Clinton can’t stop hitting the wrong note

Years ago, I was having a conversation with a jazz pianist who told me, “When I hit a wrong note, I keep hitting it — so the audience will think it’s intentional.” To move away from the wrong note would be a subtle admission of a mistake.

About a week ago, Hillary Clinton hit the wrong note when she called for a “gas-tax holiday” over the summer. The dumb idea ran counter to almost every positive quality Clinton has — her commitment to telling voters the truth, her intelligence, the seriousness with which she takes policy details, etc. The whole mess contradicts who Hillary Clinton really is, and she knows it.

But like the pianist, instead of quickly transitioning to a better note and hoping no one notices, Clinton has decided to hit the wrong note over and over again, with increasing volume and intensity. The more reality pushes back against her nonsensical idea, the more aggressively Clinton pounds the ivory. As someone who’s respected Clinton’s intellect for years, it’s been painful to watch.

Jason Zengerle added:

[S]tubbornness and refusal to admit error — and, in fact, the penchant for taking actions that only compound the original error — would seem to be qualities we don’t want in our next president, right?”

The demagogic pandering prompted the Clinton campaign to create another ad to tout her ridiculous idea — the second commercial this week — and bash Barack Obama for taking reality seriously. The ad, which started airing in Indiana yesterday, says Clinton’s proposal would “save families $8 billion,” adding, “Barack Obama says that’s just pennies.” The ad concludes that Obama would “make you keep paying that tax, instead of big oil.”

The irony, of course, is that Clinton’s plan would ensure that the oil companies “end up the biggest beneficiaries.” Everything about Clinton’s idea is backwards — consumers lose, the environment loses, conservation loses, Big Oil wins. Clinton knows all of this — she’s far too smart to believe otherwise — but she insists on shamelessly pandering anyway.

The new ad, as it turns out, was only part of yesterday’s offensive display.

On Thursday, the Clinton campaign said policy experts no longer matter, and added a Bush-like ultimatum to congressional Democrats: “Do they stand with the hard-pressed Americans who are trying to pay their gas bills at the gas station or do they once again stand with the oil companies? I want to know where people stand and I want them to tell us, are they with us or against us when it comes to taking on the oil companies?” (Remember, the biggest beneficiaries of her plan are the oil companies.)

On Friday, the Clinton campaign actually managed to make an insulting situation even more offensive by accusing those who care about reality of being elitist: “Clinton strategist Geoff Garin deployed [the elitism card] on a conference call with reporters, and Clinton used the tactic on the trail: ‘I find it, frankly, a little offensive that people who don’t have to worry about filling up their gas tank or what they buy when they go to the supermarket think it’s somehow illegitimate to provide relief for … millions and millions of Americans.'”

To press her point, Clinton adopted one of the Republicans’ favorite tactics: she announced she would go forward with her idea of introducing legislation, forcing Democrats to either vote against a popular-but-ridiculous idea in an election year, or vote for a policy that would boost oil company profits and undermine the environment.

Some of her biggest supporters — including Rep. Barney Frank and Sen. Patty Murray — both said yesterday that can’t support her bad idea. Rep. Mark Udall, an uncommitted superdelegate who’s running for the Senate in Colorado, went even further, calling Clinton’s proposal a “bumper-sticker fix” that wouldn’t “fix anything.” Udall added, “We can’t afford more Washington-style pandering while families keep getting squeezed. It is exactly the kind of short-sighted Washington game that keeps us from getting real results to our energy problem.”

Also yesterday, Clinton told voters in North Carolina:

“We ought to say: Wait a minute, we’d rather have the oil companies pay the gas tax than the drivers of North Carolina, especially the truck drivers, or the farmers, or other people who have to commute long distances.”

This is just factually wrong on multiple levels.

Looking at the big picture, John Dickerson notes that Clinton’s campaigning on this has a familiar feel:

Embracing intellectual obtuseness and deflecting criticism with charges of elitism is a tactic George Bush often deployed while campaigning. It’s striking to see Clinton do it because she has been a regular and harsh critic of Bush’s blindness to expert opinion. It’s even more striking to hear her aides actually sound like Bush administration officials. When I asked Communications Director Howard Wolfson if the Clinton team could offer any intellectual ballast for the gas-tax vacation, given that so many policymakers had criticized it, he said, “The presidency requires leadership…. There are times when the president does something that the group of experts, quote unquote, does not agree with. Presidents get advice and then act, and that is what Senator Clinton is doing.” Or, as George Bush used to put it: A leader leads. Even if off a cliff.

Campaigns have ups and downs, but I can’t remember ever being this frustrated with Clinton.

Persistence and determination are qualities I want in a president. I do not want a president who endlessly weighs options, gives “thoughtful” answers that voters cannot understand and bends to pressure from the so-called experts on a subject.

Senator Clinton knows that the only opinion that matters is her base’s and that good policy is bad policy if it doesn’t help her get elected. There will be plenty of time to think about good government once she’s in the White House. She should be commended for her astute campaigning, not vilified as a Republican just because she shares John McCain’s views and just because every other Democrat is against this idea due to the almost-universal prejudice against her.

  • I agree with IFPs’ statement ..”Persistence and determination are qualities I want in a president. I do not want a president who endlessly weighs options, gives “thoughtful” answers that voters cannot understand and bends to pressure from the so-called experts on a subject”.. In light of that I propose that the amendment to the constitution limiting the presidency to two terms be rescinded and we can keep who’s already in office, who we know understands the principles as stated by IFP..

    But Senator in the in the WH, oh no, women belong at home…what is she thinking!

  • Anyone remember the article from the Atlantic released in late Jan/early Feb? The same one that detailed the failings of the Clinton campaign during the early days of Iowa and NH?

    One of the salient points was the fact that Hillary clung to people and ideas that failed her repeatedly because she refused to admit defeat or error. Sound familiar?

    There are times when being stubborn is a necessary thing. It’s usually when you have no other choice or when you’re right. She’s not right, in fact, she reminds me of another leader who clings to failed policies because despite failure. Actually plenty of leaders, all of them remembered for failure.

  • Republicans have been very successful at winning elections by pandering to voters with irresponsible promises of tax cuts. Their mantra is “It’s your money!” Hillary’s “me too” gasoline tax cut (copied from John McCain, of all people) is spectacularly dumb.

    I hope that most voters will realize how very dumb this idea is, but I’m not optimistic about it.

    I started off as an Edwards supporter, and I voted for Obama after Edwards withdrew. Hillary seemed to me to represent the past more than the future, but I always thought that she would be a fine Democratic candidate if she won the nomination. I will still vote Democratic against John McCain (aka Bush Lite), even if our candidate is that Old Yellow Dog that we Democrats talk about so much. But Hillary’s campaign has managed to piss me off a little more with each passing week. I like her less and less. Or is it dislike her more and more?

    Hillary: when you’re in a hole, stop digging!

  • The dumb idea ran counter to almost every positive quality Clinton has — her commitment to telling voters the truth, her intelligence, the seriousness with which she takes policy details, etc. The whole mess contradicts who Hillary Clinton really is, and she knows it.

    Another one for my ‘you’re too nice for your own good’ list — it’s a lovely sentiment, but it has *not* been born out by how she’s run her campaign from Day One (or at least from day one when it became a real contest). They weren’t serious about policy (primary/caucus) details, they haven’t shown much devotion to the truth…, they aren’t using their intelligence for anything but the win.

  • When this campaign started, every time someone said Hillary was a polarizing figure, I’d blame in on the “irrational Clinton hatred” hanging over from the 90’s. There wasn’t a problem with her, it was the way she was typecast by the wingnut right.

    After all these months on the campaign trail, she has truly become a polarizing figure. You are either with her or against her. This ultimatum places voters like myself who just want to see a return to Democratic sanity feeling more than a little queasy if Hill become the nominee, by hook or by crook.

    Whether it is Hillary herself or her advisors’ counsel, being stubborn in the face error is not strength. That’s mimicking George Bush. Strength is having the courage to make the correct choice after initially taking the opposing view. Hillary has become a spoonful of castor oil: we know we may have to take her but it will be a very hard swallow going down.

  • There is good reason to have prejudice against Hillary. She cares nothing for anyone but herself and her own lust for power. She’d throw her own mother and child under a bus for a few more votes. We don’t need another amoral president. I DO want a president who weighs options and gives thoughtful answers. I have to laugh at the suggestion her campaign is “astute”. She can’t even beat a black freshman senator. She can’t even manage her own campaign finances. Do we want her in charge of the finances of the entire country? She is totally incompetent to lead.

  • even if our candidate is that Old Yellow Dog that we Democrats talk about so much. But Hillary’s campaign has managed to piss me off a little more with each passing week. I like her less and less. Or is it dislike her more and more?

    Yup, I’ll do it, but I sure hope I don’t have to. It’ll be a vote for the Supreme Court, if it comes to that.

    And to answer your question, there’s a point when you cross over from the first (liking less and less) and head into the latter (disliking more and more). Soon your stomach just hurts when you see or hear anything more.

  • It’s unfortunately very clear that Hillary has no respect for the voters, believing they’re too dumb to see a cheap pander. It’s also unfortunate that with some, she’s right…. but she should be ashamed.
    I don’t want a President who targets the lowest common denominator. I’d prefer a president who challenges us to be smarter and better – Oh, wait…. that’s exactly what we’re getting! Obama 08!

