Why is Bush so determined to engage in torture?

The issue isn’t officially on the congressional calendar this week, but torture is likely to dominate the debate in DC this week, with White House lobbying, negotiations, and media attention focused on debate. Paul Krugman takes a step back, however, and asks a big-picture question that doesn’t get enough attention: “Why is Mr. Bush so determined to engage in torture?” It’s true; we don’t quite know for sure.

Krugman has a theory: the Bush administration is so determined to torture people “to show that it can.”

The central drive of the Bush administration — more fundamental than any particular policy — has been the effort to eliminate all limits on the president’s power. Torture, I believe, appeals to the president and the vice president precisely because it’s a violation of both law and tradition. By making an illegal and immoral practice a key element of U.S. policy, they’re asserting their right to do whatever they claim is necessary.

It’s a compelling explanation. As we talked about earlier, John Yoo, who helped shape the administration’s policies in this area, believes in acquiring additional executive branch power just for the sake of having it. Under this approach, Bush wants the power to torture in large part because he doesn’t want anyone or anything telling him he doesn’t have the power to torture.

There is, however, an even more persuasive explanation.

I think Ezra has it right.

The Bush administration’s approach to the War on Terrorism has bespoke a profound immaturity on the subject. While the intelligence community easily separates the current conflict from an episode of 24, there’s precious little evidence that Bush is similarly adept. I’d guess that some tough-talking hero-type from the CIA has Bush’s ear and trust and has convinced him that torture is a necessary element of America’s strength in this conflict.

While other spooks (and the US Army) deride the effectiveness of harsh methods, there’s no doubt that they have a certain superficial claim to usefulness. In an administration with no interest in empiricism and a demonstrated proclivity towards favoring information that accords with their instincts, trumping the data dismissing torture’s effectiveness probably wasn’t hard at all.

I definitely agree. On the surface, this may seems absurd. It’s pretty obvious that torture doesn’t work. Indeed, it hasn’t even worked for Bush, with his administration acting on bogus tips “coerced” from detainees, who felt compelled to tell officials what they wanted to hear, just to make the torture stop.

For the reality-based community, evidence like this matters. If we want reliable intelligence, and torture produces unreliable intelligence, there’s no point in embracing torture. (This, of course, is purely a practical argument, and puts aside the fact that torture is morally repugnant under all circumstances.)

But this doesn’t apply to the Bush gang at all — because they’ve proven that evidence and reality aren’t terribly important to them. Indeed, these are the folks who create their own reality. “Why is Mr. Bush so determined to engage in torture?” Because he’s convinced — or, more likely, someone has convinced him — that it’s a necessary tool in his arsenal. Whether it is or not is irrelevant.

Another explaination is that the administration has already engaged in so much lawlessness and torture that Bush fears reprisal and consequences if the Dems ever get to the bottom of what has been going on. I think it is CYA. He is trying to get Congress to cover him retroactively so he is protected when the truth comes out. That is why he was pressuring them to act quickly, presumably before the elections, so he can claim that he was acting lawfully.

  • “Why is Mr. Bush so determined to engage in torture?”

    Another explanation: He doesn’t think he’s torturing. Especially when they are non-white and thus de-humanized, suddenly waterboarding a “suspected insurgent” doesn’t “shock the conscience” any more.

    In fact note that Senators Warner, Graham etc frame their argument as “We can’t torture because hell with the people we torture, but one day Iran may torture OUR GUYS and then it would suck.”. That should give us a clue.

    Another pet peeve I have is the word, “captured in a battefield”, thus implying they are NOT captured as part of, say, a door-to-door search based on a wild hunch (which is very often the case)…

  • Herr Bush is a xenophobic bully, and represents the twenty-first century’s version of George Armstrong Custer. He can’t get enough of torturing Muslims, just as Custer couldn’t get enough of hunting Native Americans. The only difference is that Custer didn’t subject every American man, woman, and child to his “Little Big Horn….”

  • I’m more cynical…

    If they can legally torture people, then they can extract useful “information” which they can then breathlessly relay to the media as they try to scare the crap out of Joe Public and thus escape going on trial for… torturing people illegally (and other crimes).

