Smug, red-state superiority

March 31, 2006

The New Republic’s Jonathan Chait, after being mocked rather relentlessly on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show for not owning a gun, brought some much needed attention this week to an interesting cultural phenomenon: [tag]red-state[/tag] elitism.

This is a very odd cultural moment we find ourselves in, where there is a stigma attached to not owning a gun or not having friends shipped out to Iraq. This isn’t a moral question; military service is obviously admirable, but knowing people who serve is no more admirable than knowing people who donate to charity. It’s a cultural question. Since Bush’s election, and especially since his reelection, liberals have grown painfully aware of the cultural gap with the white working class. The approved liberal posture is cringing self-flagellation. We brought the catastrophe of the Bush administration upon ourselves with our latte-sipping ways, and we must repent. Conservatives are gleefully pressing their advantage. Did you mourn Dale Earnhardt? Do you sport a mullet? Well, why not?

David Brooks, in his 2004 book On Paradise Drive, taunted blue-state liberals: “They can’t name five NASCAR drivers, though stock-car races are the best-attended sporting events in the country. They can’t tell a military officer’s rank by looking at his insignia. They may not know what soybeans look like growing in the field.”

Chait points to “an orgy of reverse snobbery,” and while I hadn’t thought about it before, it’s been hard to miss. Forget all that “metrosexual” stuff from a few years ago; “Americans” no longer live in big cities at all.

Tom Wolfe recently took this analysis a step further, declaring that the blue-state elites are not part of the United States of America. “They literally do not set foot in the United States. We live in New York in one of the two parenthesis states. They’re usually called blue states–they’re not blue states, the states on the coast. They’re parenthesis states — the entire country lives in between.”

Just yesterday, some of the folks at The American Prospect defended the magazine’s recent report comparing red states and blue states on a host of social indicators, and found red-staters falling short on everything from divorce to crime to drug use to sexually transmitted diseases. The complaint from the right, of course, is that TAP’s observation was itself an example of educated blue-staters filled with smug superiority.

But that’s what makes Chait’s observation so compelling. In Bush’s 2006 America, conservatives are the [tag]elitists[/tag]. You don’t hear liberals making fun of conservatives for owning a gun or watching car racing, but we seem to have reached a point in which the opposite is true.

Or is it? I’m opening the floor to a [tag]blue-state[/tag]/red-state smackdown.

So everyone has the facts at hand, here is the news from the American prospect (comments in parentheses are mine):

So, here we go:

Divorce:

In red states in 2001, there were 572,000 divorces. Blue states
recorded 340,000. In the same year, 11 red states had higher
rates of divorce than any blue state.

Teenage Mothers and Births Out of Wedlock:

In each of the red states of Louisiana, Mississippi, and New
Mexico, 46.3 percent of all births were to unwed mothers. In blue
states, on average, that percentage was 31.7. Delaware has the
highest rate of births to teenage mothers among all blue states,
yet 17 red states have a higher rate. Of those red states, 15
have at least twice the rate as that of Massachusetts. There were
more than 100 teen pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15 to 19 in 5
red states in 2002. None of the blue states had rates that high.
The rate of teen births declined in 46 states from 1988 to 2000.
It climbed in 3 red states and saw no change in another. (My
guess is this clearly demonstrates the superiority of
“abstinence-only” sex education and the stress among fundies
about virginity, eh?)

Violent Crime:

The per capita rate of violent crime in red states is 421 per
100,000. In blue states, it’s 372 per 100,000. The per capita
rate of murder and non-negligent manslaughter in Louisiana is 13
per 100,000. In Maine, it’s 1.2 per 100,000. (No wonder red
staters all feel a need to carry guns)

Domestic Violence:
As of 2000, 37 states had statewide policies or procedures to
address domestic violence. All 13 that didn’t were red states.

Alcohol and Drug Abuse:

The 5 states with the highest rates of alcohol dependence or
abuse are red states. The 5 states with the highest rates of
alcohol dependence or abuse among 12- to 17-year-olds are also
red states. The per capita rate of methamphetamine-lab seizures
in California is 2 per 100,000. In Arkansas, it’s 20 per 100,000.
The number of meth-lab seizures in red states increased by 38
percent from 1999 to 2003. In the same time frame, it decreased
by 38 percent in blue states.

Out-of-Marriage Sexual Activity:

Residents of the all-red Mountain States are the most likely to
have had 3 or more sexual partners in the previous year.
Residents of all-blue New England are the least likely to have
had more than 1 partner in that span. Residents of the mid-
Atlantic region of New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey were
the most likely to be sexually abstinent. Residents of the all-
red West South Central region (Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas,
Louisiana) were the least likely. Five red states reported more
than 400 cases of chlamydia per 100,000 residents in 2002. No
blue state had a rate that high. The per capita rate of gonorrhea
in red states was 140 per 100,000. In blue states, it was 99 per
100,000. (Yet more proof of the superiority of abstinence-only
sex ed)

As to that mendacious asshole Hugh Hewitt asking Chait whether he knew anyone who served, or owned a gun, Chait should have returned fire with the Standard Question For A Right Wing Patriot:

“So, Hugh, when did YOU serve?”

This is an easy question since the answer is always NEVER.

As to Baby Huey himself, I’ve met the moron at a PBS fundraiser here in El Lay. What a wuss!! He’s probably 4F, since he can’t see 6 inches without the coke-bottle-bottoms on his nose (I know since he managed to drop them – with a slight nudge from Yr Humbl Srvnt – and literally couldn’t have found the zipper on his fly with both hands.) He’s the kind of right wing “tough guy” (like Abramoff, Scanlon, etc.) who would be crying “Don’t hit me!” if you ever asked him to step outside and prove his manhood. He needs bodyguards to venture outside of Orangutang County (I have to find a better name for that swamp so I stop insulting an animal more intelligent than 99.99999999% of the white Republican bipeds in Orange County) and discover a world filled with People Not Like Me (i.e., people with brains).

One of these days, I hope to run across Baby Huey again and give him a swift kick between the legs – you’ll notice I didn’t say “a swift kick in the balls” since he has none.

Actually, I also need to stop calling Mr. Hewitt “Baby Huey,” since that’s an insult to a funny cartoon character, and “funny” is not a word that describes Orange County’s biggest patriotic pants-pisser.

  • All Hewitt, Brooks and Wolfe are doing is finger-pointing and jeering. There’s no need to do it in return, only to recognize it for what it is.

  • Has anybody asked David Brooks himself to name five Nascar drivers? I – being a coastal elite immigrant – don’t want to spend my free time watching stupid cars go around a track belching fumes. Fine sporting event – lots of fat people sitting around drinking beer in their trucks (I have driven by a Nascar race in progress).

    Why the hell should I do what everybody else does? Free country and everything, you know.

    I also don’t like baseball, football, or basketball. I do like apple pie though. And Mom (but she’s not American, sorry).

  • Well, I know that I’m not a real American because I live in the same state as 10% of the entire US population — add to that that I prefer opera to NASCAR, reading a book to watching Survivor, and latte to crank and I’m one pretty messed up, America hater.

  • The obvious question, at least in my mind, is for Chait to have asked, “Do you know anyone who has advanced the body of human knowledge in any meaningful way?” After all, without knowledge, our society would just be like Africa, rife with poverty and disease.

