comments set aside market forces, but taking their comments at face value requires us to assume that these economists have no political axes to grind. Further, Obama supporters seem to have no qualms about pillorying Krugman when he supports Clinton on health care but now tout him as their favorite expert because he agrees with Obama about gas prices. Krugman is apparently capable of having economic opinions that give comfort to both candidates. When is he right and when is he wrong? Whenever you like what he says? So, is it OK to disregard experts when Obama does it, but not when Clinton does?

    As I have pointed out here yesterday, economics are not the only consideration. Temporary relief may be more important than long term consequences, especially when the long term can be addressed separately via other measures. Further, Obama supporters narrowly limit the impact of the tax holiday to what individual consumers would save ($4/mo) without considering the problems of truckers and the companies who transport goods on the highways and the associated transportation costs built into every product consumers must buy each day, especially food.

    There is demagoguery on Obama’s part here too. Clinton is right to point out that he has sided with economic experts who do not appreciate the immediate concerns of individuals. It isn’t the job of economists to worry about how people make ends meet, any more than climate experts worry about rain in a single town. They look at broad trends. Politicians worry about individual people and their needs because individuals vote. That isn’t demagoguery. It is how the system works. For Obama to misunderstand that basic fact about democracy is pretty scary.

    Picking generic words out of Clinton’s statements and calling her a Republican (or even a Bushie) because of them is an obvious smear tactic. All campaigns talk about being with “us” and use “we” and talk about victory and support. Obama did it in PA where he promised that if voters were with him then he promised change. He says that over and over. It’s just another way to call Clinton a Republican — the worst thing apparently that you can say about any Democrat, aside from calling her a racist. I expect that from the comment section, but when Steve Benen does it in one of his essays, I think it is beneath the Carpetbagger. I know he favors Obama, but using smears instead of arguments undermines his credibility and the reason why people read this blog.

  • The pundits cited in this post appear not to know that Clinton proposes paying for the lost revenue with the oil windfall profits tax, meaning that the oil companies would not benefit. See Krugman here. It’s still a lousy idea, but it’s distinctly different from McCain’s giveaway to Exxon/Mobil.

  • I’ve never been particularly in the tank for Obama, but the more I see of Hillary the less I like her.

    And that is putting it mildly.

  • There is no bill because there is no support for the plan among Dems in Congress. See Nancy Pelosi’s statement yesterday.

  • I never believed I would think this way, but SaintZak may have a point. We could be seeing Lieberman: The Sequel. Clinton may explore an “independent Democrat” campaign. It’s still not likely, but the moves she has made in the past month or two sure fit the scenario. Ballot access would be a problem, but otherwise her campaign does resemble HoJo’s senatorial campaign.

  • Shit, why don’t they actually do something progressive?

    Say, let’s jack up the gas tax to a couple of dollars a gallon, then give tax credits to lower and middle-class families to cover the difference… That might actually raise money, put a dent in consumption, and cut into the outrageous profits from the oil companies without hurting mainstream Americans.

  • Potato Head,

    And what exactly do you think the chances are that Congress will pass a windfall profits tax on the oil companies????????

    “Snowball’s chance in hell” comes to my mind…

  • To Potato Head @ 28:

    You are a gullible FOOL & a TOOL.

    If Clinton & the Rethugs passed a ‘gas tax holiday’, Bush would probably sign it as it would likely add to oil company profits.

    If Clinton & the Dumbocrats passed a ‘windfall profits tax’ on the oil companies, Bush would definitely veto it.

    Billary is just acting thru a cheap stunt! If otherwise, she would have introduced legislation.

  • The pundits cited in this post appear not to know that Clinton proposes paying for the lost revenue with the oil windfall profits tax, meaning that the oil companies would not benefit. See Krugman here. It’s still a lousy idea, but it’s distinctly different from McCain’s giveaway to Exxon/Mobil.

    If those two bills make it to the floor in the next couple of weeks, the “holiday” has a good chance of becoming law (although I expect it would be vetoed and not be overridden by the Senate), while the windfall profits tax would have zero chance of becoming law. Clinton knows this. It’s a shameful, double pander–and a Republican tactic, fake tax cuts.

  • We have always known Clinton will not produce a lot of downticket support; now she wants to actively damage Dem congressional candidates? Jebus, how did she get here? And “fuck the experts” is right out of the Repub playbook. Please, go away.

  • I’m voting for Obama because I’m really enthusiatic about his universal health care plan. Sure, he’s pandering to me and my friend with the pre-existing condition (bleeding feet) but what does that matter? Oh, wait…

  • Wait, with us or against us? Isn’t that Bush’s line?

    No, CB; it is a Sith line.

    And out of curiosity, isn’t there something in Congressional regulations about a Senator attempting to exercise dominion over the House? We’ve seen a number of instances recently where She-Unworthy-of-Naming has demonstrated that she will, indeed, bring another term of Bushylvanian/Republican policies to the presidency.

    I’m waiting to hear that she’s come out in favor of drilling ANWR until it looks like a swiss cheese. At the rate of her conversion to the Neocon side of politics, that should happen any day now….

  • Lets cut to the chase NONE of the healthcare plans by Edwards, Clainton and Obama are universal. Mandates ≠ Universality.