    “Security” is their only remaining card, and torture is how they get the juicy bits to leak to the press. They could just make up stories of course, but if they actually torture it out of someone, if they get put on trial they can say they got the information from “terrorists”.

    The problem is that Joe Public thinks torture works. Joe won’t be able to sort out why they could have gotten anything they wanted to hear out of anyone, including Joe.

  • It’s despicable that President George W. Bush has a deep fascination with torture. Does he get a vicarious thrill and jollies from the thought of being able to have those under him inflict torture? Does he really have a true desire to combat terrorism or is it merely for show–and photo-ops? It seems the latter options are more likely.

    Let’s hope those callous politicians now in power will be replaced with caring, responsive, and responsible ones by the American electorate–resoundingly–in the coming ’06 and ’08 elections. May true democracy be restored to our shores.

  • I think more likely is that this plays well with a large segment of our country. It’s another wedge issue: find some area so reprehensible, Democrats find themselves on the same side as the terrorists.

    It’s frightening, I know, but there are a lot of people who grew up playing martial arts video games and playing D&D who totally buy into the Rambo angst. When they listen to talk radio and talk about torture and paving over the Middle East with a Nuke, it makes them feel like Clint Eastwood, without ever having to leave their LazyBoy.

    Those fools out there protesting don’t know what it’s like out in the real world of the Good, The Bad and the Ugly! If only they’d seen the Wild Geese like I have, they wouldn’t be so naive!

  • Another practical problem with torture is that al queda and other organizations make sure few individuals have information on a whole operation. Even if a torture victim really tells all he knows, what he knows is probably not much.

    At this point, however, I think Bush could change our national anthem to “Muskrat Love,” and nobody would notice.

  • RacerX: The problem is that Joe Public thinks torture works.

    exactly.

    CB: Why is Bush so determined to engage in torture?

    cause he thinks force against whatever is proof of his totally macho masculinity-ishness? for the same reason he ‘cuts brush’ down on his pig farm, errr, ‘ranch’ (his TWAT: Total War Against Timber). anyway, in his POV masculinity = big dick and y’all know the rest. we HAVE to have the biggest in the entire world or teh terror will get US.

  • I basically agree with GRACIOUS, but I don’t think that Bush is that worried about investigations by Democrats; I think that he is more worried by the International Court Justice at the Hague. Bush does fear the Democrats winning back the Senate or House, thus preventing his legislation to be enacted for the purpose of CYA.

    And as far Bush’s secret evidence carnard goes, it has been suggested elsewhere that sharing evidence would expose the truth about the war in Afghanistan (mismanagement) and that CIA reports would expose to sunlight would show that our biggest ally in the WOT, Pakistan (and which got a billion or two of U.S. taxpayer dollars), has been a breeding ground for terrorists for years.

  • Even if you make the argument that torture may work in a particular instance, say, that you get good info on a real planned attack, AND you stop it, the question is, how much other crap did you get along with it, and more importantly, at what cost do you attain that info?

    If torturing people only incites people to further hatred and violence against us, and a decline in our moral standing, how exactly is this trade off worth it, especially seeing as, so far, it doesnt look like there is any verifiable proof that there have been any benefits from the torture employed so far. It seems pretty clear as well, that the cost is immeasurable and very large, only, it has been so far, to the administration’s advantage, taken out on other countries.

  • They are pushing it for all of the reasons listed above and because they understand that Christofacist portion of the “base” (in several senses of the word) craves blood. The base likes the idea of some guy getting his fingernails ripped out because the base has spent a little too much time reading the Old Testament of the Bible and The Book of Revelation and the Left Behind series. As a result the bases’ heads are filled with graphic images of bloody vengance being inflicted on sinners – ie everyone who isn’t exactly like the Christofacists. I mean, we’re talking about Muslims, right? They’re going to Hell anyway, right? Why not give them a preview of what’s in store. Maybe they’ll repent.

    The average hard-core evangelical would creep out the Marquis de Sade. Bush just has to say “alternative interogation techniques” or whatever code phrase he’s using for torture and even if he only mentions sleep deprivation, thet Perverts-for-Christ contingent will assume that’s only part of the story. They’ll be certain that some where brown guys are being sodomized by dogs while Ann Coulter goes to work on their feet with a rubber hose. The only fly in their ointment will be the fact that they can’t watch.