  • This is primitive and ingrained human behavior to which none of us is immune. Canetti in Crowds and Power (an incredibily informative book about human beings and their social organizations) writes:

    “In what does this pleasure [of judging others] consist? It consists of relegating something to an inferior group, while presupposing a higher group to which we ourselves belong. We exalt ourselves by abasing others. The existence of two opposing kinds, different in value, is assumed to be natural and ineveitable. Whatever the good is, it is there to be contrasted with the bad. We ourselves decide what belongs to each.”

    ______

    “Man has a profound need to arrange and re-arrange in groups all the human beings he knows or can imagine; by dividing that loose, amorphous mass into two opposing groups he gives it a kind of density. He draws up these groups as though in battle array; he makes them exclusive and fills them with enmity for each other. As he imagines them and wishes them to be, they can only be hostile. Judgements of good and bad are an age-old instrument of dualistic classification, but one which is never wholly conceptual, nor wholly peaceful. What matters is the tension between the groups, and this is created and continually renewed by the act of judgement.”

    “At the root of the process lies the urge to form hostile packs, which, in the end, leads inevitably to actual war packs….”

    You’re right David about what they are doing, but it is difficult not to the same in return. But as ever, consciousness of our own behavior enables us to modify it if we so desire.

  • I’m a proud and long-time liberal despite being from one of the reddest, red states, Indiana. And I’ve been liberal for more years than David Brooks has been conservative (or even thought about it).

    I not only can name five NASCAR drivers, I’ve probably met them and worked with them in motorsports at one time or another. I can tell you what “winter wheat” is and how it’s different from soy beans. I’ve shot guns but don’t own one myself. And if we’re going to get into this discussion, let’s talk about trucks, types of dirt, cheap beer (Red, White & Blue is a college favorite because it’s about $5 a six-pack) and whatever other redneck, “conservative” topics you want to bring up.

    Having said that, so what! BFD (big f**king deal for those non-koshers among us!) Any of the above doesn’t tell one frickin’ thing about the person, their beliefs, their politics or any other important characteristic. This so-called political snobbery is a bunch of s**t.

    [But I do wish some of my fellow Hoosiers would use their brain a bit more and get off the Kool-aid.]

  • You don’t hear liberals making fun of conservatives for owning a gun or watching car racing…

    Are you f—ing kidding me? Of course you do! All the time.

    This is not to deny the phenomenon of red state elitism. Not only does it exist, but it is the dominant form of elitism in America today. But, geez, that statement is way over the top.

  • Well, no matter what, the red states will still be sucking in the federal tax money from the blue states. And red staters will still be sending their kids to blue states for college, jobs, and abortions.

  • This whole thing is a pile of poo. I’ve lived in Texas for decades, and I don’t watch NASCAR or own a gun, nor do I know people like that. Our cities are just like the cities everywhere else. Sure, there are some cultural differences, but there are far more similarities between Houston and New York than between Houston and rural Texas, or rural anywhere else. People who want to see cultural differences will find them, but overall, we’re all shades of purple. It’s just that some areas are a little darker than other areas.

  • I thing there is something else going on here. recently there was data about Red states receiving more in government services than they pay in. There have been numerous observations about Red staters not voting in thier own interests. In light of that, I suggest these numbers reflect not Republikans and Democrats (Conservatives and Liberals) but poor rural areas and rich cities.

    The tip-off for me was the meth data. Meth is a rural palgue. Here in the city we can get all kinds of speed and very few mess with meth. Alcohol abuse, domestic abuse et al are more common in poor areas. The Republikan agenda is for rich suburban people not poor white trash. Boooks and his ilk are pandering to these poor stupid bubbas who have Dale Earnhart tattooed over their hearts. When HOward Dean made his comment about voters with pick-up trucks with the “stars and bars” in teh window, this is what he was saying.

  • Bobby Labonte, Dale Jarrett, Tony Stewart, Kyle Petty, Jeff Gordon. Didn’t even have to google it.

    So what do you like better, Busch Lite or Old Style Lite?

    I might be a little more left of center than Dave, but some New Yorker at theTimes sure as hell can’t out-hick a Nebraskan.

  • Go, go 2Manchu. You call ’em bud!

    Me personnally…I’m a Tony Stewart fan but definitely prefer the Peach Schnapps to beer anytime. And don’t forget Dick Trickle…now, there’s one race car driver with a name to love!

  • The whole concept is complete bunk, and I’m sure I could write a lot about it if I felt like spending the time on it. But I really have no desire to dwell on it. So I’ll point out a few flaws and leave it at that.

    * Red state/blue state narratives don’t actually mean red states and blue states. There are plenty of educated, latte-sippers in the red states and plenty of gun-toting NASCAR-fans in blue states.

    * There is no “parenthesis” phenomenon. Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan and Illinois all voted for John Kerry. Ohio too for Gore in 2000. Austin, Texas voted for Kerry. Alaska, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida are all red states that voted for George W. Bush. All of them did so twice with the sole exception of Florida. So congratulations Mr Wolfe, you’ve just offended not just all the blue-staters who happen to live in states that went to Bush (as well as a bunch of blue-staters in states that went to Kerry), but also a whole bunch of red-staters in states that went to Bush, whom I presume you’re trying to applaud somehow.

    Since Bush’s election, and especially since his reelection, liberals have grown painfully aware of the cultural gap with the white working class.

    I agree with CB, Chait’s point is compelling, in large part because of the way this blue state/red state narrative has been taken up so much by both sides, but I’m also not sure if Chait is being sarcastic or if I should be offended when he joins in with the generalizations that conveniently ignore millions of Americans. Just because I live in a blue state (Oregon) or because I’m a liberal I am not working class? I’m a union man. My father is a union man. My mother worked for a grocer almost all her life. My grandfather is a union man. We ALL voted for John Kerry in 2004. We all hate George W. Bush. Yes, we all live (or lived) in blue states, Oregon, Washington and California, and no, we don’t watch NASCAR or own guns.

    And, to get a very clear idea of just how wrong the whole narrative is, take a look at this election results map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2004_US_elections_purple_counties.png

    Note that the land between the coasts is not bright red, nor is the land along the coasts bright blue. As people like David Brooks would rather forget, there are Republicans and Democrats EVERYWHERE. No single county voted 100% for a single candidate.

    One must be very careful when dealing with generalities not to overgeneralize. Yes, Nebraska is VERY different from California, but then again so is Minnesota.

  • the white working class.

    I think that plently of liberals are white working-and-middle-class, just like plenty of Republicans and plenty of Americans in general are. I think the thing really is that liberal “leaders” in politics are tending to forget it. The Republicans have been trying to cut off Democrats from their white working class base for a while now, and the rich well-connected liberals have started to “buy” it, that all the regular white people they see around are not liberals.

    As for the “parentheses” stuff, I think about three towns in my county in New Jersey put together have more population than the entire state of Wyoming. So there are more people living where?

  • I just can’t imagine Brooks at a NASCAR race.
    How about Laura Ingraham at a small town bar on a Saturday night?
    Ann Coulter at a tractor pull?
    How about Sean Hannity loading hogs?
    Michael Savage judging a burn-out contest?

