Sunday Discussion Group

August 14, 2005

I sure hope he doesn’t mind, but Kevin Drum posed a terrific discussion-group topic this week, so I’ve decided to steal appropriate it for our Sunday gathering.

The topic is nice and simple: why aren’t Dems winning more elections? What, exactly, is going wrong?

Kevin narrowed it down to the 10 leading possibilities.

1. Too socially liberal. Need to move to the center.
2. Too wishy washy. Need to be loud and proud liberals.
3. Too tin-eared. We’re terrific on the issues, but we need to frame them properly.
4. Too wimpy. Need to convince Americans we can kick Osama’s butt.
5. Too wonkish. People don’t want laundry lists, they want character.
6. Too gutless. Need to get down in the gutter with Karl Rove and rip his lungs out.
7. Too shortsighted. Need to create liberal versions of the Heritage Foundation to help us build long-term vision.
8. Too tired. Need to break loose from the past and offer fresh, original ideas.
9. Too splintered. Need to quit pandering to the interest groups that actually vote for us.
10. None of the above. It’s the media’s fault.

If I were to add a #11, it’d be that we’re just not very good at the whole “campaigning” thing. We nominate people who would make excellent public officials, instead of those who make excellent candidates, and always seem to be a step behind when Republicans go on the attack. When it’s the election season, we’re playing softball, they’re playing hardball.

So, what’s the deal? Why aren’t more people voting for us?

Two more:

12. Outspent. Need to spend more, or make them spend less.
13. Too backwards. Republicans, particularly under Rove, run a high-tech pinpoint operation to maximize return on resources deployed. Democrats flail around, flail, and then engage in bloody internecine navelgazing.

  • Most corporations are behind the Republicans because they deliver the goods for them, since our media depend on advertising to survive is not suprise that Fox is making a killing on revenues. If we stand for Civil rights, Human Rights. workers and middle class interest, we have no chance in today America, that is why our politicians are so timid and undecided. Money talks, BS walks, and we are still marching.

  • 14. rigged elections
    and number 6 – we’re not getting our msg out there – we are too “proper” and don’t say what needs to be said when it needs to be said

  • The interesting thing is that the Republicans seem to fare well when very “hot-button”, national issues are the focus (terrorism, abortion, gay marriage, etc.), but Democrats seem to fare relatively well when more substantive, every day issues are on the table. Dems seem to be do better at the local level, even in some “red” states where Dem governors have been elected of late.

    Republicans are out to win campaigns (at whatever cost), while Democrats are trying to be elected to be good representatives.

    I think that, ultimately, the populace will see the folly of the Republicans’ ways and things will begin to swing back toward the left a bit. The Republicans seem able to get their way for a while before they step all over themselves.

    I do, however, wish that the media would be more dogged in their collective pursuit of this administration’s misdeeds, of which there are MANY. They may have found the right formula for winning an election, but their ability to govern in an ethical manner is non-existent. Sooner or later, that HAS to catch up to them. Unfortunately, too many people aren’t paying attention.

  • Too fucking nice. We can have our public officials out there being diplomatic but, behind the scenes, we need to have attack dogs galore to spread rumours and gossip, go ad hominem in the most frightening of ways, be as bloody direct as possible on screen and in the papers, etc. Once we get into power, then we can try to change the system so it works in a more transparent, fair way for all. For now, as long as we are out of power, we will stay out of power unless we learn to sink our teeth in and rip flesh out.

