Thursday’s Mini-Report

Today’s edition of quick hits.

* Not surprisingly, Bush didn’t waste any time: “President Bush signed a bill Thursday that overhauls rules about government eavesdropping and grants immunity to telecommunications companies that helped the U.S. spy on Americans in suspected terrorism cases. He called it ‘landmark legislation that is vital to the security of our people.'”

* Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.), a leading opponent of the “compromise” FISA bill, told Rachel Maddow that the surest way to correct the Senate’s mistake is to elect Barack Obama and have him work with a Democratic Congress to set things right.

* The Hill: “The Senate on Thursday nearly unanimously confirmed Gen. David Petraeus as the new commander of the U.S. Central Command and Gen. Ray Odierno, President Bush’s pick as the top U.S. military commander in Iraq. Sens. Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.) and Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) opposed the confirmation of Petraeus, while only Harkin opposed Odierno.”

* Conspiracy theorist concerned about Obama’s campaign plane the other day can rest easy: “[T]he NTSB reported, ‘examination of the hardware did not reveal any evidence of missing components, nor any evidence of tampering.’ Instead, it appears a strange — but perfectly legitimate and unsuspicious — malfunction is at hand.”

* I’m pretty sure Dems have the votes to beat this: “President Bush will stand by his longstanding threat to veto Medicare legislation passed by the Senate Wednesday, the White House confirmed. The veto will set up override votes in the House and Senate, where the legislation passed with more than the two-thirds majority needed to overcome the president’s rejection.”

* Speaking of the White House opposing good bills, the House approved a measure to provide housing assistance to homeless veterans. Bush opposes the measure because it requires “builders of veterans housing to pay employees prevailing wage,” and we can’t have that.

* Did Iranian officials tamper with the photograph of their missile test yesterday? It looks like it.

* Good: “House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Thursday shut the door on expanding oil and gas drilling beyond areas that have already been approved for energy exploration, drawing a clear distinction from her counterparts in charge of the Senate.”

* You know what Alaska really needed? Another allegedly corrupt Republican official under indictment.

* Why it’s amusing that Mitt Romney speaks French.

* ABC’s Charles Gibson did an entire segment last night on “flip-flops” with John McCain, but it never occurred to him to ask about any of McCain’s 61 reversals. Imagine what our democracy would be like if the media wasn’t so awful….

* Good: “From Rose Mary Woods’ tape recordings in the Nixon White House to Karl Rove’s e-mails during the Bush administration, congressional investigators and political historians are forever seeking records of White House communications, often against the wishes of the sitting president. Hoping to boost their efforts, the Democratic-controlled House moved Wednesday to impose new rules to preserve e-mails from the White House and other federal agencies, acting in defiance of a veto threat from President Bush.”

* Jesse Jackson is still apologizing.

* Phil Gramm doesn’t speak for John McCain, expect when he speaks for John McCain.

* The Elian Gonzales story was eight years ago. Let it go….

* And finally: “Amigo! Amigo!” Mr. Bush called out cheerily in Spanish when he spotted the Italian prime minister. “How you doing, Silvio? Good to see you!” Um, Mr. President? “Amigo” is Spanish. Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi speaks Italian. Just FYI.

Anything to add? Consider this an end-of-the-day open thread.

John McCain’s foreign policy pronouncements their relationship to neoconservatism are explained at this link.

WIth McCain’s recent foreign policy proclamations, it is becoming more and more clear that McCain offers only an extension of George Bush’s policies.

He really is the McSame

  • “House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Thursday shut the door on expanding oil and gas drilling beyond areas that have already been approved for energy exploration, drawing a clear distinction from her counterparts in charge of the Senate.”

    I think that expanded drilling is going to happen and I think it will be one of the issues that will hurt the Democrats this fall.

    The sooner the Democrats reach some kind of deal, the better the deal will be. If the Democrats go for all or nothing, there is a good chance that we will end up with a republican bill that would not be helpful

  • Good: “House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Thursday shut the door on expanding oil and gas drilling beyond areas that have already been approved for energy exploration, drawing a clear distinction from her counterparts in charge of the Senate.” (from The Hill)

    After the FISA “compromise” and pledges to end the Iraq War, do you really believe a single word Pelosi says? I rank her the second biggest liar in D.C., right behind Darth Cheney.

    She has to go.
    http://www.cindyforcongress.org/
    Donate now!

  • I’m pretty sure Dems have the votes to beat this: “President Bush will stand by his longstanding threat to veto Medicare legislation passed by the Senate Wednesday, the White House confirmed. The veto will set up override votes in the House and Senate, where the legislation passed with more than the two-thirds majority needed to overcome the president’s rejection.”

    We know Reid will change his vote. Masters Bush and McConnell will not be denied.

  • Did Iranian officials tamper with the photograph of their missile test yesterday?

    Somebody’s angling for a job on FOX News.

    Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi speaks Italian. Just FYI.

    Elitist.

  • He could conceivably have been saying “amico,” which is Italian. Given that it’s Bush, though, I’m not inclined to extend the benefit of the doubt. That said, having studied both for a few years in high school and college, Italian and Spanish are pretty similar. I’m sure Berlusconi knew what he meant.

  • Wouldn’t it be nice if one of these days, we could wake up to the news that Dems really didn’t give a F*** about a Bush veto, or a signing statement, or a claim of “executive privilege”—and just started arresting these clowns, putting them on a plane, and flying them to a “foreign rendition facility?”

    Tell the Hague to light up that “vancancy” sign!

  • Ummm…”vacancy.” That should say “vacancy”—unless we want to just leave them in an abandoned van somewhere. Maybe northwestern Pakistan….

  • Thank you, Senators Dodd and Feingold, for your efforts to protect the Constitution.

  • Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.), a leading opponent of the “compromise” FISA bill, told Rachel Maddow that the surest way to correct the Senate’s mistake is to elect Barack Obama and have him work with a Democratic Congress to set things right.

    I keep seeing people say this but I don’t understand where it is coming from. Based on everything he has said and done, Obama supports this bill and thinks the powers it provides to the president are good and necessary. What is the indication that he intends to “fix” anything about this crappy bill? I have gradually come to some sort of peace with my opinion that my candidate is on the wrong side of this fundamentally important issue. But this sort of strange insistence that he really dislikes the key spy powers in this bill and has some secret plan to overturn the worst parts of it seems delusional.

  • Agreed with Brent. The only thing an Obama presidency would have done on this would have been to keep the telecom immunity out of it. But while important, that piece is hardly the whole enchilada, and once the bill is signed it can’t be undone (I assume). So the chances of Obama doing anything to fix this, unless he’s facing a HUGE progressive majority in Congress, are slim.

  • BTW CB, how do you find that your “orange” spam filter is working? It is so much easier than the obnoxious catchpha (sp?) that some other sites (*cough* American Prospect *cough*) use.

