Obama announces support for FISA ‘compromise’

I can’t begin to imagine what he’s thinking. In fact, I know he knows better. The campaign’s statement, in its entirety:

“Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people. There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders.

“That is why last year I opposed the so-called Protect America Act, which expanded the surveillance powers of the government without sufficient independent oversight to protect the privacy and civil liberties of innocent Americans. I have also opposed the granting of retroactive immunity to those who were allegedly complicit in acts of illegal spying in the past.

“After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year’s Protect America Act.

“Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President’s illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance — making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act.

“It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives — and the liberty — of the American people.”

That’s the utterly dejecting, hard-to-spin news. That said, the “work in the Senate to remove this provision” offers a tiny glimmer of hope.

Mcjoan noted a Bloomberg interview with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid from this afternoon:

Reid said the Senate may try to remove a provision from the bill that shields telephone companies from privacy lawsuits. Holding a separate vote on that issue next week may provide political cover for Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama. Even though the attempt may fail, Reid said the vote would allow those opposed to the liability protection to “express their views.”

“I’m going to try real hard to have a separate vote on immunity,” Reid said in an interview to be aired this weekend on Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt.”

“Probably we can’t take that out of the bill, but I’m going to try.”

If Reid is sincere — and I have no reason to believe he isn’t — that attempt may matter. If the Senate Majority Leader and the Democratic presidential nominee make a concerted, good-faith effort to kill the immunity provisions in the bill, there’s still a chance to make this bill a whole lot better.

I think Obama’s making a terrible mistake by endorsing the “compromise,” but if he can work with Reid to remove immunity, it’ll be a big step in the right direction.

That said, his announcement reminds me a bit of Bill Clinton’s decision to leave the campaign trail in 1992 to oversee the execution of Ricky Ray Rector. I still liked Clinton, and I still voted for him, but it was a hard thing to get over.

I feel a little like that now, too.

Like I said early. Democrats are the problem now. And so now is Obama. So much for change. Same as it ever was……

  • Was this really him coming out in support of the FISA bill, or just an explanation as to why he voted for it? In my mind, those are two different things.

  • I will not vote for him. I will not vote for any Democrat, nor any Republican. Ever.

  • Foul, I can’t fathom this decision. Stripping immunity is probably DOA. I can’t pull the lever to vote for him in good conscience. That leaves me with Barr, Nader and Baldwin. Yikes.

  • So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives — and the liberty — of the American people.”

    And the next Republican president will pledge to do the same, but of course they’ll be lying.

    Sad.

  • …or just an explanation as to why he voted for it? -Limbaugh’sDiabetes

    The senate hasn’t voted yet, so it is a statement of support.

    A soul crushing, hope destroying statement of support.

  • While I agree that this is far from ideal and that the bill will most likely pass with immunity being granted for the telecoms (which eliminates one sure way to have Bushco stand trial), we are only 9 short months away from an Obama presidency that could make drastic changes to the powers this bill grants.

    As for bringing Bushco to trial…there are many many more ways to accomplish that.

  • Until Senator Obama steps up and shows me otherwise, he is really more of the same, especially after supporting the GA Blue Dog against the progressive in the primary.

    Anyone that votes for this repudiates their oath of office.

    Anyone that says we need to fix this NowNowNowNow forgets that FISA already allows a three-day window before requiring warrants, that only 5 requests have ever been turned down even temporarily by the FISA court out of the over 19,000 asked for, and that Bush has already broken the law without any accountability since 2001. There is no pressing need or “exigent circumstance” (which bypasses a court altogether, perhaps Barack missed that gem) to rush this through. We still don’t know who was spied on or why or what was done with the information, and yet we’re asked to trust the WH. They can’t even account for the nukes fer cryin’ out loud.

    As I noted in an email for Sen Obama, Donna Edwards won in spite of DLC and telecom support for Al Wynn, because of the quality of her message. Obama himself made his push when his message was progressive, not cowering.

  • In truth, immunity is all that matters to the net roots. he fights that and wins, all is well. Sure, there are people for whomthe entire bill is a disgrace, but that is a much smaller sample size.

    His problem is that he does not want to fight and lose, especially with McCain on the other side. It is a sharp contrast ad for McCain taht will be brutla becaus so many Dems voted for it that McCain can claim that Obama is in the liberal minority of his party.

    crappy issue to capitulate, but smart politics. he needs to find an issue dear to the net roots and fight for it, like maybe net neutrality or some such thing.

  • This stinks, but I think he was in a lose-lose situation. The votes just aren’t there in the Senate to take a stand overturning the House bill, so either Obama sucks it up and votes with the party, or takes a stand and has only Feingold, Leahy and a couple others rally around him.

    Given the media’s willingness to pounce on him for any perceived weakness, he had to know the latter scenario would lead to more “divided party, no support” stories about him.

  • This is deeply disappointing and disconcerting. I wonder how many potential votes Obama just lost with this choice. I’m so upset that I’m not sure I will continue to support him at all now. I had such high hopes that he was truly a different kind of creature; someone we could count on to restore so much of what we’ve lost in this country in the past almost 8 years. Sigh.

  • Sadly, it looks the Supreme Court is the last best hope for sanity, since it was clearly a violation of the existing law and the fourth amendment. Of course, with the RATS block, the telecoms only need one vote.

    I wonder what kind of dirt the telcos dug up on while eavesdropping on the members of congress that has them so spooked? Is it tin foil hat territory to assume that?

  • On June 20th, 2008 at 4:49 pm, TR said:

    This stinks, but I think he was in a lose-lose situation. The votes just aren’t there in the Senate to take a stand overturning the House bill, so either Obama sucks it up and votes with the party, or takes a stand and has only Feingold, Leahy and a couple others rally around him.

    Given the media’s willingness to pounce on him for any perceived weakness, he had to know the latter scenario would lead to more “divided party, no support” stories about him.

    But TR, this is just the point. We thought he was different; that he wouldn’t continue the game-playing. If winning takes precedent over principles, what’s the point then? I think he may have lost some supporters with this statement.

  • Can anyone explain to me why retroactive immunity will get a majority in the Senate? If there really is a separate vote on it, why wouldn’t it get stripped out of the bill?

  • I knew there would be times when Barack Obama would disappoint me. I just did not expect it to be so soon, so profound, and on this issue. I personally do not want his stinking pledge to “monitor” the program. If elected President, he will be the executive; I am not interested in his pledge to monitor himself. The good senator is going to have to do a better job of leading on this matter than he has done so far. He is going to have to put a good deal more lipstick on this pig he is pushing on his supporters. At minimum, he would do better to fight immunity AND call for an earlier sunset. This tells me that his campaign fears the “soft on terrorism” meme. He is approaching this vote in a crouch. I still plan to vote for him, but he just robbed me of some reasons why. This makes it harder to lobby the McCain mavericks in my life to give Obama a chance. I started my day feeling down about this thing and thinking it could not get worse. Once again, national Democratic leaders prove to be oxy-morons.

  • If Reid is sincere — and I have no reason to believe he isn’t — that attempt may matter. If the Senate Majority Leader and the Democratic presidential nominee make a concerted, good-faith effort to kill the immunity provisions in the bill, there’s still a chance to make this bill a whole lot better.

    You have every reason to believe that Reid is not sincere. This reeks of providing “cover” to those Dems (like Obama) who have strong-minded, pro-liberty, anti-authoritarian supporters backing them. It’s just a cover – Reid won’t be strongarming anyone into doing anything other than making sure he has the minimum number of votes for his buddies in the Telco industry to get their retroactive immunity and then everyone else can vote however their “conscience” tells them to vote.

    If Reid were sincere, he’d have pushed his colleagues to put this damn vote off until after Bush was out of office. He’s not sincere at all – he’s scratching his buddies’ backs. And Obama is right there with him.

    So no big surprise – once again an election where I get to choose between a big evil and a slightly smaller evil. Hooray. That’s Change You Can Believe In, my friends. I wonder how many naive young folks just got a big splash of cold water in their faces today.

    (This is also another data point validating my suspicion that Obama only made the right decision about the Iraq War because he wasn’t wrapped up “in the bubble” in DC at the time. Now he’s “in the bubble” and whatever good judgment he might have had before going to DC has been replaced by “conventional wisdom”, or whatever tone-deaf political philosophy has lead him to decide that it’s a good idea to support this garbage).

  • So he’s a chickenshit. I suspected as much and that was why I didn’t support him in the primary, and I was right. I’ll mark my ballot for him, but I will be voting against McCain, not for Obama, the Constitutional Law professor who finds the Fourth Amendment optional. Shoot me now.

  • Can anyone tell me the rational behind this “compromise”. I don’t get it. Why don’t the Senate Democrats come up with their own compromise.

  • Same old Washington shit. I don’t see any change here that I can believe in.

  • NonyNony: Count me as one getting a big splash of cold water. Oh well, guess I can try to find something better to do with the money I would have continued to donate to his campaign between now and November.

    I expected him to disappoint me eventually, but… What TuiMel said.

  • impeachcheneythenbush,

    I understand and share the anger, and I too wish he’d tried.

    But, that said, I can also understand the need to be cautious in some ways during the campaign.

  • Don’t be so negative about this. Regard it as the Gift that obviates giving.

    I know that, if this passes the Senate with immunity included, I’ll never give a penny to the Obama campaign. I already refuse to donate to the DNC or any other national or state Democratic party organization, because of their support for the AUMF, Patriot Act, MCA, and so on.

    I will also do my best to talk everyone I know out of donating — and I can be very convincing, especially on something that easy. All that’s necessary is to sow doubt.

  • Same you can believe in.

    Obama should reconsider that public financing option, because he’s not getting another dollar from me. He should be damn happy he’ll still get my vote.

    Did you ever wish Kucinich was 6′ 4″ and looked like George Clooney?

  • Yes very disappointing… but remember he’s not a messiah, he’s a politician, and a pretty good one all things considered.

    He’s far from perfect, but less far than most other choices… so yeah. The perfect presidential candidate is a fantasy.