  • I see three problems:
    1.) Democrats (by which I mean primarily candidates and pundits) are not trustworthy representatives of the people’s interests. What the Democrats need more than anything else are some people, who are what O’Reilly pretends to be — on the side of ordinary people, and willing to tell the simple truth. Most of those in the Democratic elite are more loyal to the elite than to the Democracy, and it shows.
    2.) Big Media is entirely in the hands of Republicans. The corporate, right-wing and center-right Media is all the Media there is. If I could have Dean do one “out-of-the-box” thing, it would be to go to General Electric and buy editorial control of MSNBC for five years. Many Democrats seem to be passively waiting for the press to “go after” Bush like it went after Clinton and Gore; it ain’t gonna happen. Richard Mellon Scaife paid for Whitewater; if Democrats want a scandal, they will have to pay for it.
    3.) Democrats need to worry less about how to present themselves (no one believes a politicians self-presentation anyway)_and more about how to present the Republicans. Democrats need a short litany summarizing Republican aims: “impoverish the middle class in service to corporations and the very rich” or similar and repeat it endlessly. No Democrat should ever miss an opportunity to read the Republican mind, and tell the Truth about that slimy repulsive place.

  • #1 we don’t play enough hard ball and the rethugs are experts at it
    #2 The media is almost entirely owned by the rethugs
    #3 We have lot’s of DINO’s
    #4 millions of people believe in all of the lies they are told by the rethugs……even people I would call smart…..
    #5 people think that CAFTA is good, the bankruptcy bill is good, that BUSH is good for the military, that BUSH is religous and cares about ordinary people……If only these people could realize that the rethugs are for big business…..that the new world economy has destroyed middle america and enviromentally destroyed many third world countries, that our goverment is one of the most corrupt and needs to change
    #6 so be clear on our message, don’t be a dino, stand up for the people and our enviroment, get tough on big business instead of helping them ship jobs over sea’s, fight back when slandered by the rethugs
    #7 send Karl Rove to prison

  • Actually represent liberal America, return to the roots because as much as we prefer to believe at least one of the parties has our interests at heart… It just isn’t so at a national level. Take the patriot act. Only one vote was cast against it in the senate. By no means is that the only issue that demonstrates that both parties are out of the center and in the right, but it is the first example brought to mind.

  • I hate to say this, but I think the country isn’t worthy of the Democratic Party anymore (the Party that was, anyway).

    Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
    As I foretold you, were all spirits and
    Are melted into air, into thin air:
    And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
    The cloud-capp’d towers, the gorgeous palaces,
    The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
    Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
    And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
    Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
    As dreams are made on, and our little life
    Is rounded with a sleep.

    Over the last fifty years or so, we have become a nation of primarily selfish, isolated, fearful (or bored), purpose-less, tasteless, non-passionate and uncompassionate, artless, incurious, brain-dead consumers, unaware of any past, willing to bankrupt any future, i.e., perfect targets for what (little) the GOP has to offer.

    This isn’t just an abstraction. Most of us have our own house in our own cul de sac, our own (individual) car(s), our own rooms, our own TVs, our own iPods plugged into our own ears, our own cell phones, our own cubicle or office, our own computer, our own water bottle, in-home laundry, private baths/toilets, shopping for anything over our home computer. We are not required to share anything with anyone anymore and, partly from that, we have forgotten how to stand in anyone else’s shoes.

    The Democratic Party used to see election as the means to realizing many worthwhile goals, most of which required the power of government to enforce or to amass the wherewithal for achieving. Many of those massive, transformative goals have already been achieved. We seem to have shrunk away from follow-through on the rest and on recognition of any new ones.

    Getting elected has become much more expensive and demanding of the time and attention of candidates and party officials. The GOP has always had a corporate goose to lay its golden eggs, and labor has basically collapsed. Still, these are just excuses. What’s lacking are the kinds of GOALS the party used to proclaim, even foolishly, always with hope and a call for common sacrifice … large-scale, transformative goals for the downtrodden, for nation and the world. Without those, we have become, and will continue to be, only a poor (in several senses) version of the GOP.

    The only significant Democrats I see on the national scene at the moment are the ghosts of Kennedy/Johnson, the hopes of Barack Obama, and the reality of Cindy Sheehan.

  • I will attempt to answer each of Kevin Drum’s 10 points.

