The request that Democrats aren’t supposed to make

I’ve been toying with an idea the last few days, and this reference in an AP article helped encapsulate the point.

In the same editorial board meeting, [Hillary] Clinton said ”it is unprecedented in history” for political activists to urge a candidate to withdraw when his or her chances of winning the nomination appear remote. In fact, such events have happened several times.

Three months ago, Republican hopeful Mike Huckabee angered Sen. John McCain by lingering in the GOP race after McCain’s nomination seemed all but assured. ”Of course I would like for him to withdraw today,” McCain said at the time. A McCain campaign memo, which was leaked to the media, said the campaign was being forced to spend money in upcoming primary states merely to avoid being embarrassed by the underfunded Huckabee.

I’ve been rather confused of late about why the notion of urging Hillary Clinton to withdraw has become verboten. To be sure, I can understand why ardent Clinton backers would encourage her to hang in there as long as possible, but I get the sense that anyone who recommends the second-place candidate step aside to benefit the party and the first-place candidate is accused of pushing the boundaries of political norms.

The Obama campaign certainly seems to have picked up on this. After subtle suggestions about wrapping up the nominating fight, both Obama and his top aides have been extremely cautious about even hinting that Clinton get out of the way. They’ve made symbolic gestures — the celebration in Iowa on Tuesday didn’t exactly include an ambiguous message about the state of the Democratic race — but they’ve also said, on the record, repeatedly, that Clinton should stay in as long as she’d like. The decision is entirely up to her and her campaign.

And yet, I’ve seen some suggestions that encouraging Clinton to drop out is akin to misogyny and condescension. It’s disrespectful. It’s a metaphorical slap in the face. It’s even undemocratic, given that voters in Puerto Rico, Montana, and South Dakota haven’t weighed in yet.

I find all of this confusing.

When McCain had a large and seemingly insurmountable lead over Huckabee, the McCain campaign, with varying degrees of subtlety, indicated that the senator sure would appreciate it if the former governor got out of the way. He didn’t, and the process continued.

But no one, at least as far as I can tell, suggested that McCain’s signals were somehow offensive. Of course McCain wanted Huckabee out of the way — McCain was winning, Huckabee wasn’t going to be able to close the gap, and McCain didn’t want to commit additional resources to a nominating fight he was very likely to win anyway.

But Huckabee didn’t care and McCain eventually stopped making hints. No one cared, and Huckabee certainly didn’t make his campaign about resisting the forces trying to end the GOP contest.

The comparison is admittedly inexact. Clinton has done far, far better in the Democratic race than Huckabee did in the Republican race. But when it comes to the delegates needed to secure the party’s nod, when Huckabee’s gap appeared insurmountable, the powers that be encouraged him to clear the stage. Similarly, now that Clinton’s gap appears insurmountable, there are some — outside the Obama inner circle — encouraging her to wrap things up.

What I don’t get is why this is considered so insulting and offensive. Some Dems want Clinton to withdraw. Clinton doesn’t want to withdraw. Can’t we just move on?

At this point, it seems like the emphasis on this has become counter-productive. It’s as if the point of the campaign is to keep campaigning, and one of the central tenets of the Clinton effort has less to do with her platform and ideas, and more to do with the fact that she needs to keep fighting precisely because people are encouraging her to stop fighting.

Clinton’s principal opponent, in other words, isn’t Barack Obama or John McCain, it’s people telling her to wrap things up. Given the microphone, Clinton is using it to talk about how important it is that she keep getting the microphone.

I’ve even seen some comments and emails this week from Clinton supporters saying they’re more inclined to vote Republican every time they hear an Obama supporter say Clinton should step aside. Why? First, it’s not Obama who’s saying it. But second, why is this such an insolent thing to say?

Maybe the Clinton campaign holds out hope that hundreds of superdelegates will change their minds and override the pledged delegates. Maybe the party will drop delegates as the metric and, in the 11th hour, decide that the popular vote matters more. Maybe there will be some shocking development before the convention that will shake up the race in unexpected ways.

But in the meantime, of course some in the party want to make it easier for the likely nominee, which necessarily means asking the second-place candidate to stand down. If she disagrees, she can say so, and get back to the race.

I’m probably not articulating this as clearly as I’d hoped. My point isn’t exactly whether Clinton should drop out. What I’m actually wondering is why Dems aren’t supposed to even ask.

One must not disturb the Holy Family. Don’t we know that the presidency is hers by divine right? It is sacrilege to suggest otherwise. Soon we will all come to our senses and bow down at the Altar of ClinTON. (pronounced like Kudos/Kang did in the Simpsons)

Or not.

  • The lie that not voting for shillary and urging her to end her dishonest negative campaign that is entirely focused on OBAMA and not the mclame or the issues that Americans care about is somehow misogyny and condescension is even more insulting because:

    1. Most of Obamas supporters have been part of the fight for equal rights for all – regardless of race, religion, creed, or gender

    2. Her campaign is now relying on kkkarl rove’s talking points and the support of rush limbaugh – clearly some of the most racist folks in politics for the past 2 decades. When they “catapult propoganda” that helps her, shillary is glad to work with the misogyny and condescension crowd.

    3. No candidate in the history of our politics has proclaimed to the world that they should stay in a negative, losing battle cuz the other guy might get shot!

    The fact is, shillary was the front-runner and darling of the mainstream media. She has run a terrible campaign and has no one to blame but herself.

  • Stacy6 – actually a pair of family monarchs splits serving as our supreme leader – like the rides in NASCAR.

