Citing ‘strained’ relations, Obama breaks from his congregation

It looks like the Rev. Michael Pfleger’s guest sermon at Trinity United Church of Christ last weekend was one step too far. The priest, known as a “radical gadfly,” went after Hillary Clinton from Trinity’s pulpit, accusing her of harboring a sense of entitlement because she is white.

Pfleger later apologized, and Obama publicly expressed his deep disappointment at “Father Pfleger’s divisive, backward-looking rhetoric,” but this, following months of controversy surrounding the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, ultimately led the Obama family to withdraw from the Trinity congregation yesterday.

Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) and his wife, Michelle, announced yesterday that they have left their longtime Chicago church, Trinity United Church of Christ, after racially charged comments by a visiting pastor last week dragged them into yet another controversy over religion and race.

The resignation came Friday in a letter Obama sent to the church’s head pastor, the Rev. Otis Moss III.

“We make this decision with sadness. Trinity was where I found Christ, where we were married and where our children were baptized,” the letter said. “But as you know, our relations with Trinity have been strained by the divisive statements of Reverend Wright, which sharply conflict with our own view.”

Obama held a news conference last night during a campaign stop in Aberdeen, S.D., after news of the resignation began to spread.

The Democratic presidential candidate said he and his wife had been discussing leaving the church since his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., made a theatrical and controversial April 28 appearance at the National Press Club.

It’s worth noting that Obama is leaving the Trinity congregation, not the United Church of Christ. I almost expect some nut to argue, “A ha! This means he’s leaving Christianity to become a Muslim!” Obama may have been anticipating such foolishness when he told reporters yesterday, “Our faith remains strong. I suspect that we will find another church home for our family.”

By way of Greg Sargent, here’s the video of Obama’s press statement yesterday.

Obama is withdrawing as a church member, but he rejected the suggestion that he denounce the church. “I’m not denouncing the church, and I’m not interested in people who want me to denounce the church,” he said in response to a question. “It’s not a church worthy of denouncing.”

This should, at least in theory, help resolve the political nature of the controversy (it should also help other Trinity congregants stop having to deal with media inquiries about their church). Republicans will no doubt argue that Obama should have withdrawn from the congregation years ago, but the next time the right hammers the senator on one of Wright’s sermons, he’ll be able to say Wright is “the former pastor of my former church.”

You know what has been lost in all the brou-ha-ha over Obama’s church? The fact that were, when and if at all to practice one’s faith is a deeply personal decision. I suspect that Obama’s decision to leave Trinity was indeed a difficult one for him to make. The GOP can carp all they want about him just trying to distance himself from controversy, but i think he has handld this difficult situation with a lot of class.

  • Obama is going to be moving to a new address in January anyway. He’ll need a church near Pennsylvania Avenue for the next eight years.

  • Good move to keep the church members away from harassment by the press. Good move politically.

    And what Dale said.

  • They’re having a hategasm over this at the Corner. It’s ALL TRINITY CHURCH ALL THE TIME, again, over there. What else have they got?

  • What the Hell is wrong with that church? (I use the term very loosely here) Seems like prejudice and hatred of white people are a staple over there. Should they loose their tax free status. I think so and made to register as a hate political group. The same goes for that Catholic priest. Why is J. Wright still the head pastor over there? Retiring?…He another deception by this hate monger.

  • This guy never ceases to amaze me – He is campaigning! He’d probably divorce Michelle if THE PEOPLE said it was right. Unbelievable! How can he throw his “long-time friend” and minister under the bus – so to speak – it is reprehensible and appalling. This man will do whatever is necessary to win the nomination. God only knows what would happen if he is elected. Maybe Rev Wright would be his Secretary of State or maybe defense secretary and Pfleger can be his Goodwill Ambassidor.

  • Once again the media won’t to blame Obama for what some else said.Why didn’t the Archdiocese reject and denounce all the Pedophilia priests? No one, I mean no one ever mentions this. The people of the catholic church are not blmed by the media for the acts of their priests, so why blame Obama for what some one said.20 years is nothing compared to centuries of child molestation..

  • That’s quite a little post you’ve got there, Varoadrunner. Within three sentences you go from “Obama is reprehensively disloyal to his minister by breaking with him” to “Obama would probably put the minister he reprehensively cut off into his cabinet.”

    Did that total contradiction hurt much when you peed it out?

  • From the remarks Obama gave, I can tell this was a very heartfelt and difficult decision. The Q&A afterwards revealed that Obama “gets” his Christianity and made me even more sure that he is the right candidate for me. Here’s the particular quote:

    “I don’t consider Christianity a place to avoid the real problems in the world. Now, my faith tells me that we have to engage in those real problems in the world. And, you know, sometimes, when you are engaging in the real problems that are out there is going to be some conflict and some controversy. And I would expect that I would have a pastor who would not shy away from speaking out on those issues when he or she saw fit. Now, but I also think that it’s got to be – you know, it’s a very personal decision for Michelle and I to find somebody who reflects a wisdom that ultimately is about reconciliation and unifying people and expressing a spirit of mercy along with a spirit of justice, a spirit of understanding along with a sense of righteous indignation about injustice.”