    Point 1 – Too socially liberal. – Strongly disagree. The Democrats do have ideological diversity, which should be emphasized.
    Point 2 – Too wishy washy. – Strongly agree. Need to be loud and proud, both liberals and moderates.
    Point 3 – Too tin-eared. – Strongly agree. We do need to frame the issues better.
    Point 4 – Too wimpy. – I agree. We do need to convince Americans that we can kick Osama’s butt.
    Point 5 – Too wonkish. – I disagree. Like framing, we need to do a better job of educating the public about policy.
    Point 6 – Too gutless. – Strongly agree. We need to fight as hard and with as much treachery as Karl Rove, the Swiftboaters, et al.
    Point 7 – Too shortsighted. – Strongly agree. We need to create and foster liberal versions of the Heritage Foundation to help us build long-term vision.
    Point 8 – Too tired. – I disagree. Although, the Democratic party could always use some fresh ideas.
    Point 9 – Too splintered. – Strongly disagree. The Democrats need to target independent voters more often.
    Point 10 – None of the above. – I disagree. Although, the slant of the media and its laziness are significant to the public’s understanding of policy and politics.

  • The critique advanced by Mark Schmitt and others that the Democrats suffer from “policy literalism” strikes me as well taken. The public is with the party on most issues, but there’s no unifying vision. So I guess that’s “too wonkish” (and I am a wonk by profession, so I feel comfortable making that criticism). I guess that encompasses #3 and #5.

    There’s also the fact that we as progressives are fighting against a view of government–that it’s “the problem, not the solution”–that advantages the other side from the jump. Despite the fact that public programs and safeguards enacted by Democrats or progressive Republicans, from Social Security to the FDA, have served the country well, we never make the affirmative argument that “Democrats put the government to work for you.” Maybe it’s time to start.

    But I think “too splintered,” #9, also figures into it. Whether this is the fault of the interest groups or the candidates who pander to them can be endlessly debated, but I’m of the opinion that the groups on the other side allow their candidates much more tactical flexibility than ours do. When the perception is that the donors and lobbies are calling the shots, the party looks weak. (I’m hoping we’re able to nail the righties on this next year… but the problem is that enough Democrats supported outrageous measures like the Bankruptcy Law that the charge might not stick.)

  • I think that Ed has a good point, maybe we are casting pearls before swine. I know that when I talk to people that depend on Social Security disability that think the program should be eliminated there is something seriously wrong and don’t even get me started about the issue of a flat tax, I’m hearing people swallow this hook line and sinker without even questioning whether the numbers add up or not.

    People are getting the corporatocracy that they deserve.

  • Mark,

    A late friend of mine, long-ago senior professor, used to tell me as he was headed off for class, “I’m off to cast my artificial pearls before real swine.” It’s not quite that bad yet, but it’s getting there.

  • Well one big problem is that the Republicans have such great rhetoric, becuase they don’t give a shit about reality or being able to fulfill their promises. So they can promise taxcuts and to not cut spending; along with all kinds of tough-guy but meaningless things that they can’t sustain for long. And I think this is now starting to bite them in the ass, and that the next few election cycles will bare this out. The Repub governors are already reneging on their “no tax increase” ideas, and being attacked by the Norquists for it. And it’s just a matter of time before they all have to return to reality-based rhetoric, or be removed from office.

    But the other problem is that the Dems only have one Harry Reid. A few dozen more of him in Congress would really make things start shaking. And finally, they really need to bite the bullet and hire me as their brains. Short of that, hiring the Carpet Bagger would be an excellent idea too. I’d have put him before me, but I’m a little partial to that consulting money, and would like my name at the top of this gravytrain ticket.

    But overall, I don’t think there is much we need to do at all, besides being tough and sticking to our guns. The elections past will not match the elections future, and the Repubs are slowly but surely wearing out their welcome. If I didn’t know any better, I’d swear they were doing all this on purpose, just so they can go back to the halcyon days of being a permanent minority; which doesn’t need to worry about fulfilling promises or making government work.

