Tackling Clinton’s campaign debts

Among the difficulties facing Hillary Clinton’s campaign right now is a bleak financial picture. The campaign has been broke before, but bounced back at key intervals. Now, however, Clinton spent heavily on a lackluster performance in North Carolina and Indiana, the results did not spur a new round of contributions, and her debts are beginning to pile up.

Indeed, when Tim Russert effectively declared the Democratic race over a few days ago, he pointed specifically to the precariousness of the Clinton campaign’s finances: “If, in fact, these reports of Senator Clinton giving her campaign more money are true, then the Clintons have a big decision to make in the morning: Do they go into further debt? … Their ability to raise money after the events of tonight — it’s going to be very difficult.”

The circumstances have led to considerable talk over the last few days of the Obama campaign intervening and “easing” Clinton’s debts. Yesterday, Obama himself broached the subject.

Senator Barack Obama said today that he would not rule out the possibility of helping Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton retire her campaign debt to bring her into the fold and unify Democrats. But he said no discussions have taken place yet.

“Obviously, I’d want to have a broad-ranging discussion with Senator Clinton about how I could make her feel good about the process and have her on the team moving forward,” Mr. Obama said. “But as I said, it’s premature right now. She’s still actively running and we’ve still got business to do right here in Oregon and in other states.”

Mr. Obama stressed that it was premature to talk about lending aid to his rival, declaring: “That’s not a conversation that we’ve had because our working assumption right now is that we’re still in the middle of a race.”

Obama added that these kinds of arrangements are not without precedent: “I think historically after a campaign is done and you want to unify the party — particularly when you’ve had a strong opponent, you want to make sure that you’re putting that opponent in a strong position so that they can work to win an election in November.”

There are a couple of angles to this, including one that’s caused some confusion over the last couple of days.

First, it’s not at all clear if Clinton wants Obama to help with debt relief, and if this would have any influence in her decision to end her campaign. The Clintons have amassed considerable wealth in recent years, and wouldn’t have too much trouble paying off the debt themselves, perhaps using their own money, perhaps turning to a generous donor base. For that matter, as Yglesias noted, “[S]he’s unlikely to face a serious 2012 challenge so her re-election fundraising can just go to pay off presidential campaign debt.”

Second, and even more important, is the notion that people who donated to Obama don’t necessarily want to see their money go to help Clinton with her campaign debts. Josh Marshall noted the other day:

Helping to retire an opponent’s campaign is not unprecedented and can sometimes be justified in the interests of party unity. (Remember, this isn’t just money in the abstract. A lot of it is payment to people who provided services or goods of various sorts to the campaign and need to be paid or paid back.) But using more than $10 million raised in large part by small individual donations to pay back the Clintons who appear to be worth many tens of millions of dollars simply seems wrong.

This isn’t meant to sound ungracious. I don’t begrudge the Clintons their very substantial wealth. And even for really, really rich people, $11 million isn’t nothing. But that is simply too much money raised from small givers to give to people who loaned it with full knowledge of the odds and have more than enough money to really know what to do with.

Recognizing the obvious problems with this — and aware that it could conceivably hurt Obama fundraising in the short term — the Obama campaign was quick to point out yesterday that if they were to help Clinton with her financial difficulties, the support would not come from Obama’s campaign account. As the NYT noted, “Instead, he would have to make a fund-raising appeal on her behalf, asking people to contribute.”

In other words, people who contributed to Obama could feel confident that the money would not go to Clinton.

I’d just add that Time’s Mark Halperin ran the “outline” of a possible deal between the two Democratic camps: “Clinton agrees to leave the race in return for help paying off her campaign debt, a key role at the convention, and a guarantee that she becomes the lead Senate sponsor of the health care reform bill under a President Obama.”

We’ll see how that goes.

I am not crazy about the idea of Obama paying of Clinton debts, but am pragmatic eough to recognize that under the right circumstances it could be a good move.

  • Forget it. Hillary’s campaign mismanaged their funds, and she stubbornly stayed in a race she was obviously losing. I heard yesterday that it’s possible she may loan her campaign even MORE money. Let her own supporters bail her out. As far as I’m concerned, this is a perfect example to show how she would NOT be able to manage the U.S. economy.

  • If they used Obama’s donor’s money to pay her off it would be a huge mistake. Speaking as one of the 1.5 million small donors, I would be extremely pissed off. She wouldn’t be in this situation if she’d had the good sense to to get out when it became apparent that she was done two months ago, but her massive, ego-driven sense of entitlement has got her into this hole.

    On a related note, what is the procedure for appointing a Senate Majority Leader? How do you get rid of an incumbent? I’ve seen Give ‘Em Head Harry pimping his book a couple of times in the last few days, and he doesn’t seem like he would say boo to a goose, which is unhelpful. Clinton should be in that job. She’s a “fighter”, after all.

  • Obama’s handling of this is actually impressively savvy. It was a nice trial balloon at this stage to see if Clinton is ready to take a lifeline yet, and he delivered it in such a way that there is little downside or angle for Clinton to get indignant. He made clear that she had not suggested it and they had not talked, he respected the fact that she was still campaigning and in the race. Yet the bigger message to the rest of the world was “look, I’ve won this thing.” It allowed him to look magnanimous, and to start the process of bridging the chasm that people like impeachcheneythenbush have created that imperils the ability of any D to beat McCain in November.

    I actually think this was very well played, and I suspect Obama and his team have been working on various end-game strategies like this one for several weeks now.

  • How about Clinton contributes massively to the Obama campaign for all the extra campaign expenditures he had to make because of her intransigence? Payback. Or as Van Gogh would say, terugbetaling.

  • “Instead, he would have to make a fund-raising appeal on her behalf, asking people to contribute.”

    Like Charlie Brown coming to door on Halloween:
    Is it possible to toss a stone into her bag?
    Or, in a Hillary’s case, a shitbrick?

