The heart of ‘reality-based’ thinking

Barack Obama sat down with the Wall Street Journal’s Bob Davis and Amy Chozick’s yesterday to talk about economic policy in considerable detail. There are plenty of interesting exchanges, but I was especially fond of Obama’s remarks about empiricism.

The Journal asked about what role Bob Rubin might play in an Obama administration, and Obama noted that he likes to hear competing ideas from Rubin to Bob Reich to “folks in between.” When the Journal asked if he’s willing to give Reich “another shot,” Obama said:

“I tend to be eclectic. I do think we’re in a different time in 2008 than we were in 1992. The thing I think people should feel confident in is that I’m going to make these judgments not based on some fierce ideological pre-disposition but based on what makes sense. I’m a big believer in evidence. I’m a big believer in fact. You know, if somebody shows me we can do something better through a market mechanism, I’m happy to do it. I have no vested interest in expanding government or setting up a program just for the sake of setting one up. It’s too much work.

“On the health-care front, for example, if I actually believed that just providing a tax cut to everybody would solve the problem of lack of health insurance and cure health-care inflation, I’d say great, that’s a nice way to do it. It prevents a lot of headaches. But I’ve seen no evidence that the kinds of policies John McCain puts forward would actually work.

“If I saw strong evidence that an additional $300 billion in tax cuts that John has proposed — without a clear way of paying for it — would actually boost economic growth and productivity, I’d be happy to take a look at that evidence. But I haven’t seen that. It’s all conjecture.”

I realize my perspective is clouded in part by nearly eight years of mind-numbing disappointment in a president and his team who, as one White House official once boasted, create their “own reality,” but the kind of pragmatic thinking Obama outlined to the WSJ is not only heartening, it helps reinforce one of the key differences between the contemporary ideologies of the left and right.

I’m reminded of a terrific articles Jonathan Chait wrote a couple of years ago (but which I can no longer find online).

We’re accustomed to thinking of liberalism and conservatism as parallel ideologies, with conservatives preferring less government and liberals preferring more. The equivalency breaks down, though, when you consider that liberals never claim that increasing the size of government is an end in itself. Liberals only support larger government if they have some reason to believe that it will lead to material improvement in people’s lives. Conservatives also want material improvement in people’s lives, of course, but proving that their policies can produce such an outcome is a luxury, not a necessity.

The contrast between economic liberalism and economic conservatism, then, ultimately lies not only in different values or preferences but in different epistemologies. Liberalism is a more deeply pragmatic governing philosophy — more open to change, more receptive to empiricism, and ultimately better at producing policies that improve the human condition — than conservatism.

Now, liberalism’s pragmatic superiority wouldn’t matter to a true ideological conservative any more than news about the medical benefits of pork (to pick an imaginary example) would cause a strictly observant Jew to begin eating ham sandwiches. But, if you have no particular a priori preference about the size of government and care only about tangible outcomes, then liberalism’s aversion to dogma makes it superior as a practical governing philosophy.

Obama didn’t mention Chait, but Chait’s description of liberal pragmatism mirrors Obama’s comments about how he approaches policies like healthcare.

McCain says, for example, that he wants to extend more coverage to more people, including those with pre-existing conditions. But that, of course, would require imposing government regulations on insurance companies. Regulations are wrong, not because they don’t work, but because they conflict with conservative ideology. McCain’s policy can’t conflict with the ideology, so those with pre-existing conditions are left behind. It’s a simple matter involving priorities — political philosophy over political pragmatism. Obama’s thinking is the reverse — the goal isn’t expanding the size of government or contorting a policy to match an ideology; it’s about reaching the desired practical goal.

More generally, consider the tax-cut argument in 2001. Bush’s sales pitch was all over the map in explaining why the cuts would be worthwhile. On different occasions, Bush insisted tax cuts for billionaires are a good idea when the economy is bad, when the economy is good, when the deficit is low, when the deficit is high, when the public needs to spend more, when the public needs to save more, and when energy costs are too high. One quickly got the impression that the tax cuts were not about achieving a desired policy goal — the tax cuts were the policy goal.

The same applies to privatization. The right will argue that privatizing a government service — say, Social Security to take a random example — will produce a variety of policy goals (broader wealth, increased savings, fewer government expenditures, lower taxes, etc.) When faced with empirical evidence that privatization wouldn’t generate those goals, the right will offer a different policy rationale. If it’s debunked as well, it doesn’t matter because the right wants privatization anyway. Their ideology dictates that privatization is, prima facie, superior. Whether it achieves an additional policy goal doesn’t matter, because privatization is the policy goal.