  • Too political and careful. Paul Hackett provides a useful model: he spoke out and stood for something without backing and filling. In other words, too many things being said to get elected. It comes across as a lack of spine.

  • We pick horrible national candidates. How many more times are we going to pick a “liberal” from the north east and hope to win? And with HC on the horizon, we’re setting ourselves up to do it again! We need someone like Wesley Clark. Tough, plain spoken, fantastic military background, popular in the south, and smart as hell. Watch him kick ass on Fox.

  • Huge part of the debate can be blamed on the spin’sters at FOX News 24/7 spewing atrocious disinformation and righwing hoopla discrediting anything the democrats do, demonizing them by referencing sources as “somepeople say……” Ratings give them bigger numbers than CNN and other major network news channels. FOX tells the ‘head in the sand’ (like shepherd like sheep) American majority (50.7% ) responsible for all this madness in the first place, what it wants to hear; nothing remotely resembling the truth.

    Thankfully I saw “A MUST-SEE MOVIE NO MATTER WHAT YOUR POLITICS ARE.” –Christian Science Monitor before the election. Yes, “Outfoxed.org” should be aired in every American household. After seeing it myself before the election I wasn’t too surprised by the controversial outcome. Too bad the rest of North America [Yikes, they’re now allowed to spread FOX lies in Canada are they? Yes, FOX News finally has permission from the CTRC (Canadian air media regulator) to spew their bullshit here.] Good news is, Freedom of Speech is alive and well in Canada; the bad, it has to allow FOX crap to air.

    Check out the link above, see the “Outfoxed.org” dvd and you’ll possibly answer the question asked in this forum. namasté

  • I’m probably going to get punched in the face here for this, but here in the deep (red) southeast the Dem’s support for civil rights & affirmative action are killers for the party.

    A few years ago I worked at a bank & a LOT of the guys there would regularly refer to african-americans as “Democrats”. The people at the job I’m working now seem to have this “understanding” that if you’re white, you vote GOP – if you’re black, you’re a Dem.

    This, obviously, isn’t the ONLY reason, and NOBODY’s going to come out & admit it, but it seems pretty darn pervasive to me.

    (BTW – I am, by no means, suggesting support for these things should be abandoned by the party, I’m just sayin’…)

  • GMF,

    Let me put up my guard on your behalf. LBJ called it when he signed off on the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act (’64 & ’65). “There goes the Solid South,” he said, and he was correct; Nixon’s “Southern Strategy” took full advantage, and the GOP continues to do so. Democrats did the right thing then, and we’ll be paying for it for some time to come. One of the last “great things” we’ve come up with unfortunately.

  • 11. No 50 state strategy!

    We barely exist as a party in most of the country, and then wonder why we aren’t a player.

  • 14. rigged elections

    Um, I don’t think so. I would say: 1. RIGGED ELECTIONS!!!

    Not to be too tinfoil hatty here, but everybody who thinks Bush won even one of the last two elections legitimately please raise your hand. And do you see the electoral systems in the few swing states (which shouldn’t exist but for our abysmally stupid electoral college system) being fixed for the next go-round? And does anybody honestly think that some of these voting machine shenanigans aren’t (or haven’t been) used for Congressional races? How to explain the heretofore unheard-of disparities between exit polling and final results?

    Get that fixed and then we can talk about strategy. Until then, we’re screwed.

  • Thanks, Ed.

    Nixon’s “southern strategy” was in the back of my mind as I thought about my post – it’s a sad fact that 30 years later, it’s still in play. I really pains me to say that there’s still a good deal of racism down here.

    I can’t decide what’s worse, the fact that it IS still in effect or that so many people down here deny that’s the case.

  • I vote for a combination of several:
    1. We’re not too socially liberal on the coasts but we’re not fielding candidates in other states that embrace traditional Democratic programs (envrionment, health care, social services, education, etc.) that also reflect the regions social norms. You can be for all of the above and still go hunting and be a NASCAR fan.

