The last taboo

The University of Minnesota published an interesting study this week on the last minority that Americans really don’t like.

American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell added that Americans seem to appreciate diversity, just as long as “every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy,” and theism is that “core.” Respondents associated atheism “with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.”

This isn’t terribly surprising — similar polls have offered similar results in recent years — but it strikes me as disconcerting anyway. I realize the poll suggests a fear among Americans about “moral decline” and “social disorder,” but do theists really see atheists as undermining society? Based on what, exactly?

“Based on what, exactly?” I should think that’s obvious:

Absolutely nothing, save an instinctive ‘herd’ mentality that rejects anything notably different.

  • This is complete bullshit, you mean that I basically HAVE to pick a god to believe or nobody will like me? Does anybody believe somebody can just be a good person without a dominent deity? Do i scare people that much, nobody even knows I don’t believe in any god until I tell them, its only then do I get a reaction. It just goes to show how mindwiped people can actually get.

  • Well I think part of that comes from the most popular atheistic movements of recent history were communism and objectivism neither of which [although best intentioned] did well for showing the atheist in positive light.

    Both were highly demonized by religious cultures of the West so it is no surprise that theists think atheists as either “money grubbing sell your mother” selfish bastards or evil “steal everyone wealth and kill everyone” communists.

    From personal experience I think more people would be tolerate if more atheists were vocal about the lack of faith. Since atheists are just as moral as theists. It isn’t as though religious folk are free of terrible sins themselves.

    Or that religion hasn’t be exploited by “religious people” either.

  • IMO, it’s basically a throwback to the years when the Soviet Union’s offical atheism was seen as a threat, hence the introduction of “God” into the Pledge and on U.S. currency in the 50s, which encouraged a habit of castigating atheists in general. Most people really haven’t thought their opinions about atheists through, because they’ve never really met one.

  • A theist derives his morality from what he believes God tells him.

    An atheist uses logic to define his morality. Read Penn Jillette’s commentary for This I believe called “There is No God” to see just how dangerous this is to theists and theocrats.

  • Americans seem to appreciate diversity, just as long as “every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy,” and theism is that “core.”

    Funny I would have thought an allegiance to the secular Enlightenment-based principles enshirned in the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights is the “common core of values” that we all share as Americans.

    I guess I need to revise my judgement of my fellow Americans – evidently they would have not liked the likes of Thomas Jefferson, would they?

  • This is the line that really sticks to Pat Robertson, Jerry Fawell and Jimmy Swaggert.

    “Believing there’s no God means I can’t really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That’s good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.” – Penn Jillette

  • Jefferson again:

    “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter….But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do [away] with all this artificial scaffolding. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823, as quoted by E.S. Gasustad, “Religion,” in merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1986, p. 287.)

    It seems that reason and freedom of though in these United States are facing dusk now.

    See: http://infidels.org/library/moder/ed_buckner/quotations.html

  • I’m sure our resident demographer will have some insight on this phenomenon, but I suspect it has to do with the fact that most of those who are prejudiced against atheists don’t imagine that they’ve ever met such a person. It’s only as gays have become more visible that they’ve been increasingly accepted in US society, and though racial prejudice is still a crippling social disease, it was easier to view black people as aliens if you didn’t have a black doctor, lawyer, airline pilot, cop, etc. When an “out group” is invisible, all sorts of depravity is assigned to them without a second thought.

    Probably most imagine that an atheist is a disagreeable, truculent, unattractive commie type (think the late Ms. O’Hair). Hmm. Come to think of it, maybe they’re right and that’s why all of my girlfriends’ parents hated me so much when I was a kid.

  • Atheists are like anyone else. We have our rotten and good ones. Our bad and good ideas. Only real difference is that we don’t believe in a diety or that our souls are weighted by our goodness/sins.

    No religion can claim the moral high ground on “goodness” over atheists as history has shown that they cheat, lie, screw, steal, kill as well as we can.

    Too many times I’ve heard the comments that such and such is a good Christian or any other fill-in-the-blank relgion. Usually, that raises a red flag with me as it seems that the more one puts their religon on their sleeve, the bigger the a-hole they are. Unlike “good” Christians, DeLay, Cunningham or Harris, I’ve never been indited or investigated for breaking the laws of the state.

    I can only speak for myself. I’m the opposite, I’d have serious objections to marrying into a really religious family as I’d like my kids to find their own way without being loaded down with their mother’s religion.