  • Congratulations, Hillarobots, Clinton thinks you’re stupid. And Mary, thank you for proving her right.

  • Mary–

    Please note that David Kurtz has been corrected by his readers, who point out that supply limits drive the gas price regardless of tax level.

  • There is no bill because there is no support for the plan among Dems in Congress.

    Exactly. And there should be. While Senator Clinton stands tall and proud, everyone else in the party, all the experts and the media are betraying her. Instead of viciously smearing her plan as “Republican” just because it follows the policies of John McCain and the GOP, we should be calling the entire Democratic caucus what it is: stupid.

  • There is no bill because there is no support for the plan among Dems in Congress.

    Exactly. And there should be.

    Take that up with tall and proud Senator Clinton who is so tall and proud that she can’t be bothered to introduce her own ideas as a bill in the Senate while she is out on the stump saying “Talk is cheap.”

  • Micheline @ 39 is correct…

    The only real health care solution is a SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM. Neither Clinton or Obama can or will talk about this on the campaign trail. To do so would get the Health Care Industry (especially the Insurance & Pharmaceutical companies) to dump $$$$$$ into defeating any candidate who even says ‘single payer’.

    We know that Clinton is tied into the ‘insurance industry’ approach.

    The only approach to moving to single payer is to ‘educate’ voters (and their Congressmen & Senators) before pushing for single payer.

    The ONLY candidate who could possibly do this is Obama! Will he? Only time will tell, but we do know that the Corporate world and their Corporate Media are working like crazy to defeat him.

  • Take that up with tall and proud Senator Clinton who is so tall and proud that she can’t be bothered to introduce her own ideas as a bill in the Senate while she is out on the stump saying “Talk is cheap.”

    Why should she? Everyone will just call her “Republican” — an ugly smear — for supporting something that Republicans back and every other Democrat is against. Throughout history, brave people have always been pilloried for having the courage to stand against facts, knowledge and expertise.

  • But Mary, once again, if there is no bill, then what the hell are we talking about this for? This is just a gimmick designed to win votes and nothing else. Hillary isn’t even going to try to get it passed.

    As for your idea of remporary economic relief, you do realize most Americans are about to get a huge rebate check from the government, right? I myself am set to get over $1600 direct deposited into my account. So I’m supposed to get excited about the $30 or so I’d get from this gas tax holiday? As a reminder, Hillary’s tax holiday doesn’t really have anything to do with gas and is no different than if she just gave us all small rebate checks based upon how much gas we purchased. But if she just offered to give us all $100 extra in our rebate checks, we’d come out further ahead than this non-plan you keep touting.

    But keep believing that all these economists are just Clinton-haters, including Krugman. That really worked for the Bushies too, who assumed that anyone who criticized his ideas just hated Bush. Now that makes up a sizeable majority of our country. As it turns out, ignoring your critics really isn’t the best idea.

  • We have always known Clinton will not produce a lot of downticket support; now she wants to actively damage Dem congressional candidates? Jebus, how did she get here?

    That is not Senator Clinton’s problem. She has given other Democrats every opportunity to get in line with her vision and her campaign, and many of them have insulted her by failing to do so, so they’re understandably on their own.

    If they don’t support her, they’re not much use to the party anyway when she’s president. I hope Howard Dean has a 50-state strategy for paying the price of betraying the Clintons. He’s going to need it.

  • Ditto all of what wvmg (comment #11) said re: comment #7 by Insane Fake Professor.

  • #27 Mary “You have to assume a broken market (another way of saying that market forces must be set aside to make sense of the criticism of Clinton’s plan”

    Can you elaborate? Just curious to know more details on what you mean. If you’re just repeating a TPM headline, can you post a link?

    “Krugman is apparently capable of having economic opinions that give comfort to both candidates. When is he right and when is he wrong? Whenever you like what he says?”

    Yes. It’s the same with Krugman, my parents, and the Pope. What’s so surprising that? (btw personally I disagree with Clinton and Obama, and support single-payer)

    “Obama did it in PA where he promised that if voters were with him then he promised change. He says that over and over. It’s just another way to call Clinton a Republican.”

    That’s quite a leap – wouldn’t you say yourself?

  • There is no bill because there is no support for the plan among Dems in Congress.

    It’s a shame Hillary Clinton isn’t a member of Congress, or else she could just introduce the proposal herself.

  • David Kurtz at TPM points out today that the comments of the economic experts about gas prices don’t make sense, just as I said here yesterday. You have to assume a broken market (another way of saying that market forces must be set aside to make sense of the criticism of Clinton’s plan).

    And Mary totally misunderstood Kurtz’s point, which I just had to reread because I thought I had misread it the first time. He’s not saying that what the economists say doesn’t make sense. He’s saying that the market is broken. And that’s exactly what the case here is, because gas prices are being dictated from above and consumers have almost no input on prices. And that’s why economists say that the gas companies will eat up our savings, becausee they’ll just set the price to whatever they want it to be.

