NSA phone-records database ‘broadly acceptable’ to the public

Earlier this year, most polls showed [tag]Americans[/tag] largely split on the issue of the [tag]Bush[/tag] administration conducting [tag]warrantless[/tag] [tag]search[/tag]es. I had suspected that the public would be far more concerned about yesterday’s revelations because, unlike warrantless wiretaps, this NSA program deal with everyone’s phone calls.

Apparently, I was wrong.

Americans by nearly a 2-1 ratio call the surveillance of telephone records an acceptable way for the federal government to investigate possible terrorist threats, expressing broad unconcern even if their own calling patterns are scrutinized.

Lending support to the administration’s defense of its anti-terrorism intelligence efforts, 63 percent in this ABC News/Washington Post poll say the secret program, disclosed Thursday by USA Today, is justified, while far fewer, 35 percent, call it unjustified.

Indeed, 51 percent approve of the way President Bush is handling the protection of privacy rights, while 47 percent disapprove — hardly a robust rating, but one that’s far better than his overall job approval, in the low 30s in recent polls.

When poll respondents were asked specifically if it would bother them if there was a [tag]record[/tag] of their [tag]phone calls[/tag], 66% said it would not.

Oddly enough, the public was not willing to give up on [tag]privacy[/tag] rights altogether. Nearly half of poll respondents (45%) said the government is not doing enough to protect Americans’ rights as it investigates terrorism. How does one explain how so many people want more privacy protection but are unconcerned about records of all of their phone calls going into a secret NSA database for unknown reasons? Beats me.

What’s more, the small-government crowd isn’t mad about the NSA database program; it’s mad about journalists telling us about the program. Eight in 10 conservatives said secretly collecting domestic telephone records is acceptable, while nearly six in 10 conservatives said media disclosure of the practice was wrong.

There are a few other angles to the poll to keep in mind.

First, the poll was taken just last night, about 12 hours or so after Americans first heard about the NSA program. Sometimes stories like this need time to sink in. People’s first reaction might change when they pick up the phone today to call their doctor (or their spouse, or their bank, or their 900 number) and think to themselves, “Hmm, the NSA is going to put this call in a [tag]secret[/tag] government [tag]database[/tag].”

Second, a poll like this is likely to have political consequences. Republican skepticism about this controversy was shaky to begin with. If everyone on the Hill is convinced that two-in-three Americans have no problem with the NSA secretly collecting domestic phone records, then GOP interest in hearings and oversight will go from minimal to non-existent.

If so, the coming weeks will be disappointing: Bush will feel emboldened on the issue, Dems will shift their focus elsewhere, and the story will fade. At least until a different [tag]poll[/tag] says the opposite.

People still don’t believe that this affects them personally. Remind them: From now on, whenever you’re on the phone, right after you say “hello,” add “This call is being monitored by the NSA.”

  • It’s not the listening that is the main issue. There is a process that needs to be followed. The NSA again has set itself above the law by not going to FISA first. Although I do have problems with the whole Big Brother thing, first follow the law.

  • Evidently the collective psychosis our society went into after 9/11 is not yet over.

    People don’t like invasions of their privacy, it seems, unless it has to do with “security.” There’s the contradiction, CB. People in this country love to be told over and over that they’re rugged individualists — practically every TV commercial stokes this belief — but throw in the word “security” and they remember the Twin Towers coming down. Many would then hand over their first-born child to Bush if it would make them feel “safer.”

    “Security” remains Bush’s (and Rove’s) trump card.

  • What most of the masses don’t get is that even a mere call to your Aunt Millie in California can be used against you. Howard Stern used someone’s voice track for a prank call–for example R Lee Emery’s lines from Full Metal Jacket. Now imagine a government organization manipulating this for less than honorable purpose. Not pretty.

    Sad thing is we don’t even need to imagine it. A Hollywood detective to the stars by the name of Pellicano was hired by some very rich and powerful folks to eavesdrop on people they didn’t like for whatever reason. He used the same stuff the NSA used to monitor the calls. Imagine if a political rival decided to use the NSA system for politics, personal jealousy, hatred of various groups or even having a different opinion?