  • Part of it is the mistaken belief that religion is the source of ethics and morality. Since atheists have no religion, they must have no morals or ethics, or so people believe.

  • The term “atheist” is a red flag to a lot of people. The term, a standard media soundbite, conjures up an image of someone with an aggressive agenda, like the people who regularly try to get “under God” taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance, or protested the Apollo astronauts reading from the Book of Genesis as they flew around the moon.

    “Three percent of the population are atheists” means what, exactly? Three percent being people with this aggressive agenda? Or people who are simple secularists, who live in the reality-based community, believe in empirical observation, and have, perhaps, a low-level, live-and-let-live or agnostic view of religion, who may or may not attend a house of worship? (And how many people who say they believe in God never attend a house of worship?) I would have thought this latter group would form a much larger portion of the population than three percent.

  • This really surprises me, especially since “moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism” is exactly what I associate with the Christian majority, and with Christian fundamentalists in particular.

  • Based on my observation, people in this country believe because they are afraid not to believe. After all, if there’s no god, then you have a bunch of scary issues you have to figure out for yourself — or admit that some questions cannot be answered. Rather than face up to all that, they pull this rabbit out of the hat called faith, which essentially is believing because you want to regardless of evidence or lack thereof. Bottom line: athesists threaten believers because athesim says this is all there is.

  • When yankeependragon criticizes atheists for an “instinctive ‘herd’ mentality that rejects anything notably different,” it sounded to me like a description that more aptly applied to Christians.

  • I agree – not unexpected but disconcerting. I’ve always
    quipped that atheists are only one rung above child
    molesters on the ladder, just below lawyers.

    As one who simply cannot understand why people believe
    in a God who created human beings and is deeply
    concerned with their affairs, I suppose it’s natural that
    I can’t understand their aversion to atheism, either. It’s
    baffling. Yet I’ve always felt it – not understood it, but
    felt it. You just get the sense that people not only
    despise atheists, but fear them as well.

    Something to consider. When have you ever seen,
    in the MSM or press, a positive description of atheism?
    Don’t these institutions really serve to reinforce, rather
    than dispel, such prejudicial attitudes?

    Personally, it scares the dickens out of me that the
    majority of people get their moral convictions through
    fear of the wrath of God, rather than their conscience
    and sense of empathy.

    Interestingly, many, if not most, of our founders were
    Deists, not Christians, who held a far more
    sophisticated worldview than half the American people
    today. It’s astonishing how many Christian Americans
    actually believe in the Old Testament nasty, arrogant,
    jealous deity, a God truly conceived and created
    by primitive, superstitious and ignorant people.

    I do subscribe to the theory that man created God,
    not the other way around. But I’m very careful about
    where I’ll admit that. Obviously, with good reason.

  • Matt, I took yankeependragon’s comment to be directed towards the Christians oad other believers, not the atheists.

    Does the survey distinguish between atheists and agnostics? My guess is there are many people who are afraid, for whatever reason, to admit that they don’t believe in religion, and so define themselves as agnostics. Easier to admit to not knowing the answer than to commit to not believing at all.

    As an atheist myself, I can tell you that most popele just don’t believe that I don’t believe. It’s so beyond their comprehension, they assume I don’t really mean it.

  • I think it’s more than unfamiliarity with atheism.

    Think about the beliefs that you may take for granted: the value of friends, or the importance of a family for young children, or the idea that helping other people is a good thing, or that democracies are better than dictatorships. Now you run into someone who says, “That’s fine for you, but for me it’s not important.” Not disagreement, but simple dismissal. You might be tempted to look at that person as some sort of freak.

    Similarly, a belief in God, even for someone who’s not overtly religious but believes that God created the world and everything in it, is so deeply held that it can be taken for granted. Even someone with different religious beliefs than your own at least cares enough about the basic premise to disagree with you on the details. An atheist says that none of the details matter, that the whole idea is ridiculous.

    Or not; it could be that religion gives meaning to people’s lives, and they can’t see how life could possibly be meaningful without it.

  • Best short essay ever on being an atheist: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

    … by Penn Jillette of Penn and Teller, for the NPR “This I Believe” series.

    “Believing there’s no God means I can’t really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That’s good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.”

    Required reading.

    Really.