  • Sen. Feingold’s statement is an amazing dose of naiveté from him. Either that, or he’s trying to pull a fast one. Seriously, look at the excuses we keep seeing about this FISA cave-in. Obama has some sort of secret plan to use the powers judiciously, or not to use them at all, or something like that. Or he’s just delaying his effort to repeal the FISA revision until he’s in office, perhaps. Things like that which don’t make a lick of sense.

    Why didn’t Obama speak up and move against it **now**? It wouldn’t have cost him the election; quite the contrary, it probably would have won him more votes. And as the de facto nominee, he has a great deal more influence than merely comes from his Senate office, so he would have had an easy time drumming up support from other politicians and from the rank-and-file.

    The rationalizations and excuses are all so empty. This isn’t about national security, and Obama promised he would stand firm against this kind of undermining of the Constitution. This really was a terrible move on his part.

  • Sen. Feingold’s statement is an amazing dose of naiveté from him. Either that, or he’s trying to pull a fast one.

    Senator Feingold is not naive. Senator Feingold has been charged with damage control. It sounds like it’s strictly a “Russ, get out there and try to stanch the vote bleeding” thing. And he’ll do it because he knows damned well a McCain presidency would be an unmitigated disaster for every word of the Constitution.

  • “Bush opposes the measure because it requires “builders of veterans housing to pay employees prevailing wage,” and we can’t have that.”

    Of course not. Doesn’t Congress realize we need this money to overpay no-bid contractors
    in Iraq?

  • The Democrat’s FISA debacle demonstrates clearly that the Democratic Party will be deeply divided at its convention. However, the division will no longer be between the supporters of Obama and those of Clinton but between those who are apparently willing to always swerve from principles to get Obama elected our next President and those who may agree on such tactics in several instances but who will eventually “draw a line in the sand of no pasaran” which 28 Democratic Senators did on the FISA bill.
    Senator Obama has become the leader of the first group and it is clear that he has thereby lost his grip on the Democratic Party at least for now. The most prominent members of his group are Bayh, Feinstein, Rockefeller, both Nelsons, and Webb.
    Senator Kennedy was absent. Lieberman, the “Independent Democrat” voted like Obama.
    The second group does not have a leader but among its members are Senators Feingold, Byrd, Biden, Boxer, Clinton, Dodd, Dorgan, Durbin, Kerry, Leahy, Levin, and Schumer. Taken together an impressive array of Senators which can make the political life of a President Obama difficult. This division of the Democratic Party is most likely to persist during an Obama Presidency.
    This division exists not only in the U.S. Senate but also among Democratic voters in general. It can only strengthen Senator Clinton because she voted against the FISA abomination.
    If Senator Obama believes that there will not be any FISA scandals of illegal peeping by some crazies during his administration he lives on a different planet than I do. That shit will hit the fan sooner or later. The chickens will come home to roost, guaranteed.
    I listened to the MSNBC interview of Feingold by Rachel Madden. Yes, he said that he hoped that a President Obama would help revise the current FISA law. However, it was clear to me that he was greatly skeptical that this would happen at all when he stated that “this would be difficult now that the law is in place and that it might actually take a long time before anything would get done.”
    All potential contenders for the 2012 elections, Democratic and Republican, now know that Obama is not always a decisive leader but is regularly a “weak reed” that will bend in the slightest breeze and they, especially the Republicans, will exploit this weakness if and when Obama becomes our next President. The Republicans are already licking their chops when they imagine how they can hold Obama’s feet to the fire after he returns from Iraq.

  • * Why it’s amusing that Mitt Romney speaks French. — CB

    That was *then*. When he was a young and naive idealist. Before he learnt about such things as “French letters” or “French disease”…

  • “Senator Feingold is not naive. Senator Feingold has been charged with damage control. It sounds like it’s strictly a “Russ, get out there and try to stanch the vote bleeding” thing. And he’ll do it because he knows damned well a McCain presidency would be an unmitigated disaster for every word of the Constitution.”

    I suppose that’s a reasonable interpretation, but it seems like a very clumsy form of damage control to me. Feingold should be trying to get the subject away from the FISA revision Obama just voted for, not emphasizing it.

    Or maybe, as one of the leaders of the failed uprising against the FISA revision, he’s chiding Obama slightly. “OK, we lost this one, but if we help you get into office, you’d damn well better work with us on this.”

  • “House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Thursday shut the door on expanding oil and gas drilling beyond areas that have already been approved for energy exploration, drawing a clear distinction from her counterparts in charge of the Senate.”

    Rep Maurice Hinchey of NY state spoke on this on C-Span today, suggesting that the oil companies are not exploring/drilling on those 68 million acres for business reasons (aka profits). He also made the point, that with 2% of the world’s reserves, we ought to be conserving, not squandering our domestic supply.

    And, if we did increase our output by a million barrels a day over the next few years, how would OPEC respond? Probably by reducing production, thereby keeping prices stable (aka market manipulation).

    I still want to know why no one will investigate why the oil companies aren’t exploiting the 68 million acres they already have – of course we know the answer, but why can’t somebody set the record straight officially so this drill/drill/drill crowd doesn’t affect the election? This is a bogus issue, but the public isn’t getting the word. Someone also needs to set the record straight on why we don’t increase our refining capacity. The public thinks it’s because of those dastardly tree-huggers. My understanding is that the oil companies just don’t want to, again, for business reasons, keeping supplies tight.

    Why can’t we have a little truth in this country? Must every single thing coming from our government be a lie? Can’t the media spread facts instead of controversy 24/7?

    How the hell can a democracy survive when there is no such thing as reality anymore?
    Winston Smith had the job of altering recorded history to support the policies of Oceania’s brutal, totalitarian regime . It’s worse here. We haven’t got the foggiest notion of whether anything we read or hear is true, false, made up, spun, pandered or just plain bullshit. Politicians wrap everything they do in the flag, motherhood, God or apple pie when everyone knows everything is done for sex, power or money. It’s just such hypocrisy.

    Yeah, yeah, I know. I’m just whining.

  • Funny how the Dems are so worried about privacy when it comes to FISA but have NO PROBLEM forcing us all to hand over our medical records and care to the government

  • Additionally, I think the Carter presidency proved that it is impossible to conserve our way out of an energy crisis.

  • I suppose that’s a reasonable interpretation, but it seems like a very clumsy form of damage control to me.

    To me as well, but I’m guessing they felt they had to say something sooner rather than later after yesterday’s vote, and he’s speaking directly to the minority of us who give a serious damn about this monstrous piece of legislation. He and Dodd are the most trustworthy figures on this.

    Or maybe, as one of the leaders of the failed uprising against the FISA revision, he’s chiding Obama slightly. “OK, we lost this one, but if we help you get into office, you’d damn well better work with us on this.”

    Sure, I imagine that’s an important piece of it, too.