  • This whole issue is absurd. There is far too much to know in life to be able to be up on everything and to accuse anyone for not knowing things which are quite likely completely irrelevant to their life is just nonsense. Let’s say for example, I DID know how recognize a military person’s rank by the insignia on their uniform – what does that accomplish. And whether I did or not, can I then tell whether this military person is one of the types who would torture another human being even though it is illegal as well as immoral. No I wouldnt – I wouldnt know shit that is of any use for task of making this a stronger and freer society.

    Do I like NASCAR – so what if I do or dont. Can I name 5 drivers, yes. Again, so what? Would I watch that sport – no, and why should I care if someone else wants to watch it. Even if it is one of the most polluting games in town, they could of course fix that by charging a carbon tax on the people who choose to go watch it, or the sponsors of the cars.

    Lets see – I know what a soybean plant looks like, but you know why? It’s because when I was 19 I escaped the police, after they busted a party, by crawling through a field of soybeans planted by a farmer. So, did that make me a better person? No, it made me a stupid young kid who was out having fun and drinking under age. But did I eventually think about soybeans or why I was crawling through them….well duh, if one is going to become an adult, it helps to think about such things, as in, is this the way I want to behave? Did i want to be a drunk who damages other peoples property in an effort to sake my hedonisitc lust? No, I want to be a responsible person.

    Lets see, I also grew up hunting, and therefore I must be a good redstater since Ive owned and shot a gun. But then, once I thought about owning a gun, and actually killing things with it, the question became, do I want to be a killer. And, Do I want to live in a part of the country where people carry guns for protection because they so fear their fellow citizens? (No, and no).

    SO, the point here is not simple association with actiivites, or knowledge of information, but what one does with said knowledge, or why one participates in such activities and whether they actually understand the true implications of their actions. When you put this stuff out there the way Hewitt does, you just come off looking like the useless, thoughtless jackass that you are.

    But whatever, Brooks is just being an ass, and the issue of elitism is so important to him mostly because he is an elitist jerk who Nascar and non nascar fans alike would probably like to punch in the face for his smugness. THe fact is, I dont care what you like, what you do, as long as you are contributing to making this a better country, being a productive citizen, staying on the right side of the law, and minding your own business.

  • I bet if you went into a bar in Dayton Ohio you couldn’t find one person who could name the five boroughs of New York City. Is that any different from someone at Elaine’s who couldn’t name 5 NASCAR drivers?

  • “So what do you like better, Busch Lite or Old Style Lite?”

    Schaeffer. The one beer to have when your havin’ more than one.

    And cheaper than them all.

  • So there are more people living where?

    I always like to point out that, as we all know, the 45 democratic senators represent significantly more American citizens than do the 55 republicrat senators. It drives my wingnut family members crazy when I say that. Don’t know if the same holds in the House but it wouldn’t surprise me.

  • I agree with BioBrain above, I think the true indicator is generally rural v. urban or what’s worse right now, urban v. rural + suburban. I look at the purple state where I grew up (mo) and all you’ve got is three outposts of blue surrounded by red (stl, kc and columbia), or texas where I live now with the big cities (and the valley and el paso region) all solidly democratic with rings of conservatism surrounding (fort bend cty. delay country being the prime example). If anything the small towns in texas I have visited tend to be the most indicative in that they have a majority white population that votes solidly republican with a black minority that votes dem. I lost my train of thought, but needless to say that this country is a lot more than blue state red state (oh and good lord to the red state texans think they are superiour, elitism, I call it asshole-ism)

  • This is freaking crazy. If liberals actually are worrying about this than it explains our utter failure at the ballott box. I happen to be one of those dark beer drinking intellectuals and I get on fine with most everyone in my town (old mill town) where the majority of folks are lower middle class to poor. The secret is to be be honest and not pretentious. I could give a rat’s ass what some mullett headed fool wearing Dale Earnhardt’s # thinks.

  • Dave,
    Two things are on their mind: Beer and sex

    That’s not an elitist view, that’s knowing what half my classmates from high school were like.

  • I’m a bit torn on this issue — while much of the Red Triumphalism is ridiculous, it certainly is true that the Dem establishment is out of touch with both its own grass roots and those of the opposition; and the Dems are suffering from a crisis of masculinity that the GOP is all too happy to exploit — but there’s a much more important issue that hasn’t been discussed.

    Namely, the fact that on 9/11, it was NOT Red State America that was attacked, but Blue State America (and I don’t just mean geographically). The inability of the Dem leadership to recognize and articulate this has been a huge part of what’s led us to the mess we’re in.

  • They can’t name five NASCAR drivers, though stock-car races are the best-attended sporting events in the country.

    Driving in circles is not a sport.

    Two things are on their mind: Beer and sex

    That’s not an elitist view, that’s knowing what half my classmates from high school were like.

    Sounds like a good weekend, to me! 😉

    Seriously, though, I’ve hated the cult of anti-intellectualism that has blossomed in this country. It is the reason we will be followers of scientific advancement in the future, not leaders.

  • This red state/blue state rivalry is rather pathetic.

    I’m a lifelong red state resident who received his college degree from a red state university and has spent his entire worklife in a red state. Not only can I identify soybeans in a field, I’ve grown soybeans. I’m not a hunter, but I can tell you that turkey seasons is starting soon. It’s also time to start looking for morel mushrooms in the woods. I can tell you all about fishing and where and when to go to catch a dozen different species of fish. By some definitions, I should be voting Republican.

    Except: I’ve never owned a gun. I’ve never watched a NASCAR race and don’t think NASCAR is a sport at all. In fact, I can only think of one person I know who’s a NASCAR enthusiast. I’d rather go to a library or bookstore than Hooters. I’ve voted Democratic, with a few lapses, in every election. I’ve abandoned Olympia, Natural Light, Stag and Rheinlander ($5 for a case, came in old, recycled bottles) for better tasting beers as soon as I was able to afford it. For my entire childhood and most of my adult life, I’ve lived in cities that vote heavily Democratic.

    I can tell you David Brooks, blue state coastal elite that he is, would hardly feel comfortable in rural Missouri or Kansas, much less be welcomed there. And Tom Wolfe hasn’t written anything worth a damn in a long, long time. What a crock.

  • I can name about thirty or forty NASCAR drivers. I watch their races when there’s no football on. I flock to good barbecue and milkshakes like water. My grandfather owns a soybean farm and lives in small town Missouri.

    I also went to college in Chicago and now live in DC. I love theatre, independent movies, jam bands, and ethnic restaurants. I drink green tea and read Russian novels.

    I know countless others who fit the theme of both of those descriptions. The one is not exclusive of the other.

    But it is a fascinating snobbery, this red state snobbery, wherein one snobbishly looks down on others for being snobby elites. The Tom Wolfe comment is the one that gets me, because I’ve been thinking about it a lot. Why is it that we debate whether liberals are in touch with average Americans? What makes them any more average than us? In 2004, our guy got more votes. 2008, too, was an incredibly close election; are we really giving “average” over to them because their guy was preferred by a minute percentage, a percentage small enough to have been reversed by a change in the weather patterns?

    I don’t buy it, but it’s absolutely the meme of tradional media.

  • I don’t think thie is red state/blue state as much as trailer park/higher education.

