Donald Rumsfeld meets Ray McGovern

May 5, 2006

If you haven’t seen it, Defense Secretary [tag]Donald Rumsfeld[/tag] spoke in Atlanta yesterday and had a few substantive exchanges with an interested and well-informed member of the audience. Well, at least the questions were substantive.

Speaking in Atlanta today, Secretary of Defense Donald [tag]Rumsfeld[/tag] was sharply questioned about his pre-war claims about WMD in Iraq. An audience member confronted Rumsfeld with his 2003 claim about WMD, “We know where they are.” Rumsfeld falsely claimed he never said it. The audience member then read Rumsfeld’s quote back to him, leaving the defense secretary speechless.

The audience member specifically reminded Rumsfeld that he had said, on national television, “We know where [the WMD] are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.” Rumsfeld claimed that he never made the comment, but there is, of course, video of him using these exact words.

Here was another interesting exchange:

Q: Well we’re talking about lies and your allegation there was bulletproof evidence of ties between al Qaeda and Iraq.

Rumsfeld: Zarqawi was in Baghdad during the prewar period. That is a fact.

Q: Zarqawi? He was in the north of Iraq in a place where Saddam Hussein had no rule. That’s also…

Rumsfeld: He was also in Baghdad.

Q: Yes, when he needed to go to the hospital. Come on, these people aren’t idiots. They know the story.

And who was this well-informed interrogator? Former CIA analyst [tag]Ray McGovern[/tag].

CNN anchor Paula Zahn spoke hours later with the former analyst, Ray [tag]McGovern[/tag], a member of a group called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity that has been critical of the Bush administration’s handling of the Iraq war.

ZAHN: Did you go to this speech today with the intent of challenging Secretary Rumsfeld?

MCGOVERN: I had no predetermined objectives. I just wanted to see what he had to say. But I did get very motivated when the first lady was ejected … from the crowd.

ZAHN: What was it, then, that you wanted to accomplish by following her rather pointed question?

MCGOVERN: Well, you know, she talked about lies. And I get very upset when Donald Rumsfeld shakes his head and says, “Lies, gosh, lies. I hate it when somebody says that our president would tell lies.” Of course, she hadn’t said the president; she said Rumsfeld. But he said that lies are fundamentally destructive of the trust, without which government cannot work. And that’s true. And I found myself really agreeing with that.

ZAHN: Essentially, what he told you is: I never said exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were. I was referring to, we had a pretty darn good idea where the sites were. … Do you buy what he said today?

MCGOVERN: His words [in 2003] were: “We know where — where the WMD are. They’re near Tikrit and Baghdad, and north, south, east, and west of there.” That’s a direct quote. And when he used that wonderful non sequitur by looking at the uniformed personnel in the front row and saying: “Well, they went in with protective gear; they certainly thought there were weapons of mass destruction there.” Well, my goodness, of course, they did. Because you, Donald Rumsfeld, told them that they were there. And, you know, it’s not polite to say this, but that was a bald-faced lie. And … he should have owned up to it, if he wants there to be a modicum of trust.

Good for McGovern. Rumsfeld isn’t confronted nearly enough by these kinds of reality-based arguments, and apparently, gets a little flustered by the opposition.

Ha HA!

It is about time patriots started standing up and pointing at the naked king (and his court). I doubt this will get as much coverage a s the Kennedy car crash but at least it ts out there.

I heard the exchange on the Ed Schultz Show yesterday and you can hear it here. The sad part is the reaction of many in the crowd who seemed unwilling to acknowledge Rummy was flat out busted. There were a few people who responded with applause when McGovern suggested that having him removed from the audience was unAmerican. Unfortunately this was the exception.

Every marathon starts with a few steps. I hope this is it one of them.

  • Being held accountable for your words and actions is so pre-9/11. This is a new era and a new world order. Get with the program people.

  • Like all liars, his facts are full of holes. This is off subject a little,but not much.
    “We know where — where the WMD are. They’re near Tikrit and Baghdad, and north, south, east, and west of there.”
    I watched the live coverage of that statement and wondered what the hell he was talking about. I’m not sure of the exact distances, but Tikrit and Baghdad are about 100 miles apart so if he’s talking about that area and also an area north, south, east, and west of there, he’s talking about a pretty sizable chunk of land. Not very exact for someone who is suppose to know exactly where the WMD were. And very stupid of the newsmedia not to call him on it.
    A big salute to Ray McGovern and the other protestors.