  • I can also understand the need to be cautious in some ways during the campaign. -TR

    Like Kerry? and Gore?

    Did anyone here support him because he was cautious?

    I supported him because he wasn’t afraid to say the right thing or challenge the status quo.

    Now? He’s just not McCain.

    CB always wonders why it makes sense to start a third party when their platforms nearly always mimic the Democratic platform.

    Well, perhaps it’s because it wouldn’t be full of Democrats.

  • I read the above and walked to the front window of my home and took down my Obama campaign sign. I have removed the large Obama button from my backpack and thrown both items into the trash.

    With his endorsement of this “compromise” he has shown me all I need to know-he’s the same as the rest of them. If he will betray the law and the constitution on this issue what will he betray next?

  • let me ask all of you, do you think he should have fought this if he KNEW he would lose badly?

    that is the question.

  • This sounds a lot like the way Clinton held her nose and voted to authorize the Iraq war, something none of you were willing to understand or forgive.

    I told you that Obama is cautious and that he would not take principled stands on things. I too did not expect to be validated in my predictions so soon.

    Well, you wanted him and you’ve got him now. Enjoy your victory.

    I will not be voting for Obama, but that’s nothing new. Does anyone know what Clinton’s position on this was? I couldn’t find a statement anywhere.

  • “Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President’s illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance — making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act.

    It’s nothing of the goddamned sort! Lielielielielie!!!!!!

    Couple this with his support for Barrow and the way he went out of his way to support that goddamned traitor Lieberman when he went against the expressed will of Democratic voters in a Democratic primary in 2006, and support him for re-election as Senator, and I now see a disconcerting pattern.

  • Huh… I never considered myself a single issue voter before. I may have to rethink that. Does “defending the Constitution” count as a single issue? Are there any candidates or parties that are with me on this issue?

  • let me ask all of you, do you think he should have fought this if he KNEW he would lose badly? -eric

    Absolutely.

    It’s his duty to defend the constitution, win or lose.

  • Look, I wish he’d have taken a stand. I really do.

    But there simply aren’t 40 other senators in there who would be willing to join him in a filibuster, which is what he’d need to stop this. I wish we had a Senate full of Feingolds and Dodds and Leahys, but for the moment, they’re singular, not plural. There just aren’t. You can wish and hope that there were, but there are not.

    Given that political reality, what could he do? He makes a noble speech, stands on principle, and fails. The media story is that he can’t even convince more than ten of his colleagues to join him. It cuts his legs out from under him right when he’s trying to rally the party around him, and adds ammo to the moronic argument of Republicans that we’re soft on terror.

    Yes, I’m pissed. But I’m not so naive or so wound up in the false hope that he’s a messiah that I see any way out of this. Hoyer and Pelosi put him in an impossible bind, and there was no good way out.

    But hey, pretend this means there’s no difference between him and McBush, and go vote Nader. That worked out so well last time.

  • OK, I know I’ll get slammed for this, but I don’t see how the kind of opposition to this bill generally and to Obama in particular is proportionate to what the bill provides for.

    My understanding of what Obama agrees with is that the bill allows the NSA to data-mine. If it appears that Americans are to be targeted, then approval from the FISA Court is required for further surveillance.

    I’m open to changing my mind about this, but I don’t really see how that’s such an intolerable burden on Americans. Help me out.

    Obama’s also opposed to retroactive immunity, which I’m not really bothered by one way or the other. Assuming for the sake of argument that telecom companies broke the law, what’s the actionable injury that a plaintiff could claim? What are plaintiffs losing out on here?

  • “…if Reid is sincere — and I have no reason to believe he isn’t …” Then you are selectively blocking your memory as Reid had a chance to do that in the first place by allowing the bill that did not contain immunity to come out of committee instead of the version he promoted. Reid is being deceitful to the max and after making sure the FISA with immunity has enough votes to pass will vote against it to make himself look good. He knows damn good and well that without telecom immunity the president will veto the bill. He also KNOWS there is not a chance in Hell that immunity will not be granted,…AND SO DOES OBAMA. who announces this late on Friday so he’s being just as deceitful to even suggest it. Both of them KNOW this has nothing to do with security because that was fixed long ago without immunity and rejected. It’s always been about TELECOM IMMUNITY, which also protects Bush’s illegal activities from exposure. Comey knew this, Ashcroft knows this, Obama knows this. He’s just another politician saying what’s been said before in empty promises. I’ve lost all faith in him. Now he’s just the lesser of two evils… What do we do when none of our leaders represent us any longer.??? Jefferson made that clear and so did the Declaration of Independence. Liars we can trust, eh? You have every reason to believe Reid is insincere, Steve. And none to believe he is sincere.

    I am so disappointing in Obama and now know he’s been blowing smoke up my ass with thuis change crap. Not only is he promoting Bush enabler John Barrow in a primary challenge from Georgia state senator Helen Thomas but now is actually trying to promote this FISA cover Bush’s illegal activity and immunize these corporations from their illegal activities as a compromise but has the nerve to sell it to us as an improvement over the Protect America Act. When the chips were down he just ground them in further.

    Change we cannot count on. Totally failed his first opportunity at real leadership. Now we get more of the same…no accountability and legalize the Bush regime. Too bad McCain is 100Xs worse but Obama is a big disappointment. Now I believe what was said about NAFTA being campaign rhetoric. You blew it badly Barack…just pathetic. There went all my hope for a new future. I don’t believe you anymore.

  • Painfully disappointing. Tell me again why I should give money, time and hope for this party, or its supposedly “different” nominee?

  • This sounds a lot like the way Clinton held her nose and voted to authorize the Iraq war, something none of you were willing to understand or forgive.

    I did understand. I did forgive. I thought Clinton was a fine candidate and I would have happily voted for her.

    However, voting against the war showed better judgment than voting for it, so my support went to Obama. If there was a third Democratic candidate running that opposed both the Iraq war AND retroactive immunity, that would be even better judgment, and my vote would go to him/her over Obama.

    Is that simple enough?

  • i too, knew that obama, as every politician always does, will kick me in the gut at some point. i didn’t think it’d be on an issue with which the correct stance is so obvvious. i don’t think he’ll be getting any more money from me.
    change… my ass.

  • Not a good news day, first we have to deal with Obama flip-flopping on his pledge to accept public financing, and now this.

    Why oh why didn’t he just keep quiet on this issue until after making a lame attempt to strip the bill of the immunity first so he could at least claim to have tried.

  • as I said in my blog this is a do or die year for the dems, if the congressional leaders can’t defeat bush with a majority you really think they’ll hold off McCain?

  • Does anyone know what Clinton’s position on this was? I couldn’t find a statement anywhere. – Mary

    Not sure what her current position is, but she opposed the retro-active immunity for sure in late 2007/early 2008.

  • btw…”…It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance — making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future…”

    He does not understand or hasn’t read the bill because it does none of these things…not one. It allows for the president without oversight or accountability or even an explanation to spy on anyone anytime anywhere whether purely domestic communication or not.

    Why would Obama put such a lying spin on this travesty…Is this the reason he released his stand late Friday afternoon just like the WH always does with bad news??? Then tries to pretend there’s hope of a change when he knows there is none unless he filibusters it and challenges it. Just so pathetic I want to cry..

  • I’m seeing some hardcore Obama supporters getting really angry about this. It’s really not that surprising to me and doesn’t really affect my vote, but it’s interesting to see some of the comments from people who are usually very adamant supporters of Obama.

  • Lampedusa my friend, everything has to change for everything to remain the same

  • The age old political adage: Run to the left during the primary campaign and run to the center during the general. It’s sad, but always, always true.

    Is Obama principled? Yes. Is he a savvy politician? Yes. Do the two coexist peacefully? Not always.

  • If people here are going to abandon him over this vote, why should any pro-life/anti-choice cross over and vote for him?

    this is not war authorization.

  • Given that political reality, what could he do? -TR

    How about what’s right for a change? That’s what he’s supposed to be about, after all. I’m not disagreeing with your point, just how we should react to it. You’re right, he probably would have lost the fight and the media would lambaste him for it, but last I check he wasn’t running for President of the Media (McCain already won that race). Frankly, I thought he was presented with an opportunity to take a principled stand against the Bush Administration, the corportocracy, the media, and DINOs all at once, and that by doing so he’d send a loud and clear message that he stands with the people and the Constitution.

    But he didn’t. He says his campaign starts with us, but clearly, today’s announcemnt was a win for Bush and AT&T, not the fourth amendment.

    I certainly don’t think he’s a messiah, but I did think he was different and genuinely interested in standing up for our rights. This simply proves I’m wrong.

    …Obama flip-flopping on his pledge to accept public financing… -Greg

    He should probably consider flopping back since he just shut off a lot of donation spigots.

    I’m seeing some hardcore Obama supporters getting really angry about this. -Greg

    You’re damned right. It’s about principles and protecting the Constitution. Not what’s politically expedient or safe. This couldn’t be more disappointing. I’m back to holding my nose and voting for the ‘not Republican,’ I guess.

    I sent this to Obama:

    Senator Obama,

    I am greatly disappointed in your announcement to support the FISA capitulation that passed a House vote today. As the leader of the Democratic party and my Senator, I really expected your announcement before the House vote, and as a progressive I expected you to oppose what is clearly not a compromise, but another Democratic surrender to add to the growing list. When people complain there isn’t a difference between Republicans and Democrats it is impossible to argue with them while Democrats are supporting awful legislation like this. You have made it harder to make the case that you are an agent for change, and while I will most likely still vote for you in November, I am unlikely to contribute to your campaign again. Your job is to protect my rights and the Constitution, not the Bush Administration and their crony corporations.

  • hey, Obama voted to confirm RIce after we learned about her incompetence. THAT was the time to learn he was nothing transcendental.

    good lord. i will still vote for him without the blink of an eye. i will give money to him; i will do what i can for the dems and thenm i will fight for progressive ideals

  • Eight years of Bush has sure made us jumpy, hasn’t it? Let’s try and remain calm for a bit longer. Did you think Obama would be a perfect saint who would never do anything that we wouldn’t like?