  • 2Manchu (#28),

    The ancient Greeks, in Ephesus (modern Turkey), had an arrangement that you might like. The city was a typical “waterfront” city, visited by the sailors from all over the Mediterranean. It had a rowdy “lower city”, open to sailors and other visitors, and an “upper city” open only to citizens of Ephesus and those who had spent at least two weeks in the lower city (kept the rabble out and was supposed to keep down the spread of communicable diseases).

    At the dividing line between the two levels there was an enormous whorehouse which served the lower city. Across the main street was an enormous library which served the upper city. A few years after I toured the place the archaeologists made an fascinating discovery. Three stories under ground, they discovered a tunnel which connected the two establishments. So a good citizen of Ephesus could kiss his wife goodbye and spend some time “at the library” (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

    “Red state vs. Blue state” is a contrived and irrelevant categorical variable on which only boneheads (e.g., CNN’s Bill Schneider) waste any time, for all the reasons mentioned by others above. There are many, many more nominal and numerical variables that interact in complex ways to determine the outcomes of particular elections. Beyond such variables (demographic, economic, geographic, labor force, etc.) there’s the rare charismatic-magnetic personality – or, Heaven forfend, a genuine straight talker – who defies all analysis. The media are just too dumb to go into these topics, so they “make do” with Red and Blue — all the intellectual sophistication of the Bloods and the Crips.

  • My only omplaint about Nascar is they use oval tracks. I prefer F1 for their open wheel cars and interesting track designs. Also motorcycle and European bicycle racing.

    Guns in a city are just waiting to be stolen or misused, and anyway the gun range is too far away. It’s not like I’m going to forget how to shoot.

    I know plenty of people who have kids in the military. BTW, the Puget Sound (which Seattle is on) is just one large military base. And we still let the Blue Angels fly low right past the high rises downtown during SEAFAIR.

  • Red state pundits are faux elitists. Brooks is from New York, Hewitt, LA, and they would rather blow their brains out than settle down in Oklahoma, target shoot and watch car races.

    Thomas Frank has it right: it’s rancid populism, not the real thing.

    I checked with my liberal Democratic cousin in the Kansas natonal guard and his libDem brother-in-law, an Iowa gun-owning farme, and they agree.

  • Hmmm….. all this got me to thinking about a friend who is a NASCAR nut. Thanks to our one and done Republican governor who cut Medicaid benefits for his granchild he is solidly in the Democratic column.

    I wanted to add more but I feel the need to engage in the non-partisan activity of a nap, maybe I’ll dream that Brooks goes bird hunting with Cheney.

  • NASCAR dads, soccer moms … these are all the groups that the pundits figure are mad as hell and likely to say so at the voting booth. So guys like Brooks and other Repub elitists try to co-opt these disgruntled masses and claim them as there own but they sure as hell wouldn’t want these simpletons living in there neighborhood.

    The idea of being a red stater is trying to corner the market on whatever goes for being mainstream American and marginalizing the rest of our culture. The real measure of being a red stater? Knowing where a meth lab was busted in your community and knowing people who had to join the armed forces because there just aren’t other good paying job opportunities around.

  • actually, i don’t see it as a city v. rural, blue v. red, coast v. inlands thing. i see it as a catholic/jewish/natural scientist v. evangelical thing.

    perhaps it’s because i’ve been reading about 16th century england and how, when the protestants took power, they immediately did everything the taliban is decried for doing now, such as destroying art and viciously persecuting those who don’t believe what they do, and because i suspect that the evangelicals of today would do the same if they got any real control of the government; but it strikes me that the evangelicals are just jealous or angry that they’ve contributed exactly nothing to their culture as a a result of their religion, whereas the catholics have given us the greatest art ever made, the jews have turned two millennium of suffering into the best pop culture can offer and the most inspiration example of endurance as a matter of faith history has known, and the natural scientists, which can include anyone except evangelicals by definition, have given us every scientific advance since the 17th century. Their relentless questioning of the world has elevated from a world of darkness. After an Evangelical dies, he leaves nothing to this Earth that endures or inspires except perhaps an example soon forgotten, perhaps because he figures the rapture is nigh so there’s no point.

    Even Cal Thomas asked “Where is the great Protestant art?” last year when decrying the removal of religious music from school pagents. Nowhere, that’s where. Art and Evangelism are antithetical concepts. Art is outward looking, it means to question and engage. Evangelicals are so insular in the outlook, so focused on a dead book filled with iron age moral codes and superstition, that contribution to culture and history is beyond them; it doesn’t even exist.

    This is why they try to latch onto knowing someone who’s made a sacrifice. Because that’s all they have to offer. Someone else’s sacrifice like Jesus’. And it’s why they don’t see how ridiculous their cries of victimhood are. Why they don’t see how unamerican they are in their desire to restrict our freedoms, which they hate.

  • Lets get rid of the whole red state/blue state thing. Seperation is a tool that people use to manipulate others. By degrading people for such obviously ridiculous things as owning or not owning a gun, that provide justification for people to look down on others for their interests and cultural make up rather than intelligence, compassion, courage, selflessness, etc. which was how people use to be measured. Lets not let others the red state baiters determine the differences amongst us, lets determine the differences amongst us ourselves by using our own standards. For instance, Jill Carrol is couragous for going to Iraq as a journalist to report on a war despite the dangers (or foolhardy, but lets call her couragous).

  • My son (he’s 8 years old) was looking over my shoulder as I was reading this, and he reminded me that Tom Wolfe is mentioned in the movie, “Madagascar.” It seems that two champanzees in the Central park Zoo want to “fling poo” at Tom Wolfe.

    Being the honest Ohio parent that I am, I confirmed for my son that this was, indeed, the same Tom Wolfe.

    As for the “red-state/blue-state” gizmo? It’s oft-times applied as a divisive tool; a “we-against-they” synopsis to demonstrate why “civilized people” should think a certain way, and not think a certain other way. But for this specific set of comparisons, it can easily backfire.

    Are things worse in “red states?” It does appear so…but this can be applied as a galvanizing force to defend why red-staters vote the way they do. Red-state voters had to put up with higher divorce rates, out-of-wedlock birth rates, drug abuse rates, alcohol abuse rates, crime rates—all in a 2001 survey, which was right after 2000. Did these problems occur overnight? Over a period of months? No—they’ve been there for quite a while. So, people just got fed up with the “same-old-same-old”—and turned out en masse on election day.

    If the red-state problems are going to benefit Democrats, then they’ve got to come up with bold solutions—and keep ramming the message home. Don’t play to the “swift-boaters” themes be defending against them; rather, go on the offensive right from the beginning. Anticipate the attack, and counter it ahead of time. Imagine if Democrats came out on Monday with a plan for Friday, and pre-empted a Republican case of “one-upsmanship” on Thursday by launching the plan on Tuesday or Wednesday morning. Imagine if they countered Stonewall Scottie’s daily antics by launching a series of assaults on on a daily basis—right before the White House press briefings. Imagine if they developed a plan, and included several counters to the inevitable Karl Rove shenanigans in the plan.

    Point is—if the Democratic Party wants to gain the momentum of total offense, then they have to adopt a total-war mentality. Let’s call it “Political Blitzkreig….”

  • David Brooks, in his 2004 book On Paradise Drive, taunted blue-state liberals: “They can’t name five NASCAR drivers, though stock-car races are the best-attended sporting events in the country. They can’t tell a military officer’s rank by looking at his insignia. They may not know what soybeans look like growing in the field.”