  • What I’d mind least is a “send me (some of) the bills” strategy. People & companies who provided goods & services to the Clinton campaign and are awaiting payment that will never come from her or her people – I can feel all right with Obama picking up those tabs. NO money goes to pay off her own loans, NO money goes to Penn, no money goes to any of her rich friends who are in her circle who can do without that paycheck. Just vendors & indie contractors who will get screwed by Clinton’s mismanagement of her own troubled economy. I’m OK with that level of debt relief.

  • Slightly OT: Carl Bernstein just said that Hillery actively wants to be the VP candidate. According to “people who know her best”.

  • There are pretty strict campaign financing laws governing this. Obama can’t just make a big transfer of funds because that would be an illegal campaign contribution.

    He can, however, help fundraise for her. I’m sure there are other options, but I don’t know enough about this scenario to know what they are.

  • Obama is doing everything right at this point. It’s good to see him with the confidence he deserves after those grueling weeks of unfair attacks. I just spent the morning writing letters to the editors of all the West Virginia newspapers I could find online, asking for people to look at Obama honestly. I was surprised at the amount of support he has in the letters to the editors. I didn’t expect to find any.

  • …actively wants to be the VP candidate…

    I don’t doubt it. Her ambition knows no reins.
    Will she start “actively” telling everyone that she can bring the “white” vote?

    Sorry.

    This woman and her family are obnoxious poison.
    I have to agree with Mark Pencil’s observation in regards to Barack’s card play.
    It is shrewd and brilliant.
    However I will reframe it like this:

    A winner you invite in and hope to have hang around…
    A loser… you give ’em a dollar and show ’em the door.

  • First, every Obama contributor needs to know that NONE of their contributions can be used to “pay off Hillary’s debt”. By law, the Obama campaign is limited to $2,300 just like every other individual contributor to her campaign. So Obama’s supporters needn’t worry that their money will go into Hillary’s debt repayment.

    What’s interesting is that the Clinton loans to Hillary’s campaign must be paid off BEFORE she withdraws through her own fundraising efforts or she forfeits almost all of those millions. Once she withdraws, the limit her campaign committee can reimburse her for the Clintons’ loans to her campaign is $250,000. She cannot make up the difference later for those self-loans, though she can continue to fundraise after she withdraws to pay off her debts to others.

    The most Obama can do for her is to join with her in fundraisers and split the funds 50-50. That isn’t likely to bring in the millions she needs to pay off her vendors and staff very quickly. So it appears to me that whenever Hillary withdraws, unless she becomes a miracle fundraiser, she’ll be out those $11.6M in self-loans and her other bills will be paid as she brings in the money, with fewer and fewer people motivated to donate.

    And there’s another consideration. Obama’s going to be very busy from here on out campaigning against John McCain, with his own fundraisers and training at least a million volunteers, the election itself, the inauguration, and then governing America. When’s he going to have time to help Hillary?

    And finally, there’s no indication that Hillary WANTS to tone down her ugly campaigning against him, and that hardly seems like a move you’d make if you want your opponent to help you or if you intend to heal party wounds.

    So maybe in the end, it’s a cool offer on Obama’s part to do what he can, which isn’t much as far as I can see.

    It will be interesting to see if he has a slot to offer her somewhere in his administration. I truly hope not, because I think her kind of politics is what he wants to leave behind. That’s been the central theme of his campaign.

  • Mark Pencil: “…start the process of bridging the chasm that people like impeachcheneythenbush have created that imperils the ability of any D to beat McCain in November.”

    The chasm has been created by the Clinton campaign. There are supporters of both Obama and Hillary who have proclaimed that they would either vote for McCain or not vote at all if their choice didn’t win the primary. I am NOT one of those. I’ve lost enormous respect for both Bill and Hillary over the course of the campaign. However, despite my personal dislike of their tactics, there is a clear difference between her and McCain. If, by some chance, she actually became the nominee, I would vote for her. I would NEVER vote for a Republican, and I would never allow a Republican administration to take over in Jan. of 2009 because my favorite didn’t win the nomination.

  • Yep, Mark Pencil has it right. Obama played this as well as he could, but I too would be pissed if my donations went to the very people I was hoping to edge out of the process.

  • Thanks, aristedes. Always appreciate your input on this topic. Other topics, too.

  • The idea of having a link on the Obama site via which people could contribute to retiring the Clinton campaign debt sounds reasonable enough, but I wince at the thought of Hillary Clinton becoming the lead sponsor in the Senate of a healthcare reform bill. Hello? Was anyone paying attention the last time she tackled healthcare in Congress? Is the problem better now, or worse, in part due to the divisions she caused by her high-handed approach to the issue? I would suggest that the results made the situation worse, rather than better. Health care reform is too important to let the issue be hijacked by any one individual’s ambition or quest for a legacy. What is needed is a low-profile collaborative effort, not a showboating and divisive battle royal. Obama’s approach is far more likely to achieve results, so sorry, no deal on that point.

  • but TR, if this is part of how you edge her out of the process than it is money just as well spent as an anti-Clinton TV ad buy or direct mail piece. Indeed at this stage, it is better: you get the same result (an end to the Dem contest) while beginning to narrow the rift as opposed to spending money to continue the rift.

    impeach, ROTF, etc are really the object of my point. having a “who started it” fest may be fun and may be what blogs live for, but it is not in Obama’s best interest. he did not blow Clinton out; this is the closest nomination campaign in the modern era. indeed, she likely still has an edge among actual votes by long-term D’s, as he has fared better in “open” primaries with independents than she has. Which is to say that of that group of people who have been proven to show up in Novembers and vote for folks with a D after their name fully half prefer Clinton. I hate to break it to anyone naive enough to think otherwise, but Obama cannot beat McCain without most of those folks coming around to Obama’s side.

    at this point it is phenomenally unhelpful for Obama supporters to continue to antagonize Clinton supporters. finding it in ones maturity to be history’s most gracious winners is the best, and perhaps the only, way to ensure at this point that McCain is not elected President. the first task of the nominee is healing and unity. the sooner his supporters get the memo the better off Obama (and the party, country, and world) will be.

    not to sound like Scalia, but if you are among those (unlike, say, Mary) who believe this nomination contest is over, the best way to show it is to, um, “get over it.”