  • Just in case you read headlines over the next few days like this—French town in nuclear emergency or other news about a uranium spill—don’t get your undies in a bundle. I find it so ironic that the government takes extreme precautions in situations like this because they know there’d be a political firestorm if they didn’t and it was found out later. Yet when they do go public and take these precautions they get the firestorm anyway even if nobody’s been injured. As near as I can tell from reading several articles about this, the uranium was NOT enriched, so even if it contained as much uranium 235 as normal ore (0.7%), the total amount that could possibly have made it into the river would have been about half a pound. That’s about the same amount that a typical coal-fired power plant dumps into the environment every 2 days, every day of the year. And unlike in this case, where the uranium was quickly diluted and washed downstream, the coal ash heaps are mounded all over and leaching steadily into their surroundings. The vast majority of the uranium would have been U238, which would be essentially harmless. They use the stuff in sailboat keels, airplanes, and for shooting at brown people to fight over their oil. This is another classic case of anti-nuke hysteria, the ignorant leading the blind. The German environment minister said that it’s no small matter when “active uranium” is released into the environment. As opposed to passive uranium? Go chase the coal barons if you’re concerned about uranium in the environment. Or better yet, go read up on the Linear Non-Threshold concept.

  • Aaron said:
    Funny how the Dems are so worried about privacy when it comes to FISA but have NO PROBLEM forcing us all to hand over our medical records and care to the government

    The government keeps our tax records so secure that even the INS can’t use tax records to find employers of illegal aliens. I trust the government a lot more than I trust the insurance industry — especially after the FISA debacle where corporate bribes contributions were were used to obtain amnesty from Congress for telecomm companies after they broke the law.

    Buy the way, how much would it cost illegal immigrants to get Bush and the Republicans to demand that they be granted amnesty?

  • hark said:
    I still want to know why no one will investigate why the oil companies aren’t exploiting the 68 million acres they already have ,,,,

    I don’t know hark. I’m sure there’s
    $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
    a reasonable explanation why no one
    $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
    in either Congress or in the corporate-
    $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
    controlled media will look into the issue.
    $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $

  • Aaron clearly lacks the educational equipment to remember that Carter’s energy crisis was actually Nixon’s energy crisis, affectionately known as the ’73 Oil Embargo.

    August, 1971: The United States (under Nixon’s first administration) unilaterally pulled out of the Breton Woods Accord, withdrawing the USD from the Gold Exchange standard. This caused the dollar to “float” and, eventually, sink—taking with it the price of oil. Nixon sought to partially compensate for this by increasing export prices to the ME, which, when coupled with the deep-discount provision of the Israeli military, effectively told OPEC member-nations that they would subsidize Israel’s actions against its opponents during the Ramadan war.

    So—Arab nations get less for their oil, pay more for wheat and refined petrochemicals (wheat prices alone went up 300%), and are told matter-of-factly that they’re paying for Israel’s military (which included the initial core of Israel’s nuclear program). Led by the Shah of Iran, OPEC retaliated by using oil as a weapon—hence the ’73 embargo, which caused the initial tremors that eventually led to the financial crisis during the Carter years.

    So it’s funny how Aaron is so worried about Carter’s crisis, but has NO PROBLEM covering up for a typical Republican crook who caused the whole damned mess in the first place.

  • yeah, steve @28. and they’ve been using oil as a weapon against us ever since. thanks tricky dick

  • Remember how we were told (by AP) that pet owners preferred McCain? Remember how Mary took it to mean that the more compassionate and responsible people — those who were likely to *care* about living critters — were onto Obama and his callous ways? Well… Today, there’s this, from http://www.electoral-vote.com :

    The AP had a story earlier this week that Pet owners prefer McCain to Obama. Now pollster.com has looked at the crosstabs on that poll carefully and demolished the idea. It turns out pet owners tend to be older married white people–and they favor McCain. Minorities and voters under 30 have fewer pets–and they favor Obama. In other words, the demographics of the petted and the petless are different. If somebody ran a poll on who false teeth wearers prefer it would probably be McCain, not due to his excellent plans for dental health insurance, but due to those people belonging to a distinct demographic group (old people). When analyzing polling data you have to be very careful not to confuse correlation with causation, a subject statisticians have been wrestling with for 50 years.

  • just bill said:
    yeah, steve @28. and they’ve been using oil as a weapon against us ever since. thanks tricky dick

    And if one of Saint Ronald first priorities hadn’t been to eliminate Carter’s programs supporting solar power and other renewable energy sources, we might not be in such a desperate situation right now.

    Thanks, Republicans.

  • Bush called it ‘landmark legislation that is vital to the security of our people.’”

    And McCain, whose Senate salary is paid by US taxpayers, couldn’t be bothered to pull a lever to protect America!

    I hope Barack beats him to death with that fact in the debates. Because you and I both know, if the shoe was on the other foot, Obama would be getting his ass kicked by the media right now.

    His vote against FISA would be the defining issue. And just suppose there was a terrorist attack against an American citizen sometime between now and Nov. Holy McCain shit Batman! St. John is in power faster than you can say: “Russ Feingold is an American hero protecting the constitution.”

    I am so glad Barack actually understands how to win the Presidency.
    About fugging time we got a player that understands the game is rigged…

  • I couldn’t read all the comments for this thread, but anyway for those who never got to read “Fiasco,” IIRC this guy Odierno is the poster child for our military failure in occupying Iraq in terms of hearts and minds. His soldiers were the ones doing things like surrounding whole villages with barbed wire, taking the relatives of people wanted for questioning and shipping hordes of detainees to Abu Ghraib without even finding out who they were first.

    What a nightmare that a disgrace to the US military like that is not only still there, but being promoted to the highest ranks. :-O

  • Okay, I think I have had it with the number of confusions about the FISA bill, and the group of you who have already decided that Obama is ‘Sam Brownback with a great tan.’ I have a hunch i am going to be doing a lot of writing between now and the end of the weekend — various minor health problems permitting.

    Before I get started on the bill, on what the 4th Amendment actually means (some of you have been treating it with the same ‘deceptive clarity’ that i;ve come to expect from the Scalia end of things) and on a series of ‘history lesson’ posts on how Progressive change has actually occurred in this country, I want to ask one minor, inconvenient question.

    Whatever you think of the FISA bill that was just passed, there was a much worse ‘assault on the 4th Amendment’ in the ‘Protect America Act of 2007’ that was passed on August 5, 2007 and allowed to ‘sunset’ last february. In fact, I think that some of you are confusing the provisions of the two acts — and remember the controversy over extending it, in which Obama was on the right side.