  • CB, from the LA Times article link to support the argument that torture doesn’t work:

    “‘No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tell us that,’ said Lt. Gen. John Kimmons, the Army’s deputy chief of staff for intelligence….

    “Kimmons’ comments reflect a common refrain among instructors at the Army intelligence academy at Ft. Huachuca, Ariz. Nevertheless, many interrogators privately acknowledge that coercive methods that stop short of torture have proven effective in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    “In Afghanistan, for instance, interrogators who questioned prisoners early in the war complained that they had little success with straightforward approaches, and only began to get meaningful information from prisoners after embracing harsher methods, including short-term deprivation of sleep.”

    OK, so what constitutes “meaningful information” (generally)? Are Army interrogators or CIA/contractor interrogators the ones deciding what information is meaningful? I think these are important facts the reporter doesn’t tell us. Moreover, these “nevertheless” statements hurt arguments made by reasonable people that torture is NEVER effective.

  • Dear slip kid no more:
    I like the idea of an international court to try Bush and friends for war crimes. If only it would happen. That is probably why these thugs are so interested in getting the US out of all the treaties and the UN. They don’t want to be accountable to anyone, not their own people, and certainly not the world.

  • Their entire facade of “toughness” is built on the perception that there are no limits to what they’ll do to fight the terrorists. So, they stretch the limits of morality, legality and common decency until Democrats are forced to start sounding like the ACLU.

    If a guy knows where a bomb is planted in NYC, are you saying you wouldn’t shove a banana up a man’s ass?

  • I think Ohioan (#3) has it right — the entire neocon movement is based upon degrading their “enemies” (both real and imagined).

    When it comes to terrorists, they see them as subhuman. It’s the same thing military personnel do and have done for centuries. And in some ways it’s necessary. Not good, but necessary.

    Only a truly raging pyschopath can kill another human being. So, as a psychological defense mechanism, those whose job it is to kill others have to denegrate the enemy to such a degree that the enemy becomes an animal, evil, or whatever. It just makes it easier.

    I’m guessing that has something to do with torture — Bush doesn’t see terrorists as fellow humans, so he can easily advocate and ask for those under his command to torture the crap out of them (sometimes literally).

    And, no, I’m not a psychologist. I just play one on the Internets.

  • Given that two of the top three Republicans can be referred to as President Frog-Killer and Senator Kitten-Murderer (aka Frist), and given that a desire to torture small defenseless animals is a precursor to out and out psychopathology, I think the desire to torture may be found in deeper recesses of the usual Republican mind. As with Dobson, the boy who was beaten within an inch of his life frequently, whose main prescription for disciplining a child is to beat them.

    These guys all needed a good dose of what I got the day my friend Russell Henry and I stomped a chicken to death at the age of 4. After we were found out, I soon realized personally just what that chicken had been through, and never ever after did I need further instruction or discipline on the rule that one does not torture the defenseless.

    Republicans, who have all either been the sandbox bully or the kid who got bullied, are all in need of major mental health interventions.

    As for Cheney – given that he’s the spawn of Satan, no further explanation is necessary.

  • memekiller,

    but there are a lot of people who grew up playing martial arts video games and playing D&D who totally buy into the Rambo angst.

    where did this come from? people who played D&D as kids support Bush and torture? That’s an astonishing leap. I don’t know where your bias against D&D comes from, but why not throw in Risk and Football and laser tag and paintball into your miasma of “reasoning”.

  • Herr Bush is a xenophobic bully, and represents the twenty-first century’s version of George Armstrong Custer. He can’t get enough of torturing Muslims, just as Custer couldn’t get enough of hunting Native Americans.

    That is an exceedingly shallow analysis Steve, and demonstrates a real thorough lack of knowledge of the actual facts of the case. Not to defend Custer, but he was actually the guy who argued against that sort of policy with his bosses, Phil Sheridan and William Tecumseh Sherman, who were determined to put their experience in creating total war to work in the Indian Wars of the West.