    Rev. Wright and Father Pfleger (who was not his priest, but a friend) do practice social justice, they are both well known in the Chicago community for that. But they also seem to have a problem with temperment. That’s probably why Obama gave the “reconciliation and unifying people” part of his statement. JMHO

  • I don’t understand what all the controversy over Sen. Obama’s pastor’s is really all about. As a catholic it has been well documented that the church has been plagued by pedophile priest. Sen. McCain just got though denouncing two evangelical pastors who aren’t too much different from the rest of the field of evangelicals. I once went to a mass where the priest was giving a sermon bombed out of his gourde. There have been numerous sex scandals in the churches even as depicted in the classic novel ” The Scarlet Letter”. Church is not a sanctuary for saints, but rather more of a sanitarium for sinners. If church is about the pastors then we are all in trouble. The focus should be on worship.

  • I’m an Obama supporter but this church stuff has really troubled me. Not the things said by this pastor or another, but for political reasons. Obama should have known this (and more) was coming and had a better response for it. It seems politically naive. That’s a quality that’s a bit troubling in a president. If there really is a clip of Michelle railing against “whitey” out there, as claimed by Larry Johnson, I sure hope they’re ready for it.

  • What I think is so telling is how this article acts as if a man standing in a church that a presidential candidate has belonged to for a long time attacking another Democrat and calling them a white supremist is not news worthy. When a racist statement is uttered by anyone and the congregation goes wild like Obama’s did I think the American people have a right to know if he was there on Sunday would he have shouted Amen and stood up or would he have sat quietly or would he have stormed out?

    When a virtually unknown and untested person runs for the most important office in the world we have a duty to find out what we can about him. If this man was white and that priest was making racist comments about blacks there would be hell to pay. Apparently the fact that this minister is being racist against white people means its nothing. The fact that Father P has been the recipient of Obama’s help politically and financially when he was a state Senator should matter since it is all we have to judge him by.

    I know it makes it easier for Obama’s campaign to just tell us over and over how he didn’t vote for the war, which is admirable, but this is about choosing the next President of the United States. It has become very obvious to me after eight painful years that this is a decision we should all take very seriously. Look where we are now because of our president. The people around the President who have been his constituents and friends can and often do benefit from his presidency even if it is at the expence of the rest of us. History should have taught us that.

    The press should do a better job of digging for answers to important questions and leave the campaigning to the individual campaigns. What the American people need is the facts.

  • Apparently the fact that this minister is being racist against white people means its nothing.

    Hey Billie, clearly it did mean something. As Elvis said, The Corner is having a “hategasm” about the incident (best word ever, btw) and Obama just left his church over it. Instead of mindlessly repeating “The American People have a right to know whether or not Obama agrees with Wright,” think for a second. How do you propose the American people find this out?

    All you’re doing is using unverifiable accusations to stirr up old hate, fear, and uncertainty to advance your own political aims. So why don’t you go find the information you’re looking for instead of insisting that someone else needs to do it.

    Smiley, what would a better response have been? If he had left before the Wright incident, the story goes, “Obama left his church that he was at for 20 years. Why? Look at his crazy pastor. Political expediency!” Obama is a great politician.

  • I’m a white woman. I am not a religious person and was raised in an atheist household. I personally don’t have any trouble with anything reported from Obama’s church. I simply don’t view it as racist to complain about our white-dominated political system or our white-dominated culture. I think people who view Wright as racist don’t fundamentally understand what racism is really about.

    But I also realize that I have a pretty unique perspective than most other white Americans. I’ve spent the past 10 years living in mostly black neighborhoods. I have black friends and neighbors. I’ve been to black churches. I recognize that the neighborhood black church is sometimes a safe place to vent about institutional historical and CURRENT racist conditions in this country. I know it might offend some white people who don’t live in cities and/or might not know many black people to hear any black people complain about white culture– but that alone doesn’t make them racists. Wright does represent a bitterness that exists among older black people in this country– what I don’t understand is why anyone is surprised that people who lived BEFORE the civil rights era would be resentful? That they wouldn’t truly believe a lot of the radical changes that have happened in a few short decades? Try and imagine living through all that and coming out on the other side and not being resentful.

    Regardless, I think Obama had to quit Trinity for two reasons– because they’re literally being harassed by the media and has had death threats. They never signed up to be in the limelight. Also, because it’s a distraction and it’s not what he’s all about. His age and background are pretty key– Obama is not an old black man. I think the fact that he is bi-racial also gives him a pretty unique perspective. He wants to build on all of the very significant advances that have happened in the past few decades. I think Obama is about looking forward and not looking back.

  • A conversation that I hope would come out of this is that ministers, priests, rabbis, clerics and other leaders of faith are all too human — and the words that come out of their mouths are not the words of a divine being but the all-too-human musings of people with varying degrees of religious inspiration. When Benny Hinn wants a new airplane, James Dobson says God has a chosen candidate, a mullah issues a fatwah about who to kill or a priest says condoms are bad, these are the words of a person and not a god. We need to bring to light that divine beings don’t micromanage the world and anything that sounds too temporal is probably not the word of a god.