    This is the real horror, the bill that did allow warrantless wiretapping, retroactive permission from the FISA Court, etc. It passed — in the Senate — by a vote of 60-28 with 12 not voting (probably they were ‘paired for and against’ in some cases). Every single Democratic Candidate for President voted against this bill, and rightly so. Even John McCain was not recorded as voting. Some of the ‘pet hates’ here in the Senate, Rockefeller, Byrd, Reid also voted against it. (Sadly, and damnably, Feinstein voted for it.) In fact, only one prominent Democrat other than Feinstein was among those voting for the bill — and in fact, he also was to vote against all the amendments on Telecom immunity before the current FISA bill was passed, but it wouldn’t be fair to criticize his supporters here for not condemning him for those votes — yet.

    However, the initial vote should have been enough for the rigid ideologues here to damn him as totally as they are condemning Obama. In fact, I hadn’t known about the vote when I ruled him out as a VP Candidate — and now that I do would make this my prime reason. But you people who are so fierce at manning the walls surrounding the Fourth Amendment should have, and at least one of you should have started the same chorus against him that you are now aiming at Obama. Not “Brownback with a great tan” but “Cheney with better aim.”

    But somehow, I didn’t hear any of this, even though the same line is present in the votes against striking Telecom Immunity as was in the votes that were in favor of the “Protect America Act.” The line that reads:

    James Webb (D) Va

  • I suppose that’s a reasonable interpretation, but it seems like a very clumsy form of damage control to me. Feingold should be trying to get the subject away from the FISA revision Obama just voted for, not emphasizing it.

    The damage control is aimed at folks who trend liberal, who respect Feingold, but who find Obama’s support for and justification of his support for this idiocy to be.. well, idiotic. Feingold can’t “change the subject” when the subject is, in fact, the damage.

    Is it clumsy? Yeah, it is. Because Feingold is trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s feces. Obama didn’t even give him a sow’s ear to work with here.

    And of course there’s the fact that Feingold was an early supporter of Obama over Clinton and over Edwards (he had some nasty things to say about Edwards in fact, IIRC). So it may also be that HE’S going through some of the same emotions that other supporters of the Rule of Law are going through with Obama – and attempting to rationalize his support because he knows that McCain would be crazy-bad while Obama will probably (hopefully) just be Bill Clinton bad (but hopefully without the sex scandals).

  • I was lucky enough, the night before the vote, to hear it explained by Rep. Adam Smith (D) of Washington — who, as i said to my wife, “I didn’t know from Adam” when i saw him on HARDBALL. I have since learned he’s a six-term Congressman who beat a Religious Conservative named Randy Tate, that he was a leader in the fight against the PAA (see my last post), and that he was one of the earliest Obama supporters in Congress, supporting him in April 2007. He was fascinating on the question of “Telecom Immunity” and — assuming he isn’t a liar on the Buchanan level — apparently most of us who have been fighting it have got it wrong. (In fact, his explanation was the strongest argument I’ve seen against granting the immunity.)

    Apparently (as Smith said ‘we may not like this, but it is the law that currently exists”) the telecoms already have immunity, that a previous law was passed granting them and others immunity if they can be shown to have acted at the direction of the President or the Attorney General. The ‘trouble’ is that to have this immunity, the Attorney General or his representative has to get up in court and testify to exactly what assurances he gave the telecoms, and exactly what he asked them to do. And Bush will not let his Attorney General testify in this matter.

    So this isn’t about ‘punishing the telecoms’ or ‘forcing them out of business’ or even making sure our phone and Internet rates go up at the level that gas has been rising. The telecoms were never in danger of losing these suits — and according to Mark Kleiman

    Note that the Democrats had proposed last year to substitute the Federal government for the telcos as the defendant in any civil suit. So the question at issue is not whether they have to pay; in either case, they won’t. The question is whether the lawsuits, and the discovery process, can go forward. BushCo is terrified of what that discovery process would produce.

    http://www.samefacts.com/archives/campaign_2008_/2008/07/telco_immuity_exhale.php

    The one thing that ‘granting immunity’ did in this way was to keep the defendants from being able to force a representative of the Bush administration to testify in the discovery process — subject to cross-examination — exactly what was said to and asked of the telcoms. That is what Obama and those opposed to Telcom immunity were fighting about. But, as Mark also notes in the same piece:

    But note that if Obama becomes President, he has no reason either to block internal investigation within the Executive Branch or to use the claim of “executive privilege” to shut down Congressional investigation. So the goal of revealing the extent of the Bush/telco lawlessness is not defeated by the civil-immunity provision.

    And despite the responses here, the fact is that the actual debate in Congress was never about ‘punishing’ telcos but about the investigation of the Bush Administration. Take a look back and see how the arguments were phrased.

  • I can’t speak for all the people here Prup but I certainly recall that a great deal of the blogosphere was pretty upset about the PAA including the people who are at the head of this particular battle – Greenwald, Firedoglake, etc. I am not quite sure of the point you are trying to get to here. Yes, the PAA was worse. Yes, it was ridiculous as always that Democrats including Webb supported it. Where are you going with that?

  • Thank you Jim. Your sound explanation validates my gut feeling: Obama definitely has a bead on the bigger picture.

    Hope you’re feeling better soon!

  • And despite the responses here, the fact is that the actual debate in Congress was never about ‘punishing’ telcos but about the investigation of the Bush Administration. Take a look back and see how the arguments were phrased.

    I am not sure which responses you mean but I and most of the people I have discussed this with have always understood the issue this way. Most of the bloggers who are out front on this have also made this point explicitly and repeatedly.

    Mostly I find the notion that a future congress is going to revisit this issue, to say the least, fanciful. They have gone out of their way to bury and minimize the wrongdoing here. They have deliberately protected the parties involved when they never really had to. I doubt very seriously that they are going to be spending their time years after the fact making a point of investigating the Bush Administration on an issue that they have already decided that the American people apparently don’t care about. The administration is in the clear on this and I think everyone can rest assured on that.

  • Prup (aka Jim Benton) said:
    I was lucky enough, the night before the vote, to hear it explained by Rep. Adam Smith (D) of Washington — who, as i said to my wife, “I didn’t know from Adam” when i saw him on HARDBALL… He was fascinating on the question of “Telecom Immunity” and — assuming he isn’t a liar on the Buchanan level — apparently most of us who have been fighting it have got it wrong.

    Yeah, I saw him interviewed too. He did a bit of misdirection. Yes, this is mostly about investigating the Bush Admin. The Bush people definitely don’t want to admit under oath that they started spying in Americans long before 9-11, and they don’t want anyone to look into the details of what they requested from the telecomm companies.

    But the idea of slamming the courthouse door in the face of ordinary citizens is troubling. It’s already tough enough to sue a corporation. And the right-wing Republican Supreme Court, with their Exxon ruling this term, has made it even harder. One good thing about the SCOTUS eliminating bans of guns — it looks like the only redress that people will have left is to go and shoot up a corporation’s headquarters.

