It’s my church and I’ll marry whom I want

Guest Post by Morbo

The Carpetbagger’s post on the California Supreme Court’s gay-marriage ruling is pretty comprehensive. There is one aspect of the decision, however, that is important and should not be overlooked: Religious Right groups have argued that if same-sex marriage becomes legal, conservative churches will be forced to perform the ceremonies. This is a stupid claim, and the California high court made short work of it.

Here is what the majority said:

“[A]ffording same-sex couples the opportunity to obtain the designation of marriage will not impinge upon the religious freedom of any religious organization, official, or any other person; no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”

It couldn’t be any clearer, could it?

This argument was always bogus and one of the more pathetic ones the Religious Right made in its quest to “save marriage.” Clergy have always had the right to perform marriage ceremonies only for couples who meet their theological standards. Let’s say you’re a Methodist and you want to marry a Presbyterian. If you go to a Catholic church, the priest will tell you both to convert first or hit the road.

Let’s say you and your intended are both Catholic. The priest can still send you packing if he doesn’t like the way you’ve been behaving. If you two have been living together, chances are he’ll tell you to split up for a certain period before he’ll agree to do the ceremony. If you haven’t been to confession or received communion in a while, be prepared to go. Do you plan to have children? You might be required to promise to raise them in the church. If you don’t like these conditions, too bad. The priest is not required to do anything for you. You are expected to meet his conditions, not the other way around.

A house of worship can even ignore laws that other institutions must scrupulously follow. A public accommodation can’t kick you out because the owner does not like the color of your skin. A church that espoused separation of the races could not only refuse to marry an interracial couple, it could deny them the right to even enter the building.

Priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. can impose these conditions on you because every house of worship has the right to determine its own policies and practices. The First Amendment gives all faiths that right. Religious Right claims to the contrary are scare-mongering and nothing more.

The California Supreme Court ruling is a useful reminder that marriage is, at the end of the day, a civil matter. Of course you are welcome to add a religious gloss to your special day if you like; most people do. But it isn’t required, and each religious faith gets to decide for itself the conditions for performing ceremonies. Those conditions will obviously be theological in nature. For the government, they never can be.

Funny how the right doesn’t want anyone imposing their beliefs on anybody doesn’t seem to have a problem with forcing their beliefs on everybody else.

  • All good points Morbo, but you’re missing an important aspect: these bozos are as scared of gays as they are because in their secret heart of hearts many of them are afraid they are gay – and with the scandals we have seen among these dirtbags, it’s a well-founded fear. They’re somehow scared that all the men in their church are like them – secretly gay – and they’d want to get married in “their” church.

    Is this idiotic? Insane even? Maybe to someone who isn’t a secret, seriously-cloested gay it would be “normal thought”. I was once in a position of being around guys with some major sex hang-ups they were working through, and the number of guys who were in fundamentalist churches, who had been raped as boys by their fathers (according to the stories they told in the sessions) was really astounding.

    I’ve always thought that fundamentalism was for those so unsure of themselves and who/what they are that they had to have some all-controlling structure to keep them “good.” Sort of like “Step-Nazi” AA for those who can’t keep their thoughts or their fingers off the bottle.

  • I say let them marry, then divorce and bitch about getting screwed over like the rest of us! /snark

    A bit of poetic license follows:

    When the Nazis Homeland Security came for the communists gays,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist gay.

    When they came for the Jews Muslims,
    I remained silent;
    I wasn’t a Jew Muslim.

    When they came for me, the social democrats and trade unionists,
    there was no one left to speak out.

  • The problem for the fundies is that they want to replace our government with a theocracy. A theocratic government would not only be able to set guidelines for churches, it would be required to. The RR’s fear of gay marriage is that they might get what they’re really after.
    The other thing, which we’re all familiar with, is that when conservatives don’t have a self made victimhood to revel in, they have nothing.

  • On May 17th, 2008 at 9:50 am, Lew Scannon said:

    Funny how the right doesn’t want anyone imposing their beliefs on anybody doesn’t seem to have a problem with forcing their beliefs on everybody else.

    That’s because their real issue is control; religion is only used as a cloak.

  • The most interesting point here is the Pandora’s box that the First Amendment has unwittingly opened up – that in the name of religion the most godawful practices are protected.

  • Hark, they don’t just want First Amendment rights…they want rights above and beyond.

    If they wanted only to have the freedom of speech, I would be all for that. But they don’t. They want everything, to be part of the government, to be driving the bus, not simply on it.

    Maybe if they start by paying taxes. Ah, but a slippery slope that is. They would then become a citizen as corporations have, and that’s a truly scary thought.

  • The only way marriage can be made sense of is to treat it the same way we do the other demographic events, birth and death.

    Government issues birth certificates and death certificates. Churches offer baptisms and funerals. The former, meeting civil society’s minimum needs, are proper sphere of government. The latter, being optional, are the province of various faith communities.

    Government should certify civil marriages and divorces (certificates of marriage, certificates of divorce). Weddings (are their divorce ceremonies?) should be up to churches.

  • Ed (post 8) has a great bit of reality in his post, though reality means little to the far right. I always try to make the point that your city/ townhall issues a marraige license (not a wedding or matrimonial license). The same townhall collects your taxes. If gays and lesbians are not allowed to obtain a civil license in a government building, why are they obliged to pay taxes? Churches don’t pay taxes and here they are spewing their rules to people not of their church.

  • Pretending that marriage equality legislation would force churches/other religious institutions to marry gays and lesbians was always just fear-mongering for the low-information crowd. It’s pandering to the unschooled in the manner of promoting a gas tax holiday or pretending that our leaving Iraq will put every terrorist on the first available flight to the U.S.

  • ALL issues involving GTBL are wedge issues that cannot be easily solved. Thats why they are continously used. They are designed NOT to be solved,but to continue to be used as a tool of DIVISION,a wedge,whose edge never dulls,and will by design,continue to sharply divide and conquer the voters.

  • Right groups have argued that if same-sex marriage becomes legal, conservative churches will be forced to perform the ceremonies.

    They should be forced to perform ceremonies for everyone else it’s descrimination. You can’t do it in a diner why should you be able to do it in a church?.

  • The one point all of you have missed is that a church is an assembly of willful participents. If you do not like the practices, leave. Churches do not force their will on the general public. They outline acceptable behavior based upon the belief of those attending and the book they use. It is the left who tries to make everyone fit their idea of morality. If people ask me of my faith I will tell them what I think is right and wrong. The left looks at our views and tells us we can’t have or express them. Who is intollerant?
    If you don’t like what they say in church, don’t go. Or form a nother one of people who think like you. Call it the you can’t have an opinion church where no ones feelings will be hurt.

  • Hey Mark (comment #13), just wondering. Did you read the post? That’s the point. You are free to have and keep your ignorant views in your churches. You just can’t turn them into civil law.

  • Dale @12:

    Because houses of worship are not places of public accommodation. That pesky First Amendment keeps the government out of religion!! Why, what WERE the Founders THINKING?

    And Mark @13, if you honestly believe that churches don’t force their will on anyone, you haven’t been paying attention to the last 2,500 years or so of recorded human history. When a certain religious institution becomes the government, nasty, nasty things happen. Please see the obvious examples of the Inquisition, the Crusades, the witch trials in the Massachusetts and Connecticut Colonies, the Taliban, the Persian Caliphate, and the Wahhabi.

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