    Perhaps not. But here is something many blue-state liberals can do: Name five 20th-century American poets, state the year Constantinople fell to the Turks, explain what the “New Deal” was, and summarize the basic beliefs of the world’s major religions and debate their good and bad points.

    Personally, I find the latter much more useful. It makes for more stimulating after-dinner conversation.

  • Actually, I once saw some “evangelical protestant art” at a show out in West Covina about 20 years ago. Two-dimensional, representational, sentimentalistic. It looked like “art” the way the stuff Hitler commissioned after he threw the modernists out of Germany looked. In other words, thoroughly second-rate, like the early Christian stuff you see pre-Renaissance in Europe when the Catholics were out suppressing knowledge and intellect in favor of State Power based on mass public ignorance.

    Actually, the best example of “evangelical art” is the work of Thomas Kincade (and if you can call that crap “art,” you’ve got a stronger stomach than I do) – he sells that “interior wall decoration” to the Christers so they have the work of a “good Christian man” in their homes on the basis of his being “born again” (despite the abusive public drunkenness in Vegas).

    Actually, I’m a guy born in Texas, raised in Colorado, who knew what beans and wheat looked like on my grand-dad’s farm (that he cleared from 160 acres of sagebrush dragging a log sideways behind a horse), and used to kill doves and jackrabbits and was on the state champion ROTC rifle team (and could still shoot if I had to), till I went to Vietnam and I haven’t touched any of that death crap since. And I am *damn* glad not to live back there since I got back from the war!

    And NASCAR is a bunch of guys going nowhere in 4-wheeled billboards.

  • i cannot believe i forgot kincaid, tc. boy, does that prove my point. did you ever notice that in a kinkade painting, there’s no light source. light just comes from everywhere. it’s amazing the things obey the laws of perspective.

    btw, for the record: stewart, johnson, bush, dale jr, gordon.

  • Name NASCAR Drivers? Is that the measure now?

    I wonder how many of these NASCAR fans could name Napoleon’s brothers.

    I wonder how many could identify which of Napoleon’s brothers fathered the Emperor Napoleon III.

    and I wonder how many could identify the State whose basic law was named for Napoleon.

  • And I can tell an officer’s rank by looking at his insignia (though I might get confused by the two types of lieutenants).

    American Military rank insignia has to be some of the dumbest in the world. Gold and Silver Leaves?

  • Here, if you all memorize this, you can pass David Brooks’ test (which I doubt he can).

    How to identify an American ossifer:

    1 gold gar (“butterbar”) – 2nd Lieutentnat, Ensign
    1 silver bar (“monorail”) – 1st Lieutenent, Lieutenant (junior grade)
    2 silver bars (“railroad tracks”) – Captain, Lieutenant
    gold oak leaf – Major, Lieutenant Commander
    silver oak leaf – Lt. Colonel, Commander
    silver eagle – Colonel, Captain
    1 silver star – Brigadier General, Commodore
    2 silver stars – Major General, Rear Admiral
    3 silver stars – Lt. General, Vice Admiral
    4 silver stars – General, Admiral
    5 silver stars – General of the Army (Marshall, Eisenhower, Bradley, MacArthur), Admiral of the Fleet (King, Nimitz) all dead now
    6 silver stars – General of the Armies (0nly one ever was Black Jack Pershing) also dead now

    I bet Brooks doesn’t know the two top grades since he’s from the generation that can’t tell the difference between Vietnam and the Civil War

  • I think when we sit here and compare red state knowledge with blue state knowledge, that this is exactly what Brooks and his ilk wants: division in the country. Hate, fear, and distrust is what pundits on both side of the aisle want, because it increases their ratings, brings in more advertisers, and fattens their wallets, all at the expense of unity in this country.

    Whether or not I know who beat the Undertaker on WWE Smackdown! last week, or know the difference between a merlot and a chardonnay, isn’t really that important. Instead of trying to find new ways of insulting one another, maybe we should look at what brings us together as Americans, and work from there. I believe they call that being civilized.

    The only question is, can we extend the olive branch to the other side, and say, “let’s look at the problems facing our country not as red-staters or blue-staters, but as AMERICANS. Otherwise, we should just chuck the Constitution and break up the country.”

    Call it naive, call it wishful thinking, but I feel that if we don’t, then what future can we expect for this great nation?

  • A year ago last December, Garance Franke-Ruta wrote at TAPPED about this stuff. I wrote her a long piece about “Red State refugees,” with myself as an example.

    People here have talked about it being a rural-urban divide, but that’s not it. Fortunately, I was removed from Texas after being born there before the “Texas Virus” took, but I went back there 24 years later, and I have a number of friends who live there today. My oldest friend from Kindergarten in Denver somehow manages to live as a gay man in Dallas, but he DOES NOT live a life as full and complete as he could in Los Angeles, despite the fact it’s a helluva lot better than he’d get to do in a swamp like Killeen (and I constantly ask him what in hell a gay man is doing ANYWHERE in a fever-swamp morass like Texas – yes, he could get killed here by some Taliban Okie from Bakersfield, but it’s a whole helluva lot less likely than in Texas). Life in Austin at its worst beats the crap out of life in Houston at its best, and it’s STILL easier to be an artist in Los Angeles than in Austin.

    It’s always amazing to me the number of what I call Red State Refugees one finds in NYC, LA, San Francisco, etc. They even end up gathering together and playing “Texas Mafia” (like the Texas Mafia in Hollywood I know) and they talk about how much they like back home and all, but at the last Hollywood Texas Mafia barbecue I went to I said “so when are y’all moving back?” NOT ONE VOLUNTEER.

    Yeah, I respect the hell out of folks like Davis Bragg, the lawyer who kept us “GI commies” out of jail in Killeen back in 1968 at The Oleo Strut, whose house was waaaaaay back from the country road (Me: “Your house is sure a long way back from the road, Mr. Bragg.” Davis Bragg: “Yes, it’s out of range.”) and how have kept their committments and done what they have done, but I like not having to live “out of range.”

    I went back to my mumblemumble high school reunion a few years ago. All of the folks who were my friends back then had moved a minimum 500 miles away from that cesspool in Denver, and had jobs that just by the Job Name were “interesting,” and they were interesting as people. All those who had remained behind were like apples that had fallen from the tree and were lying on the ground waiting to become wizened little “apple head dolls”.

    Not one of them was doing a job anywhere close to what they had wanted to do back when we were all kids. They’d grown up and become the people they never wanted to be, without knowing it. One of them, drunk enough to be able to tell the truth, came up to me and said “You know, I used to hate you in high school because you did whatever the hell you wanted to do regardless of what anybody said, and now I hate you worse because you’ve gotten to do that all your life.” To which I thought to myself , “you think it’s been easy???”

    But THAT is the real difference between “red state” and “blue state”- the opportunity of freedom – not the demographics of voting or anything else. If I’d lived in Bakersfield and escaped to LA, the attitude would have been the same.

  • See what I told you (Tom’s listing of Officer ranks)

    Stupidist – insignia – in – the – world.