    She is entitled to the thrown because it is an Alter of bush-clinton-bush-clinton

    And it looks like jeb is jockeying to be the next heir.

  • Its the clinton supporters who feel they’ve been cheated out of what they consider their turn, and the Obama supporters are a little worried that they’ll refuse to vote for Obama if they feel Clinton is forced out

  • Why can’t the super delegates declare themselves and be done with the damn thing? Why blame the candidates for competing? They didn’t make this mess. This should be a lesson on how not to design a primary campaign.

  • little bear, find meds that work. Please. Or at least learn the difference between “thrown” and “throne.” Sheesh. You don’t actually think anyone takes you seriously, do you?

    Back on topic, I think what’s going on is that Hillary is no longer Hillary Clinton. She is All Women. Suggesting that she should drop out is tantamount to suggesting that no woman can ever be president. Suggesting that she is flawed is saying that all women are flawed. Calling her power hungry, dishonest, and, yes, shrill, is saying those things about all women.

    Somehow, in the Clinton campaign’s eyes, this campaign has ceased to be about the better individual candidate for President, and it has become a referendum on the role and equality of women in America. It was an OK meme to push when it was subtle, but at this point they’ve taken it so far that it leads to these “suggesting she drop out is sexist” outbursts, which anyone with two brain cells can tell makes no sense at all.

  • I like the approach Obama and his campaign have been taking, personally. The main reason I support him is because he walks his talk; he is high-brow, doesn’t pander, and keeps himself anchored firmly on the summit of the moral high ground. That’s a very rare combination to find in any politician (heck, in any *American*), and it is refreshing to see it in someone who has advanced so far as to be within throwing distance of the Presidency.

    I don’t agree with all of his politics, but I’ve always respected a class act.

    And I think he’s being very classy by not making any public comments that Clinton should drop out. He’s already won; there’s no need for him to kick her when she’s down. And it highlights the differences between them even more that he’s not doing anything overt that could be considered gloating over his victory. A sore winner is, in many ways, worse than a sore loser.

    I’ll admit that I really wish Clinton would drop out, but I’m not sure it would make much difference either way. The writing is on the wall, and I don’t think the Clinton trolls vowing against Obama will have as big an impact as they seem to think they will. In fact, it sounds a lot like the republican martyr-complex crowd who vowed to campaign against McCain, and almost to a man fell in behind him despite that. Similarly, I suspect that when Obama’s victory is made official, most dems will fall in behind him.

  • PS: Brooks, you’re wasting your time. Best to not poke the troll at all.

  • hark – its not that she is competing – its that she is catapulting kkarl roves talking points and setting the memes that will be used to justify another stolen election.

    She is doing the dirty work for mclame and the neocon/repugs – shouldn’t surprise anyone – bill did a lot of their dirty work too.

  • Diid yu kno thaat speling iz nott reely importnt whn creeatng a reedible mssge. In fct, sistums of “spead righting’ r oftn bassed on ohmitting intermeediat vwls. Mny r amzed to c tht thy cn actualee cnstrct meenng from grssly mssplled wrds. Amzng, izn’t it!

  • brook – you think anyone actually takes you serious?

    Are you another blogging god that thinks they are changing the world by pounding on these keyboards proclaiming what everyone else should do?

    Like your opinion really matters here, because, you are you!

  • gotta love it when tiny minds argue over which little bozo is driving the bus

  • The Clintons always put a lot of stock in celebrity. They sought it themselves and surrounded themselves with celebrity from many walks including Hollywood.

    Hillary is on center stage. If not the presidency itself, just about the next thing to it. Maintaining herself in the race keeps her right where she wants to be. It is almost a sickness or maybe a messiah complex. The sacrificial female candidate who got shafted out of the kingdom.

  • Hillary and her campaign have gone beyond a point of annoyance. But the real damage she is doing to herself is she is destroying her own mystique. When this campaign began, Hillary was generally viewed as a shrewd, smart politician. Her tactics, inability to tell which way the political winds are blowing and her poor rhetoric are only indicating she is not what she once seemed. Ditto for husband Bill. The Clintons used to have political capital. But instead of investing it and increasing their political prestige, they’ve spent it like Bush has done and wound-up losing their public esteem. Unless the Clintons do make some serious amends or what has transpired these last several months, they’re destined to wind-up as has-beens on the political junkpile of history.

  • I find it mind boggling. She can’t improve her circumstances by making incredibly insincere arguments like comparing the FL/MI votes to slavery and sufferage. She isn’t pushing new or different policies. The closest she came lately was the gas tax. She takes the nation’s attention off McCain’s taxes/health records/denunciations of pastors by making a stupid argument for staying in the race. She contributes to the notion that this is a nation of bigots, without any serious attempt to change or correct it.

    Huckabee was a dunce. But Hillary is an enigma.

  • Petorado, a good point there. There’s been a lot of speculation that Hillary has her eye on 2012 and figures a McCain win is better for her, personally, than an Obama win. But I can’t imagine anyone in the party, from leadership to rank-and-file, letting her get her foot in the door in any future campaign. She has become politically toxic.

  • But back on the subject…

    Hillary is down to her diehard core of supporters, and the Dems who won’t consider voting for Obama because… well, just because. They’re passionate, and since she came so close to winning…

    It’s like being 13 points down with 30 seconds to go. Run out the clock? Unthinkable! Hail Mary pass? Definitely.

    So because of the passion and the closeness, they don’t want to let go. It’s not a Democrat / Republican thing in my opinion.