As this relates to the public discourse, Chait said it makes “empirical reasoning pointless.” For most conservatives, the logical process “begins with the conclusion and marches back through the premises.” It prompted Paul O’Neill, Bush’s former Treasury secretary, to note that when dealing with Bush administration officials, “You don’t have to know anything or search for anything. You already know the answer to everything. It’s not penetrable by facts. It’s absolutism.”

For Obama, the principal question is, “Does it work?” For McCain, it’s, “Is it ideologically sound?”

Ah Paul O’Neil.

Didn’t he say watching Bush in a cabinet meeting was like watching a blind man try to lead a roomful of deaf folks?

But we all know O’Neill was just an disgruntled ex-employee.

Life is much easier when you know all the answers.

  • Agreed. I think that McCain seeks out positions based on their politically correctness among conservatives solely to please the GOP base– there’s no evidence that he actually believes anything.

    (And because there’s no evidence to support the belief that McCain has ideological commitments, I don’t adhere to it. I’m a liberal, after all. If I were a conservative like Tom DeLay, I’d argue that the other side’s candidate is a far-left abortion-mandating doctrinaire Communist regardless of the evidence at hand.)

  • This was precisely FDR’s method of governing, which is why it worked.

    I remember. dimly, a book I read years ago — I think the quote may have been from Humphrey but I’m not sure — pointing out that of course liberals argue among themselves more than (in the old sense) Conservatives because there are many ways of going forward, but only one way of staying in one place.

  • Bingo!

    That is the best explanation I’ve seen about the differences between Dems and Republican’ts ever. Nice job CB.

    Now if only those who voted Republican’t would take the time to understand it. Unfortunately, there is no reasoning with ideological R’s. Especially when it comes to tax cuts.

  • I tend to be eclectic. I do think we’re in a different time in 2008 than we were in 1992. The thing I think people should feel confident in is that I’m going to make these judgments not based on some fierce ideological pre-disposition but based on what makes sense. I’m a big believer in evidence. I’m a big believer in fact. You know, if somebody shows me we can do something better through a market mechanism, I’m happy to do it. I have no vested interest in expanding government or setting up a program just for the sake of setting one up. It’s too much work.

    It’s exactly this attitude that made me go crazy for the guy. DO WHAT WORKS, DON’T DO WHAT DOESN’T WORK. People like McCain/Bush have stopped even pretending to pay any heed to this; witness the emotion-based arguments for the gas tax and the Iraq war.

  • Barack Obama’s pragmatic, non-ideological, smart and fair approach is what has always been the most appealing to me about him — since it is so much in line with the best of Vermont’s political traditions.

  • This explains the entire Bush Administration (as well as neoconservativism).

    Just look at who they hire or appoint to positions of power: It’s not about competence, abilities or knowledge — it’s about fealty to the ideology.

    Just look at the Iraq War: It wasn’t about terrorism or Saddam or WMDs — it was about a plan hatched in the late 90s that called for invading Iraq no matter what. What happened after the invasion was irrelevant since the invasion was the only plan.

    Just look at what they say: Whether or not it’s true is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not it matches some preconceived narrative.

    Now, granted, the right does do a damn fine job of sharing and spreading general ideas and themes. But there is never any concern about the outcomes of those ideas and themes, nor whether or not they are good ideas and themes.

    On another note, does this mean we can stop hearing about how Obama doesn’t have any concrete ideas or proposals? One would think the hundreds of pages of policy proposals on his site would have nipped that in the bud, but it’s still going around. Maybe this will help finally quash that canard.

  • There is an irony here too, in that “conservatives” tend to argue for big military. But like the privatization or low taxes arguments, the end seeks the justification. If a post 9-11 world means asymmetric warfare, then planes, helicopters and star wars missiles are not the solution. Nor are private contracters that specialize in construction, security and food preparation. And yet, the Bush administration, with the almost unanimous support of conservatives, sought a “big military” solution to a cave dweller problem.

    Commander Guy (1), Paul O’Niell is a kook. He went to Uganda with Bono, came away convinced you could provide safe water to the whole country for only $25,000,000. Of course this would have been done with wells and small pumps. Neither the Ugandan government nor the Bush administration wanted this, since large water treatment plants benefit both the Ugandan leaders and the US special interests. But O’Niell was worth 250 million, and considerred, not donating 25 million or a portion of that, but rather adopting a few children.