  • yeah – right, we will “correct” obama’s mistake, supporting FISA, by making him the next chimpfurher…

    yeah, sure – right, uh-huh – that’s a big 10-4 dude.

    Just what we need in the WH – another lying monkey that marches to the same drummer as the smirking chimp.

    Sure russ, like, whatever. The people that destroy our constitution are gonna fix it.

    Vote for anybody but obama.

  • Addendum to #41

    Not to brag, but I predicted earlier this spring when the Democrats made noises about defying Bush on FISA that they would cave. I didn’t expect them to do it so publicly though. I assumed they would insert telecomm immunity into a reconciliation bill in the middle of the night.

    So now I hear rumors about President Obama’s Justice Dept. going after members of the Bush Admin. It ain’t gonna happen. He will tell us that “the country needs to let the past go and look to the future,” or some similar bullshit.

    Besides, on January 20 all that the Democrats will find in the executive branch offices are computers missing their harddrives and huge piles of ashes and shredded paper. If Democrats were serious about investigating (and prosecuting) the Bushies, then members of Congress would be in court obtaining injunctions against destroying any records.

  • MsMuddled, the only “bead” that obama has his eyes on hangs below the waist of larry sinclair and a line of blow that is 8 inches long.

    See for yourself: larrysinclair0926.wordpress.com

  • To SteveT@26:
    Then we have nothing to fear from FISA, right? You said you trust the government to keep your secrets (the same government that outed one of their own undercover operatives when it suited their purposes politically), so what’s wrong with FISA?

    To Steve @28:
    I realize that Nixon started the problem. I assume then, that Carter’s first action as President was to lift the embargo to ease the crisis? Carter’s solution was for the government to tell people to use less and carpool. The entire purpose of the founding of this nation was that no government should tell its people how to live. On FISA, healthcare, oil, you name it, government is always the problem, never the solution. Governments exist to protect the private property and rights of the people, nothing further. Read John Locke, Second Treatise on Government, which was the primary inspiration for our Declaration of Independence.

  • However, the initial vote should have been enough for the rigid ideologues here to damn him as totally as they are condemning Obama. — Prup, @35, writing about the so-called “Patriot Act” and Jim Webb

    I actually worked to help get Webb elected here in VA, so his treachery on that subject was doubly wounding. I’d written him — via s-mail, to add weight to the importance of the issue — and begged him to vote against it. And I wrote him afterwards (also involving an envelope and a stamp) to tell him why I wasn’t going to support him financially in the future.

    My objections to his becoming Obama’s VP were, mostly, based on a different calculus — as wobbly a Dem as he might be, he’s still better than anything VA is likely to throw up (in both senses of the phrase) in a *Repub* Senator and we need all the Dem Senators we can get — but the Patriot Act was, definitely a niggle also. Because of that consideration, I will vote for him again in 2012 (unless a true-blue Dem challenges — and beats — him in the primaries), while continuing to withhold financial support.

    But… Bitch about him, loudly, here? At the time of his misguided (I still believe he’s honest, and the vote wasn’t bought) vote? Why should I? He’s only an effing *junior* Senator from VA, after all. Unlike Obama, who, while also a junior Senator only, is also now the leader of the entire Dem party. He has to shoulder more responsibility for his actions/inactions than Webb does, because his actions/inactions carry greater — and more visible — repercussions.

    BTW, I’m really surprised to hear that, now that you know about Webb’s voting record on the shameful act, you think he’d be less suitable as a VP than before. Surely, birds of a feather should, happily, flock together? Webb’s sin may be the greater, but its import is less, due to Webb’s lesser position/status. Obama’s sin may be smaller but its resonance is larger.

  • Before I get to the next part of this, let me respond to what has already been written, including thanks to Miss Muddled — who isn’t, and a response to the well-phrased response of Brent.

    My point in regards to webb is that many of the same people who have already decided that Obama is hopelessly compromised were the same people — I believe, haven’t checked this — who were supporting Webb for Vice president, despite a true assault on the Fourth amendment. I want to ask those of you who knew about Webb’s vote why you didn’t make the same points against him that you are now making against Obama. Why didn’t I hear how he was hopeless, that he was ‘stil a republican,’ that he was the sort of compromiser on basic values that had to be not merely rejected as VP but who should have a challenge mounted against him in the next primary?

    And now that he has gone even further and voted against the amendments stripping telecom immunity from the bill, I hope no one will again suggest that he would be a good choice for VP, or would have been had he not taken his name out of consideration. How, in fact, can you possibly support him for any Cabinet position with these votes on his record? (Of course I am exaggerating here, deliberately, but merely to show how idiotic are comments by someone such as “Markos” above.)

    I should make one thing clear here. I did and do oppose ‘telecom immunity’ — more strongly now that I understand it better. I would have liked to see the Bush Administration caught between having to testify in court or exposing their ‘corporate friends’ to unnecessary multi-billion dollar lawsuits. And I would have been delighted to watch the telecoms ‘spilling the beans’ all over the place and their response to an Administration that put them in this position. There would have been more ‘whistle-blowing’ than in a year’s course in referee school.

    I am glad Obama opposed this, as did the others, my point is that it wasn’t, for me, a ‘deal-breaker.’ It is just as possible for the Obama Administration to conduct its own investigation, as Mark said, and just as possible for preogressive senators to hold his feet to the fire if he fails to — or do it themselves since they will have a large enough majority.

    If, as both Obama and Rep. Smith have insisted, rather than increasing or granting greater warrantless wire-tapping provisions to the President, this in fact brings more material under the control of the FISA Court, then it is worth accepting the immunity provision. (Yes, I would prefer a less ‘toothless’ FISA, but that takes us out of the 4th Amendment question entirely. The fact that a particular judge may grant warrants to any police officer who can spell his own — the officer’s — name right, and that the appeals court is unwilling to reverse a judge doesn’t mean that this is a violation of the 4th Amendment — but I want to spend a lot more time on that later.)

    Anyway, more on other aspects in a bit. I would hope that someone who is condemning Obama will point to anything other than this one — at least arguably explicable — vote, anything in his past life and career that would imply that he would act in the way you predict. (I don’t mean where he has taken a position you disagree with — as i disagree with him strongly on the death penalty and especially on his willing to expand it.)

    Where has he shown the sort of disrespect for civil liberties, the sort of attack on and ignorance of the Constitution, the simple ‘selling out’ that results in his deserving being called “another lying monkey that marches to the same drummer as the smirking chimp.” Any ‘legislative history on that? Any examples of personal choices that would back this up. Or are you just repeating the ‘politicians are all alike and none of them can be trusted, and the government is out to get you if it isn’t curbed’ meme that was so long the staple of such brilliant liberal commentators as Rush limbaugh.

  • Governments exist to protect the private property and rights of the people, nothing further. — Aaron, @45

    Which “rights of the people” would you consider to be the govt’s duty to protect, in addition to protecting private property? Or do you mean that the govt’s only duty is to protect the private property and the right of (some) people to own such?