  • “Presidents get advice and then act”…Clinton didn’t waste time getting her superhero title–“The Actor”.

  • Have you even bothered to ask yourself why an intelligent person with good advisors would go forward with a plan like this? Obviously not.

    We have the choice of watching gas prices go up this summer or watching them go up while the oil companies pay 9-18 cents of the tax usually paid by consumers. Somehow the latter is supposed to be a bigger boon to oil companies than the former. Economists all say so — as if anyone cares about their opinions except “elitist” wonks and conservatives.

    This plan had been voiced by consumers repeatedly until McCain latched onto it. Once he did, the Dems have to answer or they look like they don’t care about suffering consumers. Hillary took up that challenge with a plan that reduces the benefit to oil companies, and you all have criticized her for it, as if her goal were to put money in their pockets, not benefit consumers. Consumers know where their interests lie, so this is a winning issue for her, despite the complaints of Obama and economists. A chorus of Dems in the Congress saying that this is a bad idea won’t mean anything because they cannot explain coherently to voters why it is so bad. They only repeat it is going to help the oil companies, without saying how exactly and that isn’t working.

    Obama says that the few cents saved by consumers is too small to matter. That kind of remark digs his “elitist” grave deeper. The money certainly doesn’t matter to people with his income, but it definitely matters to people in dire financial straits, truckers, and businesses who transport goods. The $6 I would save each month might be the difference between making a credit card payment or not, or buying a school lunch. It might make it possible to suffer the inevitable increases this summer a little longer without toppling the household finances into default. If you are $6 short on a credit card bill (or 5 cents for that matter), then you incur the $29-35 late fee and your interest rate resets to a higher amount, on ALL of your credit cards, not just the one you cannot pay. Obama clearly doesn’t understand how these things work for people in financial stress or he wouldn’t deride small savings as chicken feed. Talk about foolish and stubborn remarks!

    Revisionist historians have derided much of the New Deal as ineffective against larger economic forces. They overlook the symbolic importance to the people affected by hard times of those programs. They overlook the necessity to take action of any kind in order to empower people to continue hope that the future will be better than the present. Hoover wanted to wait things out and let market forces correct the depression. Economists feel that higher gas prices will encourage people to drive less thus reducing demand and leading to lower gas prices as markets respond to reduced demand. The doesn’t happen as expected because (1) markets are not free to vary but manipulated by OPEC and speculators; (2) reduced demand in the USA is offset by increased demand in other countries; (3) much driving is not discretionary so there is a limit to how far reduced our demand can be. Those with higher incomes are switching to more fuel efficient cars, so that leaves poorer people to take the brunt of economist suggestions. Economists don’t care that some segments are more affected than others, nor do they care how much distress is needed to change trends. Politicians must care about that. Obama is being wonkish and listening to the economists instead of attending to the needs of his constituents. Various congress people are following him off that cliff because to do otherwise would be to support Clinton or even McCain.

    You cannot keep screaming “listen to the economists” whenever someone tells you Obama is wrong. Economists do not make policy for a reason. A good politician listens to many voices and tries to find a solution that will balance competing interests and needs. Economists do not do that. Obama apparently cannot do that either. In your Priuses and rapid-transit oriented large cities, you may think Obama makes perfect sense. Then you turn around and wonder why blue collar workers do not support Obama. Here is another reason why.

  • Steve Benen (emphasis added):
    Everything about Clinton’s idea is backwards — consumers lose, the environment loses, conservation loses, Big Oil wins. Clinton knows all of this — she’s far too smart to believe otherwise — but she insists on shamelessly pandering anyway.

    I was thinking pandering was too kind a word…
    And that “lying” or “demagoguing” might work better.
    But then I looked up “pander.” It’s second definition really does work rather well:

    To cater to the lower tastes and desires of others or exploit their weaknesses.

  • McCain is stupid and thinks you are too. HRC is smart but she’s counting on you being stupid and lazy. Obama is smart and thinks you are ready to awaken from the stupid, lazy stupor the likes of Clinton and McCain are determined to keep you in. Your choice, America.

  • The liberal-Dem-progressive blogosophere bursting at the seams with stories like mine, Okie’s and petorado’s. So many people liked Clinton just fine when this all began but have lost every shred of respect for her during this campaign. And yet, though most Clinton supporters are honest enough to recognize how badly Hillary and Bill have behaved these past few months, a few Clinton dead-enders blame it all on irrational Clinton hatred and, worse, sexism.

    When will they realize that people are accountable for their actions? It’s impossible not to compare these people to the insane few who still support Bush: the parallels between self-delusion, dishonesty, means justification and valuing loyalty over competence are too exact.

    Not only has Clinton not converted a single person who hated her before; she’s turned away millions of Democrats who previously defended her and her husband for years and years. I’ll vote for whomever gets the nomination, and I have no patience for self-described Democrats who won’t. But it’s hard to see how Clinton can win and then effectively govern with half the country refusing to vote for her under any circumstance, and much of the rest of it doing it with extreme contempt for her.

  • Those of you who think that IFP is a good satire on my views, please read today’s post by IFP and then read mine above (written before I saw IFP’s remarks). They are in no way similar. Ridiculing a straw man isn’t funny or smart — it is a waste of time and perhaps emotionally gratifying, but not in touch with reality, since you’re making up both sides of an imaginary conversation. You might use that energy to try and understand why so many people support Clinton, but instead you’d rather mock them. That is pretty close to a definition of elitist behavior, in my opinion.

  • Gotta reply to Mary – Hey, Mary! Here in Oregon, we’re rural, don’t drive Priuses, and no rapid transit! We’re certainly not elitest, and since my husband’s in the timber industry, I guess you could call us blue-collar! Speaking for myself, I’m what the MSM calls Hillary’s “demographic”. But……… we think, and we read. We want truth, respect, and intelligence in a President, as well as an even temper. Someone who can deal with an extremely difficult week with grace and dignity.
    Obama 08

  • “The whole mess contradicts who Hillary Clinton really is, and she knows it.”

    As a former admirer of Senator Clinton and her husband, I’m not sure that statement is true. The only thing she seems to “know” right now is that she is the only person qualified to be president and it doesn’t matter how she gets there. Like Joe Lieberman, all ends justify the means of getting elected.

    The thing that makes me shake my head in wonder are those that call Obama a “narcissist.”

  • please read today’s post by IFP and then read mine above (written before I saw IFP’s remarks). They are in no way similar.

    Mmmmm, but IFP’s post is remarkably similar to your previous posts on this topic, in which you expound at great, twisting length about how it’s all about getting votes and “outmaneuvering” Obama rather than about sound policy.

    How’s your head this morning? A little fuzzy? Feel a powerful thirst? You certainly put on quite a performance here last night. Remember any of it?

  • Those of you who think that IFP is a good satire on my views, please read today’s post by IFP and then read mine above (written before I saw IFP’s remarks). They are in no way similar.

    Thats pretty funny Mary. I don’t usually respond to you because I consider your arguments basically a self parody but IFP’s first paragraph is actually a succinct summary of your entire argument. You have simply chosen to hand wave away the arguments that economists are actually making with the insanely wrong claim that there is not some coherent argument out there for why this is a stupid idea. I am not sure why you would even bother making an argument on this site that is so demonstrably untrue but the fact that you think your argument is somehow more substantive is mostly just sad.

  • “The thing that makes me shake my head in wonder are those that call Obama a “narcissist.”

    TMoore–it’s called projection and you can read up on it in any Intro to Psych textbook. But I’m guessing you already knew that…

  • Mary–

    You gotta be exhausted working so hard to justify your support of Hillary to a roomful of people who barely listen to you as we shake our heads while thinking “poor thing, she’s just so delusional.” Iin all seriousness, I really hope you have good mental health insurance and are able to get the help you’re going to need when Obama gets the nomination.

    I was a Hillary supporter early on, but over time my support started to wane due to so many missteps on the campaign trail. So I took a much harder look at Obama. But now? I have lost all respect for her– her Republican ideaof a “gas tax holiday” proposal illustrates exactly why. It’s a BAD idea that won’t even do what she says it will do, Hillary is smart enough to know this, but SHE WON’T LET IT GO. Now she’s shoving it down the throats of congress and daring people to defy her and vote against it. Isn’t this exactly what we don’t like about Bush? That he’s rigid and stubborn in about what he wants to do regardless of the facts staring him in the face? That he expects 100% loyalty over everything else?

    She’s supposed to be the smart public policy wonk– right now she looks like a far bigger rookie than Obama.

  • Those of you who think that IFP is a good satire on my views, please read today’s post by IFP and then read mine above (written before I saw IFP’s remarks). They are in no way similar.

    IFP: I do not want a president who endlessly weighs options, gives “thoughtful” answers that voters cannot understand and bends to pressure from the so-called experts on a subject.

    MARY: Economists do not make policy for a reason. A good politician listens to many voices and tries to find a solution that will balance competing interests and needs. Economists do not do that.

    IFP: Senator Clinton knows that the only opinion that matters is her base’s and that good policy is bad policy if it doesn’t help her get elected.