    Huck had no chance whatsoever. He wouldn’t even have been the party’s second choice. Different situation.

  • I think there is schoolyard wisdom being used here.

    Remember that biting line for the SNL skit: “I am a sore loser.”?

    On the playground, we learn that when someone is acting out, the best thing to do is just go on to some other game, and ignore the tantrum rather than try to force the kid to give up the ball and stop whining. They’ll catch on, or get tired of stamping their feet, eventually. Demanding that they give up the ball and play by the rules just makes them worse.

  • It’s kind of like the McCain policy on Iraq. We can’t stop fighting because we will lose, and we can’t lose. So even if we can;t win, we can’t quit.

    This is what happens to people who put too much of their identity into fighting. The become the fight and the fight becomes (about) them.

  • What we seem to overlook is that Hillary can set the tone for her supporters. They wouldn’t consider this “civil war” behavior without her open approval.

    While simultaneously crying “mysogeny”, she believes she is entitled to re-write the rules because she is “the first woman to get this far”, and so we let her keep going. Well, there are plenty of us women (of all colors) of her generation who are sick and tired of her using the term “feminist” to her own advantage. I say we should all contact the superdelegates this weekend and demand an end to this thing.

  • The ugly truth behind this issue is that Senator Clinton has been the willing recipient of, if not prime exponent of, chauvenism. Meaning she has repeatedly invoked her gender as a means of mitigating responsibility for her actions.

    Take one moment to consider how the press and the party would be reacting to a man in Hillary’s current situation — gaffes or no gaffes — and it’s quite clear that she’s being treated nicely because nobody wants to ‘beat up on the girl.’

    So I ask again: which is it? Are women tough enough to be in politics (yes), or do they need special treatment (no)?

    Hillary should be grabbed by the belt and the scruff of her neck and shoved out the door. Any man who had campaigned as she has over the past few weeks would have been vilified.

    But we can’t say anything bad about Hillary, because that would be being mean.

  • I’m usually one to avoid or even rebuke hypotheticals, because there’s plenty of actual reality to comment and think on. Still, I can’t help but wonder how Clinton in particular and her supporters in general would react if Obama were to use the word “assassination” in connection with her. Yow, can you imagine?

  • Brooks said:
    Still, I can’t help but wonder how Clinton in particular and her supporters in general would react if Obama were to use the word “assassination” in connection with her. Yow, can you imagine?

    But that would be different! That would be picking on Hillary just because she’s a woman!

  • Brooks @6 nails it. I heard Pat Schroeder on NPR the other evening. The whole interview could be summed up in her statement that she was certain that she would see a woman President in her lifetime, now she’s not so sure.

    I can understand her disappointment, but that isn’t Obama’s fault and any anger that Clinton’s supporters feel toward Obama is likewise misplaced. Nothing has prevented Clinton from running a superior campaign. She certainly had many political advantages not enjoyed by Obama or any other contender.

    It saddens me to hear the resentment in Schroeder’s voice at seeing her candidate beaten. Hillary Clinton is qualified to be President. She’s just not the best candidate in this primary season, as determined by the Party’s rules. If Schroeder and women like her want to be judged on their merits, they have to come to terms with this.

  • Am I missing something here? Isn’t it the unspoken desire of EVERY participant of EVERY contest of EVERY kind to get the opponent(s) to give up? Chess, baseball, and warfare seem to have that principle at their core. And the sooner the better. Hillary has spent her entire adult life in the political arena and she wants me to believe that it is UNFAIR for her rival in the primary to wish her out of the race? How odd.

  • Confusing??? I think you’re just feeling the pangs of an Obama Supporter Tantrum.
    Read the rules and don’t give in to “I know what I want and I want it now!”.

  • No odd, rob – she feels entitled to it – it isn’t about democracy at all. It’s all about a sense of elitism and the expectation that she is the chosen people to continue the criminality of the gang behind bush – that’s why kkkarl and rush are on her side.

    Of course – shillary or her supporters won’t even talk about why she is now uses that lies and accepts support from the “vast right-wing conspiracy”.

  • Clinton’s accusations of unfairness when it comes to asking her to drop out is ludicrous, but she’s been banging that drum for some time now. I suspect that if Obama screamed “IT’S BECAUSE I’M BLACK!” every time Clinton said anything about him, a great number of people would be turned off by his rhetoric. Eventually the message to the Obama camp would be “Oh, shut up already.” It does truly amaze me that Clinton can bring up sexism in every other breath and not receive an overwhelming negative reaction. Does she really think our country is more sexist than racist? Has she actually looked at her fellow Democratic Presidential candidate and considered what he’s up against in this country? Her reference to Bobby Kennedy’s assassination was truly unbelievable – I find it very hard to believe she hadn’t given a thought to how it could be (and was) taken. If Obama had in any way insinuated that he was the better candidate because Clinton could potentially be Bhuttoed, Clinton would be in meltdown mode and screaming sexism from the tallest building she could find.

    Clinton’s take on it seems to be “I’m a woman, therefore I can’t lose. If I *do* lose, it’s because everyone is sexist.” Unfortunately, by that logic, if the other guy loses, it’s because everyone is racist. I suppose if McCain loses it’ll be because he’s an old white fart. Quite a slippery slope we’ve got here. When, oh when, will our country stop hating women, men, blacks, whites, the old, and the young?!

