The United States is not occupying Alabama

The argument for maintaining a decades-long presence for U.S. troops in Iraq invariably leads conservatives to draw a comparison to post-World War II Germany and Japan. It’s a fundamentally flawed argument, but it tends to dominate the discourse.

At least Germany and Japan, though, are foreign countries.

RedState, a prominent conservative blog, has been pushing aggressively of late against the notion that John McCain wants the war in Iraq to continue for another century, and urging readers to badger news outlets that get the story wrong. Bill Scher notes today that RedState’s new round of talking points, sent via email, includes an untraditional argument.

“Clearly McCain was talking about a peace time standing presence … Someone should ask the Democrats if they think we’re still at war with the confederacy, the Germans, and the Japanese given all the standing American armies in the South, Germany, and Japan.” (emphasis added)

Scher asks the only appropriate question: “[H]aving military bases in Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina does not constitute a permanent occupation. Does RedState really believe that 140 years after the Civil War, American troops have a ‘peace time standing presence’ in the American south?”

I’d just add that a recent survey found that nearly 60% of Iraqis still believe that attacks on U.S.-led forces are justified.

I’d bet the number is much lower throughout the Southeastern United States. Call it a hunch.

As long as we’re here, I suppose we might as well point out the flaw in the rest of the argument, relating to Germany and Japan, too. Joe Klein recently noted:

The problem with John McCain’s 100 years in Iraq formulation isn’t that he’s calling for 95 more years of combat — he isn’t — but that he thinks you can have a long-term basing arrangement in Iraq similar to those we have in Germany or Korea. That betrays a fairly acute lack of knowledge about both Iraq and Islam. It may well be possible to station U.S. troops in small, peripheral kingdoms like Dubai or Kuwait, but Iraq is — and has always been — volatile, tenuous, centrally-located and nearly as sensitive to the presence of infidels as Saudi Arabia. It is a terrible candidate for a long-term basing agreement.

Indeed, one prominent senator recently explained just a couple of months ago that McCain’s use of comparisons from recent generations is flawed because Iraq is a fundamentally different theater with ethnic and religious differences. The senator noted that the “nature of the society in Iraq” and the “religious aspects” of the country make withdrawal inevitable.

The senator who said this was, of course, John McCain in November, before he changed his mind about his own worldview on international affairs.

Oh Jeez! I live in Alabama! Hey honey, the Yankees are back, where’s my ammo…

The South shall rise again!

  • “Clearly McCain was talking about a peace time standing presence”

    Wow, did peace break out when I wasn’t looking? Cool!

    I’m still waiting to see the Official Red State Recruiting Drive. Since this is literally World War Four, I know that they will put up a banner soon, announcing all the names of the Red State Fighting Keyboardists who will soon be going off to fight the terrorists there so that they don’t have to fight them here.

    Maybe they’ll kick it off now that it’s officially Islamo-Fascist Awareness Week.

  • Hey RedState, how about we talk about a more relevant comparison for Iraq. Like Israel’s long running occupation of Palestine. How is that working out?

  • These right wing freaks are grabbing at straws now. To even make the analogy of bases in the US South being comparable to a sustained presence in Iraq is pure lunacy.

    However, as it seems that you could compare the ignorance and intolerance of modern day republicans to that of the old south aristocracy, I say we go ahead and finish the job; kick their asses once again, as we did back in the 1860’s.

  • Now that I think about it, shouldn’t we be out of Germany and Japan? WW2 is over and we have no right occupying their territory. I would have a problem if Germany/Japan/Iraq had a base in the states. Shouldn’t we extend the same courtesy that we expect from other countries to other countries?

  • The closest comparison is really the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

    The replacement of Israeli with American, and Palestinian with Iraqi, really makes the comparison a close one.

    Look how well that is working for Israel 40 years after the 1967 War.

  • Someone, I would guess that most Japanese and Germans do not see us as “occupying.” Since we required that Japan’s post-war constitution greatly restricted their military, maintaining a defense force there to keep China from overruning them was the least we could do (and of course it came back to bite us in Gulf War I when we wanted their help and the Consitution we drafted prohibited them from helping us).

    Similarly, while Germany may be ready to let us go now, our troops in Germany were a critical deterrent to the USSR and East Germany deciding to modify the east-west border.

    Iraq is different in a million ways, and we shouldn’t look to long-term base there, but that does not mean bases in Germany and Japan are a bad idea.

    Now South Korea, on the other hand. . . (where significant numbers no longer want us and our presence given Bush’s antagonism of NK may actually make things less stable. . .)

  • Leave poor McBush alone. Didn’t you hear him say that withdrawal will only admit defeat? After all, don’t you believe in the old saying, “In a 100 years, who’s going to give a shit anyway?” (Or was that 1000 years….)

  • I was passing through LA, Lower Alabama that is, a couple of years ago.

    Saw the biggest confederate flag in the world flying next to largest Roy Moore campaign sign in the world. Shoulda took a pix of it.

  • Perhaps it’s a typo and Red State originally meant South Korea…? I hope so, the alternative represents an absurdity too gross to comprehend.

  • Mark,
    I think the Japanese have a problem with our presence on their island. There was a report a couple of months ago about a Japanese teenager raped by a US soldier which caused protests on the streets because it wasn’t the first time something like that had happened. http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=394896
    I just don’t think it’s appropriate for us to have military bases in other countries. It violates sovereignty. The Cold War is also over, Germany doesn’t have the USSR to fear and I highly doubt Japan has to fear China running over them. And another thing, what right do we have to tell other countries how large they can build their armies? I think a lot of countries are going to rethink their positions as US eminence diminishes.

  • Of course the US is occupying Alabama. Appomattax wasn’t a defeat, it was a strategic defeat. What do you think all of the Civil War re-enactments down here are really about? Practice. Soon we will cast of the yoke of Yankee oppression and become the third world nation we so greatly aspire to!