    If so, I’ve got the Easter Bunny on speed dial for you.

    For all that this is an apparently disappointing decision on his part (Obama, not the Easter Bunny), we knew he makes up his own mind when we signed on for this little tea party. I think he’s shown us enough to at least give him the benefit of the doubt for a while.

    Because we all know what the alternative is, now don’t we?

  • Can I ask all of you who think that this is the greatest betrayal ever really think he could have done without giving the GOP an easy set of targets to lob 527s at? Does his stance on this, with qualifications and all, invalidate everything he’s said, written, and done in the last year and a half?

    I’m with TR on this. He’s not perfect, and never will be, but he is far, far better than the alternatives. If you won’t support him simply because he had to make the best out of a very bad situation, then all you’ve done is drink the ‘kool-aid’ and stick your head in the sand as far as everything else goes. I know most everyone who follows both houses of Congress throughout the whole FISA mess knew that the Dems were spineless, and that they would eventually crumble like they so often have under Bush’s pressure. I had a long running bet with a friend of mine over that and I just won it.

    Obama’s also voted for things that on the face of things go against his principles like voting for the various appropriations bills for Iraq and Afghanistan, but most people who even pay attention to him granted him that he wanted to support the troops and prevent as many American casualties as possible. Again, he had to do the best he could in the political environment at the time, just like now.

    Everyone likes their messiah image, of some great politician sweeping back all of the bad things that have been done in the last eight years, but you have to face reality. Obama was going to do things that you didn’t agree with at some point, and was going to do things that you actively hated. It’s only natural, since he’s not you and he has his own set of priorities.

    You all say that this makes him no different than McCain, which is a lie and a bad one at that. The differences between them are as wide or wider than the Grand Canyon, and a cursory glimpse of both their campaign sites and this one would tell you that. The fact is, you’re all pissed and angry and disappointed because your image of Obama just shattered, that nice and fancy ideal of a politician who was going to sweep all that Washington garbage away. That kool-aid image.

    Tearing out your hair and burning your signs won’t change anything except to make you feel a bit better. It won’t change the FISA situation, and it won’t change Obama or the election. Obama’s all about the we, as he constantly reminds everyone in most of his speeches. If you really cannot stand his position on the issue, tell him that, fax him that, email him that. If his vast network of small donors, of people, is not a sham, then he will respond. But maybe not in the way you want. You’d have to accept that possibility.

    If your support is based on nothing at all beyond his oratory prowess and campaign mantra, then go ahead and sulk and mourn the shattered bits of your messiah image. The rest of us, who know while this may suck, may hurt in the extreme, know that the race goes on, and that Obama, flaws and all, is the best option for our President right now.

  • As I noted before (#8) there is no way any sentient being believes that W will now follow the law.

    Heck, they’re stonewalling on Cheney (who has exactly ZERO executive privelege rights) and the EPA among many other things, by claiming executive privelege where there is none. One cannot make a deal of any kind with lying cheats, and since I know Obama has raised this very culture of corruption issue in his speeches, he can’t claim ignorance of the WH MO. This will indeed backfire on him, and even though he’s better than McSame, he still needs to stay on message.

    It’s been the grassroots political newbies that have helped him get his “independent” message out over the corporatist HRC [who, by the way still hasn’t said anything at all, how’s that for ‘courage’] , who have led the charge on the debunking operations when the GOP astroturf du jour puts out yet another scurrilous lie, and for calling out McSame’s own issues. Those are a lot of eyes closing for him now.

    Anyone that votes for this repudiates their oath of office. In CA we have recall rights, so Pelosi’s seat will be hotter than most. I told Obama that he had the duty because of that oath to oppose this bill.

  • Blue Girl Red State says: So he’s a chickenshit. I suspected as much and that was why I didn’t support him in the primary, and I was right.

    Yes, he’s a chickenshit. There’s no way around that. But you weren’t “right.” If you’re honest with yourself, you know damned well Hillary Gas Tax Obliterate Iran McCain’s So Experienced Clinton would have done the same thing, possibly even embracing telecom immunity. We are betrayed–again–by the Democrats.

  • Obama’s also opposed to retroactive immunity, which I’m not really bothered by one way or the other. Assuming for the sake of argument that telecom companies broke the law, what’s the actionable injury that a plaintiff could claim? What are plaintiffs losing out on here?

    honest partisan-
    its not about the plaintiff’s, its not about the money, it never has been. for seven years the telecoms have been illegally spying and collecting data on innocent americans, for the illegal executive programs. the lawsuits were simply a mechanism for exposing this. people tried at first to attack the administration head-on, but the government would just assert the “state secrets” doctrine to hold back evidence, so no one knew who was being spied on – this results in those cases being dismissed, because no one can actually demonstrate they suffered any harm, due to the hiding of the evidence. this worked for a while to protect the administration, but then someone decided to sue based on federal privacy law against private companies. the telcos cannot assert the state secrets privilege, so these lawsuits were a back door into discovering just what has been going on. The harm is the loss of your privacy. even if this kind of violation of is only represented nominal damages ($1), the EFF would have been fine with it, because the important part was the principle, not the money. the retroactive immunity is not so much for the telecoms, its to dismiss the cases and prevent discovery of the administration’s law breaking. the telcos, while naughty on their own, are the small fish. Obama and the dems have just killed accountability for Bush’s criminality on this front.

  • “If Reid is sincere — and I have no reason to believe he isn’t….”

    You gotta be kidding me. Reid? Sincere? You musta missed it when Roberts castrated him over the Phase Two rip-off. Reid got the “Give’ Em Hell Harry” nickname, and we the people got NUTHIN’.

    Reid ain’t gonna get immunity removed, its all just mewling horse crap, exactly what we’ve got from these cowards now for eight years. Gads what a bunch of spineless cowadly sell-outs.

  • 10: “The votes just aren’t there in the Senate to take a stand overturning the House bill”

    14: We thought he was different; that he wouldn’t continue the game-playing. If winning takes precedent over principles, what’s the point then?

    I agree with 14.

    I know he’s running for President – every decision becomes a calcuated one. But he still has a duty as a Senator. Real principaled (sic) leadership involve taking stands. I guess it doesn’t matter to me whether it’s politically expedient to vote against this mesaure.

    Voting for this will close off any real chance to hold these telecom companies accountable for breaking the law and spying on Americans.

    I guess I wouldn’t make a good politician – if I was an elected official, and things like this came across my desk, I have to vote for what’s right, and against what’s wrong. I would rather be voted out of office for my beliefs. And if I am, so be it.

    Is there any way someone can ask Obama directly about this – during one of his campaign stops? At this point, the only real hope we have is that by repeatedly asking, Obama can be convinced that his decision to support this is wrong. If that can be done, it might encourage others to as well, and perhaps change his mind.

    We have to start somewhere (in addition of course to contacting our Senators in our states directly).

  • Can I ask all of you who think that this is the greatest betrayal ever really think he could have done without giving the GOP an easy set of targets to lob 527s at? -Mightyblue

    How many fucking times do I have to say it?

    The right fucking thing.

    There is not compromise when it comes to the constitution and the fourth amendment. Political expediency, cowardice, whatever. No excuses.

    None of us expected him to be perfect, but for fuck’s sake, let’s be 100% on the constitutional issues, especially those that tread on our rights for the benefit of corporations.

    Let’s be 100% on issues which should land the Bush Administration in jail.

    He can be wrong on other things. Not this.

    No excuses, so please stop making them. We have to be united in our opposition to bills like this, no matter who supports them.

    Why the hell does accountability and doing the right thing go out the window when it’s the guy you support? For me, it doesn’t. He’s absolutely wrong on this to the detriment of the whole country. And I’ll call him out on it no matter how many of you want to chill and give him the benefit of the doubt.

    That’s the kind of attitude that lands us in a unnecessary trillion dollar illegal war without end.

  • Not sure I understand all the anger–Obama is a human. As President, he will do
    some things that will undoubtly disappoint then too. I just can’t see him taking an unnecessary beating for something that couldn’t be won. I also don’t see how this relates to not taking the campaign funds–that would be suicide, this is not. (betcha most Americans don’t even know what this fuss is about.) I’m not withholding my little contributions, and I hope you guys will re-consider too. okay, beat me up now–I’m in the fetal position so it shouldn’t hurt too much. peace out.(btw please don’t jump on my grammar and/or spelling, I’m trying to get the hell out of here before a thunderstorm!)

  • the thing that is also missing from this discussion that makes this issue different is that the dems control the house. this bill never needed to come to the floor. Pelosi didn’t push Obama into this – he let her bring it. this isn’t 2000-2006, where the dems couldn’t fight crappy bills cause they didn’t have the numbers, and delay and hastert would arrage political votes. the leadership actually chose to bring this to a vote when they could have buried it. it is a betrayal more than most, because it wasn’t just kowtowing to the administration, it was affirmatively abetting them. the republicans could not have passed this with hoyer, pelosi, and, at the very least, obama’s indifference.

  • I think there are a lot of people leaving comments who are not true Obama suppporters. I think we have some Hillary folks who are looking for a “gee Hillary would have been better point” and some McCain folks who are trying to fuel a small fire.

    Do I wish Obama would have came out against FISA, YES! But, the reality is there are two choices for President, as only McCain and Obama can win the General Election. One choice is obvious, the other is insane. McCain for four years would be the end of our Nation, and that is REALITY.

  • to clarify on the “it couldn’t be won” meme – the point is the dems didn’t have to play the game. this was not a lose-lose scenario they were forced into – they knew what would happen, and they chose, eyes-open, to allow the game to be played. if obama didn’t want to lose, they could have left it in committee.