  • I read the funniest remark on another blog by a US serviceman or woman in Middle East. But it was also extremely telling. The poster, who made his or her way to an Internet cafe wrote:

    “Man I woke up this morning to the freakin gaffe Clinton made. She’s acting like she has a swarm of bees stuck in her hair”. The picture is hilarious when considered in context and likelihood.

    But it’s also very, very tragic. Clinton voted to send that serviceman, and thousands of others, out to Iraq or Afghanistan and now she’s saying she “was wrong”. And last year, Clinton along with her peers and contemporaries, voted to penalize Floria and Michigan for breaking party rules.

    Now that her loss has been obvious for weeks – she’s on a new campaign and again – it’s all about HER. To get those Florida and Michigan votes, and by deception and not honor. If she wins this latest turn-coat decision, she loses integrity. If she loses? Well, she’ll forever shove down our throats that she “was denied her win”.

    It’s politicians and presidents like this the world does NOT need. To go on about Bosnia, Zimbabwe, RFK, requires a book; however I have one thing to add about her covertly clandestine and callously calculating comments: Have you EVER seen Hillary Clinton in …. A BLUE DRESS?

    Wonder why? This ain’t a dumb cookie. She prefers to see the party split and heinous “ethnic cleansing” among her own party than to ensure the American dream returns: Democrats are back in office.

    I find the whole thing quite hideous. God Bless the men and women on duty around the world; strength, love and patience to their families and may the wings of fallen Angels uphold the country, its dream, dignity and its future. J-P-B

  • I can sort of see how the Clintonites feel. It’s like a basketall game that had some iffy calls, maybe a broken backboard, a coach having a heart attack. Not a simple contest by any means. And if you’re pulling for your team you’re going to fixate on all the irregularities to keep believing your team coulda shoulda won. it’s not like Clinton has lost badly. She’s about as close as any Democrat has come to winning the national race. I’m sure it’s frustrating for them. But it’s not half as frustrating as Clinton’s continued obnoxiousness. It’s time for her to go.

  • CB, I think the reason democrats can not say it is time for her to sit down is the media has forbidden it. The Established media wants to keep the fight going. It serves their purposes. They do not want to cover McCain. He is an awful candidate. The Establishment has propped up McCain for years. There really is no way to cover McCain for a prolonged period of time and not let the cat out of the bag.

  • Oh Rob_in_Hawaii. I just saw your comment 🙂

    Gosh, no-oooo. Can’t be the objective. That would mean deploying logic, respect, exemplary skills, game-understanding and strategy in keeping fans thrilled with their sport; people free in their countries and never abusing your knight. Also requires grasping that the 2nd over the line by two parties cannot ever be not number 1 (ha ha). Might also include realizing the rest of the team represents a whole – but hey – we’re not after bonus points for extra-time are we?

  • They can’t cover mclame now without exposing the lying liars they have been for the past decade or more.

  • Since Clinton and some of her less rational champions are acting like petulant teenagers, perhaps we should employ the old parental reverse psychology on them and urge her to keep going until the convention. She might immediately drop out while her supporters fumed that Obama supporters had the gall to try to tell this strong, independent woman what to do.

    Seriously, it’s about the fight for Team Clinton now because there isn’t anything else left for it to be about. It’s the fight for the fight. It is going to be so much harder for them to come down after ending it this way than it would have been if they’d approached it calmly and gracefully–if they’d just been able to accept that there can only be one nominee and she just wasn’t the one the majority wanted.

  • No one has yet put 1 and 2 together here to get 3:

    1) She was the clear frontrunner, had the name, the fame, the money, and the polls all crying “Hillary!”

    2) Because of (1) she did feel entitled. And of course having power and fame added this into the mix of her mind: “Not only am I entitled, but I’ve earned the right, I’ve paid the dues, and I am the best choice.”

    Now let’s do the sum:

    3) Despite the facts of (1) and the egotistical delusions of (2) she lost. How one handles losing is a true test of character. Being drunk on power and delusional about her own peccadillos, Hillary had to locate the cause of her failure to an exterior source: She is a woman. That’s why she lost. She is obviously the best candidate. They stole it from me. I am a victim. No woman will ever be president in my lifetime. Because obviously I am the best woman candidate that could ever be.

    Now you know why she can say something as dumb as this: ”it is unprecedented in history”
    She is drunk on power, delusional, and mentally ill.

    And that’s why no one from Barack’s camp dares to suggest she quit.
    Everyone knows… you have to treat the mentally ill with kid gloves…
    Of course, being ill, she continues to hear voices…

  • Of course Hillary should drop out of the race. She should have done so a month and a half ago. It’s all over and it’s been over. But that’s my opinion. If it offends you, it’s your problem. I’m not at all offended that Hillary could care less about my opinion. That’s how opinions go.

    I’m beginning to feel sorry for her. I’ve always liked and respected her, but her desperation to win this thing is taking it’s toll on that opinion. She has 2 choices: bow out gracefully, or be branded as a historic loser. The window for the first option is closing rapidly. There is nothing wrong with losing to an extremely charismatic candidate who has mounted a near perfect campaign. Failure to face that reflects poorly on her grasp of today’s reality. We already have a president who relies on miracles to make things work. No more of that, please.