  • Why is it only reported AFTER a primary vote that Clinton has again loaned her campaign money? This is the second time. God forbid she might fess up before a vote and tell potential voters she has been keeping her campaign afloat on her own dime. Just the same old sneakiness from the Clintons.

  • Mr. Counting His Chickens is going to look extremely foolish when Senator Clinton wins this nomination, after he grossly insulted Senator Clinton by even suggesting that he would consider paying part of the campaign debts of his better. Textbook male passive-aggression, patronizing the woman to belittle her, pretending that she’s not capable of settling her own obligations. And I can’t forgive him for not offering to pay all $25 million. Cheapskate black guy.

  • The Time’s negotiation outline has a very interesting component. Hillary withdraws, receives donations to cover the campaign’s debts to the vendors, (except Mark Penn’s outfit – if anything, she should sue his hiney off for such bad advice) and then giver her the lead to implement HIS Health Care Agenda. His program stands a better chance of passing, and if successful in being implement, she goes down in history as the one who brought health care to Americans. There are a lot of women who have stood out in history not for offices held, but for actions they have taken. Hillary has the option to now decide how history views her contribution to the American fabric: Famous, or infamous.

  • Any campaign that has paid off the other candidate in the past must not have… 1)Dealt with as large a figure as this is. 2) Another candidate in the same party that campaigned so negatively. 3) Had opposition like the Clintons who are loaded with plenty of potential to restock their coffers. Don’t waste a moment worrying about Chelsea’s trust fund. Worrying about Britney Spears or Paris Hilton makes more sense than that. 4) Over one and a half million small amount donors who work hard for what they have and didn’t offer it to a fatally flawed candidate whose personal wealth tops seventy million dollars.

    I don’t make a lot of dough, but I’ve found ways to contribute to a campaign I believe in. Like many others, this was my first foray into political donations. The thought of the Clintons getting a nickel of it makes me physically ill.

  • maria

    TY!

    Mark Pencil

    she likely still has an edge among actual votes by long-term D’s

    I guess that’s something we don’t really know. But it’s predicted that more than 100,000 million people will vote in the GE, while 33,000 will have participated in the primaries. So (if these numbers are roughly correct), 2/3 of those who vote in the GE weren’t interested enough to vote for a Democratic or Republican candidate in the primaries. That means that likely Democratic voters didn’t care if it was Hillary or Obama.

    And FWIW, Obama is still putting massive efforts into new voter registrations, increasing the numbers of Democratic voters, while McCain’s camp sort of bumbles along with Joe Lieberman stuck to him recalling Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy. I think the Democratic voters will hugely outnumber the Republican voters for many reasons.

    If Obama conducts an effective campaign against McCain, and there’s no reason he won’t, since McCain is really appearing to be an ignorant dufus, you have to take into account some 77 million voters who didn’t vote in the primaries. The primary voters are only a subset of a much larger number of voters.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that the percentage of avid supporters of either Hillary or Obama in the primary race doesn’t necessarily predict an equivalent break in those who lean Democratic among the remaining 77M voters, with Hillary supporters peeling off to McCain. Most voters will vote for the candidate who seems to best represent their self-interests, and it has little to do with the priimary fight between Clinton and Obama. I think the divide then will be Republican/Democrat.

  • We’re Democrats, and Democrats are the party who, for the most part, try and get people to vote FOR our candidates. It is Republicans who always try and get you to vote AGAINST someone — this is the basis of my complaints about the WBE.

    I’m supporting Obama because I think he will make a great President, not just to keep McCain out. This means I trust his judgment. (Not to say I surrender to him like a dittohead — and he’s said just that, that he needs people to correct him sometimes.)

    If I trust him to make the big decisions, I trust him on this. If he thinks that helping Hillary will help him get elected, then if my money gets used for this, it’s his call — the same way as if he chooses to use the money for an ad, even if I would write a different one.

  • maybe i’m unethical, but i have no problem paying clinton off right now just to get her to go away. my only problem is that my donation would be paying mark penn too. that is just too much

  • why are we bothered by her debt. let her pay it herself. obama can pay for the vendors etc.
    she will write a book and bill will write a book as how the non-white, educated, sane americans betrayed them and sell the books to millions of idiots and make lot of money. let them marinate in their own misrey.

  • I want to start a campaign to ask IFP to put off her retirement until HC has clearly and unequivocally resigned from the race. I have come to depend on her snark almost as much as I depend on BillFromPortlandMaine 5 times a week!

    Oh – and while I agree that it’s a smart move to play the magnanimous winner, I hope that Obama doesn’t actually have to stoop to raising funds for such an unprincipled opponent. I do see a certain beauty in paying off her debts to small vendors though…

  • As Americans we most often speak loudest with our dollars and in that regard the vote is in, Hillary’s message, tactics, and attempts to buy the election have thus far failed to provide her the kind of support she needs to continue.

    In this election Hillary Clinton does not deserve the title of underdog but bad dog. The best thing that Democrats can do for America is to swat her on the nose by denying her fund raising efforts.

    Full article @ http://www.futureosophy.com/2008/05/did-hillary-try-and-buying-election.html

  • I have no objection to paying off Penn’s firm, that will be the most effective money the Obama campaign has spent all year. Penn was a godsend to Obama, I don’t think he could have won without him.

  • Everyone’s talking about how they don’t want their money going to Mark Penn, but really, I’d be more irate if it went to that clown Howard Wolfson who’s been running his trap for the last so many months.

  • Let Hillary pay her own mismanaged campaign debts. That’s what the rest of the world has to do – live within their means, pay their debts. Why should others pay for her relentless quest for power?

  • I really do not want see my pennies donated to Obama going to any where other than the purpose they mentioned in internet which is to fund Obama’s election…

  • I love these Democratic primaries and would vote for either Clinton or Obama in November, although Obama is my first choice. I would be thrilled with an Obama/Chris Gregoire ticket and Clinton as the Senate Majority Leader.