  • okay honestpartisan …#36. … What Comey and Ass-croft found out that Bush was doing that they wouldn’t sign off on was tapping and spying on democrats to find out who their campaign donors were. Then set up wire taps to try to find anything they could arrest them on or make their lives miserable for donating money to dem candidates.(they have done this already to a few layers who were donating to the Edward’s campaign…Siegleman also falls into their snare but they couldn’t find anything)

    They began to spy on anyone that might at some point in the future become a threat to their party or idealism or just become to powerful for their liking, and to gather info that could at some point in the future be used against them as blackmail (such as the people who administer, register or count the votes)…spying on their sex lives or anywhere they spent their money or anything they might use against their friends to get them to cooperate should it ever become necessary…like something their children might have done they wouldn’t want the world knowing about(such as when Bush went through his snorting cocaine phase or Laura Bush killing her boyfriend with her car).

    Now they are spying on successful business people to get inside information to give to their corporate buddies so they can profit from it or take over the business.

    You get a call from someone claiming to be a Muslim asking for your opinions and then announce they support terrorist acts etc and it is taped. Now you can be investigated as an enemy combatant for just having a conversation which you didn’t initiate.

    Now you have a medical condition and all “confidential” information regarding that condition has been retrieved and released as public information to ins. cos and to potential employers.

    The list is endless but it is all in violation of fourth amendment rights which congress just gave away.

    They no longer need approval from a FISA court just if ever questioned they can just say the president (or the government) told me too and it was to help protect the country.

    Retroactive immunity means we will never know what thepresident or the telecoms actually did because they no longer have to reveal it…you know, what Comey, Ashcroft and the entire top tier of the DoJ was ready to resign over…is now forgiven and legal.

    They can now invade all the democratic party’s computers, or anyone else’s computer at will. This gives the president the power to break any law he wants as long as he can say it was to protect the country from terrorists, and it immunizes any company he tells to break the law (even retroactively…hello Blackwater and KBR) if he says it was to protect the country. “If the government tells you to do something, ah you better do it”. (Kit Bond talking about the FISA compromise).

    If you”…don’t feel that is an intolerable burden to put on Americans” then you’ll love our new banana republic and welcome to the new world order…my friend.

  • Hey Obama, you might want to hold off on rejecting public financing if you keep acting like this. Might want to give those 527’s a call too. You’ll need’em.

  • I think there are a lot of people leaving comments who are not true Obama suppporters. I think we have some Hillary folks who are looking for a “gee Hillary would have been better point” and some McCain folks who are trying to fuel a small fire.

    I think you’re wrong. Blue Girl and Mary are diehard Hillary supporters (and how anyone could think AUMF/Kyl-Lieberman/flag-burning/everything I listed in #55 Hillary would have been any better on this topic is a mystery), and a couple of other people here are McCainiacs. But most of what you’re seeing here is genuine, pure rage at from Obama voters at Obama joining the crowd of sellouts in the House.

    Most of us never thought he was a saint. Many of us–certainly including me–expected shit like this. But that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t make us furious when it happens.

    the thing that is also missing from this discussion that makes this issue different is that the dems control the house. this bill never needed to come to the floor.

    Exactly right. And there was no reason for it to come now, no reason for it to last five years…just no reason at all. We have been screwed but good, and I’d rather be in a thread like this in which people are expressing well-earned anger than to listen to the “Yawn, y’all are so naive; we always knew this was going to happen” pseudo-cynical crap you get at a lot of other blogs.

  • Given that political reality, what could he do? He makes a noble speech, stands on principle, and fails. — TR, @35

    I might have, *might have* accepted that argument, if he didn’t make that “noble speech”, just kept quiet and simply voted against it. I would still have been pissed off — because it is now (supposedly) his party and he can shout if he wants to — but, after a few days, I might have calmed down.

    But, coming out *in support*? That’s above and beyond the call of cautious politics and will take *a lot* to forgive. I’m still at outs with Jim Webb — for the lesser sin of just voting to “fix” FISA — and its been almost a year.

  • The reality of politics is that one has to win the election to have any hope to be able to change things, which means (sorry, you idealists and neo-romantics out there) one has to pick one’s battles wisely in order to win the larger war. That is, with a one or two seat majority in the U.S. Senate (which is our responsibility, or ‘fault,’ as voters, not Harry Reid’s or Barak Obama’s) in context with the 60 vote rule, the Dems are limited, and in effect often easily stymied by the minority. This is to say, have some faith (I know, after the last few years that’s asking alot, but . . .).

    If Obama wins in November, and we get a 55 or (praise Shiva) 60+ vote Dem majority in the senate, then this FISA vote (along with many of the past twelve years of Republican policy) will be more or less moot. While, emotionally, I also wanted Obama and the Dem leadership to ‘stand up and fight to the last vote’ over such a fundamental value as the Fourth Amendment, at this time its simply not realistic, or smart, to expect them to risk all to sacrifice long-term strategic political goals for short-term tactical victories.

    So the FISA ‘compromise’ wins out, for a few months. Yes, it pisses me off, too. Yet, if Obama and Co. win the elections in a big way (by the majority noted above) we can fix that, and the ‘Publicans can spend the next decade beating their thick, square skulls against the hard rock of our thriving constitution.

    Take the long view. Don’t blame Obama for being pragmatic, and wanting to win the war rather than any given legislative battle.

  • But Progressives, don’t get so mad. He loves America. He really really does.

    I really wanted to vote for Obama because he was better, not because McCain is worse.

  • It’s kinda funny. When this comments section was turning pro Obama they were accused of being too idealistic. Now they’re accusing those who are angry at Obama for being too idealistic.

  • But, coming out *in support*? That’s above and beyond the call of cautious politics and will take *a lot* to forgive.

    What libra said. This is not excess caution. This is insanity.

  • Not that it will make any difference, except to make me feel better, I sent the following message to the Obama campaign:

    I’m writing to express my deep disappointment with Senator Obama’s declared support for the flawed FISA bill and its giveaway immunity to the telecom companies.

    The Senator has stated, “But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay.”

    There are two problems with this, in my mind. First, the Bush administration has demonstrated a complete unwillingness to act in the best interests of the country, and it is hard to imagine that this bill will help them do the right thing.

    Second, and more important, it sets a horrible precedent: Bush and the Republicans, in essence, are holding the security of the country hostage in order to gain favors for their corporate friends. Allowing this to proceed would convince future demagogues and corrupt politicians that their interests trump the interests of those they have pledged to serve. The damage that this would cause to our political system in the long term is, I believe, far greater than the aid it would give to the intelligence community in the short term.

    I hope Senator Obama will reconsider his support for this shameful and atrocious bill.

  • Political ennui already, Dale? Gosh, what happened to that Obama-inspired passion for change? Time to grow up, America. This is not MTV, a dream, or some vacuous reality show—it is a serious, often vicious battle for political change in America. It takes guts. And there will be blood.

    Now, who’s with me?

    Obama ’08

  • Someone earlier says that Obama has to run more conservatively for the general election but they’re sure he will be principled after being elected. I’ve got to ask, how would you know if someone is capable of taking a principled stand or not if they don’t do so while running for election?

    Once someone is elected, they immediately start looking at the next election and the need to be reelected. It makes them conservative during their term in the same ways they were during the general election. If Obama were planning to be a single-term president, he might behave differently, but I don’t think that’s his plan, do you? So, he will have ongoing fundraising and vote-getting needs that will drive his actions as president just as they are doing now. I agree with Greg. Why this timing? I’m not sure why he made any statement at all. Is he perhaps trying to prove he is true-blue patriotic and not a secret terrorist-sympathizer by supporting a get-tough on terrorism bill?

  • I sure as hell hope I’m not the only one who sees Obama’s tactic here.

    First off, this new “Act” will sunset in a few years; it’s not permanent—and the telcos will know this.

    Secondly—and this is the biggie, IMHO—giving the telcos immunity as part of a tougher package not only protects them from the lawsuits, but also protects them from self-incrimination, therefore negating any need to “take the 5th” when appearing before future Congressional hearings. Once the Bush/McCain cartel are no longer in power, they’ll be free to spill the beans without any risk of complicity. The little birds (the telcos) sing to their hearts’ collective content, and the big bad vulture (Bush) gets stuck in a cage of his own making.

    This particular cloud, although extremely scary, has a massive silver lining—and the Bush/McCain cartel is too friggin’ stupid to see that their “victory” is nothing more than a tunnel—with the light at the end being an oncoming train….

  • Will there ever be a politician who can tell the people of this country what is actually happening in OUR government, why decisions are made, honest background? Any politicians with courage out there?

  • As a white male independent voter in a swing state, one whose vote
    Obama needs for the upcoming general election, he screwed up royally.
    There needn’t be a compromise on this. Wheres his leadership? Wheres
    his principles? As the Democratic nominee he has no power to cajole the
    Democrats to wait on this? He supports the bill! He just lost several
    independant votes here PA. He’s no different than HRC or McCain. Third
    party voting again.

  • CORRECTION ON#37…I meant “REGINA Thomas and not Helen Thomas is the progressive dem primary challenger to Bush enabler John Barrow R-Georgia.

    My bad. Just so frustrated that Obama didn’t do the obvious right thing.

  • 52. Curmudgeon said: Because we all know what the alternative is, now don’t we?

    Do we? IMO, Bush beating Kerry looked like an unmitigated disaster at the time but it has worked out reasonably well since Bush hasn’t accomplished much in his 2nd term and his inept leadership has been career-ending for many congressional Republicans. I see McCain as the same kind of toxic leader for Republicans despite the media’s love affair with him. I will still vote for Obama, but he has to show me something if he wants me to spend my time and money supporting him because just being a little better than the norm isn’t going to change anything in Washington. He doesn’t have to be transcendent or perfect, but I do expect to see him make an effort to live up to the rhetoric.

  • Dale @ 70

    It’s kinda funny. When this comments section was turning pro Obama they were accused of being too idealistic. Now they’re accusing those who are angry at Obama for being too idealistic.

    Honest people apply the same principles to all politicians.

  • Last time i checked he was still a moderately liberal senator who would be the first black president in our nation’s racially troubled history.

    if the thought of that is not enough to get you to vote for him….then vote Nader and let McCain take a weedwacker to what is left of the nation

  • CB, I disagree about the stripping of the immunity protection. It’s political theater. Obama has already said he will support the measure if it doesn’t happen anyway. By now, you should know better than to trust Reid. Since he became Senate majority leader, he’s been a bigger ally to the GOP than to his own party, constantly permitting and upholding their filibusters, holds, and various other maneuvers to prevent passage of anything, but turning against Dodd and refusing to honor his request to hold the version of this bill that came around last winter. Reid is untrustworthy.