  • Hillary has a lot of support and these supporters keep urging her to continue on. What insults and angers Obama supporters apparently doesn’t bother these Hillary supporters. All the insulting name calling and expressions of anger are not coming from Obama himself and only stand in the way of what he hopes to achieve. I do not see where you are getting this idea that it is insulting when supporters ask Clinton to step aside unless you are referring to those who are “demanding” she step aside

    Her comments about the RFK deal really had nothing to do with “assassination” as some here are spinning it but was merely a way of saying that things could happen to any candidate that could unexpectedly remove them from the race whether by assassination or getting hit by lightening or having a heart attack in which case it would be better that there already be an alternative candidate still in the race…period. There should be nothing more to be made of that comment but look at how it got used to hit her.
    I’m an Obama supporter but I get sick to death of those continually “demonizing” Clinton. Obama feels no need to do this and treats her with respect. I just try to ignore those who feel the need to express their anger in such hateful ways.

    I have discussions with Hill supporters without feeling the need to belittle them or condescend to them or think they are stupid or care less about our democracy than I do. Somethings are more important to them than they are to me and vice versa.

    I also think it is a poor analysis to state Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton as if we have been electing kings or something as the dynamic of our elected leaders when it should be republican-democrat-republican-democrat because “families” were not elected…Partys were. These were representatives of Partys and not families and to suggest otherwise means monarchies and not democracies were in place. In Bush Jrs. case that may be accurate but if you want to end the reign of the Partys then elect a Green and not another democrat.
    I hope people are not looking at personalities as separate from the parties they represent because these personalities should be seen as either better or worse capable of representing us. There is a world of difference in the ideologies of repubs and dems and more important than Obama in the WH is making sure it is a Dem in the WH. It would make it easier if Clinton stood down but then it would have made it easier if she would have stood down at Iowa too. Doesn’t bother me if she keeps running…I wanted Kucinich…the only true progressive dem we have. Everything should be judged as either plus or minus Kucinich to measure how viable it is.

  • My point isn’t exactly whether Clinton should drop out. What I’m actually wondering is why Dems aren’t supposed to even ask. — CB

    It’s like going to a grocery store with your two year old. You know, exactly, how loudly he can scream when thwarted, so you try and avoid provoking a very public outburst. Such an outburst is likely to result in all of the shoppers looking askance at you, with half of them thinking “poor child, he’s being mistreated” and the other half thinkinking “geez, woman, can’t you do *something* about the brat?”

    We know how loudly Hillary can scream — all the way to invoking assassination — so we’re avoiding a public outburst which would hurt us in the eyes of *everyone*. The parenting has to be done at home, out of sight of the public (DNC negotiations we may never even hear about).

    She was, by the way, right, when she said it took a village to raise a child. Only, in her case, it’s going to take The Village (DC)…

  • What worries me is the idea that the longer she stays in, the more she undoes all the great things that her campaign might have done for herself, for her sex, for her party, and for her country.

    I read a comment, I think on another site, recently that has stayed with me. Someone said rather than making it easier for the next woman candidate, Hillary was now ensuring there wouldn’t be another one for 50 years. I’m not so sure that’s wrong, though I don’t want it to be right.

    She puts me in mind of the old joke about the woman who wanted to be equal to men in the worst way–and was. I think a lot of people who could’ve supported her, male and female (had she won the nomination, in an aboveboard manner), feel the same way.

    Come to think of it, that’s why Obama’s “Change we can BELIEVE in” slogan works so well. Nominating Clinton means nominating someone who is only a “different” candidate superficially. She’s shown that with virtually every move she’s made.

    I remember getting a (computerized) tounge-lashing from someone when I said one of my reasons for supporting Obama was Hillary’s voting for the war and refusing to admit she was wrong.

    The other person said that Hillary, as a woman, would have her “toughness” called into question if she admitted a mistep, so it was ok that she didn’t. To which my reply was, and is,

    “So…you’re saying we should elect someone who’s LESS able to admit a mistake than George W. Bush? No, thank you.”

  • I also think it is a poor analysis to state Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton as if we have been electing kings or something as the dynamic of our elected leaders when it should be republican-democrat-republican-democrat because “families” were not elected…Partys were.

    Ugh.
    Not paying attention are you?

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/05/madame-presiden.html

    ABC News’ Ed O’Keefe Reports: Perhaps there will be a Madame President Clinton after all. No, not Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y. How about former first daughter and active campaigner Chelsea Clinton?

    “If you asked me (if Chelsea would run for office) before Iowa, I would have said, ‘No way. She is too allergic to anything we do.’ But she is really good at it,” former President Bill Clinton tells PEOPLE magazine in their latest issue, hitting newsstands Friday.

    Disgusting stuff.
    Anybody want to guess how many “years” of experience Chelsea already has?

    I will do what ever I legally can do to defeat Clinton-Bush hegemony.
    When Chelsea decides to run…. I am with the republicans this time around.
    There is no hot Vince Foster like rumor I won’t fan. No mean-ball I won’t hurl.
    These people stink on ice.

  • Clinton’s unspeakable remarks were historical analogy. She knows that Super Tuesday used to be in March and the CA primary used to be in June. In the context of her racial appeals, allegations of extremist ties by Sen. Obama & her claims that his victory over her is due sexism by Sen. Obama the unbalanced could very well take this as an invitation. The response of her supporters characterizing the Obama campaign’s tactful response to this as an attack on her indicate that they will act on her invitation.
    If she did this without considering its implications she is unfit to be the President whose chance remarks can have global implications. If this was purposeful & her prior conduct militates against any presumption of good faith, the implications are horrific.
    Either way, she should withdraw not only from the campaign but also from public life.