    10. It is the media’s fault . . . kind of. The Frank Luntz symbolic image and positioning campaigns, replete with flags and jingoistic phrases, are better suited to broadcast media where most voters get their info. Television could care less about policy and issues, no matter what they say. Democrats need their own compelling symbols that capture a sense of their mission.

    To do this, we need (No. 7) liberal think tanks that can develop a coherent long-term vision for Democratic candidates that counters the Republican mantras (“no new taxes, ownership society and cetera). We can’t rely on individual candidates’ — or even the DNC’s — ad agency de jeur to re-create this every two years, then drop it the day after the election. Republicans at least say the same stupid thing consistently, which gives it (and them) some staying power.

  • 11. Jesus freaks.
    Yes, it’s scary, but Evangelicals are the fastest growing religious group in the nation. And these people organize and vote. Polls show that the majority of Americans agree with the Democrats on the issues… but they can’t be bothered to vote. Too busy drinking lattes and listening to their iPods, I suppose
    12. Weakening of Unions
    The recent split from AFL-CIO was over the issue of aggressively recruiting new members. Hopefully, soon, the Wal-Mart type of jobs that replaced unionized manufacturing jobs that went south after NAFTA will be unionized…

  • note:

    air america minnesota just took a popular local morning host off the air for criticizing democrats’ unanimous. support for the war. al franken, last i heard, opposes immediate troop withdrawl; gov ed rendel (sp?) believes in universal conscription; whereas, gene mccarthy or bobby kennedy would have been there with ms sheehan. the afl-cio split while the communications workers were about to strike qwest and the mechanics were about to strike nw airlines.

    but widespread support in the party for universal health care would no small virtue if it wouldn’t be strangled at birth by the FACT no one will EVER diminish the influx of people across the southrrn borders; therefore making social benefits impossible to extend without bankruptcy.

    so that’s the question: is imperialism plus the false promise of workable public healthcare worthy of support?

  • President Lindsay – did you see that there is even concern about how voitng is happening on the hill now? Its also electronic. CAFTA passed 217 – 215 but at least one guy (Taylor) said he voted the other way. So at best it was really a tie. Will this ever be addressed? Nothing tin foil about the statistical probability that over 90% of the errors in an election were in favor of one candidate. Not possible. Definitely RIGGED ELECTIONS.

  • Simple.
    It’s easy to win if you lie, cheat, and bribe.
    I think I speak for a lot democrats when I say that if we sink to that level, I am out. I’d rather lose with integrity, than win at all costs.
    And I think that one of the major idealogical difference between that liberal and conservatives.
    Maybe I am just a optimist, but I would like to believe that integrity will win in the end.

  • Although I tend to agree with at least some of what everyone else has said, I ‘d like to throw my support behind Slip Kid No More’s analysis.

    Finally, given the reality of the Southern Strategy, I think we can dispense with the illusion of a 50 state strategy. We can win a few southern states (ARK, FL, NC, VIR, and West VIR come to mind), but we shouldn’t sell our soul to buy Mississippi, Alabama or Texas, much less the other southern states.

    Instead, I think we should work the electoral college for all its worth and stake our claim on the Western states. The biggest population growth states are Nevada and Arizona. They have their issues, but we can still win them. Add in Montana and Idaho and we have an electoral strategy that can win. Does this mean we ignore the Southern States or their beloved NASCAR? No. Do we transparently pander to them though? No.

  • We’re too wonkish. Our candidates need to quit trying to sound like the smart guys they are, and realize that the public wants LEADERSHIP from them, not the biggest brain. The leader should have the brains to back him up, but if he’s not a genius, people don’t really care (Bush should be sufficient proof of THAT).

    Americans in general are rather uninformed, and too busy to get informed about more than a few issues, if any. The swing voters must be spoken to in terms that don’t require them to do a lot of homework to understand. We should be using focus groups made up of “average” Americans who can’t tell shit from Shinola.

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