  • It’s because “they” (the christianists) do not want to be the only idiots caught “believing”…it isn’t enough to be confident in their faith, others must believe so they can point and say “See, He/She (insert important person or celebrity here) is also a Christian (so I don’t look foolish in this club denying myself all these forbidden things).”

    Honestly, it has only become a rote thing for most of the religious – cuz there’s nothing else to do in small towns, etc. They don’t really “believe” believe – if they did would they ever sin or break a law or be mean-spirited, prideful, or judgmental, knowing as they do they risk an eternal lake of fire…no, it is only a way of bringing common ground to folks with little else in their lives.

    Embarassing really, how these small minds have laid waste to a great faith once based on mercy, love, tolerance, forgiveness, turning the other cheek and helping the poor, and turned them into angry and stupidly violent and vapid “believers”…

  • hark – I agree with you that man created god.

    Most Christians believe that god created man in his own image. When I hear that I always want to ask: Does that mean that god has nipples? Also, since god is assumed to be a male, does he have the, umm, standard male equipment? If so, why? Is there a Mrs. god?

    I would love to throw that question out to them sometime and see how they would react.

  • Not only am I an agnostic/atheist, but my parents are too. They’re hardly the indoctrinating types, they were always very respectful about people who were religious and told us that we could be whatever we wanted to be. I was really curious about world religions from a very young age. When I was in my teens I tried really explored and tried hard to believe in God– the childlike concept of God most people seem to have– but I just couldn’t. It just seemed like such a fantasy, so inescapable that people created God and not the other way around.

    My mom pointed out years ago that God-belief pretty much has to be an idea someone is raised with, that it is really hard to accept as you get older. That also means the people you encounter who were raised with a belief in God can’t comprehend a world without God’s hand. That there are people living happily without God is a serious threat to their entire belief system. Watch out for them, it’s best to keep your thoughts about it to yourself.

    However, to be frank, it was really pretty shitty to be an atheist kid in a society that equates goodness with believing in God, that you can’t be a good person and not believe. It’s the major reason I converted to Judaism a few years back, since being a Jew doesn’t depend on a childlike belief in God, heaven, etc. (I didn’t pick Judaism out of thin air– half of my family are Jews, they’re just very, very atheistic secular. It’s not a conflict.) It’s all about doing good works now. Not that being a Jew doesn’t mean you won’t be persecuted, but the major difference is kids of atheists don’t have communities. You’re pretty much all alone.

    Personally, over the years, I’ve fallen into another category than just atheist– militant agnostic. I don’t know and you don’t know either. No one knows and no one can know. So STFU already. Do something with your life and stop telling me how to live mine.

  • Many American Christians seem to have a deep-seated fear at the root of their belief: the fear of Hell. That fear insures their determination to be “good people,” and they assume that without that fear–which atheists do not have–everyone will be licentious, marauding hedonists. The idea that a person might simply CHOOSE to live responsibly is inconceivable: responsibility MUST be rooted in fear.

  • You’re welcome Semper. One of my favorite “proofs” for the existence of God appears in Aristophanes’ play “The Birds,” at least I think that’s the play in which appears. One character asks another if he believes in God, and the reply is: “Of course I believe in God. How else could we be so God forsaken?”

    I though Harris’s book was great and documents well the destruction organized religion has caused throughout the ages.

  • You forgot to mention smokers. They are definitely hated more than atheists.
    And you can openly discriminate against a smoker, not so true with atheists.

  • My recollection of my polisci training is that John Locke excluded two classes of people from his polity. Catholics, because they owed obedience to the Pope, and atheists, because they couldn’t swear an oath that meant anything. Even the Deists had it in for the poor atheists.

  • “I agree – not unexpected but disconcerting. I’ve always
    quipped that atheists are only one rung above child
    molesters on the ladder, just below lawyers.”
    –hark

    I guess as an atheist lawyer, I’m really screwed, then.

    Does anyone know how this compares to views of atheism in other countries? I’m inclined to think that Europe and Canada are a lot more tolerant toward non-belief than the U.S. is.

  • The term Atheist has terrible connotations, we should think in terms of an earlier post, atheists/ agnostics/ nonreligious/ empirical/ rationalists should name themselves. Dennett had a great article about this in the nytimes recently, he suggests “bright”, a noun not an adjective.

  • because they couldn’t swear an oath that meant anything.