    Limbaugh’s Republicans will be in deep shock when all Democrats (old, women, whites, blacks, educated, uneducated, latte drinking, beer drinking, Prius driving, whateveeeeer) will come together and sweep in November. We are like two packs of dogs fighting for a bone right now. Let McWolf get in the cage and you will be amazed at what happens.

  • I will grant that paying at least a portion of his opponent’s debtload is the magnanimous thing to do, but it should be done in a carrot-and-stick manner. Let any and all payments be dependent upon her actions—and the actions of her staff and surrogates—between now and the November election. Handing her a bunch of cash so she can go on another spending spree in Foxylvania of ScaifeLand just doesn’t seem to be the best use for monies contributed by so many good Americans who might have been able to use that money elsewhere….

  • I have donated and will continue to donate money to the Obama campaign. I am also not crazy about the idea of Obama helping Hillary Clinton with her campaign debt. I think it’s irresponsible to for her to continue spending when she is currently in the red. (Question: just how did people conclude she would be good for the economy when she couldn’t properly oversee her own campaign budget?) However, I have no problem if funds are provided to pay vendors in PA, OH, IN, etc for rally setups and similar expenses. But not one red cent should reimburse Hillary for her personal loans! She should absorb that loss. The financial assistance would be worth it for her to go away! No VP spot – just go!!!

  • Hillary’s STILL attacking Obama… Can’t see how that would encourage him to bail her out.

    As someone else has said , maybe even here on CB in another thread (and it’s the funniest analogy I’ve seen to date), Hillary Clinton reminds us of those Japanese soldiers in WW II who hid on Guam and in the Philippines for 20 years, and continued fighting people because they thought the war was still on.

    http://www.wanpela.com/holdouts/profiles/yokoi/obituary.html

  • I have mixed feelings about this issue but of all the candidates Barack is the only one that I could just trust to make an intelligent decision about helping out with an opponent’s campaign debts and any other issue for that matter. That’s why I like Barack. I feel that I can trust him to make intelligent and moral decisions.

    Great idea about the vendors by the way.

  • So the ultra rich Hillary is stiffing all the little people that provided work, goods and services to her campaign?

    That’s just so

    Republican…

  • I was just watching Clinton on CNN speaking at a private fundraiser in NY taking “questions” read by Chelsea. Granted CNN cut away and only showed about 6 minutes of it, but in that time there were several questions on which she directed all of her fire at Bush and Republicans and hardly mentioned Obama. Even on a gas price question, she of course had to mention Obama but did not take a real swing, noted the differences, and went after McCain.

    Maybe she is finally adopting the Huckabbe strategy. Lets hope the snippet I saw was representative of the entire event, not an anomoly.

  • Some are suggesting that Clinton should replace Reid as the Senate Majority Leader. I think that’s a horrible idea. We need somebody in that position that has at least a modicum of honesty, integrity and is willing to put our best interests over her own.

  • clee100 @38,

    At the risk of coming across as an Obama-nut, I’ve supported Obama since the beginning because I trust his judgment and good nature. That’s not to say that he doesn’t make mistakes, and that I agree with every position and every statement. However, on balance, he’s given me every reason to maintain such trust.

    So, to your comment, I say “hear hear”.

  • I am one of Obama’s contributors who would be totally against using my small donation to help this rich, divisive, self centered woman who does not recognize that it is OVER !!!—she did not have money for small vendors –but still seems to have money for anti Obama ads —it somehow feels really wrong to do this sort of bail out —–from the way she ran her campaign –thank god we are not entrusting America’s future and economy to Hillary —

  • PeteCO (#3), saying “boo to a goose” is the sign of a “fighter”? In my book, that is the sign of a bully, which is what the Clinton’s are.

    Regarding Obama helping Cinton with the campaign debt, I don’t want my hard earned money that I donated to Obama campaign given away to brain-dead Hillary “sniper-fire” Clinton’s campaign.

  • I am one of those who have supported Senator Obama on numerous occasions and while i would continue to support him whatever he did about Hillary’s campaign debt it is my belief he should do nothing. The Clinton’s have huge wealth and as a person of limited means I think it is preposterous that I would be subsidizing them. I think Bill let down the people who supported him and believe Hillary stands for nothing but confused self aggrandizement. political/social satire http://www.saintpeterii.com

  • Thank you, Aristedes, for reconfirming that my two cents will not be used to bail out Sen. R-C’s campaign.

    However, I believe I read somewhere that a candidate can donate an unlimited amount of funds to her own campaign as long as she doesn’t take the Federal/public Funds — am I getting this right?

    On the surface, it appears Hillary was willing to put up the money, herself, for something she believes strongly in. It does bother me that she’s calling it a “loan” if she is able to use her own money. In other words, she will be paying herself back. Conversely, we “donated” our money in support of a democratic candidate’s campaign. We don’t get it back.

    And if she can’t recoup her loss, she still has $100 million more. Even I though believe that somehow she’s able to use some sort of tax write-off.

    With my uninformed opinion written, I’m in total agreement with impeachcheneythenbush’s #2 remark. In addition to Hillary’s innumerous blunders, irresponsible actions, and character flaws, fiscal mismanagement is at the top of her faults. She couldn’t manage her own campaign! Where has all her “experience” gotten her in this regard?

  • I left out some…

    This whole deal is too similar to a corporate bailout.

    Feds give a corporation million$$. Corporation then has a massive layoff. Sends work to other countries, then relocates AFTER polluting our environment.

  • As one of Obama’s many small donors, I also don’t want my hard-earned money going to Clinton’s campaign debt. I’m sure her hubby can pay off that debt in no time by making speeches here and there worldwide.

    Despite the odds, Hillary chose to lend her poorly run campaign $11.4 million due to the arrogance and shortsightedness of her and her advisers not seeing past “Super Tuesday” on Feb. 5.

    Would she also have run this country in such a manner? In contrast, Obama has run an efficient and savvy campaign, despite several setbacks. He never lost his cool nor sacrificed his principles (such as the “gas tax holiday”) for political gain.