  • Well, I can see I’m way late coming to this party, but to get back on point, and to answer the question of why is it inappropriate to ask/suggest/demand that Sen. Clinton withdraw: It’s because she’s a woman and most adult women with much experience at all are familiar with the cultural bias that requires women to defer to men when a manager, director, top executive, or other leader is needed. It’s not something sinister, and the same situation would obtain if Clinton’s and Obama’s positions were reversed. Calls for Obama to step aside would be viewed from the well-founded experience of racial prejudice.

    We’ve come this far, in the campaign; the acrimony of that actual candidates (as opposed to many of their supporters) has dampened; and we’ve only got a couple of weeks and a couple of low-cost primaries to go. It’s going to be okay. Viva Obama!

  • ” I say we should all contact the superdelegates this weekend and demand an end to this thing.”
    ______Linda of Oregon

    Funny, I have just finished sending of requests to Senator Wyden, Secretary of State Bill Bradbury and Governor Ted Kulongoski to endorse Barack Obama. Wyden and Bradbury have not endorsed, Kulongoski endorsed Hillary before this was a contested race. My Congressman, bless his heart and good judgement, endorsed Barack Obama some time ago.

    These people are my elected representatives. I am now considering what my link is to the other DNC Superdelegates from Oregon, other than belonging to the same party as me. Any ideas are appreciated.

  • Ben @ #39: That’s a very good response to what that Clinton supporter said. I particularly like the rather overt way it connects the problems to Bush. That’s another big part of the reason I’m supporting Obama (“despite”, one might say, my being a woman; a big 😛 to you Clinton trolls). He’s honestly trying to do things differently than the establishment.

    I would also add to your response that the “toughness” metric is yet another thing that needs to be thrown away. This artificial “macho swagger” stupidity that the punditocracy is using to judge American politicians is disgusting. It is the viewpoint expressed by the “Got to be tough!” outlook that has lead us into the disasters we have now, both foreign and domestic. We illegally invaded and occupied Iraq, and are now rattling sabers at Iran, because Bush and his enablers have dismissed diplomacy and evidence-gathering as not being tough enough. Likewise, our society expects everybody to be strong enough to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and succeed without any kind of government assistance, the result being that our economy and infrastructure are on the verge of collapse.

    It’s about time that someone make a strong and coherent challenge to this dumb wild-west ideal of the rugged individual. We are supposed to be a cooperative society, not a free-for-all mob.

  • Basically this comes down to the perceived misogyny that Clinton and her supporters complain about. I call this the “You Men” factor, because the Clinton supporters I know can’t seem to talk about the race without using this phrase. It’s always “Why are YOU MEN so intimidated by a strong woman?” and “YOU MEN have been running the world long enough!” Clinton’s fans want her to stick it out simply because You Men are telling her to get out of the way.

    It’s no accident that many Clinton fans complain about Obama trying to push her out of the race, despite the fact that Obama has never even hinted at such a thing. For the “You Men” crowd, all men are the same so it doesn’t matter if Obama said it or not.

  • DON’T BE DUPED AGAIN AMERICA !!!

    IT’S ABOUT ELECTABILITY !!!

    Large numbers of BUSH_McCain Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses from early on with the backing and help of the medical and insurance industry. Under the direction of the George Bush, and Karl Rove vote fraud, and vote manipulation machine. Because they feel Barack Obama would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. And they want to stop Hillary Clinton from fixing the HUGE! American, and Global mess they have created. shocking!!! isn’t it. Just gotta love those good old draft dodging, silver spoon Texas boys. Not! 🙁

    You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don’t want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more immoral profits for them-selves off of you, and your children’s suffering.

    With Hillary Clinton you are almost 100% certain to get quality affordable universal health care for everyone very soon. And you are also certain to see major improvements in the economy for everyone.

    The American people face even worse catastrophes ahead than the ones you are living through now. It will take all of the skills, and experience of Hillary Clinton to pull the American people out of this mess we are in. Fortunately fixing up, and cleaning up others incompetence, immoral degeneracy, and mess is what the Clinton’s do very well.

    Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than it shows. And higher than Obama’s. She also leads in the electoral college numbers that you must win to become President in the November national election. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!

    Just look at Oregon for example. Obama won Oregon by about 70,000 votes. But approximately 79,000 Bush republicans switched party’s back in January to vote for Obama in the democratic primary. They are not going to vote for, or support any Democrat in November. Are you DEMOCRATS going to put up with that. Are you that stupid, and weak. The Bush republicans think you are that stupid, and weak.

    As much as 30% of Obama’s primary, and caucus votes are Republicans trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses, and open primaries where it is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating help. Except North Carolina where 35% of the population is African American, and approximately 90% of them block voted for him. African Americans are only approximately 17% of the general population.

    Hillary Clinton has been OUT MANNED! and OUT SPENT! 4 and 5 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous, and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton. This is even more phenomenal when you consider she has been also fighting against the George Bush, Karl Rove vote fraud machine in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses. Hillary Clinton is STUNNING!.

    If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in November he will be slaughtered. That is crystal clear now. Because all of the Republican vote cheating help will suddenly evaporate. And the demographics, and experience are completely against him. All of this vote fraud and Bush republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much stronger candidate than he really is.

    You will have another McGovern catastrophe where George McGovern lost 49 of 50 states. And was the reason the super-delegates were created to keep that from happening again. Don’t let that happen to the party and America again super-delegates. You have the power to prevent it. The only important question now is who can best win in November. And the answer is HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON. That fact is also now crystal clear.

    And YOUNG PEOPLE. DON’T BE DUPED! Think about it. You have the most to lose. As do African Americans. Support Hillary Clinton. She will do her best for all of you. And she will know how to best get it done on day one.