    In that case, what about those people who do not own private property (beyond, say, a few sticks of furniture and the clothes on their back)? Could those people be excused from paying *any* taxes, seeing as they wouldn’t be drawing on the govt’s resources for protection?

    Oh, and here’s another one: under your rule, would savings and investments be considered “property” (and, therefore, protected but also taxable) or free speech (not worth either protecting or taxing)?

  • libra: You always deserve careful response and you are certainly not one of the hysterical commentators. But I will ask you to read my comments again. My point is not that Webb and Obama were ‘birds of a feather.’ My specific point as far as Webb went was that he voted for a true assault on the 4th Amendment in the PAA, which Obama, Clinton, and all the other candidates opposed, as did most of the non-Centrist Democrats. That he voted against stripping telecom immunity from the recent bill — on all three amendments including Specter’s — when Obama voted to strip it. In other words, if Obama was deserving of some of the contemptuous comments that he received, then why hasn’t Webb been receiving the same sort of comments from his first vote on the PAA.

    And we’ve seen Rockefeller and Reid and others who opposed PAA been blasted as well. But Webb was considered as a perfectly good running mate by many of the people here despite that blotch on his record — of course this was before the current sport of throwing Obama under the bus got started. My point is not that i would oppose Webb for reelection, or a Cabinet post — though I’d have to think hard about it — my point was the difference in response to the two men.

    And one point, you could spend a little time looking at the history of the Senate, and of Senatorial Independence. Becoming the nominee has never given a Senator any more prestige in the Senate. It wasn’t true for Kerry, for Gore as VP, even for Dole or Goldwater. It wasn’t even true for Kennedy and Johnson once they’d been elected.Senators rarely change their votes, or their opinions to ‘make things easy’ for the Presidential Nominee even if he was, or had been, one of their own. So no, I doubt if Obama had opposed final passage that he would have brought the Nelsons, or Salazar, or Webb, or Landrieu, or Carper, or Evan Bayh along with him. (In fact, taking a strong stand on this when he knew he would lose would have given the Republicans a great weapon. “He wants to be the Commander-in-Chief and he’s too liberal to get his own party to go along with him.” (A lie? Sure, but they’re Republicans, they lie.)

  • hey prup – why don’t you get your old arthritic hands off the keyboard for a moment, try to engage your senile brain, and look at the video of
    Obama’s Shameful Housing Record

    The record shows that he hasn’t actually delivered on ANY or his rhetoric – but don’t take my word for it (and don’t make ignorant proclaimations yourself) – see what people in Chicago have to say about his glib speeches and his lack of real action.

    In fact – he just delivers to his corporate masters – but watch what he did with housing before you decide you know EVERYTHING.

  • Practical Implications:

    I realize some of you will be “shocked, shocked” to discover that george Bush believes that as President he has the right to decide which parts of the Constitution apply to him and which he can ignore. And in his ‘signing statements’ he has asserted the right to dcide which laws he will ‘faithfully execute’ and which ones he will say “F*ck you” to Congress over. This is why many of use would rather see his face on a Wanted Poster than on Mount Rushmore.

    (Remember, when i have opposed impeachment it had nothing to do with whether he has committed impeachable acts — obviously he has, and more than all other Presidents combined — but whether conviction was a possibility — it wasn’t — and whether the Republicans would be able to ‘spin’ this so totally as to bring their party together — the only thing that could’ve — and so confuse the public with claims of “Payback for Clinton” that the Democrats would not only have failed but looked bad doing it.)

    And here’s another surprise for you. George Bush didn’t suddenly read this bill and go “Golly Gee, here’s another way of violating the Fourth Amerndment, one which i never would have thought of on my own.”

    In other words, whichever of the four possibilities had occurred
    i)The bill is defeated
    ii)The Bill is passed without telecom immunity and vetoed
    iii)The Bill is passed without telecom immunity and signed (with a ‘signing statement’)
    or
    iv) The Bill is passed as it was

    it wouldn’t have affected the actions of the Bush Administration in the slightest — except for telecom immunity which would have given them a difficult choice. But the wiretappings and data minings and other actions — including whatever he’s been up to that hasn’t come out — would have continued whichever way the bill had gone.

    The only serious question is whether, if there are new illegal powers granted to the President — which is arguable — can Obama be trusted both not to use them, and to so change the law that no future President will have the opportunity.

    And you want to know something? It is precisely because, as i studied his legislative accomplishments, his style of campaigning, his refusal to sell out to politically sensitive audiences (challenging black homophobia before black ministers, challenging our Cuban policy in front of the strongest Traditionalist Cuban Emigree group, etc.) that has convinced me that he can be trusted. (In faxct, I have much more certainty than he can than i would have had had Hillary been the nominee — but that may sound more negative than is meant.)

    And, up until a few weeks ago, you seemed to feel the same way, and trashed — justly — those Clinton supporters who tried to argue the opposite. Now it seems like more than half of you have decided that you were wrong to trust him — maybe you want to join the PUMAs? — and that, now that he is the almost certain winner, there has to be something wrong with him. (As long as he was — in some of your eyes — going down to certain defeat through the evil manipulations of the MSM and his utter weakness in the face of personal attacks that would be hurled at him, he was our ‘noble if doomed champion.’ Now that it seems like he’s actually going to be President of the united States, and win by the largest majority in history, you seem to be working as hard to find his ‘feet of clay’ as do the Media anytime they feel they’ve overpraised a celebrity.)

    Anyway, the practical result of the vote will be nil for the next six months, and will only be dangerous if Obama tries a Bush-like power grab and the many Democrats he elects with him let him — and I assure you the fuzzy-looking bearded guy in the front of the protest line will be me if this happens. (And I’ll still be thinking we’re better off with him than with McCain, because we can reach him.)

  • Aaron said:

    To Steve @28:
    I realize that Nixon started the problem. I assume then, that Carter’s first action as President was to lift the embargo to ease the crisis?

    Umm… Aaron, the oil embargo was imposed on us by OPEC in 1973. Then in 1974 the oil producing countries began to take control of the companies controlling oil production in their countries or to nationalize them outright. Within a few months, the West had to adjust to the idea that the flow of imported oil was not absolutely guaranteed.

    Carter’s solution was for the government to tell people to use less and carpool. The entire purpose of the founding of this nation was that no government should tell its people how to live. On FISA, healthcare, oil, you name it, government is always the problem, never the solution. Governments exist to protect the private property and rights of the people, nothing further.

    Carter’s solution was a comprehensive, three-tiered plan. In the short term Americans were encouraged, and to a certain extent coerced by government restrictions like the 55 mph speed limit, to use less energy to reduce the immediate energy shortage. In the intermediate term, Carter and Congress raised milage standards for cars and added regulations to make buildings and appliances more energy efficient. In the long term, Carter established tax incentives to encourage increased use of solar and other sources of alternative power with the goal of reducing or even eliminating the need for imported oil.