    And as many readers noted, we Obama supporters want our donations going to him, not to his millionaire opponent who refuses to face reality and keeps mounting up her debts.

    In the meantime, Clinton continues to splice and dice the Democratic party and its constituents with her devisive comments.

    I truly believe the American people see through this, judging from last Tuesday’s primaries in Indiana and North Carolina. Hopefully, this will carry over into November’s general election.

    I believe it will.

  • Personally I think we should get the hard-working, non-college-educated, won’t-vote-for-a-black-guy white Americans to pay off Clinton’s debt. I think they call it put up or shut up.

    Of course, I’m not sure how many of these voters actually exist, because Hillary forgot about an additional qualification: Democrats who would rather vote for Hillary.

    Here is the weirdest statistic: Hillary wins the majority of Democratic voters, yet still fall behind Obama. One has to assume that Republicans and Independent who voted for Obama, could just as easily have voted for McCain. In the fall it seems that Obama would get his Democratic supporters, plus at least some of Hillary’s.

    The real demographic in the Fall will be Democrat, Republican or Independent.

    When you win a majority of your own party’s voters and still lose in the primary, that should tell you something about what will happen in the General.

  • Clinton has not asked Obama to pay her campaign debt. You are getting all upset about nothing. This suggestions (coming from Obama) smacks of paternalism — she is capable of handling her own campaign without Obama’s help, including debt. I am still contributing to her campaign and I’m sure others are too.

    Part of the problem is the extreme costs associated with campaigning in this longer than usual and especially media-intensive campaign. Unprecedented amounts are being spent by both candidates to saturate primary states in a 50-state campaign. That strikes me as a huge waste of money by both sides, but neither side can stop doing it unless the other does too. Think of what the money could do if it were directed instead toward Myanmar relief, for example, or schools or infrastructure.

    Please note that Yglesias says that Clinton can use her re-election campaign funds to retire her debt. I stated the same thing here and was attacked for it. Unless you want to stomp all over Yglesias, you owe me an apology.

  • TJ

    I don’t think there’s any problem with Hillary’s loans to herself under campaign law.

    I got most of my information from this Slate report:

    Maybe someone can do some research about whether the Clintons can write off those millions if they can’t raise the funds to pay themselves back by the time she drops out. I’d sure like to know myself!

    I did find this information published by the Ohio society of CPAs, though I don’t know if the principle extends to loans one makes to one’s campaigns. I have read elsewhere that they are not tax deductible if unrecovered through fundraising.:

    Are my campaign expenses deductible for tax purposes?

    A candidate’s campaign expenses out of his or her own resources are not deductible as ordinary business expenses for federal income tax purposes.

    The Internal Revenue Code defines a public office as a trade or business. However, it also specifically denies all deductions for expenditures in any political campaign for a candidate for public office. Therefore, regardless of the result of the election, a candidate may not deduct expenses for attending political conventions, campaign travel expenses, campaign advertising, filing fees, legal fees, etc. Neither may campaign expenses be amortized (like a capital expenditure) over the term in office.

    Even if you view political office as a stepping-stone to some other business or profession, this is not enough to change the IRS’ view on this issue. Thus, if you are a lawyer, political campaign expenses are not deductible if you are seeking election as a legislator in the hope that the exposure will build your professional practice. Even if your professional reputation was damaged during a political campaign, the cost of any defamation litigation for allegations published during the campaign is not deductible.

    http://www.ohioscpa.com/Content/39453.aspx

  • Tomj — because the Republican nomination was clinched so soon (and no serious candidates ran besides McCain), the Republican and Independent voters had no contest in their own primary. That gave them the freedom to crossover and mess with the Democratic party process. They will go back and vote for McCain in the general election. Because Obama did best in these open contests, there is some doubt about whether he will be able to hold sufficient voters in the general election, especially if he has alienated the Democratic base. There is a reason why he is desperately trying to scrounge up “new” voters through registration drives. He seems genuinely worried that the lost Clinton votes won’t come back to him and he is trying to reassure superdelegates that he can find enough people to make up for those driven away from him. Mark Pencil is right — you guys need to start making nice with Clinton supporters if Obama is going to have any chance at all in the Fall. I personally don’t believe he can win, which is exactly the concern of Clinton herself, a substantial number of superdelegates, and many longtime Democrats (see some of the messages left at Digby’s blog, for example, predicting doom in the Fall if Obama is the nominee). You don’t want to face this possibility, but it is probably the main reason why Clinton has any chance of being nominated at the convention — experienced politicians recognize that Obama cannot put together a coalition that will give him a victory.

  • The idea that the money I gave the Obama campaign might be used to pay off the Clintons’ debt is so egregious that I haven’t been able to sleep for the last two nights! I know Senator Obama said (or perhaps more accurately, was advised to say) something to the effect that this is how things have been done “historically”. What the people advising him should NOT forget is that people like myself did not back Senator Obama because we thought he would do things a certain way because that’s how they had been done “historically”. This campaign has been about change and it should remain so. If not, I want my money back. I would give tenfold to McCain before I part with one cent towards the Clintons.

  • Actually, I’m wondering if it’s even legal to take money from one candidate’s campaign contributions and give it to another candidate. besides, wouldn’t the bulk of any payoff from Mr. Obama just wind up going back into her personal bank account? He could send out a plea for funds to retire her debtload—but I’m not too sure if he can actually give money donated specifically to him—and give it to her.

    Any campaign finance law aficionados around? This could be the veritable “weekend sticky.”

    By the way—BBC and Reuters are now both reporting that Mr. Obama has picked up several more supers today—2 of which were his opponent’s earlier in the day. Sounds like someone’s doing the “superdelegate moonwalk” out there….

  • By the way—BBC and Reuters are now both reporting that Mr. Obama has picked up several more supers today

    Today’s adventures in superdelegation:

    Obama net 5
    Clinton net 0

    5-10-08 – – Added new Utah addon Kristi Cumming(UT)# for Obama
    – Added DNC Carol Burke (VI) for Obama
    – Switched DNC Kevin Rodriguez (VI) from Clinton to Obama.
    – Added Ohio add-on Dave Regan (OH)# for Obama
    – Added Massachusetts add-on Arthur Powell (MA)# for Clinton
    – Added Rep. Harry Mitchell (AZ) for Obama

    Will Clinton’s desperate call to her committed supers, begging them to stop walking out on her, work?