    Given that I normally find myself in agreement with you, I find this post awfully disappointing, something I’d expect from some idiot wingnut, not somone intelligent enough to be someone I agree with so frequently.

    No, I am not attacking or chastising you, but it’s really important these days to have to hand the actual facts when one makes allegations and comparisons. Your comparisons with the Nazis, BTW, are dead-on, and to hell with Godwin’s Law when you make them. 🙂

  • Edo,
    I hung out with the D&D players, so I know-of what I speak. I played it, too. But there’s a difference between reading cynical, dark graphic novels and watching Schwarzennegger movies, and thinking that’s really the way the world works.

    Seriously, I think Bush’s entire foreign policy is born out of watching Rambo III, where you can overthrow Afghanistan with one machine gun, provided you’re a kick-ass American, unecumbered by restraints on ethics, legality, or reality.

  • Dr. Roberts is Chairman of the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute. He is a former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal, former contributing editor for National Review, and was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He is the co-author of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.

    War Criminal at Bay
    by Paul Craig Roberts

    DIGG THIS

    President George Bush, betrayed by the neoconservatives whom he elevated to power and by his Attorney General, Torture Gonzales who gave him wrong legal advice, is locked in a desperate struggle with the Republican Congress to save himself from war crimes charges at the expense of America’s reputation and our soldiers’ fate.

    Beguiled by neoconservatives, who told him that the virtuous goals of the American empire justified any means, and misled by an incompetent Attorney General, who told him that the President of the US is above the law, Bush was deceived into committing war crimes under Article 3 of the Geneva Convention and the US War Crimes Act of 1996. Bush is now desperately trying to save himself by having the US Congress retroactively repeal both Article 3 and US law.

    Under the US Constitution retroactive law is without force, but desperate men will try anything.

    President Bush has given no thought to the impact on America’s reputation of his strident campaign to write torture into US law. He has given no thought to what saving himself means for captured US troops if the US government guts Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

    How could he care? This is the same president who prevented the world from intervening to stop Israel’s slaughter of Lebanese civilians. This is the same president who describes tens of thousands of slaughtered Iraqi and Afghan civilians as “collateral damage.” What sort of war is it when civilian casualties far out number casualties among combatants?

    Former Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was used by Bush to lie to the UN in order to create a pretext for Bush’s illegal invasion of Iraq, denounced Bush’s attempt to repeal Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. Powell said Bush’s proposal causes the world to “doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism” and will “put our own troops at risk.” Republican senators John McCain, John Warner, and Lindsey Graham agree with Powell, although their arms may yet be twisted out of their sockets.

    Bush’s claim that America cannot fight the “war on terror” without employing torture is just another Bush lie. It is a known fact that torture produces unreliable information. Torture can make people talk but it cannot make them give reliable information.

    Very few of the tens of thousands of “suspects” that the US has detained are guilty of anything. We know this because the US Iraqi Command says that 18,700 Iraqis have been released since June 2004. US officers told the International Red Cross that 70 to 90 percent of the Iraqi detentions were “mistakes.” (See Associated Press reporter Patrick Quinn, September 17, 2006.)

    Most of these mistakes were people who were simply pulled out of their beds or grabbed off streets as “suspected insurgents,” victims of military sweeps akin to the KGB street sweeps of the Stalin era, which resulted in so many Soviet citizens disappearing into the Gulag. Others were sold to naive Americans by warlords who collected a bounty for turning in “terrorists.”

    When innocent people are tortured they invent information in order to stop the pain. Sometimes they settle a score with a personal enemy or someone they dislike by giving their name. People who experienced Soviet torture and survived say they tried to remember names of deceased persons to identify as “enemies of the state.”

    An actual terrorist or insurgent who believes in his cause is not going to give accurate information. If his torturers demand information on a pending attack, he will give the wrong location. If they demand the identities of his group, he will give the wrong names. He is worth very little as an information source, because his colleagues, aware that he is captured or missing, will change plans and arrangements.

    The US military has not learned anything from torturing detainees and continues to loose the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan despite its widespread use of torture.