    And just to make things clear, they teach this stuff in economics classes and it’s not even as if some economic theory is being broken. It’s just that the demand for oil is so inelastic that suppliers can dictate their prices, as if this was a monopoly; which in a sense it is because they’re all in cohoots and set their prices together. And something else to note is that I believe that gas stations can’t even charge less if they wanted to, as there is a certain minimum that they can charge by law, and they get punished if they purposefully sell gas at a cheap price.

    But again, Mary is displaying her Republican-like tendencies here. Reading Kurtz’s point about broken markets, Mary assumes that all economists are wrong and that the markets MUST be working as her only way to make Hillary’s plan make sense. Just as Republicans set their compasses to show that Bush is the new North, Mary rewrites economic theory around Hillary’s bogus plan. If all the economists disagree with Hillary, they’re all wrong AND Obama supporters. Of course. The world revolves around Hillary and if our compasses don’t point to her, it means everyone else is wrong.

  • When did liberals start believing economists? The majority of economists are right-wing hacks, as evidenced by their former leader, Alan Greenspan.

    Do you guys remember Alan Greenspan, Economist, advising people to get variable rate mortgages? How did that work out?

    Economists provide some of the most misleading and wrong research out there.

    The gas tax is a regressive tax which is why economists support it.

    The gas price has gone up over $2.00 a gallon and the consumption has barely been dented. Getting rid of the 18 cent gas tax will not put a dent in consumption, and thus will not change the demand. With no change in demand, there will be no change in the crude price of oil, right?

    Saying that the 18 cents goes right to the oil companies would be the equivalent of saying that if we raise the tax to $2.00 a gallon, that will come right out of the oil companies pockets. Not going to happen.

    To claim that Hillary is making a wrong decision because the consensus of “Economists” is that it is a bad idea is asinine.

    That is like saying that Obama made a bad decision on the war because the consensus of “Foreign Policy Experts” thought we should go to war.

    But according to Rick, I’m just a low-information voter. Typical blogosphere reaction.

  • “It’s cynical politics at its most disappointing. Worse, since low-information voters vastly outnumber high-information voters, this demagoguery might even work.” TCB

    This is just plain old divisive politics and a way for Hillary to keep the “elitist” tag pinned to Obama’s ass by alienating the common folk from him. Hillary, seeking the white working class vote, is actively exploiting class, educational and cultural differences with her anti intellectual attacks that come right out of Republican play book. It was exactly this kind of calculating for political gain that caused Hillary to curry favor with a similar set of demographics when she voted for the Iraq War resolution.

    And don’t forget this about Hillary regarding her stand on flag burning:
    “This and other examples, political observers discern political posturing. Maybe they are right. Whatever the case, though, the flag bill along with other examples of Clinton’s willingness to court political reactionaries raises disturbing questions about who, exactly, she is. Consistency is not always to be admired in a politician, but when a supposed liberal is one of only two senators to sponsor a bill to restrict freedom of speech, then we are talking about something basic. If this is a pander, it is in the worst possible taste.”
    from: “Star-Spangled Pandering”
    By Richard Cohen
    Thursday, December 15, 2005; Page A33
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/14/AR2005121401887.html

  • I am a life-long lefty (actually Dem candidate for California Legislature in mid-1990’s) and I will not vote for Hillary. I have children and grandchildren, and I am willing to accept a Marxian crisis if necessary, as in probable consequence of further Repub presidency, as the means of getting to real change in this troubled society.

    I will not vote for McCain, and I am only lukewarm on Obama, but I will not vote for Hillary Clinton. This gas-tax post is as good an explanation as any.

  • First we start believing economists. Now we’re quoting Richard Cohen. Next we’ll something from the Drudge Report.

    I agree completely with you about her vote on the flag burning bill. I was very disappointed with her on it. But please don’t quote Richard Cohen.

    As for the gas tax, can’t we please argue about it without saying “most economists agree”. Because that will come back to bite us when “most economists agree” but it isn’t with liberals.

  • DR, you certainly would reduce oil companies’ profits if you bumped the gas tax $2. Lower demand, less gas being pumped, less for the oil companies to profit from. Short-term demand is very inelastic for gasoline but over a longer haul people will make choices about using less of it — more fuel efficient cars, living closer to work, what have you. Here in the Twin Cities, transit ridership is the highest it’s been in decades, probably in no small part due to high gas prices.

    We’re already sending people money directly in the form of tax rebates. If you want to help poor people out, do more of that. Don’t do it by lowering the price of something we’re trying to ween ourselves off of.

  • Mr. BigStuff,
    I am lukewarm on Hillary, and even more worried about how Obama will govern. However, as a lifelong lefty, I would never take a chance on allowing somebody like McCain to get in office just because I wasn’t happy with the alternative.

    I have been voting for over 20 years, and I have always had to pick between the lesser of two evils, so this year will be no different.

  • Chris O.,
    I constantly hear conflicting things like “Short term demand is very inelastic”, yet you think a short-term gas tax elimination is going to change that? Suddenly, a summer tax cut of 18 cents is going to change that, and demand will be elastic over the summer? During a recession, I see nothing wrong with getting rid of a regressive tax.

    And you claim that reducing demand will bring down gas prices. Really? Ever hear of OPEC? If demand goes down, so does production.

    To apply broad economic principles to the oil market just doesn’t make sense.