    Um. No.

  • BTW, that makes the super count for the last three days Obama 16, Clinton 1. Damn, that’s gotta smart.

  • Retire the debt, yes. VP absolutely not. You don’t bring the traitor onto the team. No one could trust either of those scum and whatever cabal they’d organize over at the National Observatory. You cannot trust Hill and Billary any further than you can see them with your eyes closed at midnight.

  • Retire the debt, yes. VP absolutely not.

    Hey, what reasonable, moderate sounding person handlejacked Tom Cleaver? And what have you done with the real TC?

  • Let’s be crystal clear about a couple of things:

    1. The Clintons helped Barack Obama retire his debt when he was elected to the U.S. Senate – and they contributed to his campaign to help him get elected.

    2. While it is true that Hillary had the support of large donors early on in her campaign, in the past two-plus months the campaign has been fueled by small donors contributing less than $200. So to act as if Obama’s donors are the ONLY ones contributing small sums to a campaign is a disservice to the hundreds of thousands of individual contributors to Clinton’s campaign. In more blunt terms: get off your “they’re rich” high-horse.

    3. I doubt that Clinton will accept this offer. She has already issued a statement indicating as much AND acknowledging that such financing maneuvers as those proposed by Obama are illegal on several levels.

    4. If she accepts an offer it will be part of a package that will no doubt include the counting of voters in Florida and Michigan and the seating of delegates. Whether Obama’s followers like this or not, it is called negotiation. Obama cannot afford to ‘dis Florida and Michigan (if GE numbers and electoral votes are an indication) because he cannot win – under any scenario – without Florida and/or Michigan. Right now Clinton wins in Florida against McCain; Obama tanks. And the way GE numbers are shaping up, Obama has an incredible uphill fight against McCain, no matter how much those of us who are political junkies/activists know his true colors. Read the Thursday, May 8 Kohut article in NYT; read Paul Krugman’s OP-ED.

    5. She will not accept this unless a Clinton supporter is put on the ticket as VP. This is just pragmatic realism. Obama cannot win without the swath of voters in the middle (blue-collar working class voters – AND women (who comprise 60% of the Democratic Party). Women alone have overwhelmingly supported Clinton. And from what I read and hear, Kathleen Sebelius or Claire McCaskill on the ticket don’t hold much sway with women who support Clinton.

    Whether Obama is able to accept these pragmatic realities is another issue. He appears poised to yet again ‘dis voters in WV and KY by announcing “victory” on May 20 – a bad move, imo, precisely because it comes across as arrogant: the very thing that voters aged 45+ find annoying about him.

  • Clinton alone is responsible for the mess she’s made. Let her clean it up. Force her to finally come to terms with the fact that she’s entitled to nothing just because of her name. Democrats have been enabling both Clintons for far too long and would better to be rid of them once and for all.

  • […] because the Republican nomination was clinched so soon (and no serious candidates ran besides McCain), the Republican and Independent voters had no contest in their own primary. That gave them the freedom to crossover and mess with the Democratic party process. — Mary,@52

    Funny… Basically, this has been my own argument (except for the contention that McCain was the only serious candidate; most of them were equally “serious”. Or were equally clownish. Take your pick), for weeks.

    BUT. And it’s a serious “but”… Mary seems to have telescoped the timing and twisted the facts a tad, to suit her purpose.

    Yes, after McCain’t hit the magic number and became the heir presumptive, Repubs were free to meddle in our primaries to their hearts’ content and did (Independents are another story, since they had no horse in that race). As such, they can — and should be — discounted as the predictor of things to come; in November, those crossovers will revert to voting in lockstep with GOP.

    However. Almost all of the post-McCain’t crossovers *were not for Obama*; they were for Hillary, at Limbaugh’s urging.

    The majority of Obama crossovers happened *before* McCaint’s anointment, when the full slate of goopers was still in the running. Those voters still had the chance of voting for their true preference, in hopes of getting their dreamboat nominated. That they didn’t vote for anyone on that slate, that they crossed over the party lines and voted for Obama, means they voted *in good faith*, not just to eff us up. *Some* of them may switch yet again — especially if we don’t manage to counteract the mistaken but prevalent idea of McCaint’s as a moderate and maverick — and drop back into the Repub column.

    But, unlike in the case of Hillary’s crossovers (post McCain’t) it’s not a given that Obama’s crossovers will revert in November. I think most of them will stick with Obama, because he *was* their true choice.

  • mabelle55, #59, said:
    Let’s be crystal clear about a couple of things:
    1. The Clintons helped Barack Obama retire his debt when he was elected to the U.S. Senate […]
    3. […] She has already issued a statement […] acknowledging that such financing maneuvers as those proposed by Obama are illegal on several levels.

    Let’s be crystal clear here; this in no way suggests that Senator Clinton has done anything illegal — much less illegal on several levels — when she did exactly the same thing for Obama, that he proposes to do for her now. When she does it, it shows her natural womanly warmth and her mothering instincts. When he does it, it proves that he’s both: patronizing like all males, *and* typical of all the welfare-collecting, elitist, egghead Afro-Americans.

    4. […] read Paul Krugman’s OP-ED.

    Yes, but do not, repeat: DO NOT, read the editorial published on the same day (Friday, May 9), or Bob Herbert’s op-ed published on Saturday, May 10th. The editorial board of NYT is, quite obviously, a bunch of traitors rivaling Benedict Arnold and Judas rolled into one. And Herbert is an Afro-American; you cannot expect him to be objective on the subject (unlike Krugman).

    5. She will not accept this unless […]

    Quite so. She has learned — at the same time she learned duck hunting and sniper fire ducking — that looking a gift horse in the mouth is exactly the right thing to do, if you want to get a really good horse, while being in no position to dictate terms. The giver, caught unawares, is likely to give you the whole stable, before he ever gathers his wits.