    MARY: In your Priuses and rapid-transit oriented large cities, you may think Obama makes perfect sense. Then you turn around and wonder why blue collar workers do not support Obama.

  • Let’s hope other environmental leaders follow:

    Friends of the Earth Action, a national environmental group based in Washington, D.C., announced today that it is endorsing Senator Barack Obama to be the nation’s next president.

    “We endorse Senator Obama because we believe he is the best candidate for the environment,” said Friends of the Earth Action President Brent Blackwelder. “The ‘gas tax holiday’ debate is a defining moment in the presidential race. The two other candidates responded with sham solutions that won’t ease pain at the pump, but Senator Obama refused to play that typical Washington game. Instead, Obama called for real solutions that would make transportation more affordable and curb global warming. He showed the courage and candor we expect from a president.”

  • Yeesh.
    Reading some of the above posts, I’m having a disturbing sense of deja vu. I spent about an hour yesterday with someone I really like, but hadn’t seen for a while. He’s become a BIG Hillary supporter, and when I told him we were pro-Obama, he proceeded to load me up with the usual HRC line:
    – white working-class joes won’t vote for a black man, ever
    – Obama’s an interloper, spoiling Hil’s coronation
    – he’s inexperienced– we GAVE him a chance to be vice-pres, and he turned us down!
    And of course (wait for it)—–
    -what’s with the “Hussein” anyway? And he also had “Mohammed” in there, before he dropped it!

    I really like this guy, and I didn’t feel like arguing with him, even though I had answers for all of his “objections.” He was so strident that I wasn’t going to change his mind even a little bit, and frankly, anyone who’s a committed Democrat is my ally in this benighted state (Fla.) I tried to shut things down with a lame “well, I’m going to support the Democratic nominee, whoever it is. And campaign.”
    I had tried to switch the conversation to McCain’s free ride with the media, but he couldn’t be diverted from his main thesis: Hillary good, Barak disaster.

    Afterwards, I remembered something that Michael Shermer (Skeptic Magazine, “Why Do People Believe Weird Things?”, other books) said:
    “Everyone makes decisions based on emotion, then rationalizes the decision. Smart people can be easier to deceive because they’re better at constructing plausible rationalizations.” That’s a paraphrase, but that was the sense of it. EVERY voter ought to continually examine their choices and justifications, but let’s not lose sight of this: Another Republican President with do even more damage to this nation– irreparable in my opinion. This very divisive campaign only helps them.

    PS– I can’t tell if IFP is serious or just skating on paper-thin irony. She seems to be a Hil supporter, but, but the candidate she’s describing sounds an awful lot like you-know-who. I don’t think a Democratic GWB will solve anything.

  • You know, you’re right. If JimBob (for example) reads what I write and hears only what IFP says, then I am truly wasting my time here.

    Steve Benen’s point is that there cannot be any good reason for Clinton to persist. I tried to point out what I believe to be several good reasons, beyond the broken record of “the economists all say…”. But you have your fingers in your ears and are chanting loudly “la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you”. I’ll leave you to it.

    Here is your contradiction of the day. You cannot argue that all of the people who once supported Clinton are abandoning her in droves because of her campaign tactics, while her polling and other support is increasing to the point that even pro-Obama pundits are noting that Obama has lost momentum. These are incompatible with each other. Like so much of your argument here — OK when Obama does it, not OK for anyone else. ObamaWorship isn’t pretty.

  • But isn’t this insistence on “mistakes” Hillary’s campaign pattern in her determination to win the nomination? Do you REALLY think she has a commitment to telling the truth? There was her sniper fire story. She hit that mistaken note over and over again until she was forced to admit it wasn’t true. There is the delegate math that she ignores, determined to try a win at any cost, and that’s another wrong note she repeats.

    I am a musician, too, and the only way that repeating that wrong note works is if your audience doesn’t know the music. If they do, a far better “save” is to gracefully and nonchalantly slide into the right note and act as if the wrong note was just a creative preparation for it!

    So the big question is whether Indiana and NC voters know the oil tax music and if they recognize and flinch at the wrong note being played repeatedly and aggressively. My bet is that a lot of them don’t know it and don’t associate it with all the other wrong notes she’s played.

  • Mary-

    You are so on! We have Hillary’s back in Indiana. Obama has NO credibility. Only excuses, speeches and denouncements, He’s finished. No one believes his rhetoric any longer. I don’t know which one is MORE pathetic…him or Michelle. Hillary will take Indiana BIG and pull out North Carolina. GO Hillary GO! Party’s on Tuesday Night! Woo Hoo!!

  • IFP wrote: “Senator Clinton knows that the only opinion that matters is her base’s and that good policy is bad policy if it doesn’t help her get elected”

    That’s very true of Clinton…. Last week, Bill’s pardoned friend, Henry Cisneros,

    http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cisneros

    was campaigning for the senator in Raleigh, North Carolina and in Spanish, no less. He left public office under a cloud and Bill pardoned him in January of 2001, In spite of that, it makes sense because right now, Hillary needs bilingual campaigners with whom her latinos in North Carolina and Indiana can identify and who can speak in Spanish, as he did, about her immigration amnesty plan. Good move. Regadless of whether she can deliver on the plan or not, right now, maintaining her Hispanic base is what is important to her.

  • Just more proof:

    We don’t need a bush-clinton-bush-clinton dynasty and shillary will say/do anything to get elected. Then, she will continue to represent the elites and military-industrial complex behind dur chimpfurher.

    Americans overwhelmingly want change. Our nation was not founded to be a monarchy of 2 elite families that ultimately represent the same interests.

  • If Hillary wins the nomination Obama should sink her by not actively bringing his supporters in. Nothing too overt, just damn her with faint praise. She’ll lose to McCain and then have that “loser stench” on her. Her dream will be dead and the whole Clinton nightmare will be gone forever. He can run again in 2012 after the bozos who voted for her realize their mistake when gas is at $6 a gallon and we’re still in Iraq with Mr. “100 years” McCain.

    Doesn’t anyone ever question why the uneducated are voting for Hillary? That should tell you something.

  • Mary, I want to thank you for helping me to see the light. That $6 is really gonna help me. I can buy a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread and take ketchup packets from mickey d’s to feed my family…for the month. Course I wont be able to drive to the store cause the roads are for shit anyway, so I guess I’ll just put that $6 in my health savings account. That’s the trick…gee, thanks Mary for helping me see the light…it all makes sense now…could I have some more kool-ade please?

  • Mary– did you really just say that the people here are guilty of worshipping Obama?

    Seriously?!?!?

    Get some help. You don’t just worship Hillary, you sit at her feet and wash them with your hair.

    You’re not convincing anyone here of anything because you are completely out of touch with reality. If you were arguing on Obama’s behalf I’d be equally turned off by your mental gymnastics.

  • How is constructing the type of rail transportation Obama describes going to help most rural Americans, including Linda in Oregon, even long term, much less meet current
    stresses on low income people’s budgets? Who are the impractical ones? Obviously neither you or your candidate are feeling pinched by the current problems with high prices in gasoline and all commodities transported by vehicles using it, much less by the real problem some people have just getting to work and putting food on the table because of current prices at the pump. .Who is out of touch with the ordinary American?

  • Weather vane politics.
    It worked for one Clinton, why not the next?

    You know… I’ll take 4 years of McCain and a crushing progressive Democratic majority in 2010, thank you. I don’t need the White House this bad.

  • Don– um, no.

    If Hillary somehow FAIRLY gets the nomination– if Obama completely and totally falls apart– then Hillary is CLEARLY a better choice than McCain.

    Otherwise what we’re arguing here is pointless because the SDs are not going to support HIllary when Obama is truly winning the contest by delegates, popular vote and number of states won. If they were going to support Hillary they would have declared EONS ago.

    Hillary isn’t hurting the party now nearly as much as the SDs are– they need to stop dragging this out.

  • Impartial- It will help rural Americans by reducing the demand for gasoline and thereby bringing the price down over the long term. Tell the construction worker who loses his job because the highway fund runs out of money due to the summer tax break that its worth it.

  • # 34
    Nice that you have a health savings account;many Americans have no health insurance or are paying exorbitant premiums relative to their income for inadequate coverage. Guess that is why you support a candidate who does not support universal health for all, just for children. He must have a y health savings account too. Again, both are out of touch with most ordinary Americans.

  • # 39 How long do you practical[people think constructing rail systems take? And your answer is a stretch at best. Rural people will see little benefit; urban people will benefit.
    Not to say this is not a good idea long term, but it cwertainly doesn’t address current problems.

  • Is this the same Mary in this thread talking about how she respects Clinton for not pandering and for standing up for the right thing even when it hurts her politically? It certainly sounds like the same person who posts here.

  • this actually could be obama’s greatest opportunity. we all know that he can speak well (as evidenced by his denunciation of wright earlier this week). what he should do is to just very briefly outline all of the reasons why this is a stupid idea, and end with a statement such as, “hillary’s ridiculous proposal is just another example of typical washington pandering to get your votes. america doesn’t need more pandering, we need elected officials who will tell you the truth and act responsibly.”

  • “The dumb idea ran counter to almost every positive quality Clinton has — her commitment to telling voters the truth, her intelligence, the seriousness with which she takes policy details, etc. The whole mess contradicts who Hillary Clinton really is, and she knows it.”