    Government exists to do more than keep Aaron’s stuff secure from commies and dark-skinned people, both foreign and domestic. Government encourages commerce by establishing regulations that smooth economic fluctuations and create confidence and continuity. During crises the government can impose regulations on the consumption of scarce resources, like it did in WW I and WW II, to ensure the “general welfare”.

    Remember the preamble to the Constitution, which describes what the framers intended. It doesn’t stop after “establish justice and ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense”. It continues, “promote the general welfare and ensure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity….”

    Now you may argue that the “blessings of liberty” include the right of corporations to do anything they want and for individuals to consume as much as they can afford. But I strongly disagree.

    Unlike some mythical Ayn Randian paradise, in the real world corporations exist for one purpose — to increase their profits. If a society expects a corporation to do anything else, such as produce products that don’t kill people, in facilities that don’t kill or maim their workers and using methods that don’t poison the surrounding environment, then government has to require them to do so.

    The libertarian solution of “social Darwinism” is unacceptable to a large majority of Americans. Few Americans have the expertise to test the food they buy to ensure that it isn’t contaminated or poisonous. The “free market” solution is to leave the food providers alone, and if the product they sell is dangerous, then they will be driven out of business. But of course, by that time hundreds or thousands of people are dead.

    Few Americans have the time or the resources to negotiate their own health coverage and it’s not reasonable to expect them to get the training to decipher the fine print in their policy. Without government regulation to protect consumers from buying health coverage that doesn’t actually cover anything, an awful lot of people wouldn’t buy heath coverage at all. Without widespread access to medical care, epidemics are inevitable.

    Government becomes the problem when elected officials don’t have to worry about being held accountable for what government does. Either they don’t have to worry about getting re-elected, thanks to the extraordinary power of incumbency, or one branch of government abdicates its responsibility to provide a check on the power of the other branches.

    The problem with the FISA revision is that this Congress has (unconstitutionally, in my opinion) given up the responsibility of the legislative branch to provide oversight on the executive branch and taken away the Fourth Amendment guarantee of no searches without a court-approved warrant.

    To SteveT@26:
    Then we have nothing to fear from FISA, right? You said you trust the government to keep your secrets (the same government that outed one of their own undercover operatives when it suited their purposes politically), so what’s wrong with FISA?

    Again, Congress abdicated its responsibility when members of the Bush Administration outed Valarie Plame. The problem wasn’t that government had too much power. The problem was that unethical Republicans and cowardly Democrats refused to enforce existing Constitutional protections. Congress should have impeached Cheney’s lying ass.

  • Political considerations:

    I’m going to start this by saying something that may seem inconsistent with what i have already said. I wish Obama had voted the other way, and believe he could have done so with relatively little risk. But the reason I say that is because I have been arguing since the 2006 elections that any Democratic Candidate would beat any Republican, that it was clearly a Democratic year. I have been also arguing, once we see the two candidates and watch mcCain’s incredibly incompetent campaign, that Obama will, most likely, win well over 435 electoral votes, that McCain will be lucky to win more than a handful of states — and most of them pretty small.

    However, many people still see this as a close race. Whether Obama sees it as such, whether he wants to make sure he gets the biggest mandate possible (unlike the razor-slim ones that Bush and Clinton — 1st term — had), whether he wants to ‘provide cover’ for colleagues — especially those running for re-election who don’t feel like they can risk voting against the bill, or whether he just has an ingrained dislike of handing Republicans bullets for the only gun they still have functioning, he chose the opposite way.

    And the political arguments could be very strong were the race to ‘tighten up.’ As I said to Libra above, there was a very strong possibility that he could have put himself on the line for the bill, and still failed to swing the Carpers, the Nelsons, the Salazars, the Feinsteins, or the Bayhs. He certainly wouldn’t have gotten Lieberman, and while maybe a couple of Republicans would have broken ranks in a close vote (Specter, Hagel, Lugar), they might not have been enough. And — again, in a close race — the line “See, he’s even too liberal to get his party to follow him” would have been powerful. And the one area where Republicans — ridiculously enough — come close to the Democrats is in their handling of terrorism. yes, they are even losing that edge and right now probably trail the Democrats, but it could still turn around, and a vote against this might have been a blow.

    (I do agree entirely with Pelosi’s bringing this up. Again, i’ve said elsewhere that there are going to be a lot of close races out there, mostly in usually red districts. That one commercial “Your representative tried to pass a bill to insure that your country would be protected against terrorists and the Democratic Liberals wouldn’t even let it come to a vote” might have swung a few districts.)

    I don’t expect to agree with obama on everything, and have already stated one area which i strongly disagree, his support for the death penalty. I also support a single-payer’ health care plan, full gay marriage equality, and worry about controlling his version of ‘faith-based initiatives’ though have no fear that they will be run like Bush’s.

    But so far, I have watched the most magnificent — and the most principled — political campaign I’ve ever seen. I’ve seen slight missteps, but overall, he has benn so consistently right on things that I’ll yeild to his judgment here. (As for my other disagreements, I’ll predict right now that events will move him fully on to my side on all of them.)

  • I’m pretty sure Dems have the votes to beat this: “President Bush will stand by his longstanding threat to veto Medicare legislation passed by the Senate Wednesday, the White House confirmed. The veto will set up override votes in the House and Senate, where the legislation passed with more than the two-thirds majority needed to overcome the president’s rejection.”

    I’m glad you live in cloud-cuckoo land, because if you think those 9 Republcans who voted for it after Ted Kennedy broke the filibuster are going to sticfk around and override The Leader’s veto, then you really are Pollyanna.

  • Hmm, an interesting development. Pelosi is now considering impeachment hearings. That doesn’t mean bringing it to a vote — which would be disastrous. But hearings on impeachment — for the first time (Thanks, Mark K.) that makes sense to me, because it is much harder for Rove, Gonzalez, and the rest to maintain ‘executive privilege’ in that context.

    Not sure it would work, and can see some very tricky pitfalls — including Republicans trying to bring the bill out of committee. But it might be a possible tactic — as long as it remained a Committee hearing.

  • Prup (aka Jim Benton) said:
    And the political arguments could be very strong were the race to ‘tighten up.’ As I said to Libra above, there was a very strong possibility that he could have put himself on the line for the bill, and still failed to swing the Carpers, the Nelsons, the Salazars, the Feinsteins, or the Bayhs…. And — again, in a close race — the line “See, he’s even too liberal to get his party to follow him” would have been powerful.

    Democrats took a completely wrong lesson from the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections. When exit polls said that voters wanted a candidate with “values” the weren’t talk about Bush’s values. A majority of voters disagreed with many of Bush’s positions.