    What the question really should be: Do you support NSA phone record survellience if the government used your phone records to SwiftBoat you and ruin YOUR life?

  • Once again Americans are thinking only in terms of themselves and not about how this issue affects the country. Karl Rove must be having a field day with all this information.

  • Is it OK for us to NOW, finally, say that America is following Bush down the road to fascism in an all too familiar and frightening redux of Hitler and Germany? IBM was complicit with Hitler, as was Bush’s grandfather and too many other corporatists to forget, in financing and allowing Hitler to do the record-keeping necessary for IDing Jews, gays, etc. for discrimination, punishment and/or extermination.

    We members of the reality-based community are always vilified for calling Bush a new Hitler, or claiming that we are on the road to fascism. Hitler did his early dirty deeds with the full cooperation of the vast majority of German citizens; now this ABC poll would have us believe that the vast majority of Americans agree with Bush’s dirty deeds. I say horseshit…

  • This will be like everything else, broadly supported in its early stages because nobody understands the implications really. When this is paired with thousands of useless tips leading nowhere, to old age homes and bakeries, Americans being scrutinized for no apparent reason then things will sour.

    Its a microcosm of the Iraq war, broadly supported by the mob with no understanding of the long term implications. The public will sour on this as they sour on every marketing drive undertaken by this administration. I read a quote earlier that said that the trick was when looking for a needle in a haystack to make the haystack smaller. This seems to make perfect sense so therefore we can expect the Bushcavites to do the exact opposite and assume everyone is guilty.

  • “The NSA again has set itself above the law by not going to FISA first.” – RDB

    It would not be possible to go to the FISA court. The NSA has not reason to believe that they are capturing any foreign intelligence with this program. It needs to be approved by a regular court.

    It’s not legal, it’s not constitutional, and I’m betting it is not effective.

    It just has HUGE potential for abuse.

  • The fundamental problem with the poll is that it asked the wrong question. The appropriate question to ask is “Do you care if the executive branch of the government breaks the law.” I am not surprised that most Americans are not bothered by the fact that the government is tracking telephone calling patterns (excluding those carrying on extramarital affairs and the like) — most people have fairly boring lives, and laugh at the concept that the government would be interested in their calls. To be honest, I don’t really care about that issue very much. What I do care about, however, is the fact that the government seems to routinely ignore laws that were put into place to protect peoples’ rights, and prevents those charged with oversight duties from doing their jobs in the name of “national security.” In other words, the appropriate action, from a political response, should be to downplay that specific activities and highlight the obfuscation and dubious legal status of this and other activities.

  • We had this discussion with some friends over dinner – she kept saying she didn’t understand why it was a big deal, because they wouldn’t be listening to her conversations because she wasn’t doing anything wrong. I tried to point out that it wasn’t that they weren’t listening to her, but that they COULD, if they wanted. I have a scary mental picture of a bored federal listener flipping through conversations the way you flip through radio stations (I’ve no idea if this is even physically possible, but who knows??) and coming across someone placing their credit card order with Land’s End…

  • I guess it’s hard for people to put two and two together, so maybe you have to spell it out.

    On the otherhand maybe we could just allude that Ashcroft was lying when he said the gun owner database wasn’t being deleted after background checks.

  • No one asked me. I do care about the phone records and all of the other law breaking.

  • It’s the “i’m not doing anything wrong” mentality. Since I’m such a good citizen, I have nothing to fear from the government. Even if the NSA is keeping track on how many times you visit porn sites and call people you don’t want you’re spouse to find out about, it’s not like you’re plannig to blow up a building or anything.

    Unfortunately, that means that we are no longer American citizens, who have the final say on what goes on in our country, but are now American subjects, guilty until proven innocent.

  • I don’t trust the poll. It came out awfully fast, so either it was taken before this news was released, or it was one of those quickies that don’t hold up once the public has a chance to digest the information. Also, when you follow the link to the article, it gives you an opportunity to vote on whether it’s okay for the government to track your calls. The nays have it by a 3 to 1 margin.