    Clinton’s positive qualities–are you nuts?

    1. Commitment to telling voters the truth –she lies or grossly exaggerates just about every time she opens her mouth. (e.g. dodging bullets in Bosnia, that poor uninsured woman who died because the hospital wouldn’t treat her–only she was insured and the hospital did treat her, misrepresenting Obama’s positions and twisting his words. 2. Her intelligence–she’s run the stupidest campaign I’ve ever seen (not planning a campaign beyond Super Tuesday, dissing states she lost, telling pointless lies, allowing her sense of entitlement to outshine everything else about her campaign, etc. etc.) 3. Seriousness about policy details. Her policy details so far have involved pandering to whomever she talks to (gas tax holiday foolishness, nuke Iran, I have no evidence Obama is a Muslim, etc., etc.)

  • Impartial said:
    How is constructing the type of rail transportation Obama describes going to help most rural Americans, including Linda in Oregon, even long term, much less meet current stresses on low income people’s budgets?

    Impartial, I dont really think of myself as low-income…I know I make more money than a lot of other people and my life in comparison is pretty good, but $40,000 for a family of 3 doesn’t really go that far and yes, I want changes; however I dont expect quick fixes. I am intelligent enough to understand that there has to be long term solutions in place. People who expect quick fixes believe in the tooth fairy, santa clause and magic wands (ala bush) and that’s just not reality.

    I’ll forgo circuses and cake…I opt for reality and hard work and not taking advantage of those with less than me.

  • Thinking short term got us into this mess. Enacting short term band-aids will only make the problem worse for everyone. Sure, why not borrow money from China to give Joe redneck an extra $50 this summer and push off the hard choices which will result in him paying much more in the long run. Maybe Joe redneck should stop driving a gas-guzzling pickup truck. But no, you want the pickup AND low gas prices. Sorry, that time is long past. Feel the pain of the previous stupid choices for president who did nothing about the energy problem. Now you want to repeat the mistake.

  • How is constructing the type of rail transportation Obama describes going to help most rural Americans, including Linda in Oregon, even long term, much less meet current stresses on low income people’s budgets?

    In the short term, it won’t. Not at all. The point is that neither will lifting the gas tax. Despite attempts by people like Mary to simply wave away the obvious economic factors involved, the bottom line is that there is no reason to believe that lifting the tax will lower the price at all and even if it does lower it some minimal amount for a very short period, it will do so at the cost of Highway funds that provide jobs and infrastructure.

    In the long term, better rail systems have the potential to lower both the overall demand and our increasing dependence on exported oil. Theoretically this could work to lower the cost for everybody including rural Americans. Of course, its more complicated than that and there are many other factors involved including foreign demand for oil. But the point is that it is a solution that at least attempts to address the problem as opposed to pretending that economic factors do not exist. It is an attempted solution that Clinton herself also supports by the way.

  • Perhaps Mary or someone could explain to me, a guy who isn’t an economist but has plain common sense, just HOW Hillary’s proposal gets me even as much saving as Obama laughs at.

    Why won’t the gas station just raise its base price the equivalent amount when the gas tax goes away? I’ll end up paying JUST AS MUCH per gallon as I do now.

    You can quibble about just where in the accounting the tax gets paid, as an assessment per gallon or in some hypothetical windfall tax we don’t have yet, but who cares? When I fill my tank, the price per gallon I pay won’t decrease just because the gas tax goes away.

    Mary, if you really think you’ll be saving $6 a month, explain why the gas station won’t just keep the current price and pocket the money.

  • Again, both are out of touch with most ordinary Americans.

    I am educated, middle class, live in a city, and guess what, I am also an ordinary American. The tendency of people to casually insult wide swaths of people who don’t share their specific values as non-ordinary has to be the most pernicious element of American rhetoric. Its deeply annoying to me and incredibly condescending and dismissive in a way that I would never even consider being.

  • Foxxy from Indiana said: “You are so on! We have Hillary’s back in Indiana”

    Youtube carried a tape yesterday where a Clinton advisor and top strategist for the Clinton Gore campaign clearly said a four letter expletive in reference to Indianans. He was addressing his mocking comments to James Carville.

    Thousands of viewers clearly saw what was said, but the powerful Clintons forced Youtube to remove all the tapes threatening libel and saying they were doctored. The tape I saw was not doctored and I would ask the viewers to check that fact for themselves but it’s no longer available. The tape showed three campaign staffers, full of themselves poking fun at a state that was not important to them at that time.
    After Kantor says “#@##” he hams it up for the camera and says “sorry” and then smiles, he then goes over to George Stephanopoulos who is shaking his head incredulously. I am glad that both the tape on Bosnia and the more recent tape
    on Clinton’s misspeak as to Valparaiso, Indiana: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWaBgVjmAQ&NR=1
    are news tapes that she may not be able to eradicate. You may want to take a look, though, before she forces them out of Youtube, too. I hope those who saw the tape remember the awesome power that this candidate has to expunge evidence that may lay bare the truth behind the facade.
    GO INDIANA!

  • #49 “In the short term it won’t Exactly. So Obama is comparing apples and oranges,

    More rail is a good idea but it doesn’t recognize or address immediate needs. I’m sure Clinton would agree that more rail is a good idea long term as well as would most Democratic or progressive people. As ands was pointed out above, every little bit helps for some and the idea is at least a recongnition that people are feeling the pinch. No one believes this is a long term solution. You don’t give average people enough credit.

    Universal health care is a real need in this country and those who do not recognize this
    are out of touch with the crisis we have in this area.

  • #49 “In the short term it won’t Exactly. So Obama is comparing apples and oranges,

    More rail is a good idea but it doesn’t recognize or address immediate needs. I’m sure Clinton would agree that more rail is a good idea long term as well as would most Democratic or progressive people. As and as was pointed out above, every little bit helps for some and the idea is at least a recognition that people are feeling the pinch. No one believes this is a long term solution. You don’t give average people enough credit.

    Universal health care is a real need in this country and those who do not recognize this
    are out of touch with the crisis we have in this area.

  • in jazz, there really aren’t any wrong notes (dissonant ones, yes; and ones generally suggested to be avoided [e.g. b9 in a major mode in a non V7 chord]), but in politics there are PLENTY of wrong notes.

    but as bushco has proven, and hillary seems willing to adopt, you can condition people to just about anything if you repeat it often enough.

  • More rail is a good idea but it doesn’t recognize or address immediate needs.

    Who says it is? Not Obama or anyone else. Wat they are saying is that there are no short term solutions and raising the gas tax is most certainly not one of them. Its a pretend solution to a real problem. One that can only be addressed by long term thinking.

    As ands was pointed out above, every little bit helps for some and the idea is at least a recongnition that people are feeling the pinch. No one believes this is a long term solution. You don’t give average people enough credit.

    You are being deliberately obtuse. The point is, one many have stated and which you have deliberately chosen to ignore, what Clinton is proposing is not even a short term solution. To pretend that it is is the insult to people’s intelligence. It won’t lower the price and if it does by some minimal amount, it will cost us in several ways in the long term by removing revenue that is dedicated to infrastructure and by actually raising the cost later by increasing demand. You may pretend not to understand this if you wish but at the end of it all, you are the one insulting people’s intelligence when you do.

  • Impartial, Im sorry, but $6, $12, $24 a month does not recognize my immediate needs, but it sure will make my long term needs worse…if I can maintain the status quo while the country works towards a long term solution I can deal with that.

    You are absolutely right about universal healthcare being a real need in this country..another long term goal to work on. Unfortunately no one has a plan for univeral healthcare at this time..once we get someone decent in office…then we can decapitate the insurance companies and overhaul the system…

  • Someone above said: “Doesn’t anyone ever question why the uneducated are voting for Hillary? That should tell you something.”

    First: fuck you. This kind of kick-the-working-class rhetoric has no place, NO PLACE in the Democratic party.

    Second, I am from the working class–Franklin Park, Illinois, thank you, and you can kiss my Phi Beta Kappa Key and my Law degree, buddy.

    As Jimmy Stewart once said, we (the working class) do most of the working and the living and the dying in this country. IT IS THIS EXPERIENCE THAT MAKES US LEERY OF OBAMA. How many promises have we been made? For how long? HE’S A POLITICIAN, CREEP. His specialty in Springfield was winning poker hands from lobbyists. (Yeah, I know, that’s the way Abrahamoff passed money to his politician friends.) Oh, yeah, and taking credit for bills he didn’t write because Emil Jones wanted to be the kingmaker. And by the way, Obama’s rhetoric doesn’t strike a chord with working class people because–get this–we ALREADY KNEW CHANGE IS NECESSARY. NO BUMPERSTICKER NEEDED.

    GROW UP. Maybe, you could give Hillary supporters some respect, say, by thinking they support her because, on balance, they think she can run the country better. And don’t you EVER insult someone’s intellegence. Yours is completely suspect.

  • Elen: you should note the retractions that everybody has already made regarding the YouTube clip of the Clinton adviser supposedly calling people from Indiana “shit.” It was not pulled because of Clinton pressure; the tape was doctored. Check out Media Matters, for instance, for the full scoop.

  • I tried to point out what I believe to be several good reasons, beyond the broken record of “the economists all say…”. But you have your fingers in your ears and are chanting loudly “la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you”.