    AU H2O Girl ’08!

  • So, according to mabelle55, Clinton will only permit Obama to help her pay off her campaign debts if Obama also accepts Clinton’s terms with respect to the MI/FL delegations and names one of her supporters as his running mate.

    Yep. That sounds like the kind of winning strategy we’ve come to expect from the Clinton campaign.

    And, yes, it will be a terrible “dis” to WV and KY voters if Obama declares victory on May 20…after the WV and KY primaries have ended.

  • pay her debt off for trashing him? i donated $100.00 last week . I make $100.00 a week ,and ive been with the same school district 22 years ..I live in my fathewrs garage after a nasty divorce of 36 years ..Id rather live in the garage ,,and im going to help pay a millionaries debt off? I pray not I gave for OBAMAS campaign and his only

  • Mary,

    In 1980, a lot of Dems and Indies crossed over to support Reagan, because they got burned pretty bad by the economy under Carter. These were the “Reagan Democrats” that everyone’s been talking about. They were not voting for a “Republican,” and they were not voting against a “Democrat”—they were voting for a wholesale change in course. Maybe you’re not old enough to remember it clearly, so I’ll give you the numbers: Double-digit unemployment and an interest rate of around 21%.

    Today, a lot of GOPers and Indies are crossing over and voting Dem; not specifically for a Democrat,” and not specifically against McCain—they are once again voting for that wholesale change of course. Things aren’t looking quite so bad this time around—yet—but that’s because of the multiple shell-games and back-door bailouts the Bush administration has employed. They used the Fed bailouts of the banks as the “back door” for bailing out Wall Street. Take the bailouts away, and poof—no more Bear Stearns, no more Lehman, and probably no more CitiGroup. Those three failures alone would have triggered a massive run on all banks, and the DOW would have absolutely tanked.

    But the bailouts only helped the big guys; the small investors lost almost everything—or maybe everything, period. I know retirees who voted for your candidate; who lost their 401-Ks and now have to sell their homes on a deflated market. Are they going to vote for McCain if your candidate doesn’t get the nomination?

    I don’t think so. Strike One.

    Then there’s the shell games with the jobs numbers, the biggest of which is the Bush administration counting the creation of “temporary” and “part time” jobs. Temps and part-timers don’t qualify for unemployment compensation in most cases, and the only way we count “lost jobs” is by unemployment-benefits applications. Since his inauguration, Bush has created millions of jobs that are “still on the books”—but only because the method of taking them off the books never sees them physically come off the books.

    But those jobs are still gone. I know a lot of “lunch bucket Democrats” and even more than a few “lunch bucket Republicans” here in Ohio who lost their jobs—some, more than once—and voted for your candidate. Again—are they going to vote for McCain if your candidate doesn’t get her “coronation” in Denver?

    If you are answering “yes,” then guess what? You’re wrong again. Strike Two.

    Then there’s the biggest shell game of all time: the Subprime Housing disaster. Financial companies that sprung up almost overnight—and the support network that helped them to come into existence—initiated home ownership programs for millions of American families who would otherwise have been frozen out of the American dream. At first, it was all above-board, but there were only so many families who could qualify for the program under its original merits—the merits that were in place during pre-Bush43 administrations (Reagan, Bush41, and WJC). So they tweaked the restrictions and converted over to a classic pyramid scheme model, using the inflated interest rates of the “sound” mortgages to underwrite the “not-so-sound” second wave of mortgages. They kept this up, and when things began to go sour, they “repackaged” everything into investment portfolios and sold the mortgages, en masse. No one could get their contractually-guaranteed re-writes to lower-interest, fixed-rate notes, and while interest rates were slowly stabilizing, Subprime rates were ratcheting upwards—and people started sliding into default.

    Millions of people went into default, lost their homes, and had to move into bankruptcy—but someone had already foreseen this eventuality, and they pushed through a rewritten bankruptcy code before it could happen.

    I know folks who lost it all—and I know even more folks who are in the process of losing it all. a lot of them voted for your candidate, and a lot of them voted for mine. They’re Republicans, Indies, and Dems. Will they vote for McCain, just because some of your candidate’s supporters threaten to vote for 4 more years of the very political model that took everything away from them?

    Most certainly not—and that’s Strike Three, Mary.

    You lose.

    And here’s just a sample of how your loss is going to affect you, Mary. Since you’re “supposedly” a teacher, take it upon yourself to revisit the history lesson concerning one Benedict Arnold. Once you’ve done that—and it include studying what happened to him after he fled to England—try to imagine what people will think of you, once the dust settles in November, and everyone begins to remember that you chose to sit it all out.

    Because a vote not cast in November for Obama will be exactly the same as a half-vote cast for McCain in November—and all those people I’ve just mentioned above will not look kindly upon people like you.

    But you go right ahead, and keep making your nasty little comments. Take your little toy and go home when Obama clinched the nomination. Sit out the election, as you and so many others have threatened to do—but if McCain becomes the next president, it won’t be Obama’s fault, Mary.

    It’ll be yours.

    The people who lost their pensions will know it; the people who lost their jobs will know it; the families out in the street or living in their cars will know it. The kids getting screwed over by the GOP sequel to NCLB will know it, too—and it is in their names, Mary—THEIR NAMES—that I and others like me will personally haunt you for all eternity.

    Remember that lesson about Benedict Arnold—and how he lived out his life after fleeing to England? Now you know why I assigned the lesson—don’t you?

  • beep52, you’re normally a reasonable commenter, so I was surprised at this:

    Democrats have been enabling both Clintons for far too long and would better to be rid of them once and for all.

    Even if you and other Obama supporters feel that way, you can’t be “rid of” Clinton’s supporters and still beat McCain. Obama will need to win Clinton supporters over to be a active, to donate, to be motivated to show up in November — and continuing on dissing the Clintons or trying to “be rid of them” will actually be counter-productive come November.

