People are persuaded all the time

Matt Miller wrote a fascinating op-ed column in the New York Times over the weekend that had plenty of blogs buzzing. The premise was simple enough: our political discourse has become so strident and polarized, persuading others with arguments and ideas is no longer possible.

Is it possible in America today to convince anyone of anything he doesn’t already believe? If so, are there enough places where this mingling of minds occurs to sustain a democracy?

The signs are not good. Ninety percent of political conversation amounts to dueling “talking points.” Best-selling books reinforce what folks thought when they bought them. Talk radio and opinion journals preach to the converted. Let’s face it: the purpose of most political speech is not to persuade but to win, be it power, ratings, celebrity or even cash.

By contrast, marshaling a case to persuade those who start from a different position is a lost art. Honoring what’s right in the other side’s argument seems a superfluous thing that can only cause trouble, like an appendix. Politicos huddle with like-minded souls in opinion cocoons that seem impervious to facts.

I think Miller has identified a common problem in our national dialog, but I also believe he’s slightly off-base about the ability to persuade.

Miller’s right to the extent that “opinion cocoons” offer those who consume the news a chance to filter out perspectives different from their own. Someone could, for example, read the Washington Times in the morning, listen to Limbaugh in the afternoon, spend some time on the Free Republic after work, and then enjoy some Fox News before bed. On weekends, he or she could trudge through the latest book from Regnery Publishing. Will this person be exposed to progressive ideas and weigh their merit? It’s unlikely.

To this extent, Miller has identified a genuine problem with a bi-polar discourse. We’re not all open-minded, which means we’re not all open to persuasion, which means competing ideas will sometimes rise and fall regardless of merit.

But in identifying one problem, I think Miller’s missed another one.

Miller’s column argued that the act of persuasion may be dead. But one need look no further than public opinion polls to see this isn’t true. People are constantly being persuaded — on whether or not Bush is doing a good job, on whether the war in Iraq is going well, and on virtually every other policy issue under the sun. The fact that poll numbers change frequently necessarily means that large numbers of people are being persuaded in one direction or the other all the time.

But I suspect Miller’s not referring to these people; he means the swaths of people who have largely already decided where they are on the political spectrum and what side they fall on when it comes to the ideological fights of the day. But this leaves out a very large chunk of the populace. They’re usually called “undecideds.”

This is going back a ways, but Christopher Hayes had a stunningly good piece in The New Republic shortly after last year’s election, in which he describes his experiences in dealing with undecided (or persuadable) voters while working on the League of Conservation Voters’ Environmental Victory Project.

Perhaps the greatest myth about undecided voters is that they are undecided because of the “issues.” That is, while they might favor Kerry on the economy, they favor Bush on terrorism; or while they are anti-gay marriage, they also support social welfare programs. Occasionally I did encounter undecided voters who were genuinely cross-pressured — a couple who was fiercely pro-life, antiwar, and pro-environment for example — but such cases were exceedingly rare. More often than not, when I asked undecided voters what issues they would pay attention to as they made up their minds I was met with a blank stare, as if I’d just asked them to name their favorite prime number.

The majority of undecided voters I spoke to couldn’t name a single issue that was important to them. This was shocking to me. Think about it: The “issue” is the basic unit of political analysis for campaigns, candidates, journalists, and other members of the chattering classes. It’s what makes up the subheadings on a candidate’s website, it’s what sober, serious people wish election outcomes hinged on, it’s what every candidate pledges to run his campaign on, and it’s what we always complain we don’t see enough coverage of.

But the very concept of the issue seemed to be almost completely alien to most of the undecided voters I spoke to. (This was also true of a number of committed voters in both camps–though I’ll risk being partisan here and say that Kerry voters, in my experience, were more likely to name specific issues they cared about than Bush supporters.) At first I thought this was a problem of simple semantics — maybe, I thought, “issue” is a term of art that sounds wonky and intimidating, causing voters to react as if they’re being quizzed on a topic they haven’t studied. So I tried other ways of asking the same question: “Anything of particular concern to you? Are you anxious or worried about anything? Are you excited about what’s been happening in the country in the last four years?”

These questions, too, more often than not yielded bewilderment. As far as I could tell, the problem wasn’t the word “issue”; it was a fundamental lack of understanding of what constituted the broad category of the “political.” The undecideds I spoke to didn’t seem to have any intuitive grasp of what kinds of grievances qualify as political grievances. Often, once I would engage undecided voters, they would list concerns, such as the rising cost of health care; but when I would tell them that Kerry had a plan to lower health-care premiums, they would respond in disbelief — not in disbelief that he had a plan, but that the cost of health care was a political issue. It was as if you were telling them that Kerry was promising to extend summer into December.