    Despite everything else wrong with them, the Confederate States of America at least had sense to change this. For them it was:

    1 bar 2nd Lieutenant
    2 bars 1st Lieutenant
    3 bars Captain
    1 star Major
    2 stars Lt. Colonel
    3 stars [Full] Colonel
    1 Star within a wreath Brigader General
    2 Stars within a wreath Major General
    3 Stars within a wreath Lieutenant General

    The CSA never made anyone a Full General (I believe). George Washington was only a Lieutenant General himself.

    Next time you run into an obnoxious red stater, try bouncing that off him.

    In ‘the Undefeated’ Rock Hudson played a Confederate Colonel. When my dad (Army Air Corps/Air Force LtCol, rtd) saw the three stars on Hudson’s uniform he thought that the character was supposed to be a General. I think one of my elder brothers corrected him. Interesting where knowledge springs from sometimes.

    Oh, and by the way, I think at the moment there are two ranks of rear admiral and commodore is not used.

    And naval insignia below Admiral is:
    One full stripe: Ensign
    One full stripe and one narrow stripe: Lt Junior Grade
    Two full stripes: Lieutenant
    Two full stripes with a narrow stripe between: Lt. Commander
    Three full stripes: [Full] Commander
    Four full stripes: Captain

  • The only question is, can we extend the olive branch to the other side, and say, “let’s look at the problems facing our country not as red-staters or blue-staters, but as AMERICANS. Otherwise, we should just chuck the Constitution and break up the country.”

    Problem is, 2Manchu, that’s exactly what some of these swine want—to chuck the Constitution. The one on Pennsylvania Avenue wants it really, really bad. So do the ones on the televangelist circuit.

  • 100% pure horse hockey. Just like a team of pickpockets use a distraction or decoy team, so do the Republicans. Red state/blue state/NASCAR is more nonsense created by conservatives to keep middle class Americans from realizing they’ve been getting screwed for the last five years.

    Every stinking piece of Republican legislation ever passed makes the load heavier for middle class Americans, and lighter for the rich. It’s been that way since 1860.

    Safire, Brooks, Tierney, & Co. can go bleep in their hats. Thanks to the likes of them, there’s no longer any ground for rational discourse.

    For a great description of Republicans, read the article: Republicans– the Great Pretenders. http://www.progressivedailybeacon.com/commentary.php?id=1070

    And to make things even worse, there isn’t a whole lot of difference on the other side of the aisle.

  • As an Army veteran, I have to say that Navy rank confuses the bejeezus outta me.

    As for Army – if they’ve got one bar, they’re dangerous.

    If they’ve got two, they lived this long, so pay attention.

    If they’ve got a leafy thing, they’re either a staff puke or in your command chain. They’ll either make your life miserable, or tell you to do something. Avoid them.

    If there’s a little birdy, it’s probably the boss.

    If there’s stars, well, look darn busy, because there’ll be a whole bunch of the others around who all want to show how valuable they are…

    If it’s carrying a clipboard, it’s either goldbricking or dangerous. Avoid either.

    If it’s carrying a clipboard and a camera, it’s me.

    I think one of the things that irritates us residents of the “fly over” states is the snobbishness we see from the coasties. Seems that Boston/Washington and Dago/Frisco are the only areas where art flourishes, where thinking people live, etc., etc. – The “flyover” country is just where they go to vacation…

    Most of those cities, when I chose to visit, were essentially hives of humanity. Lots of bad karma going on, lots of racism, etc. – Maybe the inhabitants think that the rest of the world has to be _worse_ than where they choose to live… And they’ll never know.

    And lemme tell you, it is just SO much fun watching some condescending wage slave from Gotham trying to explain to Bubba about how he’s stupid and all, while they’re sitting on the front of Bubba’s shop, which backs up to 200 acres, which are worth a lot more, and produce a lot more, than the wage slave’s studio apartment… A lab I used to work in had groups of farmers who’d tour. One of the support staff made a comment once about “those dumb farmers.” He immediately got explained to that he didn’t have control of a few million dollars worth of physical plant, and that thus far he hadn’t produced squat… Lots of millionaires wear carharts…

    If the “red staters” quit shipping food into the cities, they’d self-destruct within a week into something that would make New Orleans look like nothing but an out of hand frat party.

  • From red state to blue state is a continuum of where one lives on a historical timeline.

    Red state of mind
    Homogeneous nostaligic simple rural mainstreet, country music loving, god fearing, know all about your neighbor and your neighbor know all about you, more comfortable with and dependent on local authority, with roots in the good old days before the 60’s. Pride in tradition and fear of change.

    Blue state of mind
    Complex multi-ethnic multi-racial, impersonal big city life, but clustered socially by interest and work, more street smart and less reliant on others, greater personal freedom ,greater opportunity but greater isolation and less sense of community. High level of change and less attachment to the past.

    Fear of the modern world realities .. (global conflict with foreign religions, global economy with foreign aliens, global warming and global pollution)..scares the hell out of red staters who just want to get back to the sleepy traditional Mayberry RFD way of life.

    The Red state is a pre 60’s state of mind while Blue state is post 60’s.

  • Someone in an above post commented that they didn’t want to live in area where they were so scared that they felt the need to carry a gun. Okay – here it is: “Do I want to live in a part of the country where people carry guns for protection because they so fear their fellow citizens?”

    Guys, there are around 40 states where concealed carry is the law. There’s not blood running in the gutters. Quite the reverse. About the only folks who are negatively affected are the predatory fringes of society. Y’all can avoid “the country,” and I’ll be happy to avoid Washington (where guns are basically completely banned, and you can’t go for a stroll at night). IMHO, in areas where one doesn’t have to worry about protection from crimnals, you have a more open society – not the closed and insular hive worlds of the cities.

    If you’re not scared – how many locks are on your doors? Do you leave your apartment without your cell phone? Do you have 911 on speed dial, so that a reassuring man with a gun (and a high school education…) will show up and make things all better? I carry a fire extinguisher for protection in each of my vehicles. If I see your car on fire, I’d probably stop and help you. Does this make me an arsonist? Your logic is going from point A to point K without a single decision box other than “can this thing throw projectiles fast enough to kill?.” Your logic tree needs more branches.

    What about places where people carry mace because they fear their fellow citizens? Campuses where the womens’ groups have self-defense and date rape awareness classes, because they fear their fellow citizens?

    Guys, they’re tools. And they’re highly effective in ensuring that us crippled up folks don’t get our butts routinely kicked by 18 year old thugs in search of cheap thrills.

  • Bogieville – you’re still a fucking moron. Let me go through your patheticness line by line.

    40 states with concealed carry laws : actually, there are 47, dickhead, but my point isnt the fact that a state permits it…it is whether the people in that state actually decide they will carry a gun. It’s the people who think they need to be carrying a gun around that Id rather not live around – whether they are criminals, or vigilantes (like you seem to desperately want to be).

    No blood running in the gutters – did I say there was blood running in the gutters? No. I didnt. And the reverse of bloodd running in the gutters is what? Blood running out of the gutters?

    Only folks affected are the predatory fringes – where is your evidence? What scares me the most is a drunk with a concealed weapon and a bad temper and there seems to be no shortage of drunks in this country, no shortage of bad tempers on the right, which are displayed here regularly – thus, I will avoid people who combine both with a concealed weapon. I would say that there are likely many people who have been affected by this type of person…however, youll find a nifty little self defense argument Im sure which will make it seem like the person shot had it coming to em.