  • I have mixed feelings about that video… I think it is fine for politically engaged people to watch it, but for those who might not be familiar with the issues it could paint a positive image of Rummy. We know the truth, and see the bs for what it is. For the typical viewer with a vague sense of something wrong with the country they are going to see a “protestor” (as CNN introduced the clip) confronting the secretary, the protester is booed loudly and heckled, and Rummy responds with apparent dignity and reasonableness. I think a typical uninformed viewer would come off with a better impression of Rummy than McGovern. Which really sucks because McGovern writes some really good material.

    I guess my point is that confronting the administration in a Bush friendly crowd in front of the MSM is not such a good idea. It feels great and empowering to us who are following events and are seething at what Bush & gang are getting away with, but it looks bad to the average American. Those are the people that matter, sheep or not. Sheep don’t like loud noises… when you want to herd sheep you need to get enough sheep to go where you want them, then the rest will rush to follow. Banging the drums will drive them away, but you have no control over where they will go. Let’s face it, with the MSM supporting Bush our approach has to be very subtle and gentle. While our anger is justified displaying it will alienate people.

  • What bothers me most is the statement about “well-informed member of the audience”. If Americans would just take the time to become well-informed, there would be a revolution in this country that would be beautiful to behold.

  • Administration officials are going to have to be more selective about where they speak and who is invited.
    I can see Rummy limiting his speaking to exclusive “Amway style” parties in the livingrooms of the rich and conservative.

  • Xeroman,

    The Republicans have integrated style over substance as a main weapon in their attack on America. Mission Accomplished, Clear Skies, Healthy Forests are examples. Get Secretaries to stand in front of an appropriate background and announce a program or event that has a good sounding name. Meanwhile the actions associated with the program are incongruous with the title.

    People have granted enough respect and latitude to these liars. I think it is time for people like McGovern, who has some credibility, to stand up and scatter some sheep. Former Secretaries, Retired Generals, and distinguished public servants have all pointed out the numerous elephants in the room. The more the better in my opinion. Better them than Cindy Sheehan (with all due respect to Cindy Sheehan).

  • I thought it was a fine moment in political TV history. Up there with the fellow from Miss who told Dick to go Cheney himself. The way things are going for these guys, they’ll look up on these hecklers as the good ole days.

    It seemed like ole Wolfie Blitzer was acting all offened that someone had the gall to call out Rummy.

    First Stephen Colbert then Ray McGovern? How much more shame can the MSM endure? All those rude impolite people saying those awful things.

    This reminds me of the comments made by the US Press when Bush visited the UK about the UK Press and how impolite and aggressive they were towards the Prez. It’s too bad the MSM is not the fierce watchdog everyone thought it was. Guess they’re a overbred half blind minature poodle in pitbull clothing.

  • Just an impression. Nothing scientific about it.
    I read about this yesterday in several places.
    I came away thinking that the MSM is bending
    over backwards to protect Rumsfeld.

    It is astonishing that Bush’s approval ratings
    have sunk so low, given how hard the MSM
    works to prop up this rotten presidency.

  • The one thing that always chaps my hide is when Rumsfeld or any of the other Kool-aiders use the excuse that Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people and Iran. That happened back in the 1980s, when the Reagan and first Bush administration thought they had Saddam on the payroll.
    Whether this is relevant to the discussion or not, it still pisses me the hell off.