This is the problem with the political discourse. Yes, it’s a shame that politically engaged citizens, on both sides, are not as open to persuasion as they should be. But the real problem is that everyone else, the politically-unengaged, are ridiculously uninformed — and they’re the ones who get persuaded all the time.

Ah, the uninformed AKA the great unwashed. Yes, just because the people who read this blog care about political issues, most people in America do not. The only time they vote is if somehow they perceive “government” as infringing on their “rights”. That’s why the evangelicals appeared in numbers…they were afraid (convinced by Rove & Co) Kerry/Dems were going to take away their “right” to stop abortions/read the bible/put the 10 commandments on display, etc. etc.

BTW, my favorite prime number is 17. FWIW

  • Outstanding excellent Comment, Carpetbagger. But I think blogs like this are the new Greek halls of logic. Although concedely a conservative, I thoroughly enjoy this site because the majority of the commentators display obvious superior education, and are willing to “duel” in a gentlemanly fashion. I have always felt that unless one were willing to take their beliefs and opinions and put them on the table for scrutiny, and have the intellectual integrity to say “if you persuade me otherwise, I’m willing to change my opinion”then you really forward no good in the national political discourse. That’s why conservatives like me usually wish we could get a muzzle over Ann Coulter’s mouth- she does no one any real good.

  • It’s like a metastasized form of cynicism. People no longer believe that politicians can have any effect on their daily lives.

    Does advertising have something to do with this? How many times does someone watch a lottery commercial or answer the call to enter a sweepstakes without winning before they adopt the unconscious belief that The Game is rigged?

  • Unfortunately, today “persuadable” is often just another word for “manipulable.”

    Or, as a very wise person once said: “The trouble with having an open mind is that people come along and put things in it.”

    (This quote is attributed to Terry Pratchett, but I saw it quoted in a book of sci-fi stories by John Brunner in the ’60s. If anyone can direct me to the original source of this quote, I’d appreciate it.)

  • C. Majure,

    You are a rare breed in my experience and I welcome the chance to engage people that who are willing to discuss issues based on some type of sound thinking not on what a radio talking head told them to believe. Thank you for your candor about Ann Coulter and at some point in the future may we be blessed with her contracting a permanent cases of laryngitis and writer’s cramp.

  • Your point is well taken, Mr. Carpetbagger, but I think there is yet another and possibly more substantial reason for the lack of rational and persuasive political discourse: “facts” in the objective sense are no longer relevant, and maybe even to be shunned as counterproductive to “news as entertainment” as practiced today by our domestic media.

    “Debate” in the media has dissolved into “he said/she said” shoutfests, with a listing of talking points and sound bites, with no effort made to independently analyze and verify the facts and to then publicly hold the prevaricators, liars, dissemblers (the word, Pres. Dumbstick, is NOT “dis-Assemble”) and uninformed blatherers. There is a direct correlation between the demise of an independent, knowledgable, and effective media, on the one hand, and a dumbed-down, cynical and uninformed electorate on the other.

    And, I’ve got to give a shout-out to C. Majure for his (her?) comments on knowledge-based discourse that takes place on this site, and also for his “muzzle Ann Coulter” frame — it made me smile that others can think for themselves without her banshee-like screeds. Thanks! 🙂 P.S. Is your last name real or just a take-off on the legal concept of “force majeure” as an “Act of God” or a “superior or irresistible force”?

  • Analytical Liberal- May last name really is Majure. Not sure if I have any relation to the sea captain of force majeure fame, but when I was in the Navy my captain called me “Force.” Hmm, maybe that might be a cool handle to use around here.

  • I’m reminded of something from a book which was very influential when I was in college, Eric Hoffer’s The True Believer. He noted that “true believers” of the left and right had no interest in hearing each other (just as now). But the real enemies, he argued, were not these extremists (who, as individuals, were even known to switch sides). The true opponents were the extremists of both stripes, versus rational mostly self-interested individuals who cared about factual observation and logical deduction, i.e., those who wouldn’t play today’s shouting match game.

    Another book which came out about that same time, Eugene Burdick’s The Ninth Wave, made a dramatic case for paying attention to those “in the middle” who hadn’t made up their minds … not necessarily because they were uniformed or cynical but because they had other things to do with their lives. Yet they were the ones who actually made the decisions, once persuaded.