  • “please don’t quote Richard Cohen” DR

    The point was that Hillary has been displaying a pattern of posturing and pandering for several years and that it appears to have been a politically calculated attempt to symbolically gain a Clintonian centrist identity that would curry favor with those same people that voted for Bush and will likely vote for McCain in November. For Hillary to claim that she has been vetted is ludicrous for that can easily be countered by asking, “Which Hillary?”.

    I grabbed an easy hanging Google fruit by quoting Cohen. There were probably a hundred similar column or blog quotes I could have cited. But, you have to admit, Cohen summed it up well.

  • The gas tax is a regressive tax which is why economists support it.

    That’s actually incorrect. As it turns out, rich people drive more than poor people, and therefore pay more in gas tax than poor people do.

    http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/04/18/gas-tax-holiday/
    As the above link shows, people making less than $15k per year will save less than $30 on average from this “holiday.” People in the $15k-$50k range will save $30-$40 on average. And people making over $50k will save $60 to $70 on average. That would indicate that it’s not regressive.

    Besides, the whole point of the tax is to make it so that the more people drive, the more they pay for roads. But instead, Hillary wants to reward people for driving more. So somebody who bicycles everywhere won’t see any direct savings, while some rich jerk driving his obnoxiously large SUV from the suburbs everyday will save the most.

    But please, go right ahead and ignore all the people who actually know what they’re talking about. There is no such thing as expertise and you’re just as smart as people who waste their time studying this stuff. That’s why Global Warming and Evolution are also shams. Your commonsense is just as reliable as their supposed expertise.

    But just so you know, there was no consensus of foreign policy experts telling us to go to war. There was a consensus, but it was the media and politicians who insisted it was a great idea. Many experts warned us against it. Too bad people like Hillary wouldn’t listen to them.

  • Did I say anything about reducing demand bringing down gas prices? No. I said people would pump less of it. If people are pumping less, then oil companies will be shipping less to us and have less to profit from. Read what I said, please. If production goes down, Exxon will make less money.

    And cutting gas taxes sends the exact WRONG message. It says we’re just going to look for ways to keep gas prices low. The message we WANT to send is that we’re going to break our addiction to oil. You wouldn’t disagree with that, would you? So yes, it’s more long term than short term, but this issue has been dealt with so awfully for so long that the long term is staring us in the face right now. Shameful McCain-Clinton pandering is just making things worse. Now people are talking about lowering the price of gas instead of developing a better energy policy.

    Also, I’d be willing to bet that an 18 cent gas tax cut won’t keep gas prices 18 cents lower than they were before for very long, but I very much hope we’ll never have to actually see about that.

  • Also, DR, as to my last point — why not send money to people directly a la rebate checks instead of lowering the price of something we want to ween ourselves off of? I can’t help but notice you didn’t answer that.

  • Do you guys remember Alan Greenspan, Economist, advising people to get variable rate mortgages? How did that work out?

    You mean the same Alan Greenspan that Senator Clinton said she would ask for advice on how to fix the economy?

  • Oh, and DR, believe it or not, but LOTS of us have been listening to economists for years. I don’t know where you got the idea that economists were all Greenspan people, but that’s entirely incorrect. Economists are all over the ideological spectrum and many of them really know what they’re talking about. I believe Atrios was even an economist (though I might be mistaken about that).

    And while I’ve had Economic professors who were rabid supply-siders, I’ve also had good ones who clearly knew what they were talking about and advocated liberal policies. In fact, one of the biggest mistakes I think liberals make is not taking enough Econ classes, so they can’t discuss this stuff properly with Republicans who pretend to understand this stuff when they really don’t. That’s one reason I was glad to get a business degree, so I can actually discuss this stuff properly without getting duped by the phony economic theories pushed by Republicans.

    But in this case, you’re all wrong. Even liberal economists say that Hillary’s plan won’t work. I can’t believe you’re actually trying to persuade us to ignore all economists, but that really doesn’t help your case. The truth is that Hillary’s plan has nothing to do with economics, but instead is just a political pander she’s not even planning to make real. It’s because of games like this that I really turned against her. And to think, I used to defend the Clinton’s quite fiercely against Republicans who accused them of this kind of thing; and now they have no qualms using it against us.

  • But in this case, you’re all wrong. Even liberal economists say that Hillary’s plan won’t work. I can’t believe you’re actually trying to persuade us to ignore all economists, but that really doesn’t help your case.

    Ignore the evidence and experts, trust in Hillary.

    And there are those who called us Obama supporters a cult?

  • DR @ 58,

    I dunno…I dunno…

    I really wonder if precipitating the crisis, a la Marx, mightn’t be the way to go…Hillary sounds like just a slower death…

    It is conceivable, as I shift between Colorado and California this year, that if I’m in swing state Colorado, I’d vote for Ms. H.

    Like I said, I have children and grandchildren, so I don’t speak lightly when I suggest precipitating an historical crisis.

    If one understands, as many at this site do, how modern American conservatives operate, if one studies U.S. Supreme Court opinions of late, we are really in trouble, and maybe we should just let it all boil up. It may well be that only when low-information voters get shocked out of their dullard state will we have a chance at change.

    There is no reason to believe Hillary is going to bring change.