    Obama, on the other hand, it’s like he suddenly wants to lose. He just undercut the entire case he’s been making for himself that caused so many to support him. Now, he’s just another silver-tongued, depressing politician. My vote just went straight from enthusiastic to tepid. The next step is failing to bother voting at all. It’s immensely depressing – as I said in another comment, the most depressing day since Bush’s reelection.

  • I’m more disappointed with the House Dems today than I am with Obama. There was no reason that this thing should have gotten out of the House. It could have been stopped there and wasn’t for no good reasons at all.

    House Dems could have stopped horrid legislation and at the same time saved their candidate from even being put on the spot with this. I can’t stand what the House Dems did today. They are cartoon characters and so uninspiring it defies description.

    I am disappointed in Obama but we have gotten too far down this path to think there’s an alternative to continuing to support him. I will vote in this election and I won’t vote for John McCain. I can only hope that Obama doesn’t have an evil twin that is considering other RATS, (Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia: I didn’t make that up), on the S.C.

    It’s the House Dems who have provided the foundation for this abject disappointment today. I’m going to focus my negative energy on them. I’ll switch to the Senate next week.

  • What will this do to all those young voters who’ve come out in droves to support Obama? The Independents, like me, who have no loyalty to the Democratic party, only to a candidate’s principles?

    I think Obama will lose much of the support he and the Democrats worked so hard to gain. I cannot imagine what possessed him, but his statement is pretty much a mirror of Nancy Pelosi’s statement in support of the bill.

    Bad move. Really bad.

  • Maybe Obama likes this bill and figures he’ll take less heat if the Republicans do it now than he will if he proposes it himself as president. Let them do some of his dirty work.

    Does the immunity sunset when the bill sunsets?

    Steve said:
    This particular cloud, although extremely scary, has a massive silver lining

    “Where did you get this preposterous hypothesis?
    Did Steve tell you that perchance.”
    –Hiphopapotamus

  • I know why he did it, and I will probably continue to support his campaign, but I don’t like it, and I hope he really does push back against the immunity clause

  • Once immunity is given it is done. Ex post facto laws and attainders clause.

    If we believe it does sunset as noted by 2012, then the actions after that point are targetable. But, really, why 2012?

    As I noted to my congressman (Honda) if this was really good policy it could have withstood inspection and debate. It got neither. The corollary would be also that if it is good policy there is no need for a sunset provision based on time alone. What makes anyone think that OBL and his minions will be gone by 2012? Therefore, we will have to go through this again with a newer list of GWOT ™ enemies.

  • you guys who live and die by the words FLIP FLOP… ( I mean you lefty dudes).. wow ..this new Protect America Act…must be a hard pill for you to swallow…of course its ok this bill is better than the last one ..because he is voting for it… talk about following politcal winds…. oh yeah!!!! of course what else flipped today.. oh I remember … obamma said he would do public funding if McCain did as well.. now its “Oh I cant do that there is too much special interest”.. of course what he really meant is “I think I will stay with big oil money instead…”..must be a hard day for the obammacrats… ….this guy flips more the a cheap hamburger at Mc D’s……
    bubba said that…the troll you all love to hate

  • PUMAS stand up and be counted.. here is your chance……

  • I guess there is always hope that Obama’s online donations will dry up over the weekend and he will change his vote because he realizes how much damage it is going to do to his fund-raising.

  • Shalimar @81 said: “IMO, Bush beating Kerry looked like an unmitigated disaster at the time but it has worked out reasonably well since Bush hasn’t accomplished much in his 2nd term and his inept leadership has been career-ending for many congressional Republicans.”

    Worked out reasonably well? 4,000+ dead Americans, countless thousands dead Iraqis, millions of refugees, untold Americans losing their homes, the country in the worst financial state in a generation, gasoline set to hit $5.00 a gallon any day now……

    Yeah, that’s worked out real well, hasn’t it? Seriously, dear, have you not been paying attention at all the last eight years? Time to get serious here. It’s really, really important. Trust me.

  • There’s a real question in my mind about whether Obama wants to be transformative, or merely liked. For me, a lot of the juice about his campaign comes from the — I’d call it a hope more than a belief — that he would not just stop the hemorrhaging, but move us in the right direction. Apparently, he’s just as squirrelly as the rest of them.

    Why do villagers, in order for one to be “one of them”, expect an expansion of Executive Power?

    My greatest fear about someone like Bush is that once the dismantling is done, the Genie can’t be put back in the bottle again — the Genie in this case being the American system of government and justice that was once the envy of the world. It has to be undone by the next President, or we have the Return of the King our forefathers meant to prevent, and by merely not abusing his new powers, Obama only lays the groundwork for the next President — more likely a Republican with each passing election — the leeway to use that power for all it’s worth.

    I have enough faith that Obama will not exploit these powers to not fear that he will use them to solidify a permanent autocracy, but I do not have faith that he will repair the system so that the next Bush can finish the job.

    I don’t want a king. But if it’s going to be a king, then I want it to be a Democrat. Obama either needs to use it or lose it. The worst possible outcome would be for Obama to squander the moment and keep the minefield Cheney and Bush have intentionally left in place, betting on the pretty obvious fact that any Democrat will be too afraid to use it, and too afraid to get rid of it, so that it can incubate long enough for a Republican rebranding to put in office people who have no qualms about finishing the job.

    I don’t want someone who won’t abuse power. I want to restore the system that doesn’t allow our would-be kings to abuse it, because there is no shortage of those who would in politics.

  • I just can’t see him taking an unnecessary beating for something that couldn’t be won. -DebbyeOh

    Rolls eyes.

    Yeah, let’s not stand up for what’s right if we can’t win. That’s the kind of capitulation that has a majority of Democrats in Congress to weak to stand up to the President. That’s the kind of rationalization that gets us into unnecessary and costly wars.

    I guess I’m thankful that the founders of this country didn’t feel like it wasn’t worth fighting an unwinnable battle. Otherwise they might have never tried and certainly would have not won.

    I’m already absolutely nauseated by the depths people will sink to in an effort to defend Obama. He’s wrong on this issue, it’s a major issue, and there is no defense.

    I’m not withholding my little contributions, and I hope you guys will re-consider too. -DebbyeOh

    No deal. He should be happy he still has my vote at this point. I don’t ‘compromise’ when it comes to the Constitution. For the blinder-wearing slack-cutters among us, please, tell me what parts of the Constitution are optional for our Government?

    I think there are a lot of people leaving comments who are not true Obama suppporters. -Doug

    If you mean me in anyway, then you’re new here. I’ve been outspoken in my support for Obama. Probably why the betrayal on a major issue angers me so. I support him, but I won’t make excuses for him.

    Oh well, I guess he can just rely on the fact that most of America isn’t paying attention or wouldn’t understand this issue even if it. Look, he’s wearing a flag pin! And Michele was on The View! Awwww.

    How very Republican of him.

  • Not only that, but the timing of this statement of support was so Washington. Late cycle Friday? Isn’t this the kind of deceptive, dishonest, illusory, oh, never mind. I need a drink.

  • He has lost my trust and here’s why:

    1. He’s using the “grave threats we face” rhetoric to justify an unnecessary compromise of rights we should hold inalienable.

    2. He is helping the Democratic leadership sell this by repeating the false claim that meaningful compromises were negotiated for this legislation.

    3. He engages in wicked spin by heralding that President Bush’s illegal warrantless wiretapping program will be “over.” In fact, it isn’t over, it’s just been made legal and blessed by the Democrats.

    4. I watched for his response to this closely because it bears on HIS executive powers if he wins the election.

    Now I think I have a good idea about him. Great orator, very attractive performance, but when I look at this and add it to his voting record in the United States Senate, I don’t buy him as a reformer.

    It is sad – but my heart has been breaking for eight years. Now I just have to decide what to do with my vote.

  • Barack Obama will run with neither contributions nor enthusiasm from me. I hope he wins, because he’s demonstrably better than John McCain… but nobody should pretend he’s Gandhi or anything. He’s just another scummy politician, smarter than Bush or McCain and with a younger face and a knack for giving speeches.

  • Being an on the fencer ….I have been waiting to see to whom I might vote for…
    I am torn.. I thought Obama might very well be a good choice .. I liked what he said about change.. but I dont see change.. I see just another politician willing to do or say anything to win_I think at least I trust McCain as we know where he stands and what he will do. As far as Obama. I think HRC was the better choice . we knew where she was coming from.. Obama scares me on military as well, I am afraid he will try and please the voters rather than protect the country. I am starting to fall off the fence to the right.

  • I trust McCain as we know where he stands and what he will do.

    Eh? You must be new to this blog, to think that 🙂

    McCain effectively has no positions one way or the other at this point.

  • I spent part of my morning calling my senators, Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell, to urge them to oppose this bill and support a filabuster if someone were brave enough to mount one. I heard that both senators opposed telecomm imunity, but things were lights out non-commital about a filabuster. I also called Chris Dodd’s office to inquire whether he planned to filabuster the bill. No commitment.

    I am not sure what Obama would have to do to make me sit out this election. As I have said many times, 2008 is all about the SCOTUS for me. Appointments to the Court made in the next four years will likely be generational for most and lifetime for me. So, there can be no question for me as to whether I will cast my vote for Obama.

    That said, it was not simply his position on this matter (and I do not think he could have avoided taking a position as the Democratic nominee), it the rhetoric with which he attempted to justify himself. It added a big dollop of disgust on the disappointment sundae of his decision.

    But, as of this moment, which is only one of thousands between now and November, I have no “fire” with which to build a case for him to those who are not inclined to support him. Perhaps I will find my way to “pragmatism” and that will be enough to make me a good advocate for him. I do not know. I have been holding off with new contributions; I suspect I will continue to do so for the time being. But, I am ready to declare neither that I cannot vote for him nor that he will never get another dime from me. I am chastened but not shattered.