    But in this debate about Trinity Church is also lost that the folks in the congregation have brains too. Not every word a religious leaders utters is taken to heart by the congregation. Thank God for that. People can know when they are being manipulated by a religious person, and plenty of devout people can discern when the words they have told are coming out of a leaders interests and not a divine one.

  • To the Media:

    Senator Obama is frightening to people in my community. Please keep investigating and reporting on the following: Trinity United Church of Christ, Tony Rezko of of Chicago, Louis Farrakhan, William Ayers, Black Liberation Theology and lastly,how Muslims will view Obama from other countries.

    The media needs to bring all candidates relationships and family issues to the forefront.

    Most recently senator Obama referred to 57 states in one of his stump speeches. He has denied that he is a Muslim, but according to Fox news and other media outlets he is viewed by Muslims as a Muslim.

    Obama refers to 57 states because OIC are the number of states over four continents of the Muslim world.
    http://www.OIC-OIC.org reports the following: About OIC

    The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) is the second largest inter-governmental organization after the United Nations which has membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The Organization is the collective voice of the Muslim world and ensuring to safeguard and project the interests of the Muslim world in the spirit of promoting international peace

    Fox News Sunday, Williams claimed Obama’s Muslim father “presents a problem”
    Jan.21 edition of Fox News Sunday, National Public Radio seniorFox News contributor, Juan Williams, noted that Sen. Obama “comes from a father who was a Muslim” and added that “given that we’re at war with Muslim extremists, that presents a problem.”

    Twenty years attending Trinity United Church of Christ and relationships with any of the above characters, would indeed impact anyone.

    Too late Obama.

  • Steve, I think you found your moron at 16.

    Also, dumbass, Obama’s parents were non-religious. But of course the facts are not your area of interest. Have fun sitting in the basement with the lube and your fear-fantasies of SCARY BLACK PEOPLEZ.

  • NB said:
    Smiley, what would a better response have been?

    I don’t know. I’m not a political operative. Maybe I’m wrong but I just thought they acted like they were taken by surprise. They shouldn’t have been (and maybe they weren’t but it just seemed like it to me).

  • I wish I could share your optimism that his leaving this congregation will necessarily result in a cessation of YouTube clips of pastors (past present an future) speaking there. It seems to me just as likely that those who have tried to tar Hon. Sen. Obama will make no distinction about whether he was either present when the speeches were made or a part of the congregation. The claim will be ‘twenty years in the pews of the same church….”

  • I wish I could share your optimism that his leaving this congregation will necessarily result in a cessation of YouTube clips of pastors (past present an future) speaking there. It seems to me just as likely that those who have tried to tar Hon. Sen. Obama will make no distinction about whether he was either present when the speeches were made or a part of the congregation. The claim will be ‘twenty years in the pews of the same church….”

  • What kind of candidate has to begin his Fall campaign by leaving his own church?

    Why should his church be receiving death threats — most churches don’t.

    Why should there be a double standard that says it is OK for black people to attribute their problems to “whitey,” a phrase referring to another group of people by the color of their skin, but not OK for white people to attribute their problems to “black people?” If it is wrong for one group, it is wrong for the other.

    We all know what Obama would do if he were seated in the congregation during one of those sermons. He would sit quietly. We know this because that is exactly what he did when this whole controversy arose. He said little and hoped it would go away by itself. Then he said a little, denying knowledge of the content of his pastor’s sermons. When that lie became implausible, he issued a statement of support for the pastor and attributed his remarks to old age and frustration (we heard that term again later). When his pastor didn’t like being patronized that way, didn’t like the mealy-mouthed lack of spine shown by his mentee, Obama was forced to disavow him, reluctantly. Now we see the same problem arising with another liberation theologist Obama has supported in the past. Obama wishes to distance himself from the problem, not protect the church, but protect his own campaign prospects, so he quits his church. There is little to find admirable in this whole sequence. If he were truly put off by any of this, he would have quit years ago, after the novelty of immersion in African American experience wore off. But, there is political advantage in being affiliated with a church that gives him more credibility with his African American constituents. By leaving reluctantly, he makes it appear he is being forced to cut them lose. Unfortunately, he also makes it appear that he is incapable of being decisive and not truly put off by the racism of his own church. A man who does not abhor racism when it comes from people who look like him, but hates it in others, is not a person fit to be the president of ALL of the people, who encompass a diversity he should have been teaching his congregation to embrace, not sitting quietly while they spewed hate (euphemistically called frustration). This man should not be our president because he thinks bigotry is A-OK when it comes from someone with a dark skin.

    Any other presidential candidate who did what Obama has done would be out of the race by now. Why isn’t Obama?

  • No Grampy Points for you, Varoadrunner (#6). Perhaps you’ll find yourself less obviously identified as a mouthbreathing moron if you limit your virtual travels from mommy’s basement to visits at Free Republic and Little Green Footballs, which are more your speed.