    That’s rich, isn’t it? Like swearing an oath has ever stopped a religious person from committing transgressions.

  • I would question the veracity of this poll. I tell everyone that I’m an atheist and I’ve never had anyone take a negative disposition to me. Mind you, I am in California so may be I’d get a different reaction in Alabama.

  • Pratik,

    I think that has a lot to do with it. Not much anti-atheist animus in NYC, either (except from my mother-in-law, but that’s another matter). Try driving your Darwin fish into a red state and see what happens.

  • It is all relative depending on where you live– but my very negative experiences when I was growing were with other kids (or their parents) were not in a particularly religious area. Working class suburbs of Pittsburgh. Not exactly the bible belt. But I had more than one friend who wasn’t allowed to come over to my house anymore once they found out we were atheists.

    Frankly, as one of those lucky people who strattles many minority groups– lesbian, Jewish, agnostic/atheist, liberal– I find that I’d rather tell a stranger that I’m a liberal Jewish lesbian than an atheist. People get really funny around atheists, you’d be surprised.

  • I’m a Christian. I respect ones right to self determination of what one wishes to believe, or not believe, so long as the same respect is visited back to me for my right of belief or non belief.

    I fail to see how the absence of belief in God equates to a threat what so ever. The principle message of Christianity, as taught by the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to embrace, to pray for and to love our brothers and sisters and to carry to them the message of salvation. No where have I read that we should fear and isolate those who do not share our beliefs.

    Although the above article shows a sample of some 2000 calls made and a finding of results based on those calls, it is still inconclusive evidence. At best, it’s a minuscule sample of opinions. I for one would not rate anywhere in the sample, as expressed above. In fact, Christians should see “atheists, Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups” as fertile ground for sharing our beliefs with and openly embracing the individuals, not further isolating them. Otherwise, the Christian faith can only continue to exist through the institution itself, indoctrinating our children in our own beliefs and living in isolation from the very people whom Christianity is meant to embrace, the ‘non believer.’

    Sadly, whoever those 2000 “Christians” that were interviewed might be, the reported product of what they believe does not represent what I believe, and therefor they cannot represent me.

    Does that mean I am one of those “minority groups” also?

    The reality to me is simple: I don’t really bother to care what someone else believes or choses not to believe in. I don’t put that much weight on the opinions of others, until those opinions paint me with the same brush, and label me amongst those who do not represent me, yet claim to be.

  • ” Respondents associated atheism “with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.”
    Athiests are only 3% of the population yet they think we have the majority of criminal, materialistic behaviors? Better check again folks, starting with this administration, then your churches, synagouges, temples, etc.

  • As an atheist myself, I can tell you that most people just don’t believe that I don’t believe. It’s so beyond their comprehension, they assume I don’t really mean it.

    Comment by semper fubar

    Close to X-mas, my sister’s were having an ongoing joust regarding the kids being raised episcopal or r.c. I was drinking my wine, (cultural elitist that I am), and keeping my mouth shut. When asked for a contribution, I reminded them of my complete apathy concerning either option and said my perspective could only be described as atheistic. One sister, (episcopal), started crying, (not just for my soul but it was a last straw), and the other shook her head as if I had said I was going to start living on eggplant and fish emulsion until a carnation grew out of my ear. Her husband , (graduate of St. xxxxxxxx before heading off to Dartmouth), went to get another beer.

    It’s got to be a genetic thing. The theist’s religious passion is my tepid whatever. The unnecessity of it all is profound to me but if others need it, well it seems to be human nature, what am I going to do about it? Keep my mouth shut and live the Golden Rule. I don’t need no g*d to understand the basic legitimacy of that admonition.

    Two days ago I was privileged to catch a mating pair of Doves doing their flirty, flighty thing while I was home for lunch. Yesterday I got home and noticed a flat mat of twigs and leaves looking quite comfy and Dove shaped on the top of a telecom box about 20 feet away. At sundown Mom showed up and since then, she’s been a very diligent Mom while Dad watches and coos from the eave above. From my second floor balcony I will get to watch the whole process through to it’s fine result of a new Dove in the world.

    I don’t need a g*d to appreciate how cool that will be. I watch the Dove. She watches me. I can’t imagine how bringing a deity into the process would make it any more valid or fine.

    It’s got to be a genetic thing.