  • 62. On June 20th, 2008 at 6:07 pm, Doug said:
    I think there are a lot of people leaving comments who are not true Obama suppporters.

    How wrong you are. If you were here long enough to have a clue who is who here, you would recognize many many many of the names – such as mine – as being long-time Obama supporters since way back when you had to be a crazed true believer to even think of it. Like February 2007, in my case, the day he announced he was running.

    For 30 years I have watched Democrats cave in to Republicans on every item of importance and substance. I just went to the L.A. County Clerk website and requested new registration as an Independent.

    I should have done it years ago.

  • 95. On June 20th, 2008 at 7:31 pm, Curmudgeon said: Worked out reasonably well? 4,000+ dead Americans, countless thousands dead Iraqis, millions of refugees, untold Americans losing their homes, the country in the worst financial state in a generation, gasoline set to hit $5.00 a gallon any day now……

    You assume Kerry would have been able to do something about any of those issues, whereas I don’t. I don’t think Kerry was going to get us out of Iraq quickly, though he probably would have done it by now and saved some lives. On the issues of mortgage collapse, financial collapse and high gas prices, those problems were a time bomb set during Bush’s first term and I don’t think Kerry could have done much to stop it. Meanwhile, he would have been the one in office when the worst came and thus would have gotten the blame. Republicans would have done much better in 2006, we would have most of the same problems today, and we would all be worried about the polls that show Kerry well behind the Republican nominee after 4 years of constant obstruction from a Republican congress.

  • This is a major failure. My enthusiasm and support for Obama has taken a grievous blow… damn…

  • F*CK every congressman and senator who votes for this crap. F*CK every congressman and senator who voted for the Military Commissions Act of 2006.

    Every damn one of them took an oath of office to protect and defend the Constitution.

    If our congressmen and senators believe that they are fighting the ‘war on terror’ by gutting our constitution, may they all rot in hell for selling out our country.

    If Obama votes for this bill, F*CK him. If Obama votes for this bill, I will move from being a strong supporter to a person who will encourage everyone to vote for Bob Barr or Ralph Nader.

  • Of course, this will help the sales of my Democratic Nose Plug which will prevent any olfactory offense while enabling you to vote with both hands.

  • Perhaps the fact I was personally a victim of what governments can do with this sort of power makes me “thin-skinned” on the subject.

    I was a subject of COINTELPRO during the Vietnam War and I was able to get my complete file – the one with the un-blacked-out FBI reports of visiting my father (a government scientist) and father-in-law (a retired Marine working at a conservative bank) to tell them – in front of their coworkers – their son and daughter were engaging in drug-dealing and prostitution to “degrade the military” (when I found this out and asked my father about it, he told me it was the reason he took early retirement from the government).

    My phones were tapped without a warrant from 1966-73 – people used to laugh that I had a sign on my phones “don’t say anything on this phone you wouldn’t say to J. Edgar Hoover” – but I was right.

    I was harassed when I tried to use the GI Bill. All my checks were late, the paperwork on purchase of my first home was delayed and then lost, so I lost the sale. All because the government decided to “punish” me for the crime of believing in the First Amendment.

    This is what governments can do when they are not constrained. These were the kinds of abuses that – when they were revealed – led to the first FISA bill in 1978.

    This is what they can now go back to doing, thanks to Senator Obama and the Democratic Party.

  • The thing is, Bill Clinton never represented himself as anything other than a Blue Dog Democrat from the South. Hillary Clinton has crafted a more interesting role for herself as a centrist who takes positions that start in the center and move leftward. Neither Clinton pretends to be a transformative miracle worker who will fix everything broken in our poor system. They are career politicians and take pride in their work.

    In contrast, from his first appearance in politics, Senator Obama has affected an oratorical stance of making great change while sticking to safe, politically expedient actions. He takes credit for the good works of others, and he represents sleazy political horsetrading as transformative change. He is first and last an ambitious politician. Get used to it.

    I continue to regret that the mandarins and “progressives” in the Democratic Party chose the party’s bright prospects in 2008 as an opportunity to decisively defeat the populist wing of the party that, along with Democratic voters, supported Clinton. They chose a fancy untested celeb who advertised, as anyone who listened could hear, that he would as President concentrate on the “big picture” and “mobilizing the people” while the mandarins ran the country old-pol-style. And I regret that Obama supporters like the commenters above chose to go along with “change because he says so,” not taking the trouble to seriously check the facts behind the oratory. I am sorry if they are now feeling let down, but the problem is not Obama but the “progressive” wing of the party that should have resisted the chance to grab internal power and stuck to our issues – like FISA and telecom immunity. We can wail about the sellout, but we don’t have a presidential vehicle to carry us forward.

  • Wow, Obama. That sure is some change I can believe in. Chicken shite.

    And WTF is Polisi/Hoyer thinking bringing this bill up for a vote before the election? Can someone impeach Pelosi and Hoyer?

  • So, what IS HRC’s position on this?

    Crickets, just like her leadership. She, like Obama, has the opportunity now to stop this in the Senate. It will only take a week of delays to squash this, since once the Senators get back into their states the grassroots will spank them silly. While it’s nice to have the money, they will never pass up votes.

    Nice try.

  • Oh and wanted to clarify one point. I support Obama. And I am not so naive to think that he was not forced into this by Pelosi and Reid. But dang it is the Constitution for goodness sakes. And him giving his word when he’s President just does not make my heart go pitter patter.

    More better Democrats and all but I just fear that there will not be much of our democracy left by the time we get them elected.

    Going to have a cold beverage and not think about what a shame Democrats are today. And pick up the torch tomorrow. The fools win again….for now.

  • I am new to this site but I see total chaos, and blind loyalty. I think this is just because of the hatred of the other side. I am not going to vote on that premis. McCain is no better or no worse as far as I can see and I am not saying I will vote for him but I am not a sheep either. It seems like there is a herd mentality here however. Sorry to bother your blog I will move on where open discussion is welcomed. IMHO just because you say it on this blog doesnt make it true.
    good bye…

  • I am new to this site but I see total chaos, and blind loyalty. -Sara

    Yeah, everything is in total random lockstep! Saratroll, you know, you can’t have chaos and blind loyalty simultaneously. They are contradictory states.

  • Listen to all the chaos here, “new to this site, fXXX all the congressman, Pelosi forced him to do it.
    .. the CIA wire tapped my phone and held my GI checks.. not true Obamma supporters”
    .
    …..I am LMAO….oh my Lord I have reached nirvana..
    this is too good to be true. This sounds like a Rush Operation Chaos board meeting here…..you guys are the best….
    bubba said that…..

  • I said:
    This particular cloud, although extremely scary, has a massive silver lining

    To which Dale said:
    Where did you get this preposterous hypothesis?

    To which I must reply:
    Did you read my entire post, or are you doing the cherry-picking FOXtrot?

    Think about this for a minute or three; it’s not as if you don’t have the time to do so. Sure, it looks on the face of it as though he sold out, but the bill they’re passing now is better than the one Bush demanded, and it gives the telcos a stay-out-of-the-fire card that guarantees them to be free from any consequences that could arise from their cooperation in 2009—when Congress can paraphrase Caesar:

    ALL ROADS LEAD TO BUSH

    You and I both know that the telcos won’t give a rat’s backside about what happens to Bush after he’s out of office. He’ll be like a live rabbit at the dog races—and there’s no safe cage for him to hide in after his term is up.

    Bush is doing this deal for the telcos because he thinks he can buy their eternal allegiance—but once he’s no longer president, he’s just another empty suit. No power to get back at the telcos once they’re immune. And we won’t be able to threaten to “spill the beans” on all the bad things they did for him—because they’ll be able to do that now without fear of any retribution. And they will sing about themselves before the subcommittees, because it’ll be good PR to come clean to the American people, and they’ll be an integral part of filling in the hole after Bush gets thrown in.

    Is it the best-case scenario? No—people should have been allowed to sue these pigs clean out of the Universe for what they did—but cutting the little fish a deal in exchange for a chance to get the big fish later might just be worth the cost.

    In the end, the telcos just drove the getaway car. Bush is the one who put a gun to the Law and pulled the trigger. If we’re going to hand someone, wouldn’t it be better to hang the bastard who murdered the Constitution, instead of his stupid henchmen?

  • Folks, lets slow down, think about this and take a deep breath….

    Ok, yes, it sucks and it looks like Obama didnt stick up for this bill and what it means. Did you guys actually read what he wrote?

    Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President’s illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over.

    Thats just one thing that I found specific that is good. If fighting it out would have delayed the bill from putting a stop to Bushs bullshit with making laws on the fly, then Im all for what he did. The immunity issue can be dealt with later. I believe it was important to put safeguards in place to prevent more abuse of the 4th.

    If he had stood up and fought this, the Right would have beat him with the “weak on terror and defending America” stick. As it is, he took that stick away and basically said he would fight again another day. I dont have a problem with that as he will be coming from a much stronger position and along with Reid, it may be a more specific position that he can use as its one issue, rather than the whole bill. Anyway, my .02

  • i say this not in gloating, because Obama is my nominee and he has my support, but i should hope people are at least a little circumspect about the tarnishing they gave Clinton on Obama’s behalf around here. this is exactly the kind of move-to-the-center vote she was slaughtered for. the only difference is she made a tactical error by doing it too early; he waited until he was the nominee (or, put differently, she ran honestly as someone who would do this, he hid it until it was too late for primary voters).

    but those above who have put the blame at Reid’s and Pelosi’s feet have it exactly right. part of being in party leadership is to fall on the sword now and then for the candidate, to be the blocking back so he can run for touchdowns untouched. you know the Republicans would have found a procedural way when they ran the House – why can’t we ever seem to work the procedural levers of power? Obama should never have been put in this position.

    a couple of people above have suggested, i think naively, that this legislation is “temporary” – not in the sense of a 2012 sunset, but in the sense of “President Obama and a 60-vote Democratic Senate will undo it.” Nonsense. There aren’t 51 Democratic Senators who have shown in any way that they even dislike this bill. Now we can add Obama to the list of those we aren’t really sure about. This bill will pass, and it will remain in effect, because key Democratic leaders and committee chairs knew about the surveillance program and in the wake and mood of 9/11 consented, and once the fog of war (or in this case the mists of misdirection) lifted, those Dems were screwed because it was too late to go back. They are willing to let BushCo off the hook to cover their own asses.