    Lying is now a full time occupation for US military spokespersons as well as for President Bush. Lt. Col. Keir-Kevin Curry, a spokesman for US military detainee operations in Iraq says that every detainee ” is detained because he poses a security threat to the government of Iraq, the people of Iraq or coalition forces.” President Bush says, “These are enemy combatants who are waging war on our nation.” Someone needs to tell Bush and Lt. Col. Curry that what they allege cannot be true if 70–90 percent of detainees are mistaken detentions and if 18,700 detainees have been released in the last 14 months.

    Baghdad shopkeeper Amjad Qassim al-Aliyawi is a good example. He languished in detention limbo for 20 months without charges and without apology when released.

    Many studies have concluded that people who go into interrogation and police work are bullies who like to exercise power and to hurt people. Bush is willing to make such people even less accountable in order to protect himself from war crimes charges.

    If Bush were a real man, he would fire Gonzales and the neocons. He would say he was given bad advice and regrets that he didn’t know better than to follow it. He would order closed all the secret prisons, end the illegal policy of rendition, and order that all US military detention facilities be run in strict accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

    This would serve Bush and America’s reputation far better than his attempt to legalize torture.

    September 18, 2006

  • This is the best explanation I’ve seen yet.-

    War Criminal at Bay

    By Paul Craig Roberts

    President George Bush, betrayed by the neoconservatives whom he elevated to power and by his Attorney General, Torture Gonzales who gave him wrong legal advice, is locked in a desperate struggle with the Republican Congress to save himself from war crimes charges at the expense of America’s reputation and our soldiers’ fate.

    Beguiled by neoconservatives, who told him that the virtuous goals of the American empire justified any means, and misled by an incompetent Attorney General, who told him that the President of the US is above the law, Bush was deceived into committing war crimes under Article 3 of the Geneva Convention and the US War Crimes Act of 1996. Bush is now desperately trying to save himself by having the US Congress retroactively repeal both Article 3 and US law.

    Under the US Constitution retroactive law is without force, but desperate men will try anything. – cont.

    War Criminal at Bay
    http://www.vdare.com/roberts/060917_war.htm

  • Erza got it right. Some time ago George Bush asked his Jack Bower question (does torture actually work?) as in “24”, and his boys went out to see. Ever since then they’ve started to realize that they’ve actually been committing crimes, and now they want Congress to rewrite the rules so they aren’t/weren’t.

    Boy George II needs to “cover his ass”, as he likes to say.

  • “Why is Mr. Bush so determined to engage in torture?”

    Because he’s a spoiled brat who imagines himself a tough-guy and to whom no rules or laws apply; a C-student from Texas, with god and a whole bunch of powerful people on his side. “So what are you going to do about it, heh, heh.”

  • Remember when B was governor?
    Remember when he executed that woman?

    Do a web search.
    Here is one copy and paste out of many possibilities:

    “Just before her execution date, Tucker appealed for clemency on the grounds that she had become a born-again Christian. Bush’s reply: `Please,’ Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, `don’t kill me.'”

    Is it not hard to imagine B pursing his lips and mock-whimpering, “Please don’t torture me.”

    Sorry.

    B is the POTUS….
    And “P” stands for Psychopath.

    The guy is mentally ill.
    It is all going to come out in the future.

    I bet my entire net worth on it….

  • I think there are multiple attractions for Bush, as others have said. First, there’s the tough, machismo aspect (“I’m not the wimp my father was” combined with “see, we’re really Rambo-tough even if we didn’t go to Vietnam). Second and third, Cheney and Rove and want to throw out any and all constraints on the presidency, and if they can do it in a way that outrages democrats AND puts Republicans on the other side of a wedge issue from Democrats and terrorists so much the better. They’ve already shown that there’s no limit on how low they’ll stoop to obtain that sort of result.

    More than anything else, though, I think they do it because it works perfectly for them in terms of evidence gathering. Remember, they don’t want correct intelligence – they’ve shown time and time again that they want to be told exactly what they want to hear, and torture can produce that result like no other process. The reality-based community view that as a problem, but I think they view it as a desirable attribute.

  • I have wrestled with the “why” of BushCo’s torture policy for some time.

    Simply put, I think Bush enjoys seeing people (and, as Tom points out, animals) suffer.