    The person with fingers in the ears is you, Mary. The economic argument you refer to so derisively destroys your position. If you won’t engage it (and dismissing it is not engaging it) you have nothing to stand on. Supporting Hillary on this issue means ignoring economic facts and pandering to ignorance.

  • Supporting Hillary on this issue means ignoring economic facts and pandering to ignorance.

    …which is remarkably close to what IFP said, when you think of it. Huh.

  • Oooh, big tough girl slams open the door with guns blazing. You’ve been out drinking beer and whiskey shots with Hillary, I see.

  • Pandering has become Clinton’s new strategy. She’s even willing to pander to get try to pick up votes in Guam (where so far she’s losing despite this). She’s suddenly backing the right of the people of Guam to vote for president in the general election:

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=3229

  • O.K. Rant causes spelling error?

    And some spelling errors are just funnier than others.

    Calm down, baby. Your over-the-top drama show is the only post here that curiously equates lack of education with “working class” status or “intellegence.” People with less than a high-school education are going for Clinton 65-25. Deal with it, or take it up with Herself if you like.

  • I made the comment about the uneducated voting for Hillary. It’s a simple, provable fact. The so-called “working class” continually buys stupid arguments from politicians who turn around and screw them. There is a huge line of lobbyists and big-money supporters behind Clinton who are waiting for their paydays and it will come out of your pocket and and then you will smile and say “Thank you Hillary, may I have another?” These are the same bozos who care about trivia like Wright and Ayers, etc. but not that Hillary voted to send their kid to Iraq and just threatened to “obliterate” Iran. Stupid is as stupid does.

  • The correlation between education and which candidate one supports is quite clear. This does not mean that every Clinton supporter is unintelligent. There are many otherwise intelligent Clinton supporters who back her for a variety of reasons. The most common reason is that they want a female to be president so badly that they don’t care that she is ethically unfit for such a position and that, despite all their claims, has less meaningful experience than Obama. Others back her because they have been mislead to believe that her higly flawed economic policies would be more beneficial to them (which some might argue is a sign of less intelligence). In these cases, pandering does work.

  • Hillary is openly and shamelessly pandering to the “working class” through her “gas tax holiday” in a way that totally demeans and insults the intelligence of those who didn’t go beyond high school. She’s hoping that they’re all stupid enough not understand that this is a REPUBLICAN plan, that the Dem party overall and economists everywhere (except for GOP economists) think this is a stupid, useless idea. She then has the nerve to say that anyone who rejects it doesn’t understand that saving roughly $30 over a three month period is a huge boon for those of us who are struggling to make ends meet.

    Who is insulting the “working class” again? Who is out-of-touch?

  • RonChusid

    I just read the bit about Hillary promising she’ll get the votes in Guam counted for the election, too.

    FWIW, there are problems with Hillary’s promise. From the admittedly deficient Wikipedia this gives us some clues:

    In the 1980s and early 1990s, there was a significant movement in favor of the territory [Guam] becoming a commonwealth, which would give it a level of self-government similar to Puerto Rico and the Northern Mariana Islands. However, the federal government rejected the commonwealth version that the government of Guam proposed, due to it having clauses incompatible with the Territorial Clause (Art. IV, Sec. 3, cl. 2) of the United States Constitution. Competing movements with less significant influence exist, which advocate political independence from the United States, statehood, union with the Northern Mariana Islands as a single territory, or union with the current U.S. state of Hawaii.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam#Government_and_politics

    She is nothing but irresponsible for making such a suggestion. America has too much else on its plate that needs seeing to in the near future, like the economy, the falling dollar, the terrible fallout from GW Bush’s illegal wars, the eroding protections of the Constitution, and America’s place in the world..

  • It’s also true that the middle and lower class bear the huge brunt of the losses in Iraq. She sent those boys there without even reading the NIE. That is gross negligence and should disqualify her from being Commander in Chief. The next time you working class people vote for Clinton, you should remeber she is partly responsible for the 4000+ body bags that have come home.

  • Gloria said: Elen: you should note the retractions that everybody has already made regarding the YouTube clip of the Clinton adviser supposedly calling people from Indiana “shit.” It was not pulled because of Clinton pressure; the tape was doctored. Check out Media Matters, for instance, for the full scoop”

    Exactly my point, Gloria. There was one tape that allegedly had Kantor saying “white niggers” that he vowed he had never said. That tape was removed, I never saw it. The tape I saw had no such slur, and Kanter DID NOT deny saying “shit” He has tried to say it was “shitting” . That was the actual footage of a filming they were doing on the “war room”. It is only important because Indiana, today, right now, is very important.. If you saw the tape as I did, he clearly said it….he made a mock face at the camera and said a smiling “sorry” then walked over to George. That tape was not doctored but both tapes got pulled and the media has done a big thing about denouncing them.

    Now tell me, In spite of the horror of Wright’s words, would anyone say that to splice what was said on various ocassions into one tape is not doctoring? That tape was never pulled, instead the media played it on and on and on and the only one that denouced Soren for submitting the tape was Sen. McCain, to his credit.

    Would anyone deny that there was a deliberate misrepresentation of Bosnia even after ample evidence to the contrary. Even when the pilot a colonel, was saying that they would have NEVER landed the first lady and Chelsea if there had been a problem, campaign staffers were still spinning the story. And what about Valparaiso? Even Bayh, the representative of the people is spinning the story with Sen. Clinton in spite of the fact that by the time Bush was president the Chinese had gotten all they wanted during Bill’s presidency. The false information was even in her ad. The main reason it got publicity was because Valparaiso residents wrote angry letters chastising Clinton for assuming they had short memories.

    I don’t have your law degree or your Phi Beta Kappa keys but I have tried to stay informed in this campaign and I would rather have an intelligent individual who admits his mistakes, who sometimes seems stunned when blindsided but who doesn’t try address my financial woes with a hokey gas proposal than an equally intelligent individual who is considered untrustworthy by a large percentage of the voters.

  • A wrong note???

    Really, tell that to Marc Rich, that was not a wrong note either.

    What about when Clinton told a group of people that she would alway fight for our “economic interest” in Iraq? Perhaps her “commitment” isn’t with the American people but rather with Corporate American. Isn’t that why she voted for the bankrupcty bill before deciding that appearance count and voted against it.

    Hillary is like Bush in 2000, saying one thing but clearly supporting the exact opposite. ANYWAY, why not show picture after picture of the collapesd bridge over an over again in an ad – isn’t this money that Hillary simply pretends Americans don’t need anymore.

  • On May 3rd, 2008 at 12:03 pm, Don said:

    If Hillary wins the nomination Obama should sink her by not actively bringing his supporters in. Nothing too overt, just damn her with faint praise. She’ll lose to McCain and then have that “loser stench” on her. Her dream will be dead and the whole Clinton nightmare will be gone forever. He can run again in 2012 after the bozos who voted for her realize their mistake when gas is at $6 a gallon and we’re still in Iraq with Mr. “100 years” McCain.

    Don, this is a very short-sighted position to take. This country cannot afford 4 more years of a GOP president. Think Supreme Court appointments! From John Dean’s book, “Broken Government:” From a lifelong Republican who knows Bush and Cheney personally “Just tell your readers that you have a source who knows a lot about the Republican Party from long experience, that he knows all the key movers and shakers, and he has a bit of advice: People should not vote for ANY Republican, because they’re dangerous, dishonest, and self-serving. ……heaven forbid not eight years, under the Republicans and our grandchildren will have to build a new government, because the one we have will be unrecognizable and unworkable.”

  • “….because they’re dangerous, dishonest, and self-serving.”

    Sound like the Hillary we’ve all come to know. After 4000+ body bags, we certainly know she’s dangerous and I don’t think you’d find anyone less dishonest and self-serving.

  • When faced with terrible choices for president, we are often best off when the White House and Congress are controlled by the opposite party. At least there is some hope that Congress will keep the president in line. A Democratic Congress and McCain or a Republican Congress and Clinton would be far safer than having both bodies under the control of the same party.

    A Clinton victory means that the Clintons control the Democratic Party for at least four more years, and probably eight years and beyond. To paraphrase:

    “People should not vote for ANY Clinton, because they’re dangerous, dishonest, and self-serving. ……heaven forbid not eight years, under the Clintons and our grandchildren will have to build a new party, because the one we have will be unrecognizable and unworkable”

    The Republicans under McCain would at least not be as bad as under Bush, despite all the attempts to claim that he is just as bad. The Democrats under Clinton offer no meaningful alternative. In some areas Clinton has moved to the right of McCain. I see no reason to believe a Clinton administration would be much better than a McCain adminsitration. Considering the Clinton strategy of moving to the right it might even be worse. At least with McCain as opposed to Clinton we would have the Democrats in opposition, and a chance to mount another campaign in 2012.

  • Don, I’m an Obama supporter. I’m very unhappy with Hillary and never trusted her from the start. Though I can easily find others more dishonest and self-serving…and they include McCain. If I had to, I’d vote for Hil to prevent another GOP presidency.