  • He al from NJ – thanks for your clear demonstration of the fact that computers are now so user-friendly that mouthbreathing bipeds lacking frontal lobes and opposable thumbs like you can use them just as well as real people. Of course, the big difference is that real people make sense with their posts…

  • If that church is in fact a racist church, then clearly Obama hates the people who raised him. [/eyesrolling]

    It also seems like a lot of white people feel there’s no reason for some black people to have a bit of an attitude about race relations in this country. It’s not a perfectly symmetrical situation people.

  • As usual Obama doesn’t do the right thing until he is backed into a corner and it is going to cost him
    votes.
    Big deal he FINALLY resigned from the church.
    What is to stop him from rejoining the very same
    church if he gets elected. Afterall, we see he is a
    man of excuses and spin and nothing more.
    I fully believe he will rejoin the church because his
    wife’s university thesis (which is available online)
    is full of Rev Wright’s beliefs. It’s as if the Rev.
    held her pen in her hand and guided it on the
    pages.

  • Nice to see the nutjobs coming out of the woodwork for this one.

    You’re all absolutely right — what goes on at Obama’s church will definitely have a direct impact on whether we stay in Iraq, whether the economy is fixed, whether the environmental crisis is solved, and all the rest. It’s a direct straight line from what Obama’s former pastor’s guest host’s brother’s visiting cousin says at Trinity United Church and what happens with these issues that will actually affect our lives as Americans.

    Sweet Jesus, grow the fuck up.

  • I’m sure this was a very tough decision for Obama, but it was probably a smart move in the long run. No other candidate has to answer for everything said at his church, and it was becoming too much of a distraction and a liability. Fox News was camped out in front of the church, harassing people as they go to pray.

    I’m sure Obama will find a great church in Washington D.C., where he will (I hope) be living for the next eight years. I’m sure Bill Clinton could give him some recommendations once they finally reconcile. Trinity is not a racist church, they are a liberal church that sometimes speaks unspoken truths in an angry-sounding way, and that just won’t play in today’s politics.

    Anyway, good move by Obama. Now let’s get back to talking about the issues – John McCain and George W. Bush.

  • #16: Oh, is that what the “57 state” uproar is on the right? Good grief, the man just misspoke.

    Thanks for the information on the OIC. You quoted their mission:

    “The Organization is the collective voice of the Muslim world and ensuring to safeguard and project the interests of the Muslim world in the spirit of promoting international peace”

    Promoting international PEACE????? Muslims want to promote international PEACE????? OMG, I thought they were all terr’ists. /snark

    The right has no shame.

  • Existenz said:
    …they are a liberal church that sometimes speaks unspoken truths in an angry-sounding way.

    Except for the “God damn America” out-of-context stuff, I’ve always though the objections to things said in the TUCC were more about tone than content.

  • 20 years sitting, with his family in an anti-American, racist, black liberation church. Now, Obama supporters are trying to make us believe it’s not an important issue. Well, it goes directly to what Obama believes, his character, how he sees America, and much more. And, enough with the thin response of what about Hagee? These extremist religious associates were not merely endorsements, Obama was deeply involved with these scary people for over 20 years. The fact that Obama finally quit the church, obviously for political expediency, only means that Obama has little integrity, and will do or say anything to get elected.

  • #14 Zoe and #15 petorado: Thanks for sharing your comments. Both interesting, thoughtful and right on.

    We should all try walking in another’s shoes before being so quick to judge.

    #16. After Obama is elected, I hope the people in your community all will come out from under your beds (since he frightens you so) and realize that he’s a man who loves his country and his God, who will do the best he can to serve the people of the USA. You could start being less afraid now by not reading the lies on the crazy rightwing sites nor the emails that are passed from person to person with anyone bothering to verify if they are true. That is blatently dishonest and a disservice to both the person being lied about and those promoting them.

    Here’s a suggestions. Go to http://www.snopes.com, click on Politics, then Barack Obama. (Snopes checks out rumors, etc.) Look and see how many of the emails on Obama floating around out there are not true (hint: most). Go ahead and read each entry. Snopes will tell you what is true and what is a lie. It won’t hurt and you might learn something. I’m serious, btw.

  • Howard said:
    …Obama was deeply involved with these scary people for over 20 years.

    And then Howard came along and proved my point.

  • Ok, it’s impossible to distiguish between right-wing trolls and Hillary supporters anymore. Why don’t they just come out of the closet and swtch party registration of Republican already? Come on, show some honesty.

  • And what did his pastor say that was so horrible anyway? The whole freaking world with a single exception of white american people knows very well that things he said are mostly spot on.

  • when obama was in the church, the righties tied to paint him as anti-american racist.

    Now that he’s left the church, he’s a contemptible opportunist, shameless panderer and a typical flip-floppin’ Democrat.

    For all you a-holes who decided to reject Obama the nanosecond he announced his intention to run, he can’t win for losing. He could save a bus load of nuns from a head-on collision, you’d claim it was done for political reasons. It’s kinda sorta the reason why you’re all so laughably pathetic.

  • It has been fascinating that all three major candidates had ‘Pastor Disaster’ problems, but the important one has been over-looked. I was going to defend Pastor Wright, but zoe has done it perfectly. And let’s face it, it was fun to watch McCain squirm as more and more Hageeisms and pieces of Parsley came out — but realistically no one can claim that they represented McCain’s thinking, just a desperate and stupid attempt by him to get ‘pew cred.’