    It’s why the man (who, as a boy, blew up frogs with firecrackers) says “So what?” in Matt Lauer’s face when Lauer asks him about the secret CIA prisons. It’s why he condoned Israel’s massive use of force in Lebanon, while having done nothing for six years to broker an Israeli-Palestinian peace. It’s why he feels no remorse about Abu Ghraib (or, for that matter, Katrina). It’s why he thinks so many foreign policy matters can be settled with a gun.

    Cheney is more complicated. It’s easy to blow him off as “evil” or “satanic,” but since he’s the one putting the ideas in Bush’s head, we have to get beneath the surface. Aside from Cheney’s obvious love of raw power, and the ability to wield it as he sees fit, Big Dick also seems to be fighting this War on Terror because he’s been personally humiliated by “the terrorists.” Not only did September 11 happen on his watch, but “the terrorists” had the audacity to make him flee for his life that day. For that act of effrontery, there will never be an end to Cheney’s rage and need for revenge — and woe to anyone who gets in his way.

  • The Greatest Generation must be rolling over in their military graves at this rush to torture. The ban of torture is as basic to our way of life as the constitution itself.

    Debate? There is no debate. The US doesn’t toture, well, didn’t torture.

  • The Bush Administration has shown itself to be a nasty bunch of peckerheads over the years, leaving no stone of viciousness unturned in their brand of politics. While agree about their sociopathic tendencies, I think the torture question comes down to two things: their nasty brand of “pragmatism” and their willingness to do anything to make the Dems look weak.

    I do think Bush is aware he’s crossed lines of decency and legality. The decency thing was ejected as another victim of the war on terror, a cruel loss of innocence on 9/11. But legality is something that he needs to cover his ass about, hence the retroactive immunity he seeks. Whether any retroactive immunity would have any standing in a national or international court of law is another question. If you sought immunity after the fact, that seems to be pretty damning evidence you knew it was illegal when you were doing it.

    The shameless part of the torture question is that Bush (and Rove and Cheney) think it’s pretty smart politics to be doing something they know the Dems would have a much harder time doing. That Dems and other Bush opponents are squeamish about torture only proves, in Bush’s mind, that he’s better at defending the nation. It also seems to be the reason that Bush needs to have an overwhelming military victory in Iraq, because by now he’s killed off any chances of a more peaceful solution through his Rambo ways. Of course Rummy’s f’ed-up that happening pretty much which leaves us at our present no-win situation.

  • The guy is mentally ill.
    It is all going to come out in the future.

    I bet my entire net worth on it….

    Comment by koreyel —

    I remember the Carla Faye Tucker story and Bush did seem to take pleasure in her execution. So the guy is a psycho trying to cover his ass.

  • There’s also the wimp factor to consider. It seems to apply in a couple of ways. One is that the members of the Bushwhackjobs are afraid of their own wimpiness–especially the chickenhawks among them. What could be more “macho” than torturing to them.

    The second way the wimp factor seems to apply is that the Bushes always thought the liberals running the country (which relative to their rightwingness covers most past presidents), were wimpy and wouldn’t do what it takes.

    They think they can intimdate the world with torture as a tool, but torture is more common than not torturing — witness the condition of most bodies found in Iraq. It just reduces us.

    Practically speaking the US tortured a lot of people during Vietnam directly and through proxies. I’m sure Nixon and Reagon gave their CIA the green light on torture in South America. So I guess the more realistic thing to say is that the US is in the closet on torture. And Bush has outed himself.

    Need a book: None Dare Call It Torture.

  • It’s not about whether Bush is not determined to engage in torture. Bush has repeatedly stated that “We do not torture.” Whether you believe him or not, it doesn’t mean that he hasn’t authorized torture in the recent past, or that torture continues to occur in secret CIA prisons far from the eyes of congress or human rights organizations. Bush is acting like a desperate criminal, seeking a retroactive law that would make it difficult to impeach him or prosecute him for his war crimes.

  • These guys would make wonderful tyrants in some non-democratic country that would bring a tear to Saddam’s eye.

  • I am really surprised at all of the long posts on this thread. Y’all give Shrubbie too much credit. Koryel at #26 comes closest. My immediate reaction upon reading the title question was simple:

    because he’s one sick f*cking SOB.

    looking any deeper than that is a waste of time and effort, casting pearls about a swine.