  • ChrisO,
    I didn’t answer your rebate question, because I didn’t think it was relevent. The rebate checks don’t go to poor people, who only make enough to pay the gas tax, but no income tax, do they?

    And sure, I want to break our addiction to oil. But I don’t think a piddly 18 cents gas tax is the way to do it. Do you think it did ANYTHING to break our addiction to it? Maybe you are worried about sending the wrong message, but come on, nobody is going to agree to a tax that does make a difference. I think we can lower the gas tax AND develop better energy policy.

    Personally, I want to see Obama out there saying the war on terrorism starts with the war on oil. Spend all of the money we are wasting on oil in Iraq to develop mass transit here at home. All in the name of the war on terror.

    Maybe liberals could spend some time on that instead of whining about an 18 cents gas tax.

    Doctor Biobrain,

    Yes, I know economists are all over the spectrum. However the majority of economists are to the right. (And yes, Atrios used to teach Economics, and I wish he would spend some time explaining this a little better. It isn’t as cut and dried as everybody is making it seem).

    Economics is kind of like predicting the weather. They only get it right half the time.

    As for Hillary’s motives, well I have a engineering degree from a top university, my SAT scores were over 1200, and I took economics classes, and I agree with her. So I’m no idiot.

    How can you suggest that she is just pandering? I am not pandering to anybody, and I don’t even particularly like Hillary. (Although I like her better than Obama and any Republican). But I agree with her on this. How can you say she isn’t planning to make it real?

  • Mr. BigStuff,
    The last time things boiled up, six million Jews were murdered in Europe. I’d prefer things not to boil up.

  • Saint Zak and others:
    No, HRC isn’t planning an independent run for THIS year — it is far too late to do something like that. The only explanation I can come up with for her actions — and her sinking ‘down-ticket’ candidates is that she is planning for 2012. Not to run as an independent but to actually form a new party.

    Follow me on this — it is pure speculation but I wish someone would point out evidence against it.

    She knows — unless she is totally self-deluding — that she can’t get the nomination. (The only argument that she could would imply that she had some bit of ‘secret information’ that would really make Obama unelectable, but then why wouldn’t she have used it by now and saved herself time and a lot of money.)

    She sees the political landscape — let’s speculate — the way I do and have been saying for over a year. That the Democrats will win the White House in a Goldwater-level landslide, and that the houses will be both overwhelmingly Democratic. (What I haven’t added, but which seems likely is that the real crazies among the Republicans are more likely to survive the election than the moderates.)

    The Republicans may finally shove themselves over the edge into total irrelevancy. (It could have happened after Goldwater — but Vietnam intervened — or after Watergate — if Carter had been a better President.) They will be so far to the right that they can’t hope for a majority.

    No problem if Obama’s Presidency is a success, but what happenes if it isn’t — and a Senator from NY can help try and ensure this. You then have a mass of ‘center-right’ voters who have nowhere to go.

    Then you have Clinton ‘triangulation.’ “The Republican Party has made itself the prisoner of the ugliest of the far right” (true) “and the Democrats and President Obama have demonstrated the weakness of the far left” (not true, but sounds good) “So I invite you to join with me in creating a new party, a party not for bigots of the right or elitists of the left, but one which will truly represent the mainstream of America.” (And there stand Joe Lie, the Maine ladies, Arlen Specter, and a group of conservative Democrats joining with her.)

    The horrible thing is that it could work. There IS a need for this type of party — I’d oppose it, but democracy requires a strong opposition party to keep the majority on its toes and honest.

    I’m not worried about the WBE costing us this election — there is even some validity in the argument that if the attacks on Obama are made now, and McCain is ignored for now, this will mean that, in the Fall, the attacks on Obama will be ‘old news’ and the spotlight will focus on McCain.

    But President Obama better watch the actions of the Senator from New York very carefully.

  • I didn’t say it had to be EXACTLY like the rebate checks. Just something like it, that went to people who need it the most. Man, battling straw men of yourself can be exhausting.

    A better energy policy will require pricing carbon so all the externalities are factored in — i.e. making it cost more. So I’m sorry, but you’re just not right about that. And look at what’s actually happened — Clinton & McCain are just demagoguing about taxes. I don’t see Hillary saying at all that high prices mean we need to conserve. No, we need to give those SUV drivers as much money back as possible!

  • Dr. Biobrain,
    BTW, I am not suggesting we ignore economists, or economic principles. I am just saying we should be vary wary of saying “Most economists agree” and using that as evidence. As I said, most “Foreign Policy Experts” agreed that Bush was doing the right thing.

  • Chris O.,
    Sorry, I’m a straw man now? WTF? I thought I answered your questions about rebate checks. Apparently I didn’t. Okay, what is this proposal that you are suggesting? I can then tell you if I support it. I support almost all attempts to get rid of regressive taxes. To me, this is a no-brainer, because I don’t think it will affect gas consumption. And particularly, Hillary’s proposal includes an EXTRA TAX on oil companies, so they don’t get the extra money.

    So, with that said, I don’t want to be posting any more long winded posts, as I feel I have monopolized the thread here. I just wanted to get this out there, because nobody else was saying it.