    But nobody has focused in on Doug Coe and “The Family.” (Except for Jeff Sharlet, ‘dogemperor,’ and the wonderful folks at Talk2Action.) And not only does his history show Coe to be a positive danger, but I think that a side effect of her time there is the best explanation for at least some of Hillary’s actions during the campaign.

    Hillary’s ‘companions’ in her (sex-segregated — despite her supposed feminism) prayer group included the following. The wife of James Baker — yes, that James Baker — whose own history — particularly her tie in with the attempt to censor music — is also worth noting. The wife of Jack Kemp. The wife of Sen. Ben Nelson. And the more obscure anti-Union “Christian business leader’ Ellen Baake.

    [For a full run-down on these people, check out http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/4/7/132522/6632 — I wish I were better at giving HTML links. And for those of you who don’t recognize the name ‘dogemperor’ she is a walkaway from one of the more truly horrifying radical religious groups, and probably understands their tactics as well as anyone. Another important source is the MOTHER JONES article by Sharlet that really broke the story. That’s available at
    http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html%5D

    Why is this important, especially now that Hillary has become a pathetic joke to most people? Well, she’s stll a Senator — and she still has the reputation of being the ‘Radical Clinton’ that she came to Washington with. And few of her supporters — Mary, ya listenin? — realize some of the projects she has supported.

    To quote from the MOTHER JONES article:

    Unlikely partnerships have become a Clinton trademark. Some are symbolic, such as her support for a ban on flag burning with Senator Bob Bennett (R-Utah) and funding for research on the dangers of video games with Brownback and Santorum. But Clinton has also joined the gop on legislation that redefines social justice issues in terms of conservative morality, such as an anti-human-trafficking law that withheld funding from groups working on the sex trade if they didn’t condemn prostitution in the proper terms. With Santorum, Clinton co-sponsored the Workplace Religious Freedom Act; she didn’t back off even after Republican senators such as Pennsylvania’s Arlen Specter pulled their names from the bill citing concerns that the measure would protect those refusing to perform key aspects of their jobs—say, pharmacists who won’t fill birth control prescriptions, or police officers who won’t guard abortion clinics.

    Clinton has championed federal funding of faith-based social services, which she embraced years before George W. Bush did; Marci Hamilton, author of God vs. the Gavel, says that the Clintons’ approach to faith-based initiatives “set the stage for Bush.” Clinton has also long supported the Defense of Marriage Act, a measure that has become a purity test for any candidate wishing to avoid war with the Christian right.

    Liberal rabbi Michael Lerner, whose “politics of meaning” Clinton made famous in a speech early in her White House tenure, sees the senator’s ambivalence as both more and less than calculated opportunism. He believes she has genuine sympathy for liberal causes—rights for women, gays, immigrants—but often will not follow through. “There is something in her that pushes her toward caring about others, as long as there’s no price to pay. But in politics, there is a price to pay.”

    and one other comment that should set off some warning bells, given the source — again from the MOTHER JONES article:

    Senator Brownback understood the temptation. He used to hate Clinton so much, he told us, that the hate hurt. Then came the Clintons’ 1994 National Prayer Breakfast appearance with Mother Teresa, who upbraided the couple for their pro-choice views. Bill made no attempt to conceal his anger, but Hillary took it and smiled. Brownback remembers thinking, “Now, there’s gotta be a great lesson here.” He didn’t know what it was until Clinton got to the Senate and joined him in supporting DeLay’s Day of Reconciliation resolution following the 2000 election, a proposal described by its backers as a call to “pray for our leaders.” Now, Brownback considers Clinton “a beautiful child of the living God.”

    I think her association with this group might explain quite a bit about the events of the past 16 years. (It might be fanciful to argue that her tie-up with the group — and the conservative Christian attitude towards sex and “sodomy’ — even heterosexual ‘sodomy’ — was the reason why “Bill had to turn to Monica for his blowjobs ” but it is certainly a possibility.) More importantly, it does explain why Hillary has come down on the anti-liberal side of issues such as flag-burning, DOMA, and possibly even AUFI.

    But I see it as a reasonable explanation for the vagaries and persistence of Hillary’s campaign. No, I don’t see her as a puppet of Coe, directly. I doubt if she would have put herself in that position, and Coe’s record shows him as being much more subtle than this.

    Imagine (yes, this is speculation, but reasonable) that Coe noticed, as we all did, that, in 2004 Hillary was by far the most likely candidate to be the Democratic nominee, and that she’d probably win the election. Then imagine that, over these years — and possibly before — her ‘prayer partners,’ ‘prayer warriors’ and friends from the prayer breakfasts began telling her, over and over, that “God has chosen you to be the President — the first woman President.” (Why? So she can suitably thank ‘Him’ and do ‘His’ work in the White House, and not do things he wouldn’t like — like granting gays full rights or working for abortion rights. And if you think this is unlikely, study the career of Rep.Tony — Toby? — Hall who changed completely on these issues after being involved with ‘the Family.’)