  • This is why Obama is going to carry places like Kansas—he’s showing that he’s a “show-me” individual.

    Which is thousand times more presidential than Senator McConfused will ever be.

  • Conservatives also want material improvement in people’s lives, of course…

    Just one nit with the excerpt from Chait. I’ve not seen evidence over the last two decades that this is the case. It’s all about preserving wealth and making themselves and their friends richer. They care not one whit about the common person beyond discovering new ways to part them from their dollars.

    Maybe at the local level, but I think most local conservatives at the are just hoping they’ll make their way onto the national stage and get theirs.

    There is nothing redeeming or helpful about their greed.

  • “if only those who voted Republican’t would take the time to understand [the post]. Unfortunately, there is no reasoning with ideological R’s”

    That’s kind of the whole point of the post. But I agree: nice post.

    There’s probably more than enough material for another post (or book) on the interaction between authoritarianism, as John Dean and Greenwald et al. have explained, and the rejection of empiricism by many conservatives. If you believe that the truth is handed down to you from on high, you’re not likely to spend much time testing it or examining it. Nor are you going to listen to anyone who does.

  • Danp said: “There is an irony here too, in that “conservatives” tend to argue for big military.”

    Actually, Don Rumsfeld and his Neo-con philosophy has been to privatize the Military too. They have taken every non-combat specialist in the Army and Marines, given them a gun and a post to stand while giving the jobs they used to do to KBR and Blackwater. This de-militarization of support activities from logistics to construction, not to mention using contractors to operate specialized military and intelligence systems, is reversing a trend of militarizing support activities that started with Marlobough and ended with Wellington.

    Really, artillery used to be run by civilian contractors who owned the guns and had a deplorable tendency to abandon the field in the middle of a battle (back during the Thirty Years War). And it wasn’t until Wellington (and Napoleon) that transport wagon drivers were militarized.

    Now we are going backwards, with contractors driving the trucks (for four times the pay) and contractors running the complex weapons systems.

  • I do *not* agree with all of Obama’s policy positions. However, when he talks like this (and to borrow a phrase from Chris Mathews of all people), Obama sends these thrills up my leg.

    It’s the part about thoughtfully listening to various viewpoints. Everybody else surrounds themselves with loyalists who only believe in their particular dogma. I’ve read multiple articles now about Obama seeking out different people for opinions on subjects, including military officers who disagree with his foreign policy. This guy could be a good leader.

  • I hope everyone reads the entire WSJ article. Can you imagine what a similar interview with McCain would be like? I can’t even imagine it without getting headaches of frustration.

    It’s a sad commentary of the times that I get so excited at the prospect of a person as *reasonable* and *rational* as Barack Obama in the White House. He has clear ideas about the issues but is always open to people proving him wrong. Obama is a great speaker and orator, but it’s the thoughtful dignity he displays in interviews like this that really thrill me.

  • It’s worth quoting part of the Preamble to the Constitution:

    ” . . . in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity . . . ”

    That is the responsibility of the federal government, to see that we accomplish all these objectives. How in the hell do the Republicans read that as a mandate to drown the government in the bathtub and to hell with what happens to the nation as a result? These guys are just nuts.

    And Obama is right. It doesn’t matter how we go about securing these goals – whatever does the job best is the answer, whether it be the private sector, the public sector, both, or whatever the hell else we come up with.

    Note the general welfare clause. That does not read “the top 1%.”

  • Chait: “Conservatives also want material improvement in people’s lives, of course”

    The scope of the word PEOPLE is debatable. Perhaps true conservatives do. Today’s Republicans cronyists want material improvement in a very specific set of people’s lives – their own.

  • Excellent post CB. I’ve been arguing this point to my conservative family members for years.

    Conservatism = ideology based on speculation.
    Liberalism = pragmatism based on evidence.

  • I want to follow-up on my previous post to highlight one of the comments that Obama made in that WSJ interview. He talked about the difference between marginal tax rates and effective tax rates.

    I had an argument with my conservative, e-mail forwarding Mom (whom I love) about taxes the other day, and learned that she didn’t know the difference between marginal tax rates and effective tax rates. When I told her that my family’s marginal federal tax rate was 25 percent, but our effective federal tax rate was 13 percent, she was dumbfounded (as many conservatives are when it comes to basic facts).

    This nonsense about all the business that America is losing to foreign competitors as a result of our unusually high 35 percent corporate tax rates is easily undermined when it’s pointed out, as Obama did in this interview, that American corporations pay one of the lowest effective tax rates among industrialized countries.