  • I think part of it is very simple minded “we need a ‘them’ so there can be an ‘us'” thinking. It is now gauche for racial or ethnic minorities to be the “them,” Islamists work great as a “them” overseas, but we need one in our backyard to make us feel all superior right here in our hometown. Since most everyone else in town is a good God-fearin’ Christian, the most of the rest are those Jews, that makes athiests an easy “them” target.

    On a less simple level, I think this is part and parcel of the anti-intellectualism that is rampant these days (and which I have bemoaned here before). The red-flag in the story was the linking of “athiest” with the buzzword “cultural elitist.” It just so happens almost every athiest I know (and I am actually somewhere between a Jeffersonian Deist and a Judeo-Christian-socialized agnostic) is well-educated, curious, and aware of current events. But redneck, er, red state America doesn’t want culture or intellect, so we demonize both by minimizing them into the “elite” (by which we mean something very different – we mean the haughty and arrogant). This also ties nicely to the fact that if we let Reverend Jim Bob tell us what to think, we don’t have to strain ourselves with all that thinking on our own. We can just follow and do.

    This post may have no point. I’ve stayed up past the effectiveness of my last dose of caffiene.

  • .
    Even though atheists are few in number,….. they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public.

    compared to the damage brought on by Bush and his faith based friends?
    Wake up America to the wolves in evangelical clothing.

  • Great. So now I have to pretend to believe in an invisible all-powerful sky-daddy or I don’t get to hang out with the cool kids? Dang!

    I guess I will just hang out with the 3% of the RATIONAL kids.

    I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints anyhow. I tend to distrust those who believe in things without any proof anyhow, without a solid footing in reality who really knows WHAT they will do next?

  • “…allow their children to marry”

    What is this? The 50s? What parents choose who their kids marry?

  • As a Buddhist, it troubles me that I almost never see Buddhism mentioned in this debate. Many or most Buddhists do not believe in a “creator-god.”

    I have never met an atheist who was not a good person. Indeed, most Christians I know do not behave according to their own moral code as well as the atheists I know.

  • Howdy ho to my fellow three percenters. One thing I have always wondered is how many of the Christians are ‘true’ believers? I mean how many of them would put life or limb on the line for their belief? And why oh why do they cling so tenaciously to this terrible pathetic life when they thing they are going to go off to be at the right hand of God in heaven when they die? If I believed that’s where I was going I’d be in more of a hurry to get there. At the very least I wouldn’t be pulling out all the stops to stay here. Sadly there is no shortage of hypocrisy on the part of the religious.

  • Well, being a gay atheist, I guess I should give up my 2008 presidential bid.

    Actually, in 2001, 15% of the population claimed to be atheist, agnostic or have no religion, a 105% increase from a decade earlier. That makes “none of the above” the second biggest denomination in America behind catholics and baptists. In that same period, the number of Evangelicals grew by an astounding 325%. However, they still only constitute 1/2 of 1% of all Americans. Even if you combine them with the ASSembly of godders, you still have just over 1% of the population. Obviously, those who believe make a hell of alot more noise than those who don’t.

  • God is an assertion made by anonymous people. I find it a lot easier to believe that the God I was raised to believe in is a fabrication of our superstitious ancestors than it is to believe that there could be a being with the ability to cure all sick children, who sits idly by and lets many of them suffer and die. If such a being turned out to exist, I sure wouldn’t be inclined to worship it.

    The religious people have been taught by their leaders to hate atheism because their leaders are threatened by it. Who would provide the money to support them if their followers stopped believing in the bogeyman?

  • I find the major religions to be different superficially, but they all cover the same basic concepts don’t they? Also, it’s the brand/team mentality that turns me off. Religion, or rather, one’s beliefs, should be a quiet and humble pursuit.

    Personally, I feel the greatest direct spiritual power from nature. I believe that reverence for nature is the default religion of all humans. Humans evolved in natural surroundings over hundreds of thousands of years and our brains are hard-wired to the ebb and flow of natural rhythms. Sadly modern society is taking us farther away from nature, bringing dire repercussions for both us and the environment.

    If I had to put a label on what I believe, I would have to say Secular Humanism is closest to my world view. I wonder if that makes me an atheist???

  • As someone stated above, I have not seen -too- much of this on the East or West coasts, but I tend to live in pretty diverse and educated areas (SF, NY, Boston).