    Imagine you are an authentic believer in conservative Christianity — and she always has been. (to quote the MJ article again

    Two decades later, while Bill was campaigning for president, Clinton picked up that theme once more, displaying a theological depth that conservative believers could appreciate. In an interview with the United Methodist Reporter, she expressed regret that her church had focused too much on social gospel concerns in the ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s, “to the exclusion of personal faith and growth.” The spirit, believe theological conservatives, matters more than the flesh. Clinton added that she was happy to see her liberal denomination becoming more salvation centered in the ’90s.

    Imagine you have been hearing these Iago-whispers in your ear — and believe them. Then along comes someone who is actually beating you — and thus frustrating ‘God’s Will.” (It happened to be Obama, but I think the fact that the successful challenger was a black man had little to do with her reaction.)

    You have to be convinced — unless you lose faith in this god or your ‘prayer companions’ — that God will not let his will be frustrated. Either some disaster — assassination or an ‘October surprise’ — will come along so that “His Will Be Done” or that, at the last minute he will ‘work on the hearts of the superdelegates.’

    So, ‘dropping out’ or accepting Obama’s victory is rejecting ‘God’s Plan for you.’ And if you have to bend the truth a little, or use arguments that even you know are nonsense — well, it is a minor sin, but it is being done ‘for God’s sake.’

    Again, pure speculation, but I think it fits the facts.

  • What happened this weekend is so extordinary and controversial one can get over whelmed with awe and shock. In the middle of a vote Obama would dare to separate himself from his Church is either a bold move, or extremely stupid.

    And more than half the delegation will trust this man to pick a Supreme Court Justice? America is really in a tail spin.

    Especially to say he resigns from his church. Why should one want resign from any church? Or is this preliminary to what really is coming, for Obama to resign from the election which Tim Russert, Keith Olbermann and Chris Mathews don’t even want to suggest. I think Obama is scared of something. Why even send a message to resign from a church? Simply accept the apology that was offered and be done with it.

    Ladies and Gentleman of America there is a huge pile of political bomb shells that Obama is sitting on. Here, the Mainstream Media is waiting ready to expose Obama for the GOP, for McCain. As expressed by others in this comment section there are huge political and money connections with Obama that are kept silent. Besides the enormous Republican support Obama has received to be able to stay ahead with delegates. Actually it is asinine for Obama to loose in California and Massachusetts yet have those delegates support Obama.

    Isn’t it something the way Tim Russert goes on a rant of saying it is over for Hillary Clinton. No way will Hillary get the nomination, the math is not there. Well not so Mr. Russert, it is not up to Mainstream Media to define the math. In fact Hillary won a substantial issue with the total needed to be 2118. Here, America we have in your face Tim Russert totally, totally, said it would be over this weekend, when indeed the math was moved. what an idiot.

    Something special is happening here, Where MSNBC thought Hillary was going to demonized Obama and tries to destroy him before The Democratic Convention. Well it is not happening, and the media is going to have to play out the rest of the campaign till convention time. For me Hillary has the nomination. Either as Vice President or President in all reality, Hillary is in the driver seat.

    Russert leaves out a serious issue to America and shows his personal bias in this whole scenario. Actually the whole show, all day, is loaded against Hillary. For me this only shows what vibes come across every day every moment. From the time Chris Mathews ran those clips of Hillary being a “Bitch” in one of McCains political fixed messages to Olbermann trying to accuse Hillary of conjuring an assaination for Obama by referring to Bobby Kennedy’s assaination as a historical political sign post was the ugliest form of contextual extraction and crap slinging anyone could do. Here, in fact it is Teddy Kennedy himself who puts the JFK target on Obama’s back specifically endorsing Obama as the next JFK. Here, no debate on that as to why would Kennedy do that? Why not be low level about it. Hillary never endorsed Obama as the next JFK. For me, Obama is not like JFK. JFK would likely never resign from his church. JFk would embrace the problem rather than dump the church. Obama is certainly no community organizer.

    For me, it is enlighting to watch the Democrats in debate, because anyone that Chris Mathews endorses highly and likely is nothing more than a Lieberman type turn coat actually a Republican parading around as a Democrat. This is what I want to see exposed in the convention. Yes those Republicans that can simply raise there hands and declare them selves Democrats that have been screwing up the real Conservative Democratic Party for decades. Go get them Hillary, and God’s Grace be with you.

  • Somethin’s happin’ here,
    What it is ain’t exactly clear,
    There’s a commenter with a half-assed, lame-brained argument over there
    Telling me I have to beware

    I think it’s time we stop!
    Children, what’s that sound?
    Everybody look at that Clinton supporter’s head explode.

    OK. so I’m not a poet.

  • 36.On June 1st, 2008 at 2:24 pm, Prospero said:
    Ok, it’s impossible to distiguish between right-wing trolls and Hillary supporters anymore.

    Good point. And remember at the beginning of the campaign it was right-wing trolls attacking Hillary.

  • What kind of grandson calls his own granny a bigot? Obama showed his true colors with that unkind and unempathetic remark.