    The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. Everyone needs to throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.

    The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and caucuses.

    Fortunately the Clinton’s have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic, and heroic comebacks of Hillary Clinton’s. Only the Clinton’s are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen. Probably the best there has ever been. 🙂

    “This is not a game” (Hillary Clinton)

    Sincerely

    jacksmith… Working Class 🙂

    p.s. Cynthia Ruccia – I’m with ya baby. All the way. “Clinton Supporters Count Too.”

  • jacksmith is worse than a troll. He’s a spammer who is posting this identical, off-topic comment on multiple threads…probably working to earn his McCain Action Points.

  • It’s condescending to women is all.

    God, I just saw a clip of the 1992 vice-presidential debate: Al Gore, Dan Quayle and James Stockdale. Sigh. Al Gore, America doesn’t deserve you.

  • #37 joey: “Her comments about the RFK deal really had nothing to do with “assassination” as some here are spinning it but was merely a way of saying that things could happen to any candidate that could unexpectedly remove them from the race…”

    I’m curious about your age, joey, because most Obama supporters I talk to who were old enough to remember the 1968 assassinations of MLK and RFK fear a repeat of those tragedies. That’s another reason I believe Clinton wasn’t speaking in the abstract which makes her multiple references to Bobby Kennedy’s assassination reprehensible. Anyway, I’m thinking our perceptions of HRC’s comments are colored by our own life experiences, which is why I’m asking.

  • Please!!! Obama’s campaign was talking about assissination from the very onset of the campaign. Michele was questioned about her worries about possible assissination. Obama asked for secret service because his campaign was worried about assissination.
    Let Hillary speak of RFK in a factual way and Obama yells that Hillary is suggesting assissination to “sick” minds out there.
    Hart was side-lined by adultry issues…fact upon fact in races in the past during elections. The Obama campaign is not going with a full set of wheels on it’s wagon.
    The Obama campaign started the assissination talking point a year ago.

  • Shade Tail up at #44: “Likewise, our society expects everybody to be strong enough to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and succeed without any kind of government assistance, the result being that our economy and infrastructure are on the verge of collapse.”

    Not quite everyone – many of the elected representatives of our society believe that the already rich need lots of help pulling themselves up by poor peoples’ bootstraps, and give them all sorts of tools like the Bankruptcy Act which makes it nearly impossible for the bottom 95% economically of the population to get legal relieve when they fall into serious debt. DLC DINOs pushed that one along, and that’s why Obama made it clear that he doesn’t want to be identified in anyway with the DLC.

  • Episode #324 in Why I Love Libra’s posts:

    She was, by the way, right, when she said it took a village to raise a child. Only, in her case, it’s going to take The Village (DC)…

  • Alack, so late in the discussion.

    Go ahead, Hils; go ahead, take this to Denver. Come convention in Denver, we’re gonna take that big blue bear and . . . .

  • Seems to me that criticism or advise to Hillary brings sexism accusations, even to women like myself.
    Unless you worship the clintons above all else, you are a sexist.
    It is important that democrats do not let themselves be bullied by supporters of either candidate, especially the fringe and rabid ones, or else no one can run the primary like mature adults.
    It is up to the leaders to ignore them and do what is best for the party and the election regardless of the threats and foot stomping.

  • And, reasonable people we are will do the right thing and not run off and vote for McCain.

  • The reason it is so hard to even ask is that Hillary has continuously used class/race/sex based excuses for her losses or her treatment. She has taught her base, or maybe tapped into long held resentments,

    The rally cry seems to be misogyny. It is seen by her supporters everywhere. Apparently only women can dislike Hillary and escape from this label. I really don’t get it though. Just like Obama, she has won nearly every demographic in some states. Some of her supporters even accuse the Obama camp of using code words, which apparently are secretly understood by men, such as periodic.

    But let’s be clear: Hillary has beaten every man in the race except one. A year ago, she was the clear favorite. if misogyny was the true cause of her loss, she would have never enjoyed the lead, ever. Why? Because a year ago everyone knew that there would be other candidates, probably all of them men. A year ago, most democrats could have guessed at least some of the potential rivals.

    A year ago, nobody could have imagined that fellow democratic candidates would be divided into the elite and the common, and if they could have imagined it, nobody would have put Hillary into the common-man category.

    A year ago, nobody could have imagined that any fellow democrat would try to rewrite the rules on a daily basis, or would try to substitute the popular vote for the delegate count, or would divide important states from unimportant ones, big ones from small ones, etc.

    Several months ago Hillary was in second place in the democratic primary. This wasn’t good enough for her. She decided to create her own primary where she was in first place. The only rule is that she ends up winning. Those who have not voted for her are simply not part of her primary race. She dropped out of the democratic primary months ago. The rest of us are just to dumb to realize it. Her goal now is to defeat the democratic candidate in the Spring or Summer, and then go on to defeat the Republican candidate.

  • Joanie says @50:

    Please!!! Obama’s campaign was talking about assissination from the very onset of the campaign. Michele was questioned about her worries about possible assissination. Obama asked for secret service because his campaign was worried about assissination.
    Let Hillary speak of RFK in a factual way and Obama yells that Hillary is suggesting assissination to “sick” minds out there.
    Hart was side-lined by adultry issues…fact upon fact in races in the past during elections. The Obama campaign is not going with a full set of wheels on it’s wagon.
    The Obama campaign started the assissination talking point a year ago.