    But while consulting in the mid-west I had to be VERY careful to keep my mouth shut about it, and was asked pointedly on a couple of occasions what my views were while out drinking with clients.

    The “I don’t discuss religion” response did not work in 1 case and as a result I lost the client because I would not lie to him.

    Very telling to me, I would not lie yet my non belief made me untrustworthy.

    I get the feeling that there is a very thin line of social fear (fear of legal retribution?) that keeps the religious from just stringing us up and burning us at the stake.

  • My dad, an atheist, offered to take a friend from work for a ride in his airplane. It got back to my dad that another coworker asked the friend “Are you really going to go up in an airplane with a man that doesn’t believe in God?!”

    On a side note, it is really a shame that atheists don’t do much in the way of organizing. All the atheists that I know are really fun quality people. It seems like there ought to be a social club for atheists and agnostics.

  • I always sort of lived in the apathetic Agnostic world after I decided I had no interest in becoming a soldier of the Catholic variation of God at the tender age of 14. To me religion was supposed to make you an ultimately fullfilled, and good person. I certainly didn’t feel fullfilled, and a thought the rest of my class mates were dinks whose primary concern was the Confirmation gift bonanza.

    Over the last couple of years I actually began considering what Atheism really was. I too believed that it was a place of cold elitism, that excused a spiritual wonder in the world. My search for fullment went though many depths of mythology, and I also considered Bhutism at one point. It didn’t take very much of a push before I realized that my truest belief was in fact that there was no God. Being able to think it, say it, and right it brought a very strong affirmation to my life. It was no longer a question, and certainly felt no less spiritual.

    But the general reaction is disbelief. My mom figures I’ll bounce back to being a good Catholic eventually. Others just out right say that I can’t possibly believe that, and I can’t be a good person for it.

    In the end when I read about phenomenon such as Old Hag Syndrome… while it’s fascinating to read the mythology behind it. For me it’s a heck of a lot more fascinating to read a scientific explanation, or break down the mythology into the parts of cultural history and identity.

  • Loved “Kiss Hank’s Ass’! What a riot! It makes perfect sense to anyone with a brain. Why people waste so much precious time on religous nonsense is beyond me!

  • atheists aren’t just criminal and immoral:

    “no, i don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. this is one nation under god.”

    — presidential candidate george h.w. bush, 1987

  • There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.
    There are known unkowns. That is to say, there are things we know we don’t know.But, there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we don’t know we don’t know.
    — (Donald Rumsfield, knows how to knowingly confuse his knowledgable Audience at a Pentagon briefing)

  • Numerous times while discussing religion (or lack thereof) with people, after I mentioned that I was an atheist, the reply was either “you don’t look like an atheist” (accompanied by a shocked expression) or “no, you can’t be an atheist… you’re a good person”.

    My reaction to the first, if I am thinking quickly enough, is “well, I file my horns down regularly”. The 2nd really pisses me off, since these are the same folks who would say “he speaks very well for a black man” or “he can’t be Jewish – he’s not cheap”. Heated debates have followed.

    For the really obnoxious folks who equate athiesm with amorality, I turn the discussion to superstitions, and equate their religion to an organized set of superstitions…

    Ultimately, I will fight for the rights of anybody to believe in any god they choose (or not choose), for the rights of people to not be forced to believe in any particular god, and for the rights of anybody to not be preached to.

  • Hi Everyone,

    I just wanted to let you know the locality of this phenomena.

    I.e……. this is very much restricted to the US.

    Beleive it or not, in the UK (where I live), it is those that outwardly profess religious conviction that are looked on askance and it is the non-theist or atheist that doesn’t raise eyebrows.

    Seriously, start a new job and confess to everyone at your workplace that you are an evangelical christian……… and, well, you won;t be getting any invites to the pub, they’ll just think you’re weird and a bit freaky (and I have real world experience of just this kind of thing happenning). Religious people, honest to god “I go to church every sunday” people, are veiwed as the slightly freaky and the atheist as the “normal bloke”.

    My experience of telling people I’m an atheist in the UK is usually outright interest……. generally I’ll tell them I’m an atheist and get the reply “Really ? You know I always sorta beleived ‘something there’, but I’m, not religious …. why do you think there isn’t a god ?” followed by 5-10 minutes of decent conversation on the issue (generally with the other person taking an interest and saying “Thats a relly good point, never thought of that before” at regular intervals). Never any outright hostitlity…. if anything, they display an eagerness to shed the “I sorta beleive in something up there” beleif that is the norm.