    Certainly plenty of black people have had unfortunate experiences with racism and racist people. I have had unfortunate experiences with sexism and sexist men, but I don’t hate all men because of it and I don’t attend a church where men are routinely vilified from the pulpit. Life is too short to see it so one-dimensionally. Plenty of white people have been the victims of crimes committed against them by black people. Are they justified then in hating all black people? Would that be “understandable”? No, it would be unfair stereotyping and it would be counterproductive to recovery from their experience. Giving black people a pass on their entrenched racism against whites is unacceptable in this day, 125 years after the end of slavery and at least 50 years after the major changes enacted as part of the civil rights movement. Today’s African Americans didn’t grow up under Jim Crow. They grew up with a sense of grievance that is nourished by churches like Wright’s. It is neither healthy nor understandable and it is doing a disservice to many people in the black community. That is why MOST black churches are not like Obama’s, although they are still different in many ways from white churches.

    There is something wrong with Obama if he found spiritual comfort and guidance in a church like that. There is something deeply ambivalent about his attitudes toward his mother and grandmother and his own upbringing, something he clearly has not comes to terms with. He is not a man benefitting from experience in two cultures. He is a man who lacks a firm identity and has not resolved the pull of split loyalties. He is confused and that makes him unfit for the presidency, a position of leadership.

    The guy is too damn neurotic to be president. He can resign from his church but he won’t leave his inner conflicts behind and those are things that make him wrong for the job.

    I’d feel better about Obama as a candidate if his white family members were visible in his campaign. I’d feel better if he had larger numbers of other minority groups on his campaign staff (especially Asian and Hispanic). I’d feel better about him if he had taken a principled stand on the furor over his pastor instead of being pushed everyway the wind blew. I’d feel better about him if he hadn’t loaded his campaign tours with every black media celebrity from Oprah to rappers without similar white faces. The man is clearly race conscious and very deliberate in his choices regarding race and he makes the wrong choice, the separationist hater’s choice, every time. The man is not inclusive in any sense of the word.

  • The guy is too damn neurotic to be president.

    Seeing how you’re this site’s resident expert on neuroses and general insanity, that comment is pretty damning.

  • I wish Mary would say something for once that would demonstrate that she’s, in fact, human, and not some kind of talking-point parroting bot. It’s seriously painful to read her. Humans don’t talk like that.

  • Mary, as I asked you to in another thread, I ask you, specifically, to read my post @39. It’s long, even for me, but it uses readily confirmable information. I’d like you to read it, reflect on it, then ask yourself if HRC is the person you think she is.

  • It is shame and cowardly act to hear Barak Huseine Obama has resigned from his church of 20yrs. The resignation is just window dressing to throw dust in the eyes of the people and to prevent attention from his achilles heels. By resigning from Trinity United Church of Christ where the family have worhipped for 20yrs is tantamount to betrayal and equal to betraying the Saviour for 30 shakels but in his case for politics.
    Reverends Wright and Pfleger have portrayed the stuff Obama is made up of. He has listened to such divisive and hate mongering sermons for 20yrs with admiration but now want to distance himself because of political ambition. Let’s check his daily-dairy and compare with the fiery preaching dates of Reverend Wright and Obama would be found wanting.
    This decision of resigning from the church just expose Obama to the fact that he was a passenger in the church or entered the church because of marriage. It brings into pespective Obama’s Moslem heritage. It is clear indication that Obama was never rooted in Christianity, his allegience is with Islam and he must come out of the closet. America wake up, Obama would lie between his teeth to get whatever he wants, let’s crush this evil attempt.

  • Danny, that comment was as smartly argued as it was correctly spelled.

    Get yourself over to McCain HQ to collect your points. Maybe they have a set of Hooked on Phonics CDs you could purchase with them.

  • I don’t think there’s anything that will make you feel better about Obama or, more to the point, yourself, Mary. But with every post, your voice grows fainter and fainter. By Tuesday night you’ll be inaudible.

  • DON’T BE DUPED AGAIN AMERICA !!!

    IT’S ABOUT ELECTABILITY !!!

    Large numbers of BUSH_McCain Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses from early on with the backing and help of the medical and insurance industry. Under the direction of the George Bush, and Karl Rove vote fraud, and vote manipulation machine. Because they feel Barack Obama would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. And they want to stop Hillary Clinton from fixing the HUGE! American, and Global mess they have created. shocking!!! isn’t it. Just gotta love those good old draft dodging, silver spoon Texas boys. Not! 🙁

    You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don’t want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more immoral profits for them-selves off of you, and your children’s suffering.

    With Hillary Clinton you are almost 100% certain to get quality affordable universal health care for everyone very soon. And you are also certain to see major improvements in the economy for everyone.

    The American people face even worse catastrophes ahead than the ones you are living through now. It will take all of the skills, and experience of Hillary Clinton to pull the American people out of this mess we are in. Fortunately fixing up, and cleaning up others incompetence, immoral degeneracy, and mess is what the Clinton’s do very well.

    Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than it shows. And higher than Obama’s. She also leads in the electoral college numbers that you must win to become President in the November national election. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!