  • No, but you did make one of me. Money given to people directly instead of through gas tax lifting is what I was saying. Send it to poor people, send it to truckers maybe as well. Don’t send it to people earning $200,000 a year who drive to their job 30 miles each way in an SUV.

    Hillary previously proposed a windfall profits tax on oil companies to fund green development. Now, post-pander, it’s just to remain revenue neutral while rewarding afore-mentioned SUV drivers. Her policies are slipping downhill and becoming worse.

  • THE MATH
    If you drive 10,000 miles (2 cars) over this tax holiday and you get 15 mpg, you will save a whopping $120 and do nothing for real fuel prices and/or the environment.

    I can not believe I sent her money last year.

    Where are all the Hillbots, they sure have gotten quiet lately.

  • Making matters slightly worse, the Clinton campaign acknowledged yesterday that every policy expert of every ideological stripe has described the McCain-Clinton idea as nonsense, but they don’t care.

    No wonder 65% of ignorant illiterate white morons vote for her.

    She just keeps getting worse!!!

  • DR – Are there ANY economists who say that Hillary’s plan makes sense? And I completely disagree with the idea that most economists are rightwingers. You do realize that most serious economists reject supply-side economics, right? Besides, if economists are rightwingers, why would they object to a tax cut? I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but Dole pushed this same thing in 1996, and conservatives HATE the gas tax.

    Beyond that, it’s obvious that she’s just pandering. Look, she says this is going to start on Memorial Day. That’s this month. Yet, where is the bill? As Carpetbagger pointed out yesterday, this needs to be in committees right now. But even if it was, it wouldn’t pass. And even if it did, the Whitehouse would probably veto it. And if she insisted it would include the excess profit tax as she said, it DEFINITELY wouldn’t get through Congress and would CERTAINLY be vetoed. So she’s basically attacking Obama with a rightwing talking point based upon something that will never happen.

    And for someone who thinks he’s not a low-information voter, you sure don’t seem to know a lot. Like your idea that the tax was regressive. And you’re incorrect about the rebate checks too. As the below link indicates, a married couple that earned $4000 in wages and had two kids will get $1200; while the same couple making $35k would get $1670. And that’s cash that they’ll get immediately, not a savings they’ll receive over three months. Compare that with the $30 they’ll get from the gas tax “holiday.”
    http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=179164,00.html

    And as has been said before, this really doesn’t have anything to do with gas. This is just like the rebate, except that it’s based upon how much gas you use; so the more gas you use, the bigger the savings. And this doesn’t compare at all to the rebate checks, which will be an immediate help to most people. And the fact that economists say that it won’t really be any savings doesn’t help at all. Again, Hillary is just pandering. If this idea every actually happened, the savings have nothing to do with gasoline. That’s just the method used to determine who gets the savings, but it amounts to the same thing as the rebates; just less effective.

  • Obama was for a gas tax in Illinois when he was a state senator. His campaign says he learned from that how ineffective it was. That’s what he says now, but did he ever say that in Illinois after he learned how ineffective it was?

  • I know we’re a bit off topic, but the gas tax holiday won’t go through Congress anyway, so the gas tax holiday is all about political posturing anyway…

    Prup–I’m not aware of a way to get an independent Clinton presidential bid on the ballot, so I believe you are right about this year. But I do sense that the famous Clinton “triangulation” strategy may very well lead to the formation of a third party in 2012. Lieberman, Bloomberg, Hagel, the Maine ladies, southern Dems and many other pols could be very attracted to forming a center-right party without the fundamentalist baggage. Conservative on military matters, pragmatic on budget and social issues, I see the opportunity if the Democrats are split and the Republicans implode.

    As a Californian, I’ve seen the Republican party make itself irrelevant. It can happen on a national basis, too. (Arnold would NEVER survive a GOP primary race as a newcomer; he came to office on a recall ballot with 50+ names on it.) Reading the comments here and elsewhere shows that the Dems may split if their isn’t a resolution soon. Your scenario isn’t as crazy as it may seem at first glance.

  • Clinton’s gas tax proposal is an indication (not proof) of why less educated people support her and more educated people support Obama.

    It is also underscores my growing sense that Hillary Clinton is unprincipled and is likely to pull a Zell Lieberman on us (further evidenced by her “obliterate Iran” comment)… that is to run as a progressive and then take a sharp right after getting inaugurated.

  • Dr. Biobrain,
    I see why you trust the experts instead of figuring it out for yourself. The link you provide shows that the gas tax IS a regressive tax. Do the math. Actually, find a math major to do the math for you. Hint: If somebody making less than $10,000 pays about $30 in taxes, and somebody making $70,000 pays $65, it’s a regressive tax.

    I can’t believe how much time is being wasted on this.

  • Alright DR, I guess you do have a point that it technically is a regressive tax and I should have thought of that. But all the same, it will save rich people more than twice as much as it saves poor people, and when we’re talking about less than $10 a month for poor people, I don’t see what the big advantage is. Particularly as it saves money for the wrong reasons; as gas guzzlers get more savings than bicyclists. And as has been said before, this has nothing to do with gasoline anyway and if we just want to give people more money, it’d be better to do it with a rebate check; which is definitely more progressive than this gas tax cut.