  • The Clintons’ policies–to the extent that you can credit their own words after, um, divergences from the progressive mainstream such as the gas tax holiday (which is exactly what Obama describes it as: a gimmick that’s worse than doing nothing since it doesn’t address root causes of the problem) and “Nuke Iran, nuke nuke Iran”–are clearly preferable to McCain’s.

    But I trust McCain’s character far more than I do either of those two sociopathic narcissists. (And for the record, I don’t particularly trust McCain’s character; its just that he has shown some commitment to principle at times, which Hillary certainly never has and Bill hasn’t in at least 11 years or so.)

    So I honestly think that the preferable outcome, should she wrest away the nomination, would be a McCain White House and a very strong Democratic Congress that wouldn’t allow extremist court appointments or authorize any new wars.

    How realistic that scenario might be is certainly open to debate; if the Democrats can’t stand up to Bush, who’s miserably unpopular and unambiguously wrong about everything, it’s uncertain at best that they would forcibly resist McCain. But at least that wouldn’t open the door for Romney or Jeb Bush or some other right-wing monster in 2012, with a Republican Congress… an outcome that the Clinton Restoration would make pretty much inevitable.

  • Clinton knows that the gas holiday won’t happen, because Pelosi has made it clear that it is a non-starter. That’s why Clinton is scurrying around, making promises she’ll never be called on to keep. The same is true of the Guam proposal. What Clinton is doing is drumming out false outrage against fellow-Democrats by offering proposals that the people in Congress are too sensible to pass. It’s another way for her to present her Washington insider self as a champion of the people.

    Of course, we have 111 million little green reasons not to believe her, as well as Tuzla, the discovery that her record is thinner than an onion skin, and the latest round of hypocrisies and race-baiting by her and her surrogates. Hillary Clinton is a fraud, unfit for any position of public responsibility, and a traitor to her party. As for her alleged competence, personally, I am a bit oldfashioned, but I think people who live in the real world ought to be able to work a coffee machine. If she can’t get her own coffee like the rest of us, how the hell will she manage the economy and foreign policy?

  • Senator Tom Carper of DE was interviewed yesterday on a local radio station (WSTW) and was asked by the host what he thought of Hillary’s gas tax proposal. He stated that it was “the worst kind of election year pandering”. Prior to this I would have thought that Carper was a likely Clinton-leaner as a superdelegate. I guess the thought of getting put on the spot like this doesn’t sit well with him or other uncommitted supers.

  • Gotta answer “Impartial # 36” who wants to know how constructing rail transportation is going to help rural folks like me. I’ll tell you how. Any decrease in fossil fuels used anywhere helps me! I share the earth with all of you – (although we have the most beautiful corner of it) – My kid’s in Iraq right now because – as John McCain just admitted – it’s all about oil. Obama’s ideas help all of us, because they’re about Big Picture – not something as transient and short-term as a Gas tax holiday to garner votes. Senator Clinton is counting on the short-sighted selfishness of a limited “low-information” constituency. Sad. I have to say – In Oregon we pay more per gallon than most of the country. We’re predominently white, middle-class, and we’ve seen good timber industry jobs lost to lousy WalMart jobs. We’re 12 points up for Obama, according to the latest Rasmussen poll.

  • All this crap and for what? Clinton herself admits that it would only save families *SEVENTY* dollars over a *SUMMER* (though I’d expect her math to be exaggerated.) Sly for her to add it all together and come up with the 8 billion dollar number – much more impressive to the average American, but who here (who doesn’t have the word “insane” in their name) is fooled? Once again, Clinton sides with McCain and shows she’s willing to pander to idiots who have trouble with simple math. And the whole “with us or against us” thing? Oh, baby, I think she just lost my vote even if she can manage to become the Democratic nominee. I hate to say it since I started this race thinking I’d vote for Clinton, but doesn’t it seem like a vote for Clinton is like a vote for the same ol’ Republican crap? It’s like McCain is a wolf, but Clinton is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. She’s trying very hard to mimic Bush in her speech because she thinks it will help her win? That’s a hoot. All it does is make me want to see her fail.

  • Zesty debate above, and I, as usual, am late to the party.
    A few thoughts:
    Mark Udall, why are you still undecided? Cast your lot with Obama and move this thing a bit closer to being settled.

    I am in the same camp as petorado, Okie FromMuskogee, and Maria. Once it became a two candidate race for the Democrats, I was prepared to support either enthusiastically. Then Senator Clinton (and that 800 lb-gorilla appendage that is her husband) began saying and doing things that left increasingly bad tastes in my mouth. The “CinC threshold” was the tipping point for me. Since then, I have stopped being able to listen to Senator Clinton’s stump speeches (which I used to believe were very good), as they began to feel like insults to me and curdle in my ears. I found her words and actions away from her stump speech indicated that she takes the electorate – universally – to be fools. As a result I began to find her stump speeches ringing more and more hollow and swinging from that strident tone I never liked to that syrupy “Who’s Your Grandma” tone I find dishonest. If she manages to wrest the nomination from Obama, I will vote for her in November because I do not believe the SCOTUS can survive a Republican presidency at this point in our history. [Think Scalia intoning with “all” seriousness, (in essence), who equates torture with punishment?] Honestly, the SCOTUS is a generational matter or great import. As I have said here many times, it will be the primary issue that drives me to the polls this November.

    Can working folks understand the sham that is the gas tax holiday? Can they figure that out? Well let’s see. Gas tax prices keep going up in ways that do not appear rational to me. Go to sleep at $3.62 / gallon and awake to $3.81. And the market continues to bear it – or in the parlance of those pesky economists – the prices continue to clear as they climb. A federal gas tax holiday simply gives the oil companies and additional $.18 / gallon to play with as they test the market place. All that money goes straight to their bottom line. Nothing, nothing stands in their way from raising prices to completely take away the impact of the “holiday.” Further, a windfall profits tax could simply will incent them to do just that. Tough to figure out? I think not. In the meantime, nothing meaningful has been done to address the underlying reasons for the fix we are in, and perhaps matters are made worth. But the important thing to Clinton is that it appears she has done something for the little guy.

    gloria: You want some respect from me? Don’t introduce yourself to me with a hearty “Fuck you,” either literally (as you chose to do) or figuratively. I do not disrepect supporters of Hillary Clinton. I do believe – in agreement w/petorado – that Senator Clinton has become a polarizing figure in this campaign and that her persistance is sapping the Democratic party of some of important energy. That is my opinion. If she gets the nomination, I will vote for her. I will not send her money; I will pray that our chances for the White House are not foiled by early onset “Clinton fatigue,” which I believe will be a factor. I know the Senator feels that the fact that all her baggage is well know means that it cannot be gone through again, but I think she is dead wrong about that. And, if she has to fight her husband for the lime light – another good possibility, IMO, anything can happen.

  • In the meantime, nothing meaningful has been done to address the underlying reasons for the fix we are in, and perhaps matters are made worth.

    Should be “matters are made worse.

  • So—is it time to start calling She-Unworthy-of-Naming “the Bush-churian Candidate” yet?

    And for the rambling ninnyhammer flaunting a PBK key and a law degree—those keys are available on eBay now, and a law degree is about as meaningful as a bucket of used Chinese coal at the bottom of the Yangtze River (you can get them online these days, you know, for about $69.95—they rank right down there with an Earl Scheib “I’ll paint any car any color for only $29.95” paint job). In order to first tell someone not to question intelligence, you must first demonstrate the existence of that intelligence. Blathering Foxylvanians that imitate the contents of a National Enquirer do not indicate such to most people….

  • I’m pretty much with Tuimel on Hillary – if it came to her vs. McCain she’d get both my vote and my disgust. However I really doubt she has any possibility of actually getting the nomination – I think her antics are pissing off the superdelegates. She’s just a spoiler now, doing what she can to hurt Obama’s chances in the general. I used to hope she’d just go back to the Senate and have a long career there. Now I just hope she goes away.

  • Simple answers to simple questions:

    Question: How do you spell “George W. Bush”?

    Answer: “Hillary R. Clinton.”

    I am proud of two things I never intend to change: 1. I have never ever watched one episode of “American Idol;” 2. I have never voted for a Clinton.

    I really have to thank Mrs. Billy-J for having over the past 3 months managing to triple my list of reasons not to vote for her from the already-long list I had going back to the first time I ever saw that self-entitled boomer bimbo lying in chorus with her con-artist husband about his multiple affairs.

  • Yeah, OK. So what? Sen. Obama supported pretty much the same thing when he was an Illinois legislator, and even voted for a temporary suspension of the state gas tax three times on the floor of the state senate, while quite rightly opposing its repeal altogether.

    But clearly, the idea’s not going anywhere, and the economic arguments both for and against fly over most people’s heads like so many helium balloons at the Super Bowl halftime show, so why berate the issue ad nauseum?

    And while I can agree in principle with opponents’ arguments that the gas tax holiday is in and of itself an inconsequential act, how many of these same opponents in Congress supported that $600 / taxpayer “rebate”, which is many respects is just as fruitless.

    What’s lost in the wonkish arguments of most opponents of the tax holiday — which in Mrs. Clinton’s proposal is not so much a holiday as it is a clear albeit temporary shift of the federal tax burden from the consumer to the supplier — is that while such gestures are largely symbolic, that symbolism can be potent medicine to a populace that feels increasingly beleaguered and besieged.