  • Dear Senator Obama,

    A knock on your candidacy has been that you lack experience. Your counter has been, as I have seen and read, that your judgement more than compensates for this shortcoming. I have always been willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I think you’ll agree with me sir, that at some point, the rubber has to meet the road, at some point, rhetoric will have to substantiated by action. I think sir, that this day, provided that opportunity, and on this day, sir, you failed utterly to meet that challenge.

    Sincerely,

    Me

  • Steve@118,

    Just what is going to motivate the telcos to tell the truth about what the Bush administration did? Their desire to ‘fess up and admit that they spilled the private information about their customers without a warrant?

    You can take this as certain: with telco amnesty the truth about how our rights were violated will never be known. If they come clean, they’ll just be opening themselves up for reprisals. Under the bill that was just passed by the house, any hearings will all take place in secret, under rules that are stacked for their side, rules that do not even allow the public to look at the evidence.

    How you think this will bring things to light is completely beyond my comprehension.

  • Ok, yes, it sucks and it looks like Obama didnt stick up for this bill and what it means. Did you guys actually read what he wrote?

    Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President’s illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. — Are you kidding me, @ 120

    Except that it’s pure BS. Under the New! Improved! FISA, Bush will no longer have to show “reasonable suspicion” to get a permission from the FISA court; fishing expeditions will be fine. What’s more, those fishing expeditions won’t have to be targeted; ie, the spooks will be allowed to use humongous nets instead of a fishing rod. This new bill stops warrantless surveillance only in so far that a warrant to spy on *everyone* will be a piece of cake to obtain.

    I suggest everyone should see a German film, “Other People’s Lives”, to get an idea of what government-sponsored wiretapping is like and what it does to people. I wonder if Obama had seen it; he’ supposed to be a film buff…

  • OhKKKKKKKKKKKKK…….in reality…. how does this bill violate the constitution. This is a war. like it or not.. The UNited STates is envolved in a war. this is not the first time that monitoring has been used. In world war two military mail was totally censored to make sure someone did not willfully or otherwise pass on sensitive information.. phone calls in and out of the US were monitored., why ???because it was necessary to protect the good ole USA…. this should be understandable to even cretans like yall… Ok so this takes us back to this kind of premission for the gov’t spooks to monitor phone calls and shXt. Well I dont have a problem with it at all , these are supposed to be overseas…(that means not here on US soil) calls only. Who cares if they do that if it helps protect me when I sleep at night. I am glad someone stays up late and thinks this kind of crap up, so I dont have to. My job is just to esplane it to you guys to make you feel all warm and comfy.. How may times do you think in the last few years that maybe this kind of monitoring maybe diverted another attack on our people.. I say OUR PEOPLE I mean you dudes and dudetes as well. You will probably say that it didnt do a thing, or the more paranoid will say that the govt tapped your phones here in country.. well you might want to reinforce the tinfoil in the attic so you can keep the mind police out… seriously how can it violate our constitution when it pertains to badguys on the other side of the world.. anyway thats my take on the whole deal.. ok.. now lets unload on ole dumb troll Bubba and tell him what a ingrate and rights giverupper that he is…. I can take it go ahead….
    Bubba Said That…

  • Okay, I just spent the whole day working in a factory with 100 other souls and not one of them mentioned Obama’s support of the FISA “compromise.” No one even mentioned Obama, let alone FISA. I know that this is an important issue, but I’m not sure it’s on the front burner for most folks. Hell, it’s probably not even on the stove.

    That said, TR and Mighty Blue are making sense. There’s no reason for Obama to take a hit at this time when there is no benefit. Asking Obama to stand on principle in this case is a luxury that we cannot afford. We have to win in November. There’s too much else at stake. I just donated $50 to the campaign.

  • Today is the H of R’s 2000 Supreme Court moment. The day the scales fell away and you realize that you are on your own. There is no there there and it’s a mirage and a malicious one at that. It doesn’t matter how many of them are Dem’s. It doesn’t matter who is president. It doesn’t matter who the speaker is or how many phone calls and faxes and e-mails and prayers and curses and threats are offered. The allegiance of the entire gov’t of the U.S. of A. is not to the citizens of this country but to the billions of dollars controlled by the corporations that tell our “gov’t” to jump and it asks, “How high please?”

    Our “gov’t” is boring. It’s stupid and has no ideas and it’s sole purpose is to keep the corporations safe and the CEO’s rich and safe and The Rich rich and safe and to absorb the disgust of the general population so none of it touches the corporate fat cats and their wives, concubines and children.

    The congress of the U.S. does not give a shit about the citizens of the U.S. Look at what they’ve done and accomplished on behalf of the citizens of this country. Ca-Ca. We hope and cajole and give 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th…(should I stop, should I go on, does it f’n matter), chances hoping that they are going to wake up but they aren’t going to. They are in thrall to corporate money and they are mesmerized and they are useless.

    I don’t know what the solution is but depending on the duly elected jokes that take up space in the seats of congress isn’t going to get us anywhere.

    The congress of the United States sucks like a 10,000 H.P. Shop Vac. They suck worse than that.

    Thanks for letting me rant on your blog Mr. CB.

    Signed:

    A Pilsner Urquell and two, (soon three? Absolutely! Is that a pun?), Vodka Tonics.

  • are you kidding me? @ 120:

    The immunity issue can be dealt with later. I believe it was important to put safeguards in place to prevent more abuse of the 4th.

    With all due respect, the immunity can’t be dealt with later. Once in place, it’s locked … no ex post facto laws, remember? (And we really don’t want to muck with that.) On the other hand, the bill as written does nothing to rein in Bush’s tendency toward illegality. You know how you combat a criminal kingpin? You make people unwilling to work with him for fear of consequences. The telecoms have sinned here, and need to face punishment if only to convince them to think twice about doing it again. Plus, civil lawsuit discovery is likely the only way light will be shed on the crimes of the Bush cabal, so you’re also taking away governmental accountability.

    If he had stood up and fought this, the Right would have beat him with the “weak on terror and defending America” stick. As it is, he took that stick away and basically said he would fight again another day.

    Like they’re not going to beat that drum anyway? He didn’t take any stick away because — you know what? — he can’t. They can say any outlandish thing they want. Obama’s success, on the other hand, has been in meeting such challenges head-on and — by speaking to Americans like we’re worthy of our democracy — doing jujitsu on the rabid Right, turning their attack into a muddle and his supposed weakness into a strength. He has not in general run away from the issue, which is what he did here. Isn’t the clearest lesson of the past 8 years exactly “You cannot escape the tar of the rabid Right by trying to appease them”. Nothing a Democrat does (not even personally finding and seizing Osama bin Laden) can satisfy the wingnuts.

    You can’t win playing their game. But that’s exactly what the Senator is doing.

  • I agree completely Bernard and add that the most bitterly disappointing part of this whole thing is that Obama has loss this round in exactly the way that Dems always lose these battles. He reinforced the Republican’s unbelievably lame tropes about the necessity of these ridiculous measures and the desirability of “compromise” which in these contests is really just another word for capitulation. This was a moment when he could have stepped up and challenged those well worn Republican tropes and proved he could change the discourse around these issues. He decided that he didn’t even want to try.

    For all those who believe that an Obama win will change the calculus on this, that he will all of a sudden be in a position to actually do something differently than he did today and will use that power to change the configuration, I will bet you anything you like that you are wrong.

    I will still vote for him. Eventually, after my anger has worn off, I will probably get back to doing some work to get the man elected. But make no mistake about it. This was his moment. He could have shown us something about how to attack these issues differently and he absolutely, definitively failed to do so. I believe, at the very worst, it would have cost him very little to at least make a strong statement against this bill. Even that small gesture would have earned some respect from a lot of the people who are angry here today. Instead, decided, as Dems always do, to give in to craven political cowardice.

    The stakes will be higher from here on in, especially when he is President. He has shown us what we can expect. You can take it to the bank.

    Better than McCain? Sure. Much better. A vessel for changing the calcified and corrupted apparatus of Washington politics in the context of empowering our Democratic principles? Not so much. This scenario has put paid to that and I am willing to take bets if anyone disagrees.

  • Just what the flip were you expecting? What universe or parallel world have you been living in or occupying that you actually thought Barack Obama would stand up and fight against this? I’m serious. What reality are you living in?

    Instead of following any of the telecom money, you’ve been busy patting yourselves on the backs for finally supporting an AA “progressive” nominee for POTUS. Oh, yeah, and calling anybody who didn’t support him racists because we have questioned his lack of courage and conviction on lots of issues (Iraq, choice, oil bill, class action lawsuits, lobbyists, choice of SCOTUS nominees, 911 Recommendations…).

    This would be hilarious (and it is, sorta, on a personal level) if it weren’t so completely pathetic.

    I’d tell you to prepare for lots of future cave-ins by your hero/god, but, oh I’ve already tried to do that…several.times. Why do you think it is that he has ducked votes in the Senate, except those that gain him publicity?

    Wow! He’s a politician. Imagine that. The image you see is just that: an image created by David Axelrod.

  • Just what is going to motivate the telcos to tell the truth about what the Bush administration did? Their desire to ‘fess up and admit that they spilled the private information about their customers without a warrant?

    Profit, Charles—profit. The bottom line. Market share is the single most powerful force behind controlling the telcos. Sure, they can stay in business with immunity—but all the immunity in the world couldn’t make me spend a dime on Verizon or ATT. Bush can’t make me do business with them; the Congress can’t make me; the Supreme Court can’t make me.