  • MNProgressive,
    I agree with what you say – the Republicans have no substance and rely on spin to forward their agenda. However I’m not talking about granting them respect for the sake of polite discourse. I have little use for polite discourse with the right anymore. It is the center, the moderates who we need to address. Getting confrontational in front of a crowd hostile to our views can shape the typical viewer’s impression in a negative way. It looks like we are the kooks, the rude, and the belligerent. McGovern has credibility with people like us. I highly doubt your typical CNN viewer knows who he is, or has read any of his articles. There is a very good chance that they would choose not too after watching that clip, or if they did read it they would do so with the notion that he is rude, belligerent, and most damaging – marginalized. Being booed/heckled in front of a crowd has a powerful impact on how someone is viewed, especially if it is a first impression. Hell, look at how they desperately spun the crowd’s reaction to Cheney at the baseball game. They know that widespread audience disapproval has a massive impact on those watching from home in front of the boob-tube. The sad fact of it is that when wooing the American public Image Is Everything. In this twisted world truth is relative for a large segment of the population. I think Colbert nails it with “Truthiness”. Really, it seems that a lot of people feel what is true – in other words what is most effectively advertised to them. Facts are convenient only if they agree with what feels right.

  • I’ m with Jim B at #3. The original Rumsfeld claim that he knew where the WMD were sounded bogus in realtime.

  • That Rumsfeld is still the Secretary of Defense shocks me. He should have been ousted with the prison torture story, or the body armor shortage, or the lack of effective troop numbers, or you name it. He is an incompetent fool and his lies and delusions have cost the lives of thousands of people. It is a problem getting rid of Bush or Cheney, but Rumsfeld? Why in God’s name is he still making any decisions beyond what he wants for breakfast at the old age home?

  • Xeroman:

    The moderates already don’t like the righties, so kicking a little rightie ass in public mostly makes our side look better.

    As far as the Bush sheeple are concerned, the sooner they become mutton, the better. Fuck’m.

    I was at a show recently where one of the Sheeple was proudly displaying her Sheepleness on her T-shirt, and I asked her if anyone had recently told her how fat, ugly and stupid she was. She was so shocked she nearly had a heart attack right there. And six people I would not have expected to respond as they did then complimented me for being so unpolite as to say what they had been thinking. And these were not folks who I would have thought of as being “on our side.”

    Don’t worry what the scum from the MSM say or do. AOL had a poll on Wednesday about Colbert’s performance on Saturday. This is important because AOL is commonly considered to “skew conservative” in these polls – which is pretty surprising given the recent results – but that’s what “they” say. 67% thought Colbert was funny, and 69% thought his act was entirely appropriate. Of five jokes put up for votes as “hits” or “misses,” all five scored as hits, with approval ratings ranging from 78-87% (the top-scorer being the one about “that government is best that governs least and by that standard Iraq is a resounding success.”

    The right is not only out of touch with the public, we are underestimating the level of their pissed-offness. Standing up and speaking the truth to these morons is getting us “brownie points” with a public that now wishes they could stand up and cuss out that worthless piece of scum Rumsfeld for what he’s done to their friends, neighbors, relatives and sons and daughters.

    Your problem is you are almost as beaten-into-submission as the MSM is. Don’t take that as a put-down – I know you have the guts to stand up, so please do so.

  • My problem with the MSM is that they are so damned lazy and incapable. I don’t think they intend to play to the administration. I think it’s just easier. The Republicans spoon-feed them nice little packages of propaganda they can use without working up a sweat.

    In many cases we wouldn’t know about administration misdeeds had we not learned of them from the MSM. The problem is that these and contrary points of view are just too hard for the media to handle. It’s too much work to develop the story.

    How often have we heard some variation of this: “_______ published a memo from the White House that shows Secretary Rumsfeld personally refused military requests for more troops. The White house issued a strong denial.” End of story.

    I vividly remember the issue of Time Magazine published immediately after Colin Powell made his WMD case to the UN. Point by point, Time listed evidence and expert opinions that countered Powell’s presentation. And that was the end of it.

    So info is there, there in the MSM. But there is never any follow-up.

  • Wow!!!! Hookergate has claimed its first victim!!!!

    Porter Goss – about whom many rumors have flown since it was revealed that the two guys who bribed Cunningham had provided hospitality suites and hookers for Congressman – to the point where Goss had to issue a ringing statement this past weekend that he never involved himself with such things, has resigned as head of the CIA!!

    It’s a good news day for sure.

  • Tom – I hope you are right. I’m not defeated though – I just think we should be careful giving the hostile MSM more meat. They are certainly hostile to the left, and they are influential whether we like it or not.

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