    And I agree that this is a big waste of time for a bill that won’t ever get written and has no chance of passing if it did. So how can you support Hillary for bringing it up? She’s smearing Obama with rightwing talking points on a non-issue.

  • DR @ 70,

    I knew it; you are, like so many Hillary supporters, too ill-informed and mis-comprehending of the complexities of Western civilization since, say, Wyclif, to participate in a meaningful discussion of the situation we’re in.

    Go entertain yourself with some WaPo Richard Cohen and stay out the way.

  • Doctor Biobrain,
    Now that you realize I am not a complete idiot, let me ask you a question: You say that it will only save people $20 a month. Now, at $20 a month, do you think that will affect their driving patterns? I don’t. To make it affect their driving patterns, it would have to be so high that it would be a burdensome regressive tax. So for Obama to suggest that Hillary’s plan is bad for the environment is just as much a smear as Hillary suggesting Obama is, well whatever it is she is suggesting. I have to admit, I missed that part, and if you want to criticize her for that, I’ll agree with you.

    I think that having an 18 cent gas tax is only paying lip service to the problem, so get rid of it. But don’t have economists tell me how her plan is bad, because most of them aren’t being honest.

  • Mr. BigStuff,
    Interesting. You claim that I am the one mis-comprehending, yet you think I read Richard Cohen. I stay away from him, just as I stay away from the Drudge Report. But feel free to screw your grandkids by making sure the Supreme Court becomes even more Republican. I’m sure something good will come of that. I just hope my kids don’t have to die for it. Because when public outrage bubbles up, you never know where it’s going to go.

  • Its simple, she’s hoping that pandering will get her close enough in NC to finish Obama off, if she gets within a few points of him there and wins Indiana she’s hoping that will critically wound his campaign.

    She’s banking on the stupidity of americans and he’s baning on their intelligence

  • YES!! we’re with you Hillary!
    Obama voted for a gax tax holiday 3 times in Illinois.
    Don’t know what’s wrong with him now.

  • He learns from his mistakes, that’s whats wrong with him, unlike the others he doesn’t repeat the same mistkes over and over

  • DR – How is the gas tax only paying lip service? The purpose of it isn’t to discourage driving, though it has that effect too. It’s to fund highways, by making people who drive more pay for the roads they use. And while it barely impacts the average consumer, it’ll raise about $10 billion over these three months.

    And what exactly makes you the expert to dispute all economists? Again, I haven’t heard ANY economists defending Hillary on this, and even her avid supporter Paul Krugman is against it. But this makes them dishonest? And look, while demand is fairly inelastic, it’s not completely inelastic. 18 cents a gallon will make some difference. And no offense, but you’re just pulling your theory out of your butt. You’re making the exact argument Limbaugh and O’Reilly make when they dispute Global Warming. Same with Creationists. Sorry, but you’re not allowed to just invent your own theories if you don’t agree with the experts; at least not if you expect us to take you seriously. And if you don’t have any credible experts on your side, then you’re pretty much screwed. And again, you’re on the side of conservatives on this one; as they HATE the gas tax. There’s a reason McCain came up with this idea first: He needs to show that he’s anti-tax too.

    As for the attacks on Obama, Hillary’s insisting that this shows that he doesn’t care about little people; which is a primary attack Republicans are making against him. And in her ad on it, she doesn’t even mention how little this would save anyone. She lumps it with some foreclosure issue and insists that this shows that Obama is out of touch. But again, seeing as how she’s not actually pushing any real legislation this, it’s just election pandering of the worst sort. There’s a reason she got so cozy with O’Reilly the other day; they know that Hillary can’t win and want her to hurt Obama as much as possible.

  • Question. A while back there was talk about lowering the Federal Reserves on gas. Wouldn’t this accomplish something similar as a gas-tax holiday? But wouldn’t it keep the oil companies from profiting? And decreasing the highway trust fund? Shouldn’t Obama come out with this as a counter to this horrible idea by McCain and Clinton? Or would the effect not be that great?

    Another point that’s grated on me from the beginning of this gas tax holiday is Clinton’s pick-up of McCain’s idea (he did have it first). I understand that she’s trying to demonstrate that she’s a good fighter and all, but isn’t knowing who your enemy is part of being a good fighter? This seems to me that she’s flailing about trying to land some kind of punch or even worse, like she’s trying to campaign for McCain’s VP slot. It’s getting to the point where I think she’s a secret Republican candidate running for the Dem primary.

  • JT – Regarding Clinton stealing McCain’s idea, you’ve got to remember that this is what triangulating is all about. One big reason why Bill was so popular in the 90’s is because conservatives were taking outrageously rightwing positions, and so all Bill had to do to was go to the left of them and claim victory when they eventually compromised on his terms. Unfortunately for us, this meant that he was adopting rightwing positions, so even if he won, we lost. So instead of fighting for spending increases on social services, he’d fight to see how little the spending cut would be. And he’d fight their taxcuts by giving taxcuts which were better than the Republicans’, but were still taxcuts. It wasn’t about pushing a smart or liberal agenda; it was about pushing an agenda that was slightly to the left of the Republicans. And in the long run, it helped push the country to the right, because even us liberals were advocating conservative positions, because they were the only choices Bill left us.