    “I’ll avoid washington ‘- Id say quite clearly you have already avoided it since you have no idea about when and where you can walk. Ive spent plenty of time in the worst parts of texas, but only in the daylight. Having some high school educated Texan potentially around packing a gun didnt make me feel any safer going into the worst parts of that state. And carrying my own, which I am fully licensed to do, but choose not to do, wouldnt make me feel any better about being in that type of neighborhood. If you are so ignorant as to think of Washington DC as a homogeneous place, then you are just a dolt.

    “…where one doesnt have to worry about criminals, you have a more open society” – wow…you need to get out more. Perhaps you could go and take a look at the cities in this country one day….you’d see that they are the most diverse places around (or just look at the numbers from census : or do you not know of such things?) and the diversity makes people more open to each other and more tolerant. Heck, Id bring you to a city and youd probably pull your gun on the first person that you were unaccustomed to. Your statement about “closed and insular hive worlds” just goes to show how absolutely ignorant you are.

    As for your statement about “how many locks on your doors” , once again, you prove that you have no capacity for nuanced thought. Putting locks on doors is passive…toting a gun does not present the same type of protection. It is a threat…the equivalent door protection would be an IED triggered to the lock. Why I leave with my cell phone is because it is convenient and allows me to make calls. To assume that the only reason is to call 911 is again silly, as are your “arguments” generally. And if for some reason i chose to call 911, why does that imply that Id want a moron with a gun to show up (like you, for example) You are the very reason I dont want people to be toting guns, because an idiot with a gun is a very dangerous thing, and even more dangerous when the person is ignorant of what constitutes reality.

    How you get your attempted analogy of carrying a fire extinguisher and using it to put out a fire making you an arsonists is another fine example of your lack of reasoning power. To top it off, you use your A to K example, which pretty much perfectly describes your logic pathway, in an attempt to discredit mine.

    Why dont you go try and get an education, ok? Your ignorance is beyond tiring.

    Youre really a fucking douchebag for even writing this stupid shit in your own pathetic defense. The best solution to you would for you to defend yourself from yourself by putting that gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger.

  • “Guys, they’re tools. And they’re highly effective in ensuring that us crippled up folks don’t get our butts routinely kicked by 18 year old thugs in search of cheap thrills.”

    I have to agree with Bogieville on this basic point. And I can’t agree with the opposing idea that red-staters who carry guns (or anyone who carries a gun) do so out of fear of their fellow citizen – as if red-state gun owners live in some paranoid fantasy where all their neighbors are out to get them. That just isn’t the case. When I was in school at UW in Seattle (a very blue city in a fairly blue state,) a girlfriend of mine took to carrying mace – not out of some paranoid fear that all men were sexual predators, but just a practical acknowlegement of what we all knew: there WERE some sexual predators out there, and that it’s smarter to be prepared than be a victim. Note that this is not the same as “fearing your fellow citizen”; I think that’s a very inaccurate way of putting it.

    I’m not going to pretend I have a solid idea why gun-owners exercise their right so vigorously. I personally abhor guns, guns make it way too easy to end lives, and I think their proliferation contributes to much of the violence in our society. But I live in a city that has a lot of gun violence. Red America (not red states, mind you) doesn’t really have this violence problem, so maybe their logic reflects that they don’t have to observe regular murders or gun-related crimes. That’s my best guess for their reasoning. Different cultures, different circumstances, different strokes for different folks, not some rabid fear of the “gubmint.”

    More to address the (hopefully) brief spate of incivility we just encountered- how about letting up and giving people second chances? I can completely understand righteously laying smack down on some troll or griefer, but if the smack was laid down on a troll already, and said troll has been nothing but polite and well-meaning in the current comments section, let bygones be bygones. And if, say, someone has been an ass in the next post’s comment section, deal with it there, don’t bring the drama in here, thanks. This conversation is not others, and Bogieville’s been nothing but nice here. Everyone who behaves should be welcome here, regardless of creed.

  • Rian, I agree with you and Bogieville that they are tools, but you both fail to realize that tools is a broad category – do you happen to know anyone who was killed by mace? That you both cant see that there are reasonable “tools” that make us safer, such as door locks and possibly mace, and that a gun differs quite significantly from a reasonable tools, is pretty shocking. You make a totally weak transition from claiming that guntoters dont fear other people to your gf carries mace. This is a total disconnect. Im not saying noone should protect themselves, but it worries me a bit when Im in a place that lots of people feel the need to carry guns. Ive lived in many situation where people get into confrontations for one reason or another. Having a loaded weapon in these instances usually leads to one thing – a dead person. While I will not discount completely that for some, the unknown as to who is packing might act as a deterrent, my guess is on net that deterrent effect is heavily outweighed by the many deaths. And Rian, your GFs carrying mace IS EXACTLY fearing your fellow citizen. If it isnt, what is it? Its a simple safety tool, and its there because of the fear of the unknown..sometimes a dog, sometimes a mugger, sometimes a sexual predator. But often, a human, and whether they have criminal intentions or not, last I checked, they are still citizens. (I use that broadly of course, because they could of course be illegals, etc, but my point wasnt to use the word to denote legal status…it was to denote human status).

  • Thing is, you need to open up your mind a little… You’re seeing ones and zeroes here. You seem to think of a firearm as a solely offensive weapon. Not the case. Sometimes a firearm provides protection. USUALLY a firearm provides protection – possibly via deterrent, possibly via being the only person to walk away from a robbery.

    When a carjacker comes up to you, wants your hybrid, toss him the keys, right? Oops… Your girlfriend’s in it – he wants her too. TIme to re-examine your isolationism. Oh, and your kid’s in the back seat. You’re in a world of hurt. He wants you in the car too. He’s not too coherent, but he’s giggling someting about a party.

    Now, what would you rather have in your pocket? A blackberrry so you can take copious notes, or a good reliable weapon you’ve been trained with.

    I _do_ fear _some_ of my fellow citizens, and I fear a whole buncha folks who are no longer citizens, due to their being convicted of felonies, and eventually released back into society (it’s illegal for these folks to own guns, but that doesn’t seem to stop them.). Saw a lot more of that type in the cities than I have in the country.

  • Ah, and last night I was just too burned out, by a day of building a new subwoofer (two 15″ drivers, ported to 21hz), and then enjoying two darn nice evening movies.

    I don’t think “patheticness” is a word. If it is, it really shouldn’t be. Yech. Some things are just _wrong_.

    As for the 40 states… I’m primarily concerned with the “shall issue” states, where cronyism and political ties are negated. For instance, California is a “may issue” state. Which means it’s easy to get a permit _if_ you have the connections. If you don’t contribute big bucks to the right politicians, forget it. Of course you may be more comfortable with a situation where only the privileged “right” sort of people with the right connections are issued permits. I think that is a very sad and racist attitude, and you really need to work on your concepts of diversity (heh… see a bit below, regarding “knuckle-dragging racist bubbas”).

    Before every state which passed legislation liberalizing firearms laws (most of which date back to Jim Crow days…), the media uniformly cried out about the danger which their readership/viewership/listenership posed to themselves. And they’ve _universely_ been proven wrong. You hear the phrase “Dodge City” a lot. It doesn’t happen.