  • I would rather try to persuade a man to go along, because once I have persuaded him, he will stick. If I scare him, he will stay just as long as he is scared, and then he is gone.

    If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom.

    Dwight D. Eisenhower

  • I question the methodology. My phone calls consist of the most meaningless platitutes in terms of national security.

    “Hey Andrew, when’s the soccer team starting up?”

    “Happy Mother’s Day, mom.”

    “Sorry boss, I’m stuck in traffic, I’m going to be a little late getting to work.”

    “Honey, do you need me to pick you up today?”

    “What do you mean, you cancelled my service!?!?!?!?” (Yeah, I’m a bastard when I have to call customer support.)

    So yeah, I’m not really bothered about my phone calls. But I contend that isn’t really the question the pollsters should be asking.

    Unless, of course, they want to create the illusion of support for a program that has none, which is something this administration and its supporters are pretty good at, incidentally.

  • What the average American isn’t getting is the NSA is trying to find out if you’re one of “them.” In this us against them world, that can be a very bad thing.

    If their computer algorithm flags your phone number, for whatever reason, being one of “them” means detention without charges or a lawyer, extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo if they feel like it and that basically a person has no rights to anything once the NSA suspects you of “themness.” I’m sure in the world’s largest database, no mistakes will ever be made.

  • Anyone who wants a lengthy discussion on this from people with a variety of viewpoints could check out Slashdot.

    http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/12/1334217

    Though I warn you, there are a LOT of comments. But there is a rating system so you could filter out the least notable ones.

    And someone mentioned the timing of the poll. An early /. commenter noted the article said “This Washington Post-ABC News poll was conducted by telephone May 11, 2006 among 502 randomly selected adults.”

  • Aside from the invasion of privacty issues, the Government cannot be allowed to run roughshod over existing laws, even when they and two thirds of the people (unfortunately) don’t care.

    There is a process that must be followed to have laws changed, and when the public ignores that process the journey down the slippery slope has more than begun.

    This Administration has consistently overstepped the lawful boundaries of its duty, but it isn’t suprising when the response from Congress and the American public is a resounding ‘meh.’

  • ABC News
    DO YOU AGREE?
    3,589
    Is it okay for the government to track phone calls made by you and millions of other Americans?

    No, it is not acceptable no matter what the government says.
    2,660
    Yes, if the government says it is necessary to fight terrorism.
    929
    Total Vote: 3,589
    Not a scientific survey. For entertainment only.

  • Maybe what’s going on will start to sink in once the Hayden hearings start. I hope they can put him under oath for that. Is that SOP? There’s also a lot of news and info regarding this stuff raining down on our stupified citizenry right now. The story about the Justice Dept. being thwarted from investigating the NSA:

    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/7380.html

    is kind of getting mooshed into this new phone number gathering story and that is diluting both. The Justice Dept./NSA thing is nuts in it’s own right.

    We really are headed down the road to fascism. And I think religious Dominionism is in the mix as well.

  • It is also worth checking out this CNN.com page of opinions from various citizens:

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/12/feedback.phone.records/index.html

    To me the issue is all about the fact that:
    a. willful and repetitve use of power without oversight is the road to abuse of that power
    b. this admin in particular cannot be trusted to try abusing the data
    c. we probably do not know the extent of the program, re: selective monitoring might be occuring after you rightly or wrongly flagged based on patterns. Also, though everyone assumes that you must be connected to the number of known terrorist, I suspect that they can also flag you by calling patterns that disregard the tel #’s, ie duration, frequency, geographic location called, etc. For example, if you place many short calls to a neighborhood in a some city, even if it is not to flagged numbers, you still might be considered for content monitoring.

    I understand why and how this type of monitoring can be useful. I just have no faith in the current admin to conduct this type of activity within any real ethical standards.