    Voters wanted a candidate who HAD values — ANY values.

    John Kerry was too much of a lawyer to state his positions with bumper-sticker clarity the way Bush did. So Republicans were able paint Kerry as a “flip-flopper.” Al Gore’s inept campaign allowed the corporate-controlled media to create the story that Gore was a chameleon — “morally upright Al”, “alpha-male Al”, “earthtone-wearing Al”. The one persona that Gore was consistent about — “environmental Al” — got locked in a closet by his campaign consultants before the primary season started.

    Meanwhile, even Bush’s supporters admitted that he wasn’t the brightest bulb in the chandelier. But Bush was able to argue that his values were unshakable. Unfortunately, a lot of the values he claimed in his campaigns, like being a “compassionate conservative” and being a bipartisan “uniter” were complete B.S.

    This strategy even worked over and over for one of the most despicable human beings in recent history — Jesse Helms.

    So I want to see a candidate unashamedly proclaim, “This is what I believe. This is what I will do. If you don’t like it, don’t vote for me.”

    I think it would be so different that it would be a winning strategy.

  • And a preliminary note on Constitutional Interpretation.

    Hopefully I’ll get the chance to write a lot about the 4th Amendment tomorrow — either here or as a part of tomorrow’s open thread. But one thing has depressed me about some of the comments I’ve seen here. And that is the “It’s right there in black and white…” style of interpretation that I am much more used to hearing from those on the right, from Scalia to half-educated twits who think they are making great points. (In fact, it is very similar to the ‘Look, it’s right there in the Bible” reponse i get from many evangelical Christians on other matters.)

    The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights in particular, is composed of simple sentences, for the most part, but the one thing that 220 years of living with it has shown is that the ‘simple statements’ aren’t so simple, and need careful interpretation. In fact, there is still no definite, settled agreement as to which of the portions of the Bill of Rights were ‘incorporated’ into the 14th Amendment and are applicable to the States.

    But there’s a simple test to show how tricky the simplest phrase can be in practice. One prominent Justice argued as follows — and I ask you to find holes in it from the ‘it’s there in black and white’ approach:

    The First Amendment states that ‘Congress shall make no law’ involving ‘freedom of speech and the Press.’ It does not say that speech must be truthful to receive this benefit, and, in fact, the Court has held repeatedly that the fact that a statement is unpopular, insulting, or untrue does not give the government a right to censor this. But given this, it is obvious that a law against libel is a violation of free speech and thus Unconstitutional.

    (I was tempted to let you guess who took that position, but no, it isn’t Scalia, or Thomas, or some forgotten Justice of the early 19th century. It was one of the most consistent civil libertarians on the bench, Judge Hugo Black. Fortunately, he could never win a majority to this version of ‘no law means no law.’ However, can you argue against it?)

    And a couple of other quickies on the Fourth amendment. Do you (and why or why not) accept the following things as not being — as they apparently are — violations of the 4th Amendment:
    ‘Stop and Frisk’ laws?

    Mandatory random drug tests with no specific evidence targeting the specific persons taking the test?

    Laws requiring technicians repairing computers to report any child pornography found on them?

    Whatever your position on the laws themselves, how do you square them with the 4th amendment?

    More — hopefully — tomorrow, maybe on tomorrow’s open thread.

  • Steve T:
    It is precisely because I have seen Obama not merely proclaim this but live it, that i am voting for him with such enthusiasm. (I just disagree that, in this case, it demonstrates any lack of values.)

    But more tomorrowwwwwzzzzzzzz*snore*

  • Prup (aka Jim Benton) said:
    The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights in particular, is composed of simple sentences, for the most part, but the one thing that 220 years of living with it has shown is that the ’simple statements’ aren’t so simple, and need careful interpretation.

    You’re right. Most of the news stories about this issue have been factually incorrect. The stories talk about FISA and “warrantless wiretapping”, which is only a small part of the FISA revision. Unfortunately, most “journalists” are idiots who usually don’t really understand what they’re reporting on.

    Wiretapping refers to conversations over telephone land lines, which are very strongly protected by the Constitution.

    Cell phone signals and the signals from cordless phones are less well protected by the Fourth Amendment. I don’t know what the current legal standard for intercepting those signals is.

    Conversations aren’t all that are intercepted. E-mails, internet use, faxes and any other transmission of data are all fair game.

    Also covered is “data mining”, which is recording everything from every source and using a computer to search for key words. A better analogy than “data mining” would be “fishing with a three mile drag net,” where everything gets scooped up and most of what isn’t wanted can’t just be thrown back. The problem is that every transmission is recorded and the Pentagon, the FBI, the CIA and the NSA have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to purge any information they intercept that they shouldn’t have to keep it from being used later.

  • It is with an equally-muddled clarity that Aaron isn’t looking at the condition of the US military immediately following the Viet Nam War. The US resolve to fight was at an incredible low-point; the draft had ended, and the “all-volunteer Army” of today was still in its infancy, while we certainly didn’t have the precision-guided weaponry of today.

    Maybe we could have just carpet-bombed the oilfields, Aaron? Smothered them in napalm? I can’t think of a better way to have put the entire ME under “the loving protection” of the U.S.S.R. than a stupid “I-wanna-be-like-Dubya” move such as that—can you?

    The ME was already a delicate hot-spot, waiting for a spark to ignite it—and we were more than a bit less capable of fighting a protracted land war then, than we are today. We can’t even get completely on top of the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan now—imagine taking how thin we’re spread today in those two places, and speading it over the entire ME, all of North Africa, down through East Africa, the Pacific Rim, back into SE Asia, and then into parts of South and Central America—all at the same time. Carter knew he had a wrecked military on his hands; Congress would have hung him from atop the Capitol dome if he had tried to re-institute the draft.

    All the ’73 Embargo really did was stop the supply of cheap oil by using a tit-for-tat manner of inflationary price increases. Imagine if all of OPEC were to have simply shut off the supply altogether. What then, Aaron?

  • A couple quick points:

    1. savings and investments are property, to be taxed (at a reasonable rate, taxes on investment discourage investment, it’s a basic and proven economic fact)
    2. Everyone would be able to pursue and acquire private property, so I would ask to stop with the race-baiting. The beauty of a free market is that it cannot afford to discriminate.
    3. re: OPEC….we have enough proven domestic oil reserves to replace ALL of the oil we get from OPEC nations, and the real problem with oil in this country is the weakness of the dollar, which has occurred due to policies of the current and many previous administrations.

    Finally, someone earlier made the remark that I trying to protect a crooked Republican (in this case, Nixon). I mostly believe that a vast majority of elected and appointed officials are crooks. I think that we need examine term limits again so that those who run for office are doing so to serve the “greater good”, not simply as a career choice.

  • I think

    expect when he speaks for John McCain

    should read:

    except when he speaks for John McCain

  • Comments are closed.