    In that regard, it’s not unlike the psychology underscoring President Franklin Roosevelt’s decision in the winter of 1942 to order Col. Jimmy Doolittle to plan and carry out an air raid on three major cities in imperial Japan, with only 16 B-25 medium bombers launched from the deck of an aircraft carrier. Tactically, the attack was certainly ineffectual; all the planes were lost, along with 20% of the men who carried out the mission. But Col. Doolittle’s audacious raid did absolute wonders for American public morale.

    (And as an aside, we only learned much later that it held the additional benefit of panicking the imperial Japanese high command, who hastily proceeded to order an invasion of Hawaii that would end disasterously at a tiny western Hawaiian island called Midway.)

    So, sometimes the prudent thing to do on paper isn’t necessarily the right thing to do in word and deed, and thus one follows the heart and acts accordingly. Mrs. Clinton apparently understands that concept as it applies to politics, while ironically the one politician who’s worked so very hard in this campaign to symbolize hope and change does not.

  • Hey, (Not so) “Impartial” – you lie as well as your candidate does (i.e., not very),

    But thanks for continuing to demonstrate what life at the 10th percentile of the intelligence quotient looks like.

  • Ron Chusid said: When faced with terrible choices for president, we are often best off when the White House and Congress are controlled by the opposite party. At least there is some hope that Congress will keep the president in line. A Democratic Congress and McCain or a Republican Congress and Clinton would be far safer than having both bodies under the control of the same party.

    Exactly.

    There happen to be nine retirements by Republicans in the Senate, and seven of them are possible pickups for Democrats. There are an additional four contested Republican seats where a good Democratic campaign could win. Thus, we could have a filibuster-proof Senate.

    There are thirty-two Republican retirements in the House, and 30 are possible Democratic pickups, plus another 12 contested seats where a good campaign could bring a Democratic win. Thus, a veto-proof House.

    I’d far rather have a filibuster-proof Senate and a veto-proof House, and McCain neutered in the White House, than vote for Hillary. It would mean the destruction of the Clintons and their consignment to future irrelevance, while we build an actual Democratic Party.

    The Clintons need to be gone!

  • Rule #1 – stop digging

    I loved the Clintons a long time ago. This is incredible to witness.

    Guam – Obama takes a village!

  • Ah, another would-be “military historian” (Donald, #90) steps up with an inappropriate and inaccurate historical analogy (that’s pretty much a hysterical analogy):

    In that regard, it’s not unlike the psychology underscoring President Franklin Roosevelt’s decision in the winter of 1942 to order Col. Jimmy Doolittle to plan and carry out an air raid on three major cities in imperial Japan, with only 16 B-25 medium bombers launched from the deck of an aircraft carrier. Tactically, the attack was certainly ineffectual; all the planes were lost, along with 20% of the men who carried out the mission. But Col. Doolittle’s audacious raid did absolute wonders for American public morale.

    More important than American public morale, the Doolittle Raid set the Japanese Navy on a quest to be certain the Americans could never again launch an attack on Japan, by taking the mid-Pacific base at Midway, while in so doing wiping out the carriers they’d missed at Pearl Harbor, Inflicting a defeat of such a magnitude could have meant the U.S. might possibly have sued for peace and at a minimum would have been unable to mount any attacks in the Pacific for several years. As we all know, the American victory in the Battle of Midway that June 4-6 was as important to establishing American world dominance as was the Royal Navy’s victory at Trafalgar.

    Sorry, Donald, regularly watching the Hysterical Channel does not a “military historian” make. Not to mention your comparison of the Doolittle Raid – which actually happened and had an actual major historical effect – with Mrs. Billy-J’s never-gonna-happen bit of poll-driven pandering completely doesn’t work as anything involving intellectual ability.

    Warning to the lot of you under-educated Hillary morons: I write “military” history for a living.

  • I don’t post here very often, but I don’t understand why this Mary person writes such long posts. Why doesn’t she just get her own blog instead of writing novel-like posts?

  • MY FELLOW “BITTER”, STUPID, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE 🙂

    If you think like Barack Obama, that WORKING CLASS PEOPLE are just a bunch of “BITTER”!, STUPID, PEASANTS, Cash COWS!, and CANNON FODDER. 🙁

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think Barack Obama with little or no experience would be better than Hillary Clinton with 35 years experience.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience can fix an economy on the verge of collapse better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) led the greatest economic expansion, and prosperity in American history.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal health care for all the American people.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience can manage, and get us out of two wars better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) went to war only when he was convinced that he absolutely had to. Then completed the mission in record time against a nuclear power. AND DID NOT LOSE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER. NOT ONE!

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience saving the environment is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) left office with the greatest amount of environmental cleanup, and protections in American history.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with little or no education experience is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) made higher education affordable for every American. And created higher job demand and starting salary’s than they had ever been before or since.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that Obama with no experience will be better than Hillary Clinton who spent 8 years at the right hand of President Bill Clinton. Who is already on record as one of the greatest Presidents in American history.

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think that you can change the way Washington works with pretty speeches from Obama, rather than with the experience, and political expertise of two master politicians ON YOUR SIDE like Hillary and Bill Clinton..

    You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you think all those Republicans voting for Obama in the Democratic primaries, and caucuses are doing so because they think he is a stronger Democratic candidate than Hillary Clinton. 🙂

    Best regards

    jacksmith… Working Class 🙂

    p.s. You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

    If you don’t know that the huge amounts of money funding the Obama campaign to try and defeat Hillary Clinton is coming in from the insurance, and medical industry, that has been ripping you off, and killing you and your children. And denying you, and your loved ones the life saving medical care you needed. All just so they can make more huge immoral profits for them-selves off of your suffering…

    You see, back in 1993 Hillary Clinton had the audacity, and nerve to try and get quality, affordable universal health care for everyone to prevent the suffering and needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of you each year. 🙂

    Approx. 100,000 of you die each year from medical accidents from a rush to profit by the insurance, and medical industry. Another 120,000 of you die each year from treatable illness that people in other developed countries don’t die from. And I could go on, and on…

    OBAMA AIDE: “WORKING-CLASS VOTERS NOT KEY FOR DEMOCRATS” 😮

    DEBATE! DEBATE!! DEBATE!!!…

  • DEBATE! DEBATE!! DEBATE!!!

    It’s time for everyone to face the truth. Barack Obama has no real chance of winning the national election in November at this time. His crushing defeat in Pennsylvania makes that fact crystal clear. His best, and only real chance of winning in November is on a ticket with Hillary Clinton as her VP.

    Hillary Clinton seemed almost somber at her Pennsylvania victory speech. As if part of her was hoping Obama could have proved he had some chance of winning against the republican attack machine, and their unlimited money, and resources.

    But it is absolutely essential that the democrats take back the Whitehouse in November. America, and the American people are in a very desperate condition now. And the whole World has been doing all that they can to help keep us propped up.

    Hillary Clinton say’s that the heat, and decisions in the Whitehouse are much tougher than the ones on the campaign trail. But I think Mr. Obama faces a test of whether he has what it takes to be a commander and chief by facing the difficult facts, and the truth before him. And by doing what is best for the American people by dropping out of the race, and offering his whole hearted assistance to Hillary Clinton to help her take back the Whitehouse for the American people, and the World.

    Mr. Obama is a great speaker. And I am confident he can explain to the American people the need, and wisdom of such a personal sacrifice for them. It should be clear to everyone by now that Hillary Clinton is fighting her heart out for the American people. She has known for a long time that Mr. Obama can not win this November. You have to remember that the Clinton’s have won the Whitehouse twice before. They know what it takes.

    If Mr. Obama fails his test of commander and chief we can only hope that Hillary Clinton can continue her heroic fight for the American people. And that she prevails. She will need all the continual support and help we can give her. She may fight like a superhuman. But she is only human.

    Sen. Hillary Clinton: “You know, more people have now voted for me than have voted for my opponent. In fact, I now have more votes than anybody has ever had in a primary contest for a nomination. And it’s also clear that we’ve got nine more important contests to go.”

    Sincerely

    Jacksmith… Working Class 🙂

  • Jackass, er, I mean Jacksmith, wrote: If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal health care for all the American people.

    One again, a Hillarymoron steps up and proves his ignorance beyond doubt. Why is it morons are never smart enough to know what morons they are, so they insist on proving it to everyone else?

    Dear idiot, here are the facts: Mrs. Billy-J, in here position of unelected “co-President”, BLEW IT on healthcare, with her super-secret “plan” that no one knew anything about, and therefore had no reason to defend from the inevitable attacks. She had no clue how to build a coalition in Congress in favor of the plan, rather expecting the little congressbots to “snap to” and march off to battle when her Imperial Stupidness gave them their marching orders. Big hint, it doesn’t work that way.

    Mrs. Billy-J blew health care from her incredible combination of arrogance, ignorance, and incompetence, setting the cause back 20 years, the same way she’s blowing it today from the same combination of arrogance, ignorance and incompetence for the woman who will be the first woman president, setting that event back a good 20 years to get rid of the bad taste she is leaving in her wake.

    Ignorant morons like you, who celebrate your ignorance, are why the working class continues to get screwed. And the rest of us are getting tired of “working class heroes” like you and “Gllllooooorrriiiiah!”