    Which brings me to Howard Dean. Biden and Edwards and various pundits dumped shit on him over the weekend for telling the truth about Republicans. Both wondered how the Democrats will make inroads in the “red states” with attacks like that. I’d like to ask how we’re going to make inroads in those states if we never visit them at all (which seems to be our “true believers” approach, and the party’s approach in the last election).

    You persuade people by penetrating their boob-tube opiated brain boxes, and Dean is doing that. You persuade people the way successful advertising does all the time, by giving them an image you can respond to, rally around … I haven’t noticed Biden bringing out the rank and file. Dean is a very effective counter to Limbaugh (he’s quotable, he’s charming). So is all of Air America. I think the Democratic Party ought to be questioning the pro-war votes of its “liberal” Senators and congressmen, not dumping on the only one who seems willing to speak to all those “non-believers” out there.

    And it’s not all talk and sound bites either. For starters, Dean is putting four paid, four-year DNC organizers in each of the 50 states. Long term organization counts for at least as much as righteous enthusiasm, as any evangelical organizer can assure you.

    Great post, Carpetbagger, C. (do we have to keep calling you that?) and everybody else.

  • It’s important, in an argument like this, to notate that the Founding Fathers specifically AVOIDED a direct democracy- to prevent the uneducated masses from taking the country down improper paths. That is the foundation of the whole system of ‘checks and balances’. The House is the ‘gimme’ to the masses, a group of elected officials which have (not co-incidentally) the shortest tenure. Everything the House wants to do must happen in conjunction with the Senate- which, of course, was not an elected body, but rather an appointed body (Either by the State Senate or Governor, varying by state). The Electoral College prevented the population from directly electing a president (In rather forgotten terms, the College used to go through a number of ballots before selecting a president, and, if my memory serves correctly, there were at least three elections in the 1800’s where the person who technically should have won did not win in the College. These days, of course, the College is more a formality than anything).
    The Founding Fathers felt, rightly or not (and I do believe rightly), that some things were too important for the educated people to not have a say over. And it shows. I am 24, and I am disgusted to find that there is almost nobody my age whom I can talk to about politics without them either rolling their eyes or getting a quisical look about them. They have no clue- and, more importantly, no interest- in politics and how it is shaping their world. Even at an age when they should be thinking independently, the few who bother to vote vote the same ticket as their parents did. Is this really democracy?
    We have a- theoretically- participative democracy. And the participate part means a little more than showing up on election day. It means understanding- and caring- about at least some of the issues involved. Before the last election, I asked some of those numb-skulls who they supported for president. Some on the right, some on the left. And whatever their answer, I added the follow-on, ‘Why?’ And I’ll be damned if not a single one gave a true, educated answer. They were voting Democrat because they were ‘for’ abortion (I don’t know any human being who is actually in FAVOR of abortion. Its other things, like patient/doctor confidentiality, healthy and clean abortions vs. coat-hangers in an alley, etc.), or Republican because they were against abortion. Their thinking really couldn’t expand beyond that.

  • 10 Castor- as to public apathy, ar- ’tis true. But on the Electoral college, it is far more than a formality. It is THE means by which a president must be elected. Actually, the popular presidential vote has NO bearing on the outcome of the election so far as the US Constitution is concerned, for better or worse. Now, the states can have laws that direct how the electors must cast their ballots according to some proportion of their respective popular votes ( and most do). The Supreme Court walks through it clearly in Bush v. Gore. And, to the dismay of many on the left, the case shows plainly that Bush never “stole” any election.

  • Majure, I quite agree with you. My point, in this instance, is merely that the Founding Fathers deliberately decided NOT to leave the presidency up to the masses. The Electoral College (Again, apppointees) would be made up of the educated, who could do whatever they wished, regardless of the population’s wishes.
    Now, as to Florida 2000, there are several things to note:
    1- if the vote count had been a couple hundred to the other side, the Republicans would be crying just as loud (I think that’s fair to say). That being the case, it is a legitimate issue to look into fixing before the next incident.
    2- on roughly 6 million votes cast (don’t dissect my numbers too much, just rather rough ones here) a difference of 537 is a statistical tie. At that point, the number of cast-off (un-counted) ballots from BOTH sides far out-weighs the margin of error. Some system needs to be in place to either a)do some sort of run-off, or b)have a 0% error rate. (probably A)
    3-The Federal elections need to be standardized. There is NO reason that one state should have a different method for its votes than another. Any deviation from this is impossible to reason. I shouldn’t move from one state to another and have any difference in how (or whether) my vote counts.
    4-It’s probably time to move to a simple national election- winner takes all. I know, I know, so Gore would have won 2000, and Bush 2004, so both sides hate this. But the simple fact is that people from small states (red and blue) have a HUGE vote increase over a person from a large state. I am from Vermont, and there are only 550,000 people in the entire state. That’s a small city in the rest of the country. (Okay, so this is one that both sides hate. They would actually have to campaign across the country, rather than focusing on a couple ‘battle-ground’ states. OTOH, election turn-out could increase, by a lot, since votes would actually matter. I know a bunch of Republicans in Vermont who stayed home election day, because they knew Kerry was taking the state. I bet the same thing happened with Democrats in Texas, etc. Maybe if people felt that their vote COULD make a difference, they would show up…)