    Any of you “downtrodden US atheists” out there should try it next time you find yourself in Europe……. mention your anti-religious conviction and bathe in the acceptance for a change ! The attitude seems to be almost diametrically opposed to what you guys say about the US. Reading your guys experiences of being regarded as oddballs for just saying “yeah, I’m a rationalist” just seems really damn weird to me.

    Yours,

    TGP

  • Yes, it’s official. You cannot be a moral person in the United States without God. I heard a long-time commentator on Minnesota Public Radio throw out that rhetorical musing and, since we all know that Minnesota is liberal and public radio is liberal, it must be true. I have also heard a guest on public radio say that the president of North Korea is an atheist “and that is reason enough to hate him” and another commentator said nothing.

    My email to the station ombudsman on whether I would next hear fascinating discussion on whether darkies can dance did not get a reply. I stream foreign internet media now.

  • It used to be the rule of good ethical training to never ask a person what his religious beliefs were, it was rude….still is in my book.

    But those who whear their religion on their sleeve and call themselves the Religious Right are neither Right, nor Religious. They are now in power in ALL THREE HOUSES OF GOVERNMENT and look at the curruption we see. This debate is very old and tired. See below::

    We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
    Attributed to: H.L. Mencken

    All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different holidays
    Attributed to: Cathy Ladman

    All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different holidays
    Attributed to: Cathy Ladman

    Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
    Attributed to: Douglas Adams

    The fact is, most Athiest are actually more spirtual than those who claim to be religious religious, their minds are open and free to question authority. And most who claim to be religious, only do so because they are afraid of what others may think of them.

    Admitting Athiesm takes courage, jumping on the bus to jonestown takes a sheep mentality. ( yes, those who went to jonestown were religious)

    Before you go wild on me, I am Buddhist, we are millions, but not really a religion but more of a philosophy, one of Peace and Love of all of earths children and animals. We follow a path toward enlightenment. But alas, enlightenment is frowned on by most religions.

  • “God is Santa Claus for adults” – no idea who said that, but it’s the truth.

  • And where did this 3% figure come from that keeps getting mentioned? Is this the same as when the MSM keeps repeating that there is no scientific consensus on global warming, yet all of the scientific studies clearly conclude that it is real and that humans are largely responsible for it? The MSM helps perpetuate these ancient tribal beliefs and never ever questions it. If is so “real”, why is it that people only come to learn of it from other people? It’s not like someone can independently discover any religion. And what makes any modern day religion any more correct than the ancient polytheistic religions, or than each other, for that matter? Why were the Greeks and Romans wrong about their gods? How do we know God isn’t Muslim? The Faux broadcast a few months ago with the statement about Muslims worshipping the wrong god was ROFL funny. BTW, God must be endowed with all of the requisite manly possessions or else he could never relieve himself after over indulging in the sacramental wine.

  • To be an atheist in the US means having to be the cream of the crop of the most considerate, thoughtful people to walk the earth.

    I play music in other people’s churches and always am respectful, though I do not take part in their prayers and ceremonies (they mean nothing to me and to participate would constitute mockery). Believe me when you’re the only one in a crowd of several hundred people not going through the motions, one’s resolve is tested.

    When a Christian friend hears of my nonbelief, I’m usually given the “well, you just haven’t been called yet” or “I’ll pray for you”. Yet, if I were a Jew or Buddhist or any other non-Christian, I might be offended by the denigration of my beliefs.

    I’ve spent a fair part of my life reading and studying (I probably know biblical scripture better than most Christians) and cannot get past the idea that most religions are a primitive superstition designed to keep people in their place by threats.

    Yet, I can appreciate and understand much that religions have to offer. I think Jesus had some very good ideas on the way to act considerately toward one another. It’s just too bad that most Christrians don’t take his words to heart.

    I understand the reasoning behind movements like Liberation Theology and I wonder why most of the Christian world disdains it (including the Catholic pope).

    And to my thinking, most religions are the antithesis of the American way. Thoughts and opinions within any religious group must be carefully censored. If one questions the divinity of Jesus in a Christian congregation, he most likely will be branded as a heretic and expelled.

    Indeed, the Catholics are instructed as to the nature of “dangerous thoughts”, such as individual interpretation of Scripture.

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