If math is secular, math is bad

August 18, 2006

When most people think about the religious right’s biggest names, folks like Robertson, Falwell, and Dobson come to mind. But there’s a TV preacher in Florida named D. James Kennedy who enjoys a huge following, has signficant political influence, and hosts widely-attended conferences that he calls “Reclaiming America for Christ.”

And what do eager followers learn at these events? Well, consider what one Kennedy acolyte, Dr. Paul Jehle, explained at one recent conference, discussing “evaluating your philosophy of education.”

“I was taking calculus. I was a mathematics major and I was at a Christian college that was called Christian, but was not Christian….

“I asked a question to my calculus professor: ‘What makes this course distinctly Christian?’ He stopped. He said no one has ever asked that question before…

“He said, ‘Okay, I’m a Christian you’re a Christian.’

“I said, ‘That’s not what I asked! What makes this calculus course distinctly Christian? What makes this different from the local secular university. Are we using the same text? Yes. Are you teaching it the same way? Yes. Then why is this called a Christian college and that one a non-Christian college?'”

In a nutshell, this is why having serious discussions with religious-right activists is so frustrating. When I say the die-hards have a different worldview, I’m not kidding.

I’m surprised he didn’t balk at the more obvious fact that our numbers are Arabic in origin and that Christians fought forever to reject the concept of zero because the concept of nothing had no place in their theology.

  • Actually he has an excellent point. A college is a place where students learn a variety of subjects commonly understood to contribute to a well-rounded education, including such totally secular subjects as math, science, biology, geology, etc.

    Taken in that light, the designation “Christian” for any mainstream school would be mostly for marketing purposes unless they maybe offered a few more religion-themed classes than others might. Otherwise it wouldn’t seem to matter much.

    What he really wants is a seminary, not a college or university. Or maybe one of those places that are basically training grounds for religious zealots with a thin coating of standard educational classes to give them cover for their real agenda.

  • True weird story: I recently had a young man try the same sort of argument in a seminar I was giving. All the attendants were from the same Catholic school.

    I couldn’t really understand what he was driving at initially, then I just asked him “Do you wipe your anus?” After some back and forth he acknowledged that yes, he does use tissue (or at least he was unwilling to admit not using tissue in a co-ed audience).

    So I asked him, “Are you saying that when the remains of the Body of Christ leave your rectum you treat them exactly the same way that Charles Manson handles a digested Cheeto in a steel toilet in prison? What is Catholic about that?”

    I intended to go on to explain that I was only presenting tools, like a hammer. Rather you should use them to nail people to crosses or build homes for Habitat for Humanity is where spirituality comes into the picture. But he stormed out in a sea of laughter after the Manson metaphor.

    -jjf

  • WOW. I would love to see a math book he might find accomidating for a Christian school.

    And do you think he feels the same way about the math classes his accountants took ?

  • Bear with me on this:
    When Tom Delay told reporters that the reason he did not go into the military was that all of the slots in the military had been taken by minorities, there was stunned silence from the group. None of the reporters could believe that something so stupid could be stated, much less used as a reason or excuse. Delay took the silence as a sign of acceptance.
    My impression from this brief article would be that the calculus teacher was stunned in a similar fashion. Too stunned to say something like, “What a dumbass question! This is an American University, not a Pakistani Madrassa. If you want religious indoctrination only, go join a cult. Otherwise STFU, and sit down.”
    Again, this “student” seems to have taken the lack of a forceful response as evidence that they had an actual valid point.
    Pretty funny.

  • It’s Christian because it commemorates the mathematicians and scientists excommunicated and burned by them. Right?

  • Fitz,
    LOL

    Is there anyone else who thinks this story reminds him of Communists? They used to think that science and math were political (not religious but it can be taken in the same context as it being “blessed” for them to learn)?

    I guess Christian numbers are actually Roman ones. Try dealing with calculus using such a clumsy number system.

  • Try dealing with calculus using such a clumsy number system

    Or dealing with calculus using the biblical value of PI as 3.0.

  • The great thing about America is that everyone has the right to act like a jackass from time to time. God gave us brains to help make sure we don’t do it too often.

  • I guess in a sense the IRS does honor Chrisitian accounting. All that money Dobson, Falwell et a-holes bring in is just exempted.

  • Then why don’t “Christian colleges” require all students to read and speak “Christian”, not English, study for Christian veterinary work, study for Christian accounting, use Christian algebra and geometry, even create their own “Christian money”.

    Of course all the Christian courses could NOT include anything secular at all, including language, so somebody’s got to get busy creating new fields of study for “Christians”. Then send ’em out into the secular world where nobody will understand or do commerce with them since they speak only “Christian” and have only Christian money.

    What an incredibly stupid student that was. . .

  • … one Kennedy acolyte, Dr. Paul Jehle …

    Is that a PhD in zealotry or stupidity?

  • Well, the derivative of God with respect to Mary is Jesus, so I think everything is okay. In symbols,

    dGod/dMary = Jesus

    Note also that the standard symbol for a function is f(x), where
    x rotated 90 degrees is a cross.

    So that student hasn’t got anything to worry about.

  • It all comes down to: “I believe what I believe because I believe it.” It’s a closed loop. Trying to apply logic or reason is outside of the purview of FAITH and meaningless to the TRULY FAITHFUL. Jihadist suicide bombers and the American religious right are fundamentally indistinguishable.

    My God is the true God and yours is a chld molesting pervert.

  • “Then why don’t “Christian colleges” require all students to read and speak “Christian”, not English……” – anney

    Here’s another sad but true story. I have a cousin who was taken by her mom to live at some kind of “Christian” settlement in Arkansas at a young age. I hadn’t heard from her for maybe forty years. When her dad died a couple of years ago, I got an e-mail from her.