  • And hey, just realized today, April 9 is the day Lee signed the papers signifying our strategic retreat;>

  • I live in Florida and I do have to say sometimes it FEELS like we’re being occupied by Yankees. But they’re old and would be easy to take.

  • Please, folks. Before we start worrying about resolving the continuing occupation of the former CSA, let’s take care of older business first. We STILL haven’t managed to get the Franks out of Gaul, and they’ve been there for 1600 years. When’s Condi going to do something about it?

  • Are you sure that Alabama isn’t being occupied?

    After a dozen legislators received subpoenas one day last month in a criminal investigation, an atmosphere of paranoia and anxiety has descended on the gleaming white building that houses the State Legislature, many of its occupants say.

    The fear is all the more acute in that the current investigation centers on Democrats in their last redoubt of power here, the State Legislature, and takes place against a backdrop of intense partisan ill-feeling. Many here maintain that a former governor, Don Siegelman, who was convicted by federal prosecutors and jailed last year, was singled out because he is a Democrat.

    “There’s a direct link between the Siegelman debacle and what’s going on here,” said one legislator, nervously looking around. Like many, he refused to be quoted by name.
    Lawyers for the subpoenaed legislators say there are similarities to the prosecution of Mr. Siegelman — in particular, a government penchant for high-profile grand jury summonses rather than low-key interviews in a prosecutor’s office.

    “Rather than asking them to be interviewed, they are pulling them in front of the grand jury, which forces them to come in and be bullied, or take the Fifth,” said Doug Jones, a lawyer for some of the lawmakers.

    The prosecutors’ angle was made explicit in the recent arrest of State Representative Sue Schmitz, from a district in northern Alabama. The government says Ms. Schmitz collected thousands of dollars for a make-work, no-show job in the two-year college system.

    Ms. Schmitz’s lawyer, Herman Watson, says she is a 63-year-old grandmother and a dedicated teacher. Mr. Watson said that Ms. Schmitz was awakened in her home before dawn by six federal agents, two of whom were armed. She was handcuffed, Mr. Watson said, and taken off in tears to jail.

    “She’s never been arrested in her life,” he said.

    If you’re not familiar with this story…some months ato, US Marshall’s stormed the Legislature, warrants in hand, to serve the lawmakers while they were in session. This had never happened in neither Alabama nor US history. (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think it has!)

    One has to wonder just who is occupying what.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/us/06alabama.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=alabama&st=nyt&oref=slogin

  • Okay by me if we pull our troops out of Germany, Japan, and South Korea.

    By the way, I agree with one of the comments above that South was probably a typo that should have read South Korea.

  • You’re all wrong.
    We should do as they ask and close every military base we have in Alabama.

    That’ll go over well with their Congressional delegation, no doubt.

    I’ve no idea what the BRAC decisions were based on when so many southern states want us out anyway.

  • It’s a lame excuse made by morons who don’t even know what they’re talking about.

    I was stationed in Germany in the 80’s. When I was off duty, I had no problems walking down the streets in Germany, shop at a variety of businesses and enjoy their entertainment venues. At no point did I ever wonder whether a suicide bomber would come out to level the place, or that an angry German citizen was going to kidnap me for a ransom.

    I wonder how many GI’s stationed in Iraq, stroll down the streets casually dressed without armor or weapons. I bet they can’t wait to spend time at the local market and mingle with the locals without protection.

    A bunch of Republican / Conservative idiots – don’t pay attention to them.

  • i live in florida and i do have to say sometimes it feels like we’re being occupied by yankees. but they’re old and would be easy to take.

    now that’s really a situation that where the more relevant comparison would be israel occupying palestine.

  • RedState is always such a perfect example of the catastrophe of home schooling.

    The reason there are so many military bases in the south is because the Southern Senators were Senators-for-Life back between FDR and JFK, and they tended to end up on the Armed Services Committee and the Judiciary Committee. They were needed votes for expansion of the military from 1939 on, and they were dedicated pork-barrell politicians. It was much easier to put the training of American paratroopers on a base (Ft. Benning) in the State represented by the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee than it would have been to put them in New Mexico or someplace intelligent. Then with the Hair Farce, there was also the fact that flying weather in Texas is better than it is in Michigan.

    I do have to say it’s too bad we didn’t militarily occupy the South until we either straightened them out or ethnically cleansed the swamp.

    BTW – today (April 9) is the 143rd anniversary of the surrender by the great traitor Robert E. Lee to the great patriot, Ulysses S. Grant.

  • It was in living memory that signs in Augusta Georgia said:
    “No Dogs or Soldiers on the Grass”

    The ‘Occupation’ of the South didn’t end until Sam Nunn decided he LIKED having military bases down there.

  • If the “the South” refers to South Korea, it’s a strange sentence construction, since the previous phrase is otherwise parallel with references to Germany and Japan. It matches “the confederacy”. There is a reference to “South Korea” several paragraphs earlier. Throwing in “the confederacy” in the first phrase, but referring to South Korea as “the South” makes no sense.

    Of course, expecting wingers to make sense doesn’t make sense, either.

  • I’m a born, raised and current northerner who believes that the civil war should never have been fought; or failing that, that the wrong side won. I believe the Confederacy should have been allowed to be it’s own country; The north-south divide remains today, and our many cultural and political differences continue to cause conflict. We shouldn’t be forced to impose our will upon each other. If there was a national referendum on this tomorrow, my vote would be for division.

    Having said that, I can see how a radical Confederate purist of the south could indeed view our army bases as an occupation. But to anyone else, the idea that we’re “occupying” part of our own land is just absurd. I guess military policy is just another something for McCain that “isn’t his thing”.

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