  • Why do wife-beaters beat?

    Why do rapists rape?

    Its not about the anger.

    Its not about the sex.

    It is about the power.

  • I think it’s two things, and they have to do with Bush’s three core traits as a public figure:

    1) Weakness
    2) Laziness
    3) Total lack of concern with precedent or process

    Weakness because when some really twisted fiend like Cheney or Ezra’s hypothetical CIA goon tells him a compelling story about the value of torture, he just buys it.

    Laziness because the truth is, it’s a lot harder to conduct real intelligence-gathering, work in coordination with the international community, and use “soft power” assets to change the global context than to just rip out fingernails.

    And the last because the whole idea of our national greatness being founded on Enlightenment principles and sustained by due process under the laws is totally lost on this pathetic worm of a human being. Just as Bush couldn’t have cared less when the capital punishment rate of his state earned him the nickname “Texecutioner”–even while everyone knew that sleeping defense lawyers, tainted evidence and all other manner of procedural screwups led to some of the sentences–it doesn’t bother him in the slightest that we’re about to re-enact the Moscow Show Trials with our very own enemies of the state.

    Even from a law-and-order/vengeance standpoint, this is total idiocy–because the torture should mean you don’t get to kill the terrorists.

  • I believe Shrub wants Congressional approval on torture so he can tell the public that he didn’t do anything that Congress didn’t approve. There will undoubtedly be countless investigations after the Armageddon Administration is out of office and they are trying to cover their asses for what they have already done. Some of the detainees they are holding can’t even be tried by our Christo-fascist government if they can’t use information obtained under torture or “secret evidence” at the alleged “trial”.

  • They need to make torture legal because they are worried they will be prosecuted for war crimes. And it needs to get done by election day because they are going to lose the majority and the investigatons will begin.

    Fear. It’s the only motivation these guys understand.

  • Krugman is right, but he’s only part right.

    There’s probably a few reasons why this is a major policy, but I’m only going to focus on one thing here. Let’s give these guys the fairest reading possible (that is, the guys who do support torture). Let’s say, as the evidence says, that torture doesn’t often, or doesn’t nearly usually, produce a reliable result. But what happens when you’ve been interrogating someone for a while, and nothing else produces any result?
    Then, what happens if this one guy you have is the one guy who you know knows the details of a bunch of criminals’ impending attack. This is the only way you’re going to be able to find out about it. Maybe one out of every four times you’re in this situation, torturing the person gets him to say something. And maybe one out of every four times in that situation the person says something, it’s something useful.

    When the stakes are so high, and when you add in that maybe the torturers don’t care about people of the race of the person they’re torturing, it’s kind of easy to see from this hypothetical how some people can support torture, if the hypothetical is accurate. So torture is one more thing to try.

    I don’t know why conservatives don’t say it like that when they talk about torture. Maybe they’re afraid that liberals are going to just say it’s wrong anyway. When this is the rationalization, though, torture is about cruelty for cruelty’s sake. It comes down to whether you want to say it’s just wrong anyway, or if you think we can stop terrorists with just having smart people do law enforcement and having smart work, so that doing things like that just isn’t necessary.

    Yeah, I think there’s more to it than that. Yeah, I think there may be really bad motives, as is often true. But if liberals are going to debate people on this one, be able to talk about how the situation where torture really can help is not likely to occur but we don’t know that people aren’t going to employ torture to a wanton degree, against many many persons. And that’s not worth the cost.

  • Bush, literalist of fantasy, that he is, probably thinks torture works like it does on “24”, the tv show about an anti-terrorist agent who often stoops to torture. The info Jack Bauer gets is THE prime piece of info about some world-shattering attack. But most interrogations, at best, get clues or hints that they piece together with other clues and hints over a period of time that may or may not help them prevent an attack. They have to weed out the misinfo and do a lot of interpretation and guesswork. They don’t get, “The bomb is planted under the Senator’s “little Guatemalan gardener’s” work van and is set to go off in three minutes.” What they get is hardly worth selling out the country’s integrity for.