    I tried to establish a dialogue, find out how she’d been, what she was doing.

    She literally wrote nothing but Bible verses. I could sense that she was desperately trying to communicate, but she literally had no means of expressing herself except with what she had been programmed with. And I am not making this up.

    Whoever is responsible for this kind of thing….well, the punishment should be severe.

  • We have no choice but to live according to natural laws – laws of physics, chemistry, biology – and any social system that is designed to function in contradiction of those laws is going to fail.

    When we understand that, I’ll begin to have more hope for the future of our species.

  • It’s becoming an unsettling trend with Christian fundametalists to try to apply a Christain frame work over everything and breaking down the world into 2 categories, Christian and non-Christian, with the Christian mantra being to praise Christ in every aspect of life. Non-Christian interests are to be discouraged and should not be pursued.

    The problem with dividing up the world like this is that non-Christian becomes a very broad category and includes many scientific concepts and most modern forms of entertainment. To counter this, advertisers have begun to add the tag word ‘Christian’ to different products. We now have Christian television, Christian rock music, Christian fiction, Christian games, and other Christian fads (remember the WWJD bracelets?). In a lot of instances, the ‘Christian’ variety of a product is not entirely distinguishable from the secular variety. There have been a good number of bands I did not realize were considered Christian rock until someone pointed it out specifically to me. There is also a ‘Christian’ version of one of my favorite board games, Settlers of Katan, known as Settlers of Caanan. I have not played the Christian version to see if it is, as I suspect, the same game with various names changed. It all reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Bart plays video games with the Flanders kids and they end up playing Billy Grahm’s Bible Buster (Convert the heathans!).

    Jehle’s comments seem to be pointing to a similar argument. If Christians really want to praise Christ with every aspect of their lives, then they need to be able to see through marketing strategies and think about what is really Christian about their so called ‘Christian’ products. Is that song really Christian if it does not explicity praise Christ? How is a Christian university different from a regular university? Of all the bizarre bs the guy spouted, that is the one valid point to walk away with.

    However, Jehle’s argument quickly falls apart, along with the attempt to apply a Christian framework over the entire world. Some things are inherantly secular and not everything can be considered Christian. This is a concept Christians need to come to grips with. Math is one of those inherently secular things, along with modern science (including biology) and healthcare. In an attempt to place everything in a ‘Christian or non-Christian’ world, Jehle makes a ridiculous argument and looks like a fool.

    Jehle’s other argument seems to be things that are inherently non-Christian cannot be made Christian. This takes care of slapping a ‘Christian’ label on to just about anything, but does leave an interesting loop hole. What about the bible? The old testament is inherantly non-Christian. Following Jehle’s argument, it cannot be made into something Christian. The argument also leaves open an interesting paradox – when does Christianity become not Christian enough? What happened to simple Christian values, such as treating others with kindness and respect, helping your fellow man, and turning the other cheek? Why is that not enough anymore? To me, following the more simple creed of trying your hardest to be nice to people will honor Christ so much more.

    Thanks for the rant

  • It is in this area, perhaps more than any other, that the gap between ‘Christian’ and Catholic culture is easiest to see.

    Even at places like Cardinal Stritch, or Mundelein, or St. Thomas in Santa Paula, I can’t imagine such an exchange taking place, never mind B.C. or Georgetown or Marquette.

  • It is pretty simple. If he is not taught “Christian Calculus” he will not be able to properly calculate when Armageddon is coming. If he does not know the exact moment, he might have to start living as Jesus taught if he hopes to make it to Heaven. If he knows that date and time, he can wait until the last minute to ask for forgiveness.

    Just look what happened to Homer when he miscalculated the datetime. (VTIdealist already used a Simpsons reference, but there are oh so many)

  • Wow.. I thought that name sounded familiar. I actually once knew Dr. Jehle, he was tangentially involved in GOP politics on Cape Cod. He was aligned with the home-schooling folks I helped out when I was on the school board. I have to be honest and say that I had no clue he was such a nut. He never pushed religion on me, and he seemed like a decent human being.

  • Actually, “Aryan physics” illustrates an important mathematical concept–it’s a null set.

  • If the Holy Flakes had their way, they would do for the US what the Khmer Rouge did for Cambodia.

  • If the Holy Flakes had their way, they would do for the US what the Khmer Rouge did for Cambodia.

    Comment by Michael7843853 G-O in 08!

    Oh no forced Sunday School re-education camps. Oh the lemonade. Oh the cookies. Oh the horror!

    Just kidding. There are Chrisitan authoritarians that are actively playing on the slippery slope Michael mentions.

  • My Mother survived WWII by escaping to Soviet Union. While there, she was once asked: “your country is capitalist, so you don’t have Lenin’s light. How do you cope?” My mother, who by then knew that “Lenin’s light” meant electricity, took a deep breath and replied: “our moon shines so brightly, we don’t need it”.

    Whether her interlocutor believed it or not, I don’t know; she never said. But the obvious answer to the student-Jehle would have been:
    “all math is intrinsically Christian; just look at the signs which signify addition and multiplication, the precepts that God has laid on all living things (go forth and multiply). The reason the same math is taught at both Christian and non-Christian schools is that Christians are slipping one over the heathens.”

    That would have left Dr (of what???) Jehle feeling good instead of traumatized for life (I doubt he knew then — or knows now — that our numbers and the concept of zero are non-Christian)

  • You mean the professor failed to teach the new Christian math? No demonstration of how millions of years can = 7 days?

    For shame.

    Next these colleges will stop serving Christian food. And then before you know it, there will be no Christian violins, no Christian typing, no Christian foreign languages, and no Christian pillowcases.

    This trend has got to be stopped.

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