    And that’s what we see Hillary doing here. She grabbed McCain’s gas tax policy, added a provision saying that oil companies would make up for the lost tax revenues, and comes out with a leftish version of McCain’s rightwing policy. And this is exactly what we would have gotten from her as president too. It’s not about smart policy; it’s about winning. And in this case, she isn’t even pushing a real bill. She’s just posturing as a way to hurt Obama and doesn’t care if she’s pushing a rightwing position.

  • You don’t need an economist to tell you that if the total gas production over the US is at its ceiling (which is practically true over the summer) the companies will put up prices to the maximum they can while still selling their entire output. Tax or no tax. Consumers will see NO change in the price of gas due to a so-called ‘tax holiday’ because there is no spare production capacity. All gas WILL be sold no matter what, so why dent your profits by reducing the price?

    If both Hillary’s measures were passed, she would be giving 18c a gallon to the oil companies and then taking it away again in windfalls, consumers would not see a cent, the whole thing would keep a few dozen bureaucrats employed but otherwise completely pointless.

  • Obama was for a gas tax in Illinois when he was a state senator. His campaign says he learned from that how ineffective it was. That’s what he says now, but did he ever say that in Illinois after he learned how ineffective it was?

    Oh for pete’s sake. How does this nit-picking make Hillary look good in comparison?

    I’m glad Obama is standing up against this stupid proposal. It gives me a glimmer of hope that as president, he will occasionally choose to do the right thing rather than the politically expedient thing.

    This nation is going to be fucked up bad enough when the next president takes over in 2009, we are going to need leadership not pandering.

  • stringph gets it.

    This is not only pathetic pandering, it is a giveaway to the oil companies disguised as a sop to the average American.

    This is what we can expect more of Hillary gets the nomination (which, thankfully, she won’t because we don’t do things the GOP way, like she wishes the Dems would). Just think how her health care plan is going to work out, given this example.


  • SaintZak: She’s separating herself from the Democratic Party. To me it looks like she’s looking beyond the primaries to an independant run.

    I believe with every fiber of my being that this is the case, should Obama get the nod. Like Lieberman, she is the safety mechanism on which the Corporatocy’s bets are hedged. What smart business put all its eggs in one basket?

  • This woman is a liar. Just the fact that she’s enthusiastically supporting the gas holidy makes me skeptical about it.

  • Doctor Biobrain,
    I am not pulling theories out of my butt. My point is economists (and Krugman) make assumptions that are not always right. His assumption is that we will not have enough gas this summer because the refineries will be working at capacity. Because of this, he says the supply is fixed.

    Didn’t I read somewhere that consumption is down this year? If that is the case, it is entirely possible that the supply will NOT be fixed this year. This puts a big hole in Krugman’s analysis. Is that the only hole? Probably not, since he limits it to an Econ101 analysis.

  • DR – Yes, you ARE pulling theories out of your butt. Come on, you’re basing this theory on something you read “somewhere” on a subject you clearly don’t know very much about. Or can you cite some actual source for your theory to show that you didn’t just invent it? Again, you have NO economists on your side. At least the Global Warming denialists can cite some scientist to back their case. But you’ve only got yourself and a theory that every economist is lying to you. But please, go ahead and believe your own analysis instead. After all, there might be a hole in Krugman’s analysis, and maybe even more holes. Wow, you should really think about going into the Econ biz with that kind of analysis. You make it seem so easy.

    But again, you know as well as I do that this is entirely a moot point, because this bill is never going to happen. Hillary is just trying to destroy Obama based upon a non-issue. Hillary’s latest ad is so horribly deceitful that it makes me sick. She won’t win the election, but she’s going to try to destroy him anyway.

  • Oh, man. Do you read any news other than stuff that props up Barack Obama? Apparently not. If you did, you’d know that Obama supported a gas tax “holiday” in Illinois (actually, THREE of them) and – wait for it…wait for it…wait for it…he voted against rescinding the tax!!

    He actually made jokes about it, to the effect that maybe gas stations should put signs on their pumps telling residents that the lower costs were brought to them by Barack Obama.

    You know, maybe the OT Hillary blogs are right: Maybe you have been dipping into the kool-aid, punch, funky tobacco, whatever…to buy the crapola you do about Barack Obama, hook, line and sinker. Yep. The fish have definitely taken the bait.

  • Mabelle I live in Illinois and I can quite clearly tell you there is a huge difference here between the state tax and the federal tax. In the state of Illinois the consumers pay a % tax on gas where as the federal tax is a flat tax paid by producers (indirectly the consumers cover the tax). The results of the removal of the gas tax was a little to no decrease in gas prices (in my area there was no difference). So removing a consumer paid tax (which is % based) had almost no noticeable effect on prices so I can’t help but wonder HOW removing a flat tax on the producers would magically lower the prices.It’s good tosee Obama learned his lessons from the tax fiasco in Illinois.

  • Maybe she should start looking at taking away all of the corporate welfare tax breaks for the biggest price gougers on Earth, the oil companies. Hillary’s pandering is getting more desparate every day. She should start looking at breaking up the oil oligopolies, or at the very least remove all of their unearned tax breaks before she increases the deficits even higher.

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