    If you don’t already know or understand the difference between these two terms, please find out.

  • Remember the Canadian-NAFTA comment controversy involving an Obama aide? Do we have a right to be paranoid? Clinton campaigned one way and changed his economic policies just as he took office. Consider this:

    Obama’s Chicago Boys

    by Naomi Klein
    June 16, 2008

    Barack Obama waited just three days after Hillary Clinton pulled out of the race to declare, on CNBC, “Look. I am a pro-growth, free-market guy. I love the market.”

    Demonstrating that this is no mere spring fling, he has appointed 37-year-old Jason Furman to head his economic policy team. Furman is one of Wal-Mart’s most prominent defenders, anointing the company a “progressive success story.” On the campaign trail, Obama blasted Clinton for sitting on the Wal-Mart board and pledged, “I won’t shop there.” For Furman, however, it’s Wal-Mart’s critics who are the real threat: the “efforts to get Wal-Mart to raise its wages and benefits” are creating “collateral damage” that is “way too enormous and damaging to working people and the economy more broadly for me to sit by idly and sing ‘Kum-Ba-Ya’ in the interests of progressive harmony.”

    Obama’s love of markets and his desire for “change” are not inherently incompatible. “The market has gotten out of balance,” he says, and it most certainly has. Many trace this profound imbalance back to the ideas of Milton Friedman, who launched a counterrevolution against the New Deal from his perch at the University of Chicago economics department. And here there are more problems, because Obama — who taught law at the University of Chicago for a decade —is thoroughly embedded in the mind-set known as the Chicago School.

    (snip)

    Now is the time to worry about Obama’s Chicago Boys and their commitment to fending off serious attempts at regulation. It was in the two and a half months between winning the 1992 election and being sworn into office that Bill Clinton did a U-turn on the economy. He had campaigned promising to revise NAFTA, adding labour and environmental provisions and to invest in social programs. But two weeks before his inauguration, he met with then-Goldman Sachs chief Robert Rubin, who convinced him of the urgency of embracing austerity and more liberalization. Rubin told PBS, “President Clinton actually made the decision before he stepped into the Oval Office, during the transition, on what was a dramatic change in economic policy…”

  • 35yrs of of economic policies based on the fear that those nine terrible words induced in the extremely wealthy and the unregulated greedy corporations…”I’m from the government and I’m here to help”…

    These people wanted to operate in the dark without regard for anyone except their own profiteering. To them government help meant regulation. They are incapable of regulating their own greed and have allowed lobbyists to write our laws. The senate has become the millionaire’s club and the highest paying jobs around are lobbyists who don’t stand for the people but for those wealthy enough to afford them and their “massive” services.

    “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” should bring a smile across the face of all of us…not “go away and leave me alone”. Isn’t this the meaning of the “United states” of America, a united commons where everyone is allowed and even helped to prosper and flourish?

    Instead we get 35yrs of creating a ruling wealthy elite class who have decided that money is best concentrated in a few hands and they will determine what is best for the rest of us. The right would have us believe that all we need now is a corporate “King”.

  • @16 And Obama is right. It doesn’t matter how we go about securing these goals – whatever does the job best is the answer, whether it be the private sector, the public sector, both, or whatever the hell else we come up with.

    It is also great to see Obama show up front that he’ll be using what is best for the country and what makes most sense; whether it is something the Republicans have claimed as their territory or not.

    By doing so, he shows he’s able to work across the isle in congress; because every idea has merit. He’ll just check it against facts. Now it will be up to the Republicans to ‘show’ that their ideology can stand up to reality.

    It will be interesting. Sure the intellectually lazy crowd will get headaches and won’t want to hear about it… but what’s new…

  • l also like how he said: …because of the success of the U.S. creating a working liberal economic order…

    and

    …It’s not clear to me that we want a larger government, but we certainly want a government that is setting more intelligent priorities and using taxpayer dollars more wisely and structuring tax policies that are conducive to long-term economic growth….

    Notice that the ‘bold’ words don’t work very well when talking about Republican policies. Where’s ‘bubba the troll’ when you need one…. 🙂

    and

    …how much you pay in taxes as a corporation a lot of times is going to depend on how good your lobbyist is, as opposed to any sound economic theories…

    wow.. doesn’t that pretty much sum up the Republican mantra?

  • Chris @ 18: Conservatism = ideology based on speculation.

    Precisely why Republicanism attracts the religious right. It’s exactly the same process.

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