  • Oh, and just a *snide* comment about those pesky state elector laws- Most of them proscribe something like a $1,000 fine for voting for the other guy. There are no really heavy penalties for changing their vote, so vote-changes are a realistic possibility (however unlikely).

  • While there are few people more policy wonkish than I am, I think this misunderstands the theory and practice of politics in a Republic. Most voters choose political leaders, especially presidents, on the basis of their personal measure, not the composite of issue positions they advocate. Most voters rightly assume that they are in no position to evaluate public policy, but they judge PEOPLE all the time and use the electoral process as an opportunity to weigh the candidates in terms of their judgement, trustworthyness and temperament. One of the reasons that Dems have done so poorly in National politics is that they have largely lost sight of that (or their consultants have), with the result that they engage in the sort of nuanced positioning that convinced voters that war hero Kerry lacked courage and conviction.

  • And, economaniac, which people really are better leaders? The ones who see everything in Black-and-White, or the nuanced ones? It’s the shades of gray which define our world, and those don’t tend to fit very well into a 30-second sound-bite (Actually, I think the sound-bite is down to 8 seconds…).
    It’s simple to say, “I am against abortion”. It’s much harder to say, “I don’t like abortion, but abortion is a reality we have to deal with. If we make it illegal, women will still get them, but they will get them in un-sterile conditions, and will not have access to psychological help to make a choice. Many women will die, many more will end up with mental trouble if we make it illegal.”
    It’s simple to say, “Saddam must fall!”. It’s much harder to say, “But then what? Sure, we can kick any Army’s ass on the ground, but what about the day after? How do we provide security, how much is it worth to our nation to pacify and rebuild another nation?…”
    It’s simple to say, “American’s have the right to bear arms!”. It’s much harder to say, “But, do we really need M-16s or AK-47s on our streets? Weapons made to kill people only have one purpose- to kill people. Unless we are encouraging people to kill other people, the average guy in LA does NOT need an assault rifle… However, there is no reason why the guy out in Montana can’t keep his shotgun around, because he goes hunting with it.”

    The examples are endless, and they all point to that same un-educated, non-caring populance. A caring populance UNDERSTANDS the difference between a shotgun in LA and a shotgun in Montana. One is being used for two-legged hunting, and the other is used for four-legged hunting…

    I especially find that the most amusing part about how people vote is that they vote for the person most harming to them. For example, I wholly understand that management levels and above voted for Bush. After all, he has given them many hand-outs in the past four years. You don’t bite the hand which feeds you. But there are many many more red-staters who didn’t receive any benefits from him, who were actually harmed by his policies. But since he stood up and told them he was helping them, they believed him.

    I like to think of it as, “Who are you going to believe, me or your lying paycheck?”

    Or, my favorite example. Since 9/11, Bush and his underlings have made numerous comments as to how civil servants are at the forefront of the terror war, having been killed in the Pentagon, Iraq, and Afghanistan. How their service to the country is so heroic, etc. And, to show his gratitude, he has attempted, EVERY YEAR SO FAR, to kill their pay-raise, since it would cost too much money… So, just to re-cap, we are now heroes, but we ain’t worth paying an extra dime for being (un-armed) targets out there. Thank you, Mr. President!

  • A quick quip to Castor Troy about the whole guns debate: If Sadaam Hussein had been a member of the NRA, would Wayne Lapierre have defended Sadaam’s right to keep and bear WMD? The right-wing gun nuts always warn about the government guys in black helicopters wanting to take away our weapons, wasn’t that what happened to Sadaam?