    I’m somewhat amazed on this thread at how difficult a concept that seems to be.
    You guys (and gals) have won. How hard can it be to not be, um, bitter?
    Do all of the Obama supporters honestly believe – given how close the last several elections have been and how close the GE polling is right now – that Obama can beat McCain if a substantial number of Clinton supporters sit out November?

  • You guys (and gals) have won. How hard can it be to not be, um, bitter?

    Well, I’m not bitter. The thing’s over and Obama’s won and Clinton’s lost. Time to move on and focus on the general. The Clintons ran a despicable campaign, and if they’d managed to win because of it, bitterness would be highly appropriate. But they lost, and no need to get all Conan the Barbarian about it.

    As Steve at 65 suggests, save your righteous (and it will be righteous) scorn for the self-centered, emotionally adolescent fools who pretend to care about Democratic policies and principles but won’t vote for the Dem in November.

    Look, I understand and totally relate to the feelings of all the hard-working white, black and everything else Americans who scraped up some bucks for Obama and don’t want to see those dollars going to Clinton after the campaign she’s run. But as has been pointed out many times in this thread and everywhere else, that’s not how campaign financing works–the donations he received can’t go to her. He may help her with fundraising; he may not.

    It’s just politics. It’s party cohesion. It’s the winner being gracious and allowing the loser to save face, which may not feed some people’s notions of justice but is nonetheless the way this stuff works. And no, Clinton will not dictate the terms of Obama’s victory. It’s happening with or without her consent, so don’t worry about posters like mabelle at 59 trying to brazen it out.

    And vabelle’49 at 62 is hilarious. Better than IFP.

  • Steve, we agree about the problem but not the solution. You seem to think that once someone recognizes the economic difficulties, the choice for Obama will be obvious. Historically, that is not true — hence the book “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” Further, it is easier for working class and rural voters to swing right than to swing left. What worked for Reagan won’t necessarily work for Obama.

    When Obama loses in the Fall, you can blame Clinton for it if you wish — you blame her for so many other things, what’s one more? But it will not be her fault. It will be the wishful thinking of the Democratic Party. We’ve done this to ourselves before. Clinton has offered Democrats an option and they are refusing it. THAT is the choice that you Obama supporters will be responsible for in the Fall.

    When you must take someone by the hand and lead them to a registration form, they will not have the motivation to vote in Nov. These big registration drives have been tried before and they do not work. So-called young voters do not show up because their attention spans are short and the competing demands on their time require a real commitment to overcome, something they have not made to anything yet in their lives. When someone is an “Independent” or a crossover Republican, they will not stick with a Democratic candidate once their whim (whatever it was) wears off. There is a reason why people are Independents and not Democrats in the first place. Obama has been running as a conservative in contrast to Clinton and that has appealed to those less firmly attached to our party. In the Fall, he will be painted as a flaming liberal and the contrast will be to McCain, who seems to many voters to be a stealth moderate. Obama is going to look much more liberal and that will give second thoughts to those Independent and Republican crossovers. McCain is not Bush and the Independents and Repulicans will hope and believe that he is different than Bush (much as you are hoping and believing that Obama is ready to be President). There will be a swing back to the Republican Party. Obama has no way to counter that and it will eat into his support, which is tenuous already. He should be at his strongest right now yet he is having difficulty beating McCain in important states.

    The analyses I’ve seen for TX, PA and IN showed little impact from Limbaugh’s noise on Clinton’s numbers, but they do show decreased support for Obama among Independents and Republicans after his earlier red state victories. I’m not surprised, but you cannot go on claiming that he holds those constituencies when the numbers don’t support the claim.

  • At no point did I say it would be your candidate’s fault, Mary—I said it would be YOUR fault—and your spin on this is cowardly.

    You also assume that crossing over today means crossing back tomorrow—which is not the case. You seem to think that everyone is crossing over just to get McCain into the WH—again, not true, and your spin on this part clearly indicates that you didn’t thoroughly read my earlier post. People who do not want another Bush presidency will cross over to prevent that from happening. It doesn’t mean that they’ll vote a straight Dem ticket in November; it just means that they don’t want another neocon freak in the WH

    Your “all or none” mentality is demonstrable of your teaching style, and I truly pity your students. Especially the ones that might show up in one of my classes one day, when they’ve had to pay tuition and fees, but lack the basic prerequisites for college-level work—and I have to fail them for your failures.

  • Mark Pencil @ 66: The reason for the comment you referred to (Democrats have been enabling both Clintons for far too long and would better to be rid of them once and for all) is this…

    A more rational, reality-based political environment cannot be achieved until Republican tactics of distraction and deception (among others) are completely discredited among the voting public. And that cannot happen while Democratic candidates employ them.

    If HRC’s campaign has done anything, it has revealed how willing she and WJC have been to employ the techniques of the right to fool Democratic voters — not to benefit the country or the party or to clear the air, but to benefit the Clintons.

  • dont kid yourself – it isn’t just “the right.” Dems have engaged in raw politics for generations as well. it isn’t just the Clintons; it is politics, American style.

    the only way for Obama to have a chance to change that culture is if he wins.

    he can’t win without a significant percentage of the Clinton supporters.

    making peace with Team Clinton, even if it means helping retire her debt, is pragmatically a step towards the ultimate goal.

  • No question that Dems practiced raw politics for years and long before the Clintons. I just don’t see that as justification for continuing it — nor do I think the country can survive it much longer (assuming we haven’t already passed the point of no return). This thread is old so I’ll not go into a list of reasons why the Clinton’s never really did much for Democratic causes.

    Clinton supporters are another matter. I never suggested Obama should shun or ignore them. Of course he needs them — and it would be in their self interest to support him.
    You suggest that I and some others are “bitter” but that unless Obama kisses the royal ring, Clinton supporters will sit out November or vote for McCain? I think you have the “bitter” thing backwards.

  • God damn Clinton ought to be thrown into a debtors prison and forgotten until they find her bones 500 years from now. Every time I see her arrogant puss, I want to throw up until my organs lie on the floor. That’s how much she makes me sick.

  • P.S. Puss is an old fashioned word for face… but Face is far too lady-like a word for Clinton.

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