  • I think that petorado (#18) nails this pretty well. While this NSA database is disturbing by itself, when you add in all the other rights that have been encroached on this downright scary.

  • I’d like to hear a little more discussion about what might be done with these records.

    We’ve heard that they’re not listening to the calls but looking for patterns. Presumably, what they mean is they want to track everybody who calls anybody on their “suspicious” list. Those people, then, they may actively bug. Or arrest and put in prison without a trial. I’m assuming that the calls include cel phone records. Would an American who pals around with a kid whose cousin is a terrorist and gives him a call one day, then makes a reservation for Disneyworld the next, going to be the subject of a midnight raid? Practically speaking, what could these ‘patterns’ yield, how could they be used productively, and how would they most likely be abused?

  • Re: #25: Most likely abuse is persecuting Bush’s political opponents, I’m sure. Probably to help the GOP in the 2006 and 2008 elections. First it will be the terrorists. Then it will be people suspected of sympathizing with them. Then it will be liberals. Then it will be Democrats. And so on. Until there’s no one left to speak out when they come for you.

    Yes, we really do need to have this discussion. How does this Sunday work for you, CB? 🙂

  • It seems clear that, if the poll is at all accurate, Americans care about neither privacy nor freedom. According to our Founding Fathers, that means we deserve neither.

  • Not sure what the news is here. I have assumed that the NSA has been monitoring almost every electronic communication possible, worldwide for many years, even prior to 9/11. This disclosure about the telephone records may be covering for something far more nefarious.

    Spyware is somewhat routinely installed on our computers. Probably a minority of PC users actively try to nullify it. So, why am I not surprised by this polling data?

    What seems to be so perplexing is the charge from Republicans that revealing these programs has somehow tipped the bad guys off about our ability to monitor them. Why do the keepers of the secrets think that the public is so stupid as to believe that what they are doing is actually protecting us from terrorists who abandoned monitorable communications long before these programs were revealed? That since they have not attacked us since 9/11, the methods must be working?

    Come on. How many years was it between the first and then the fatal attack on the World Trade Center? These terrorists can lie low for years. And they can hurt us a hell of a lot worse by hitting some strategic energy targets off of our shore (with the exception of a dirty bomb in the midst of one of our major metro areas).

    The chief question is: Are these surveillance efforts really making us significantly safer than before 9/11? Or is attacking the leakers making the country significantly safer from democrats taking over Congress? Damn democrats, trying to tell us how to live our lives.

  • It doesn’t matter what the public thinks. That’s the point. The only thing that matters is what multinational corporations want their governmental stooges to do in oder to boost the “take home” of their principal investors.

    This process — of moving from, first, from a family/tribal society based on patriarchal will to, second, a nation-state society based on law to, third (and final), a contractual market society leading to increasing dominance by fewer and fewer multinational corporations — was described over 150 years ago by Auguste Comte.

    On second thought, don’t bother with arcane French political philosophers. Just think “Animal Farm” or “1984”.

  • Has it occurred to anyone that spying on average americans is a waste of time and money? Why is the NSA listening to you talk about corns and loss of hearing with Aunt Myrtle?

  • What I find interesting is that so many people read so much into this. The fact is that private companies have collected information much like the NSA has for years. The phone records collected state that 9078311550 dialed 01121503652 call lasted 15 minutes. These are the records that are being collected. Not the actual conversations themselves. Here is a newsflash for everyone. There is nothing illegal about that. If there was we would not get phone calls from marketers. Personaly, I would be more concerned about marketing agents getting these lists because then I get phone call at dinner (I live in Alaska right now, so thankfully, I do not get many of these) wanting me to buy some product. The NSA is appears to be acting on a law that existed even before the Patriot Act came into being. There are search warrant exclusion laws that this can fall into, Good Faith. The NSA are looking for specific information but it does not actually interfere with anyones life unless you are calling known terrorists or suspected terrorists. While, it is apparent that most of you can cultivate some type of intelligence on the matter, it would appear that some of you are confusing the current issue with issue previous to this one. So rub the ganglia together stop and do some more research.

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