  • Midora:

    I don’t post here very often, but I don’t understand why this Mary person writes such long posts. Why doesn’t she just get her own blog instead of writing novel-like posts?

    Obviously she is mentally ill.
    I haven’t read a sentence of her’s for two months now.

    Thank god for scroll wheels and down arrows.
    Although life would be even better if browsers had some AI built in…

  • This Obama/Hillary split is starting to look like the Democrat/Republican split.

    Posts like jacksmith and Foxxy’s are are like what I’d expect to see on a wingnutter blog. Is this what happens when a candidate abandons the high ground and switches “working class” pandering/deception into high mode? Is this what happens when people get their knowledge from campaign commercials? I honestly am pretty shocked by the rapid de-evolution of Democrats.

  • Jacksmith,

    Most of your lengthy “argument” is too ridiculous to merit any kind of a detailed response but I will say this. A great deal of your argument seems to depend upon substituting Bill Clinton’s experience for hers. I can assure you that this sort of thing does her no favors as she desperately tries to make the case that she is the one running for President and not her husband.

    Moreover, attempting to use the debacle of her attempt at health care reform as a positive indicator of her leadership and political instincts is exactly the sort of thing that makes informed people think that you are a moron. I don’t blame her for trying but the fact is that it was a fiasco for which she can carry a great deal of the blame. Not a positive for her. You’re not helping her or the Democratic party with this sort of execrable rhetoric.

  • Apparently the gas tax holiday wasn’t too much pandering by Obama in Illinois. He thought it was a great idea. So great, in fact, that he voted for it THREE times and then voted against reinstating the tax. He even joked that gas stations should post signs on their pumps saying “Lower gas prices brought to you by Barack Obama.”

    Funny. Ha, ha.

    Obama is little more than an opportunist. The “outsider” who’s supported by all the insiders: Kerry, Kennedy, Rockefeller, Bingamon, Andrew, endorsed by Financial Times. Real change…

  • If your name is jackmith…

    You Might Be An Idiot! (sorry, dont know how to do emoticons..)

  • Federal Gas Tax on fuel goes to federal projects on interstates. Remember that interstate bridge that collapsed this past year? Without federal funding…thanks to the “gas holiday” make sure you have a hard hat. Most supporters of this “holiday” have heads thick enough to withstand impat.

    Obama’s vote was to suspend the state tax in his state. It failed thrice. He has learned from this episode, he stopped “digging”. Actually the signs would have said, brought to you by the Illinois Government, but that never passed.

    Jacksmith wrote of working class kids being sent to war as “cannon fodder”. He is correct, thanks, in part to a Senator that didn’t even read the “intellegence” report regarding said issue.

    Regarding the environment, Earthwatch has just endorsed Obama, they “might be idiots”. However, a “gas tax holiday” will only increase consumption during summer (vacation driving), which will cause more damage to our pollution issues and further depleat the dwindling oil resources. Great plan Hilliary, which was backed by a member of Gulf oil, (really? Shocking, gasp). Also, when the honeymoon is over on the gas holiday, and its timke to put that tax back, it will spike when it’s cooler out. So those that use heating oil (Ohio, Penn, I am looking at you…) will see a dramamtic spike just when you get that chill. So think it through, sheep. You will need your wool or face a “bitter” winter.

    And now to dig up some trash….
    Right now I could use some of that money that was spent on investigating Mr. Clinton when he lied to us about his love of cigars. I am sure that entire episode cost me about 30 cents a day.

    Jacksmith…I “might be an idiot” for backing Obama.

    But if you are for this woman’s gas tax plan… You ARE an idiot.

  • Everyone ignore Jacksmith– he’s a drive-by thread killer. He has done this on other threads– he just pastes the same stupid list of idiotic crap but doesn’t ever do anything beyond that. He’s not here to argue or debate, he just pastes pro-Hillary spam and then disappears. Sometimes he does it so many times that it kills the thread.

  • From A.P> (My emphasis):

    Former President Bill Clinton was in West Virginia on his wife’s behalf. In Clarksburg, he called her a scrapper and contrasted her appeal among working-class voters with the elitists he said support Obama.

    “The great divide in this country is not by race or even income, it’s by those who think they are better than everyone else and think they should play by a different set of rules,” he said. “In West Virginia and Arkansas, we know that when we see it.”

    Yeah, Billy-J, you and the Bimbess Empress certainly do think you are royalty who should play by a different set of rules.

    God, your hypocrisy is beyond belief!

    What’s really sad is watching him shear the sheep once again.

  • Zoe from Pittsburgh, @107,

    Jack Schitt posts all he knows (which is jack sh..) here every once in a while. It’s always the same (as far as I can tell; have never been able to wade through more than the first few lines of the garbage) two-three messages, one after another, often on several “threads” of the day. He never engages in any discussions, which makes me think he doesn’t read responses to his crap. He’s happy just laying his rotten eggs; he doesn’t brood on them to see them hatch. It’s a waste of time, effort and your health insurance to think he’s a reasoning human being…

  • You ask, what’s to keep gas stations (or oil companies) from just raising prices to offset the amount of the taxes? The same thing that keeps them from raising prices that amount without any shifting of the gas tax to the supplier. Yes, prices keep going up, but any sane person would rather pay 9 cents or 18 cents less than whatever the current price is. Will it make a difference? I used to pay $35 to fill up my tank and now it is $42. People are stealing gas again, the CHP is running public service announcements telling them not to coast downhill since they may lose steering ability, and the poor cannot get to job interviews much less to work. Yes, this matters. I lived through the 70s and saw gas go up and then come down again. I do not agree that prices only go up and that nothing will help, so it is better to do nothing. I believe the presidential candidate should show leadership, not just feel our pain (Obama only acknowledges that times are tough, but his plan is to attack Clinton, not address the problems).

    It is taking 5 years to extend our current rail system a few stops beyond its current position — without building any new tracks. Tell me again how light rail is going to solve the current gas price problems.

    Guam means nothing — it shows the same deadlock as the election as a whole and the delegates are evenly split. You can enjoy this as some sort of victory, but polls are showing that Obama is slipping.

  • You ask, what’s to keep gas stations (or oil companies) from just raising prices to offset the amount of the taxes? The same thing that keeps them from raising prices that amount without any shifting of the gas tax to the supplier. Yes, prices keep going up, but any sane person would rather pay 9 cents or 18 cents less than whatever the current price is.

    I wonder if you realize that this statement is completely incoherent. If so, why make an argument like this? No one here is stupid enough to find it persuasive. Gas companies will charge whatever they think the market can bear. If people will pay 3.50 including tax, they will pay 3.50 excluding tax. Whoever pays the tax directly, people will quite likely be paying the same and more likely more for the same gallon of gas. This is a very simple point which I know you grasp. Why pretend otherwise? Are you deluded enough to think that it actually helps you candidate to make these sorts of incredibly disingenuous arguments.

    As to whether any rational person would want to pay 18 cents less, that of course assumes that said rational person does not understand the idea of false economy. But anyone who has ever shopped for anything in their lives understands that the cheapest price is not always the best deal.

    I do not agree that prices only go up and that nothing will help, so it is better to do nothing.

    Imagine my shock that you would actually distort the entire argument being made here and throw up a ridiculous strawman. The argument is not that prices only go up. The argument is that they change based upon market forces and the Federal gas tax is a very, very small part of that equation. You want to lower prices, you need to lower demand and attempting to lower prices artificially, even by minimal amounts, can only raise demand and eventually raise prices beyond what they would be otherwise.

    But whatever. Even accepting your ridiculous premise, rational people understand that sometimes the best thing to do is nothing when the only available options have very little chance of improving things and a much greater chance of making things worse. But then thats rational people for ya. Their language may be confusing to you.

    It is taking 5 years to extend our current rail system a few stops beyond its current position — without building any new tracks. Tell me again how light rail is going to solve the current gas price problems.

    Not sure who you are addressing but no one needs to explain this to you again because no one made this argument to begin with. What Obama and others have argued is that there are no quick fixes and that if we want to deal with the numerous issues surrounding our dependence on oil, we need to think long term. Indeed the stupid, impetuous grasping for quick fixes is exactly why we are where we are on this issue. It seems that you would have us continue down that path. Clinton herself, I suspect, knows better and understands that this is really just a bit of political flimflammery that thankfully has zero chance of seeing the light of day. You seem to be under the delusion that this sort of quick fix mentality counts as leadership.

  • These are the DSM-IV criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (five or more listed below in order to make the diagnosis): 1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements); 2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love; 3. Believes that he of she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions); 4. Requires excessive admiration; 5. Has a sense of entitlement , i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations; 6. Is interpersonally exploitative, ie., takes advantage; 7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with feelings and needs of others; 8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her; 9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

    While most (if not all) politicians exhibit some or many of these characteristics to one degree or another, one has to meet at least five of these criteria for the diagnosis. I’ll let people decide for themselves about Obama. In my humble but professional opinion (clinical psychologist), my observations confirm to me that he clearly meets five and most likely more of the above criteria. I have never given a diagnostic opinion for anyone without evaluating them personally, so I am reluctant to make this decision. However, as a psychologist may be employed as an expert profiler, this is my firm diagnostic impression. I’m interested in what others may think, keeping in mind their training and experience.

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