    The thing about torture is that no one ever believes that you’re the wrong guy.

  • I’m with those above who said Bush loves torture because he’s psycho. I’d add as evidence his seeming pleasure in the 2003 (?) state of the union when he referred mysteriously to some terrorists who weren’t with us anymore–could have been a creep in a horror movie gloating over dispensing with his last victim. Or how about brother Jeb (according to Kitty Kelly) saying he made the little brothers undress, told them to count to ten and run, and then shot them with a beebee gun–and according to Jeb it was terrifying. Or how about the remark about the daughter with appendicitis. Or assaulting the opponent on the court, in what was it, a tennis match? Look at the way he bullies reporters in press conferences. He’s a freak. He takes pleasure in other people’s pain.

  • Just to add to what Zeitgeist said in comment #35. At this point discussion of Bush’s inner child and why the torture is happening seems purely academic. I think it would be a better use of time to get the torture stopped first, we can have the “why” discussion afterward.

  • My take is that he is trying to create more enemies of the US so as to engender greater fear here so that he can manipulate public opinion more easily and with a compliant msm he might still very much succeed (note that almost everything he has done after 9/11, such as invading Iraq which I am sure he knew would create more terrorism and I am sure the lack of sufficient troops and the disbanding of the Iraqi army were not just dumb mistakes) – I am almost sure some terrorist attack will take place or be narrowly averted (maybe with some so called “information from torture”) just before election time.

  • A lot of good answers here, and my thoughts are reflected in few of the comments.

    First, yes, there is a significant CYA component to this fight. Bush wants a bill that forgives past crimes (the bill is retroactive to 9/11/01) covertly, by pretending that he needs the “agressive techniques” in the future. That’s why he’s been so resistant to compromise – if you remove “waterboarding” from the list of future tools, you also fail to make it legal in the past.

    On the larger issue of “How did we get into this mess?”, the Bush Administration’s view of how to fight terror reminds me of Barbarian hordes, or that great line about Keyser Soze (“and then, he showed the ‘men of will’ what Will was”). They truly seem to believe that we can create a reputation so fierce that our enemies will back down. Fighting terror, like every conflict in their dystopian, zero-sum, testosterone-poisoned worldview, is a “battle of wills” where winning is everything.

    Of course, they’re wrong, because they fundamentally misunderstand not only “the evildoers” but also the world itself. Even worse, they cannot create this “Vlad the Impaler” reputation without damaging the very essence of American ideals.

    I see lots of posts in the blogs about how this is a ginned-up conflict – I don’t think so. This was supposed to be an electoral cudgel used on Democrats, not an intra-party struggle. They may be able to salvage it by turning it into a bit of Kabuki (and Kristol tried to put lipstick on that pig yesterday), but I don’t see it working very well.

  • They torture because they will do ANYTHING to make sure there are no more attacks on US soil. Their entire careers at this point are based on their promise that they will keep us safe, and anyone else will not keep us safe. If they are shown to be wrong, everything they’ve been doing the past 5 years will be invalidated and all their arguments nullified.

    Torture may not work, but anything they can do to prevent another attack, they’ll do.

  • What if Bush’s rendition/torture policies keeps other countries from cooperating with us on terrorism, just as some countries won’t allow criminal extraditions because the US uses the death penalty? Feeling safer?

  • But I don’t think, they think it is torture if Americans do it because by virture of being American it isn’t torture because Americans don’t torture. If somone else did to our soldiers/citizens what the administration wants to allow the CIA to do those captured, it would be considered torture. However, the very fact that it is Americans doing the doing it is not torture.

    If they don’t think something is torture then to them, they aren’t advocating torture. Whether or not it is torture by 99.999% of the world’s population is completely irrelevant.

  • Wake up, guys, it’s a misdirection play. . .

    Read much lately about the Iraqi civil war? The mounting dead toll of sectarian violence? About warrentless wiretaps? The collapse of the middle class? The long laundry list of other Bush failures?

    Nope, Rove has yet again snookered the MSM and the liberal bloggers into focusing on a issue the average citizen doesn’t really care about with a perfect 5 second sound bite, “I just want more clarity. . .”

    It’s all about the November elections. . .

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