    They can’t make anyone do business with them—but even with an immunity law, they can’t silence opinions of what they did. Look at all the stuff being heaped on Obama right now, in this one thread alone, and then show me where all of these people voiced an equal amount of disgust at ATT and Verizon in an equal amount of time.

    It doesn’t exist—but—it should.

    And if it did exist, these companies would be tripping over each other to spill their secrets out before Congressional investigations. They’d fight like rabid cats to out-do each other—because their market share—the very thread of their survival—would depend on it.

    In addition, I keep looking at the “meat” of this retroactive immunity issue, and it looks like it’s limited to the telcos. Am I missing something here—or did the Bushylvanians forget to put in retroactive immunity—from criminal prosecution—for themselves?

    And the retroactive immunity only protects the telcos from what they did in the past. They can’t hide behind their “5th” anymore—and if they decide they don’t want to cooperate in the future, then all sorts of little “Pandora’s boxes” open up on them. Contempt, obstruction of justice, accessory to organized criminal activity—that list goes on for quite a while.

    Retroactive Immunity only saves them from what they did—it doesn’t give them a blank check to do it again in the future.

    And one more thing, if I might add it—all the anti-Obama rhetoric that’s going on here is going to be turned into anti-Obama commentary by McCain’s 527 groups within 48 hours of my typing these very words. THAT is something you can count on….

  • 120. Are you kidding me? said: Ok, yes, it sucks and it looks like Obama didnt stick up for this bill and what it means. Did you guys actually read what he wrote?
    “Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President’s illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over”.

    You do understand that the reason the President’s illegal program will be over is because Congress is legalizing almost everything Bush has done, right?

  • I suppose this is where I say, ‘I told you so,’ in that Obama is not some sort of new type of Democrat or a strong-line liberal or leftie

  • In addition, I keep looking at the “meat” of this retroactive immunity issue, and it looks like it’s limited to the telcos. Am I missing something here—or did the Bushylvanians forget to put in retroactive immunity—from criminal prosecution—for themselves?

    LOL. Look Steve, I admire your optimism. I do. But the Bush Administration no longer has anything to fear on this issue. They will never face even the possibility of the slightest inconvenience of testifying on this from President Obama or anyone else. If we ever find out what they did, which is, to say the least, highly unlikely, there is not going to be some political will to go after the former President for behavior that we have now explicitly legalized.

    Going after the telcoms will be a similar issue. Politicians don’t waste their time going after issues that they have already decided are no big deal and have essentially legalized. If they wanted the telcoms, they deliberately threw away their best chance at doing so. There was no reason for the Dems to do this if they didn’t want it to go away. Why you believe that anything is going to radically change their position on that is a complete mystery to me. Hell, half the people here are already finding rationalizations to let them off the hook for their shameful behavior on this.

    The idea that telcoms have something to fear with respect to their profits behind this mess are really just a sad joke. Effectively boycotting telcoms is one of the most difficult things in the world to do because to many people depend upon phone and internet service in contexts where they have very limited choices. There will be no effective boycott of the telcoms but hey, if you want to get one started, I am happy to join you. I have a cable modem.

    So, really Steve, I would not hang any hopes on this proceeding beyond next week. You’re only setting yourself up for tremendous disappointment.

  • I wrote a letter yesterday to Obama’s campaign headquarters expressing my disappointed with his decision: There were three huge issues for me in this election: Iraq War, dismantling of the Geneva Convention and the illegal wiretaps!

    I had intended to be active in his campaign at the local level; but now there will be no knocking on doors, no bumper stickers, no yard signs, no registering new voters and no money. The leader of the democratic party, Obama has caved in with the rest of the spineless, gutless,leaderless, clueless, democrats, to the lame duck administration of Bush/Cheney, and corporate America.

    I’m going to become a spectator in this 08 election.

  • There’s no reason for Obama to take a hit at this time when there is no benefit. -AK Liberal

    I’m so very disappointed that so many regulars are making this weak argument.

    I’ve yet to see one of them give a decent argument why fighting for the fourth amendment isn’t a fight worth having, even if you think you are going to lose?

    Because he’s scared of being labeled soft on terrorism? I thought that was an argument Obama welcomed.

    I guess not.

    Same you can believe in.

    We have to win in November. -AK Liberal

    There’s no such thing. No matter what, we lose in November. We lose in June. We always lose, and AT&T and Wal*Mart always win. Thanks for donating, though, you’re helping insure that any power we have (cash) doesn’t actually influence his position. I’m sure Obama the telecoms are thankful for your support.

    I’m sick of the rationalizers. Don’t any of you have principles? Or are you afriad the government is already spying on you and you don’t want to make waves?

    Now is the time to have this fight. Not when you feel like dealing with it later, or when Obama gets around to it. He had a chance to come down on the side of privacy and the public, but he came down on the side of Bush and the corportocracy, and all you can do is make excuses.

    This isn’t a sporting event. This has real consequences. Eight years of the Bush administration trouncing the constitution just got the Democrat’s seal of approval. Have the decency to muster up an ounce of indignation or at least fake it while you pretend Obama isn’t one of the pigs editing the rules so he can be more equal than others.

  • Okay, I just spent the whole day working in a factory with 100 other souls and not one of them mentioned Obama’s support of the FISA “compromise.”

    I know that this is an important issue, but I’m not sure it’s on the front burner for most folks. -AK Liberal

    Oh, it’s okay to trample our rights if the mindless masses don’t know? What a fucking weak ass argument.

    We know, and we’re the people who donate, we’re the people who volunteer, we’re the people who get out and knock on the doors, and we’re the people he has to thank for his nomination.

    He’d better reconsider public financing unless he’s counting on a majority of the base being unprincipled rationalizers who don’t care if the constituion is used to wipe someone’s ass as long as that ass is someone from their ‘team.’

  • For fuck’sake–9/11 is an inside job. So, according to Neocon-Putsch thug Michael Reagan, I should be executed as a “traitor”.

    Watch 9/11: Press for Truth, the story of the patriotic “Jersey Girls,” the widows of 9/11 victims who successfully lobbied for the creation of the 9/11 Commission (only 30% of their questions were even humored with an answer by the 9/11 Commission) and start your awakening.

  • I want to share my response to an email a friend sent, in which he announces he will no longer support Obama because of yesterday’s statement.

    Guess what? This pisses me off as much as anyone, but reading this and a sample of the comments on Carpetbagger pisses me off a whole lot more. “He just lost my vote.” “I won’t send him another penny.”

    Do you want another four years of Bush? Really? Is that what you want? Because that’s what you are going to get if you don’t suck it up and deal. If you wait for the perfect candidate, you will die in a Fascist America. There is no perfect candidate, and to believe otherwise is insufferably naïve, which is something we can’t afford the luxury of right now. As Al Gore said in his speech earlier this week, the fate of the planet depends on the outcome of this election.

    Obama represents the last, best hope that we can start to fundamentally change the basis of our economy before the global environment is irreparably damaged. If McCain wins, we get to borrow money from China to pay for an unending war for a resource that will destroy the global ecosystem. We will bear responsibility for the destruction of entire nations, and the death of millions. Which is more important? A constitutional principle, or the future of humanity? We don’t have the time to be pitching hissy fits over our favourite causes. If we fail to act, the blood of millions will be on our hands. My biggest fear is that I will be an old man and young people will ask me why I didn’t do more.

    If you’re ok with that, fine. I have a big problem with it. For me, it’s a moral and spiritual issue.

  • “Are You Kidding Me” back at #120 told us to take a deep breath and pointed to this part of Obama’s statement as positive:

    Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President’s illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over.

    To which I say – are you kidding me? This is one of the things that angered me most about the statement: this spin. Sure, the illegal program is over – because it’s been made legal. The Democrats have simply taken an impeachable crime, and codified it with Obama’s blessing.

    Pffft. He’s just another stinking Democrat with a slightly better than average act.

  • I dunno, Pete, I think it is unnecessary and deeply sad that we have been whipped into believing the alternative we DARE consider is voting for a dishonest and ineffective Democratic party.

    How many years have intelligent voters bewailed the lack of choices and always having to choose the lesser of two unsatisfactory knaves?

    Why don’t we do something about 2-party rule by 2 unfit parties?

  • O-bomb-a/McAIPAC ’08!

    “The danger from Iran is grave, it is real, and my goal will be to eliminate this threat…” -O-bomb-a

  • A @ 142. You miss my point. We don’t have time. There are more urgent issues than telecom immunity.

    FWIW, I would like to see Obama announce a truth & reconciliation committee, to investigate crimes committed by the Bush administration.

  • There are more urgent issues than telecom immunity. -PeteCO

    There is no more urgent issue than the rule of law and protecting the Constitution. Pray tell, what would you place higher?

    And why can’t we expect a little multitasking? This isn’t binary. They can work on this issue and whatever else you think takes precedent at the same time.

    FWIW, I would like to see Obama announce a truth & reconciliation committee, to investigate crimes committed by the Bush administration. -PeteCO

    Don’t you understand that giving the telecoms immunity will stop the investigation into who Bush spied on and why? Supporting this ‘compromise’ is a gift to Bush (and don’t give me any naive bullshit about opposing the immunity clause because we’re all smarter than that).

    I hate this ‘we don’t have time,’ bullshit. We don’t have time for impeachment, we don’t have time for the rule of law, we don’t have time for the Constitution. Steroids in baseball? Plenty of fucking time for that.

  • Why don’t we do something about 2-party rule by 2 unfit parties? -Algernon

    With Democrats like these, two parties would be an improvement.

  • Repeal FISA is up and running. Anyone who wants to is welcome to sign up and become a Poster on it. The purpose of the blog is to organize a drive to repeal the FISA laws and all laws that pardon or give immunity from prosecution anyone who has violated the Constitution during the Bush Administration.

    That is why we want everyone to be able to Post so they can start a conversation about an idea they have to make this happen.

    Stop on by and check it out. By all means leave a comment and sign up to blog with us as we figure out what needs to be done to return our Fourth Amendment Rights and our rule of law.

    If you have a blog already and you become a poster we will link to your site.

    http://repealfisa.wordpress.com/

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