    Just look at Oregon for example. Obama won Oregon by about 70,000 votes. But approximately 79,000 Bush republicans switched party’s back in January to vote for Obama in the democratic primary. They are not going to vote for, or support any Democrat in November. Are you DEMOCRATS going to put up with that. Are you that stupid, and weak. The Bush republicans think you are that stupid, and weak.

    As much as 30% of Obama’s primary, and caucus votes are Republicans trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses, and open primaries where it is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating help. Except North Carolina where 35% of the population is African American, and approximately 90% of them block voted for him. African Americans are only approximately 17% of the general population.

    Hillary Clinton has been OUT MANNED! and OUT SPENT! 4 and 5 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous, and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton. This is even more phenomenal when you consider she has been also fighting against the George Bush, Karl Rove vote fraud machine in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses. Hillary Clinton is STUNNING!.

    If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in November he will be slaughtered. That is crystal clear now. Because all of the Republican vote cheating help will suddenly evaporate. And the demographics, and experience are completely against him. All of this vote fraud and Bush republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much stronger candidate than he really is.

    You will have another McGovern catastrophe where George McGovern lost 49 of 50 states. And was the reason the super-delegates were created to keep that from happening again. Don’t let that happen to the party and America again super-delegates. You have the power to prevent it. The only important question now is who can best win in November. And the answer is HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON. That fact is also now crystal clear.

    And YOUNG PEOPLE. DON’T BE DUPED! Think about it. You have the most to lose. As do African Americans. Support Hillary Clinton. She will do her best for all of you. And she will know how to best get it done on day one.

    The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. Everyone needs to throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.

    The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and caucuses.

    Fortunately the Clinton’s have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic, and heroic comebacks of Hillary Clinton’s. Only the Clinton’s are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen. Probably the best there has ever been. 🙂

    “This is not a game” (Hillary Clinton)

    Sincerely

    jacksmith… Working Class 🙂

    p.s. Cynthia Ruccia – I’m with ya baby. All the way. “Clinton Supporters Count Too.”

  • I’d feel better about Obama as a candidate if his white family members were visible in his campaign.

    You just gave yourself away Mary.

    The guy is too damn neurotic to be president. He can resign from his church but he won’t leave his inner conflicts behind and those are things that make him wrong for the job.

    As a psychology professor, I can say with confidence that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

  • Fortunately the Clinton’s have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic, and heroic comebacks of Hillary Clinton’s. Only the Clinton’s are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen. Probably the best there has ever been. 🙂

    This is getting weirder and weirder. Get a grip.

  • Like your post purp (Benton)*** But maybe you should reread all that Obama said when he went courting the Christian vote explaining why he was a Christian and not a Muslim and ask yourself the same question you are asking Mary about Obama.

    These people who call others names and right wing trolls when they disagree with what they have to say…isn’t that the behavior of republicans…name calling and smearing the messenger rather than the message? It’s hateful behavior and authoritarian condescension to tell people to go post somewhere else ’cause you don’t like them to disagree.

    I resent the attitude that we are electing dictators or something other than representatives of us, who are answerable to the dictates of the democratic party and our platform. Whoever we nominate is not going to go out there on their own and enact personally selfish policies…they are to represent us and we are deciding which person we believe to be most effective in doing that. The key words here are “most effective” as either would be effective in doing the will of the party…you know…us. It’s not Obama’s party…it’s not Clinton’s party…it is our party and neither candidate is going to be out there doing things against what our party wants on the whole.

    The number two issue in ’06 was corruption in government and I’m for the candidate who promises to bring accountability not only “back” to government but to the government that lacked it. Once we get the DoJ back it should follow that those who have abused their office will be held accountable. I want to see our federal government de-nazified. In the last 8yrs we have nearly lost our democracy due to republican rule so it is imperative that we put a dem in the WH and dem majorities in the House and Senate (we don’t need a 60 vote veto proof majority in the senate with a dem president). Turning this country around and restoring our democracy will require a huge effort and all the bickering over which dem candidate it will be is secondary to making sure it is a dem. Neither of these candidates are that progressive or that liberal but they both are a good start and far superior to McCain. Thank God most in or party know this and haven’t taken their eye off the ball. Kucinich/Edwards in ’08 or whoever the dem nominee turns out to be..

  • jacksh*t, er, jacksmith said:
    “Obama won Oregon by about 70,000 votes”

    That’s at least the second time you’ve gotten that wrong. He won by over 108,000 votes. Where did you get that 79,000 Rs moved to the Dems to vote for Obama? And so what if they did? Maybe they’re disgruntled with the R party. Did someone poll them all? Someone reputable, I mean.

    Oregon is a blue state, not as blue as some (we’re an independent minded bunch), but I’d be shocked if Obama didn’t carry us in November. Heck, jack, didn’t you read that 75,000 people showed up to see Obama in Portland a few weeks ago? 75,000!

  • I’m wondering if all here who are questioning Obama’s decision, calling it politically expedient, or lying, or throwing his church under a bus, or whatever, have listened to or read his explanation and the Q&A that followed. Doubt it.

    Which is why you don’t deserve any further explanation from the reality-based people here.

    Mockery, maybe… but not rational explanation, because you are not rational people. Why should we waste our time?

  • Comments are closed.