    I think there are a number of reasons for this belief in a polarized populace:
    1. The Bush Administration’s “bubble boy” approach to communications. Complete control and scripting of the message, the messengers and access to leaders have stiffled the open debate of ideas by our leadership. The government makes pronouncements and doesn’t have to engage in discourse to defend its reasoning. That’s the way things are, end of story.
    2.A lazy media. Does anyone seek out the middle? News reports grab one view from the right, one from the left and calls it good. Very, very seldom is anyone featured who disagrees with both sides or whose opinion in somewhere in the middle of two extremes. We have transformed newsgathering into collecting and reciting political cliches. Plus, how often does the news media question pronouncements made by leadership? An amazing number of news stories are simply press release journalism: here’s what the adminstration say, period. The fourth estate is seriously slacking off.
    3. Packaging. Framing of debates through slick packaging removes the substance and makes a political issue all about veneer. When the Schiavo debate becomes all about “pro-life” vs. “pro-death” the debate is dead on arrival. You’re either for it or against it. The media doesn’t seem to want to dig deeper.
    4. We’re getting the government we “deserve”. Until the electorate gets away from chosing leaders solely by image, party affiliation or charisma, we’re going to wind up with non-substantive debates and poor choices for leaders. Maybe if we decide to chose the smartest leader instead of the guy who’d you’d rather have a beer with or who is less boring we’d have better government and we’d make reasoned decisions rather than decisions based on fashion.
    5. Herding the sheep. Ministers discriminating against Democratic parishioners. The K Street project kicking out Dem lobbbyists. The public isn’t just choosing sides, but having partisan choices forced upon them.
    The list goes on …

  • Why can’t we just call these people who were undecided in the months leading up to the election what they were and are: dipshits. Undecideds ignorant about the issues? What a shocker. Here’s the real baffler: what would possess someone so willfully ignorant to want to vote in the first place. Why not just stay at home election night and watch “Celebrity Wife Swap-Extreme Makeover Edition” on Fox or chow down at the Shakey’s buffet like they do every other night? Did they get a feeling of empowerment when they voted for “American Idol” and thought it would be neat to vote for real? I’m only half joking about my befuddlement. I really don’t understand why a person who doesn’t give a damn about what’s going on in this country and the rest of the world would bother to go to the polls, wait in line, and vote.

  • The undecided voter (I refrain only with great effort from expanding on that moniker) is all too often simply too intellectually lazy to think and reason and pay attention to much of anything. And a rejection of reason—willfully or blindly—is endemic in (or one might go so far as to say a prerequisite for) religion, especially as it slides to the fundamentalist extreme. Which is why the confluence of religion and Republicanism has given that party such power. It’s just so easy to herd sheeple who are in the habit of rejecting logic and rationalism or, indeed, who consider such rejection a badge of holiness. Having spent years puzzling over the whole religion issue, with fundies in my own family so I can check them out up close, I have yet to comprehend how educated people can bring themselves to willfully reject reason in favor of faith. Of course true believers would nod knowingly at such a remark, seeing it as an obvious sign of my just not “getting it” and perhaps hand me a glass of Christorepublican Kool Aid. But really, I’m baffled. I mean, we’re fighting the friggin’ battle of natural selection here in the 21st century! And literally millions of people are clueless to the extent they believe the earth is 6000 years old and Adam and Eve lived with dinosaurs.
    What happened to the USA in this regard that didn’t happen to Europe? These controversies here are looked at with derision from there. Could it be that political superiority encourages the sort of sanctimoniousness and false certainty that are the hallmarks of fundie faith? Is it possible that the destruction of Europe in repeated wars and the loss of their empires shook their false conceptions of themselves as superior to the point that they became more egalitarian because of those traumas? We in the USA have yet to experience the loss of empire, the brutality of war in our own streets and the destruction of our society, and thus can more readily accept the sort of absolutism that are hallmarks of both religion and American jingoism. Do our citizens have to be crushed by calamity before they’ll get over their extreme individualism and start to think like a family, where we watch out for each other and make sure all are elevated to at least a position of basic respect, socially and economically?
    I’m just asking. I really ponder this, because to me the wholesale rejection of logic is just so, well, illogical. Pardon my rambling, what were we talking about again?

  • I feel as though I am a person who can be swayed on issues (just recently against social security privatization, which I initially supported and historically I was far more liberal than I am now – thanks Clinton). I think the problem in today’s political discourse is that every issue is taken as a test of loyalty. You’re a Dem, and you have concerns about the welfare state?!?!? Well, you are obviously a closet Repub. These sorts of litmus testing can be seen on all sorts of comment sections. Check out DailyKos and Washington Monthly (any posts even incidentally related to the DLC will do fine) and you will see how blasphemous some people consider straying from the party line. I agree that the Coulters and Michael Moores of the world have been a large problem on this front. I think an idea has no merit if you cannot make arguments (philosophical and pragmatic) in favor of it when put to the test. Facts just matter less in our public discourse. Look at Bush’s position on stem cell research to see this.

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