    The predatory fringes learn that they should go elsewhere for their money or their thrills. A few years back when Missouri passed its law, the chief of police of East St. Louis, Illinois was quoted as saying that he thought that crime would increase in his city as a result of the law, because criminals would be more likely to commit crimes in Illinois (very restrictive firearms laws) than in Missouri (where they may attack someone with the ability to protect themselves).

    As for drunks with permits – are you assuming that every permit holder is a drunk? Or that every drunk gets a permit? You’re making one of those incomprehensible leaps of logic again. In Missouri (and many other states) it is illegal to be in possession of a firearm while intoxicated. And since (at least in Missouri) the level of intoxication is not defined, that means having one beer with dinner means no gun. Of course, only people who have the permits will pay attention to little things like that. Criminals will completely ignore it. Admit it – you haven’t done your research, and know next to nothing about what you’re typing about; you are operating from emotion, not logic. You may also be thinking that if _you_ were drinking, and _you_ had a gun, that _you’d_ carry it, and then _you’d_ use it to shoot someone. I’m glad I’m not you.

    In actuality, the best way to avoid being a victim of crime is to avoid associating with criminals. Don’t hang around with meth heads, crack heads, purveyors of unlicensed and unregulated pharmaceuticals, etc. And to a point, don’t go where criminals go – no trips to the stop’n’rob at midnight for cigarettes… don’t gas up at night… don’t go to the mall on heavy Christmas (is it still okay to say that? okay… Winter Solstice…) shopping days… Well, let’s be serious. You’re gonna go outside your house sometimes. What are you willing to do to make your life safer?

    Washington DC has probably the most restrictive firearms laws in the nation. Should be a uniformly safe place then, right? I guess that’s why the doorman in the hotel where I stayed at completely freaked out when I told him I was going to walk the three blocks down the street to a restaurant… Insisted that I take the hotel van or a taxi – and it wasn’t because he was trying to be nice. He was genuinely concerned for my safety.

    You seem to think that high-school educated Texans (you know, _some_ of them do go on to college…) are somehow dangerous? What about a high-school educated Bostonian? New Yorker? Do all of your police have college diplomas? You trust them, right?

    Dude, you are SO into stereotyping… It’s like when you read something you can’t really respond to, you whip out the “You’re obviously a knuckle-dragging bubba racist” defense… I used to live in essentially the center of the metro area of St. Louis, a little burg of about 2,000,000ish people. The thing that struck me weirdest when I moved to Wentzville last year was that people in the local grocery store were all speaking English. I know you guys on the coasts think you’ve got a lock on social, cultural and ethnic (and I _really_ dislike your concept of looking at people as “things” rather than as people) diversity. I’m afraid you are sorely mistaken. I suspect you are transferring your feelings and beliefs to another (ever take any psych classes?) – I suspect that if, while you were on vacation “in the country,” if you were armed, you’d feel the need to shoot someone. It’s probably a good thing that you unconsciously realize this about yourself, and make the good decision to not be armed, but please do not transfer your problems to other people.

    You say that an agoraphobic/xenophobic deadbolt collection is passive – that’s something you will have to see and use every day (unless they’re just for show, at which point they’re more or less useless, right?), and imply that anything which requires activity is bad. Actively wiring a booby-trap (hey, I like the old terminology) is illegal. Please do not even consider doing that, because it could seriously injure a high-school educated police officer or fireman.

    Again, a permit holder with a firearm is no different than the same permit holder who has a fire extinguisher in each of his vehicles, who subconsciously keeps an eye on the gauges (hey, we just had safety training in the lab last week) to make sure they’re operational. You may be incorrectly assuming that a permit holder will actively brandish and actively use a firearm in a more or less constant fashion. Consider this – if you are in the same restaurant with me, you’ll never know I’m armed. I know it’s a stretch, but the only way you’ll find out is if something really, really bad happens, and it becomes apparent that waiting 5-20 minutes for the constabulary to appear will be seriously detrimental to someone’s continued health and well-being. And I’d really prefer to just eat my medium rare steak in peace.

    Oh yeah – I like fire extinguishers. Don’t really see a negative side to them, except that they are very hard to integate into just about any decorating scheme other than post-modern industrial. I also like smoke and carbon-monoxide detectors. I’ve got a little dealie in my basement that’ll buzz if I get a broken pipe. And I check the oil dipstick on my car every few fill-ups. I check the air in my tires for proper pressure occasionally. I usually don’t go swimming immediately after a big meal, and I avoid running with scissors. I guess this all makes me some kind of oddball.

    I have an education. I’m also adding to it. I suggest that you attempt an open mind.

    And as for the final paragraph… Dude, I’m saying this because I think that someone needs to. Please, you need to see someone, and get some help. A counselor, a teacher who’ll listen, someone. Not just someone on the internet where you can vent anger, but someone who can help you with your transferring and attribution of your feelings and beliefs to others.

  • Again, let me walk you through your stupidity…

    “Of course you may be more comfortable with a situation where only the privileged “right” sort of people with the right connections are issued permits. I think that is a very sad and racist attitude, and you really need to work on your concepts of diversity (heh… see a bit below, regarding “knuckle-dragging racist bubbas”).”
    —- here’s a prime example of what an ass you are – you make up a ridiculous example and attribute it to me, then attack me for it, when Im not even associated it. THAT is exactly the tactic used by the morons in the republican party these days. Its deplorable, and you are an ass. Period.

    Another example – ” As for drunks with permits – are you assuming that every permit holder is a drunk? Or that every drunk gets a permit? You’re making one of those incomprehensible leaps of logic again ” — the only one who made this idiotic leap of logic is YOU! I said that there are always drunks, and always arguments, and Id rather not be around where the drunk and argumentative also happen to have guns. This says nothing about every drunk having a gun, or every permit holder is a drunk. As for “You may also be thinking that if _you_ were drinking, and _you_ had a gun, that _you’d_ carry it, and then _you’d_ use it to shoot someone. I’m glad I’m not you.” Where do you get this garbage? Obviously the mind that is making up this crap is yours, and that is the one that is twisted. You truly are a pathetic little boy.

    Heres another gem – ” I suspect that if, while you were on vacation “in the country,” if you were armed, you’d feel the need to shoot someone.” How exactly do you reach the conclusion that Id feel compelled to shoot someone if I had a gun? HUH? Am I saying that all gun owners shoot things because they feel the need? No. Am I saying that anyone who doesnt think we all need to be carrying a gun would shoot someone out of compulsion if they had one. No. You sir, are a fucking moron. A completely disingenuous debater, and a worthless piece of crap.

    The rest of your attack is more of the same…assume I made an argument I didnt make, then attack it. More strawman tactics from a weak little mind who cant deal with facts. Which is why of course you accuse me of not doing my homework – because you clearly dont do yours. THen you speak of projection, and attack me as a person who understands no psychology, while you project your feelings on to me. Wow…you are stunning hypocrite too.

    On and on it goes in your little diatribe. You obviously have no reading comprehension skills, no logic skills, and continue to argue by trying to put your stupid arguments into my mouth. Therefore, I’ll leave you to your childish game and make no more attempts to debate such an obvious idiot.

  • Seriously. Please seek help. You’ve got a lot of issues with paranoia, hate and anger, and if you don’t do something about them, you’re going to have more problems. Maybe you need to get out of the city a little – calm down some.

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