    I am sorry but that is a complete misappropreation of the Mrs. Obama’s statement, if you don’t see the difference of a wife concerned for the safety of her husband and the callous use of a painful historical incident is wildly different. And for the record the Senator Obama was resistant to the secret service at first. But you seriously can’t deny that it was probably necessary. Since you are aware of historical precedents, I am sure the assasination of young charismatic political figures is a rarity, and poses no serious risk what so ever?

  • Several comments have said Hillary feels that if she doesn’t get the nomination, then she’ll never see a woman president “in her lifetime”.
    If Sen. Clinton lives to be as old as Se. McCain, that would give her, what four or five election cycles where the possibility of a woman being existed?
    Maybe it’s not the possibility of a woman being elected in her lifetime, maybe it’s just not her being that woman.
    But I think she should stay in the race as long as Ron Paul does.

  • Roman X You have been evidently drinking the Obama kool aid. Do you know the Obama’s personally…do you believe everything you hear?? You sound like you are such an authority that you sit at the round table with Michele and Barack.
    I doubt it!!!!!!

  • Well, I’m holding out hope she will ignore all this and keep running. After all, if this keeps up I expect to see her mud wrestling and then driving NASCAR while belcthing after chugging a beer with the fans!

  • Well, the Obama-ites clearly *haven’t* avoided asking her to leave, in the most graphic of terms. I think they, the majority of his young warriors, are so inexperienced and naïve that they forget–or maybe don’t even realize!??–that there’s really no “prize” for winning a nomination. So, they will continue in the most vile and colorful ways they can think of to tell her to take her marbles and go home. As one of the marbles, I say: fine! I’ll go. I think it will be many years before I vote for another Democrat. You win!! Woohoo!! Oh, and save your “good riddance” comments. You people are pitiful, and you’re going to lose in November. Idiots.

  • I’m an Obama supporter.. While I might prefer Clinton drop out, I think it’s wrong to suggest it. Here’s why: Obama will likely get the nomination because he followed the rules, meaning he worked the delegate selection system. Part of that system is Superdelegates. While most everyone, including myself, believe enough Supers will align with Obama to put him over the top, to assume it is a certainty is to assume the Supers are meaningless. I don’t care for the Dems’ nominating system, but this is part of it. Obama is not yet the presumptive nominee. On the other side, McCain is, because he clearly has enough committed delegates to win on the first ballot. Thus, asking Huck and Ron Paul to get lost was appropriate because they *literally* have no chance. Can’t say the same thing for Hillary…yet.

  • Ms. Clinton is already in debt for more than $20 million in this campaign. I think she should stay in the race until she doubles that hole.

  • @ Joanie

    Not sure how you can intuit that from my comments, I am merely stating a reasonable explanation. I don’t have to believe everything I hear. I am capable of wrestling with the googles and getting my news via the “tubes”. Plus I have been lucky and been able to watch the Obamas more closely then most in the country, since he is the Senator of my home state. So maybe I do have a little more insight. And I read the initial articles detailing Mrs. Obama’s concerns about her husband running. She actively tried to dissuade him, by all accounts.

    Now I haven’t been one to pile on Senator Clinton, because I actually do think it was a misstatement and has been blown out of proportion, however it does require a tin ear to think that there aren’t reasons people should be disturbed by what she said.

    So I would ask you the same thing, since you know the Clinton’s so well, of course. How do you know that she was not implying that something untoward could befall Senator Obama? Or worse “wishing it”. You don’t, and you can’t. And I am not implying that she did either. All you can go on is what she has said, and you choose to believe it. So stop with the accusations and Jonestown insinuations.

    Surely you can acknowledge the difference between a wife expressing concern for her husbands safety and someone else making a statement about assassinations as motivation for them to continue running? One is ostensibly rooted in concern, the other is crass at best.

    So I would say if anyone is partaking of the “Kool-aide” it is not I.

    Point of fact though, I do like Kool-aide. Grape to be more precise.

  • @em #61

    I am sorry you feel that some of Obama’s supporters are not as respectful to your candidate as you would like, however tossing insults yourself doesn’t help your cause. Not all of his supporters are especially young, naive, nor politically inexperienced. We just prefered him to her, or felt he ran a better campaign. Why is that such and issue?

  • I agree with RomanX: Some of us felt Obama ran a better campaign than Clinton, and didn’t see the appeal of a person so wrapped up in being tough and valuing loyalty over competence (ahem…Mark Penn…ahem) because frankly, had a bit too much of that over the past eight years.

    I started out an Edwards supporter–and was sad he dropped out prior to our primary. But I read Obama’s issues pages and his book and liked the way he looked at the world. I have been so disappointed in our government over the last eight years, and I desperately want to have the hope that we can get it back. Nothing seemed as craven and pathetic to me as the attack on Iraq in 2003–it showed America to be weakly led and so frightened of the world that we’d just try to crush and kill whomever we could. (A similar form of cowardice lies in our insistence on torture.) Obama’s remark that he wanted to change the mindset thad led to the Iraq War is what finally won me over.

    And, as a woman, can I just say how offensive it is to me that Clinton (and her supporters) keep claiming the call for her to quit the race is due to misogyny? It undermines when there is real misogyny, such as women who are paid less for equal work or are dismissed as overly emotional by the courts and police when complaints are made about stalkers or abusive boyfriends. Misogyny is serious; running a sloppy campaign because you felt entitled to a post *no one* is entitled to (except perhaps Al Gore) is not in that category.

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