Jesus Camp

these evangelicals, anyway. There are lots of good folks who treat their kids wonderfully and are evangelical.

I know I’m going to be left behind come the rapture. Can I have Jerry Falwell’s car?

I’ve been hollering for ages about the dangers presented by out of control religious zealotry in this country (which does *not* include all evengelicals by any means), and if this film doesn’t wake up the slumbering masses I don’t know what will.

This is just wrong, and people had better start standing up and saying so out loud in public or we’re going to be seeing a lot more of it in the days to come.

Read reviews of this sickening documentary film: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/jesus_camp/

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.” — Book of Matthew, somewhere in Chapter 7

And how is this different than say, Osama bin Laden’s Boot Camp for Allah? Oh, they aren’t being trained to use weapons. Whew, that’s a relief.

Lay down their lives? Really? Where? Seriously, I was raised RC (sort of) and this makes me a little nervous in addition to a lot nauseous. The Christofascists don’t like Catholics. Actually, that’s putting it mildly. They think Catholics are satan’s little helpers. When little Timmy decides to “lay down his life” for his fucked up version of God I hope he does it under a truck, not some gathering of “sinners”.

Also, why do I, a person who goes to Mass perhaps twice a year, see shit like this and get the feeling that I am the only one who has actually opened a fricking Bible? Where in the New Testament are these people getting all of this warrior talk? There must be some special edition of the Bible that only they get. One where Jesus says if someone slaps you on one cheek, kick him in the balls and burns his house down. Bastards.

Where’s the Kool-Aid?

Sometimes I think I wouldn’t have a problem with all the Hate-as-religion types on either side if they would find someplace to kill each other and leave the rest of us out of it.

Only the Onion seems to have a sense of how it’s supposed to work.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28151

Did I miss something? When did Christianity become a cult?

If these children are our future, we’re doomed.

It is not uncommon in fundamentalist groups for people to linger over thoughts of martyrdom. I had a fundy friend who obesessively talked about what would happen if God called him to Africa where they torture Christians and how if that’s what God wanted him to do, he was ready. He told me how the torture worked, too. He was obsessed with it.

His mindset was not that much different from a suicide bomber, I suppose.

et, many of the same folks would foam at the mouths about the Madrassas in Pakistan….Dan

KIDS ON FIRE CAMPER (MALE)

You know, a lot of people die for God and stuff. And they’re not even afraid.

KIDS ON FIRE CAMPER (FEMALE)

We’re kind of being trained to be warriors only in a much funner way.

Dan has it exactly right. I see no difference between this and what some of the radical Muslims do to indoctrinate their young. I would guess that the young boy’s reference to those who die for god is, in fact, to Muslim suicide bombers. This raises the question of whether the camp organizers hold out Muslim suicide bombers as example to be followed.

Zeitgeist –

Lamb and Lynx?? And of course it comes from good old Bakersfield, the city that Fresno makes fun of.

I weep for our future.

Aw, you beat me to it, Vladi—I was thinking “HitlerYungen” from the get-go. But here’s the scary part—what happens when these champing-at-the-bit fanatics who are ready to “die for Jee-zuz” get old enough to start taking firearms-training courses? Just what the world needs—gun-toting proselytizers with a “join-or-die” mindset….

OK, the first mistake was watching ABC news. They clearly got the Bush thing wrong.

The kids are not worshiping George Bush. Christians are expected to pray for those in authority. The kids are praying for George Bush not to George Bush. They are also laying on hands as they pray. I have never seen this done to a cardboard cut out, but it is simply a display of their desire for George Bush to know and do God’s will.

I would like to invite you to seriously consider something. See if you can find one evangelical and talk to them. There are 80 million so surely there could be one close to you. Most of us ( full disclosure) have two things we agree on. Love God with all your heard and love your neighbor as yourself. And, share what has been freely given to us through Jesus to the world.

Jerry, exactly how are kids as young as those seen on the video expected to differentiate between praying for W and to W? Putting a cardboard cutout of W in front of a bunch of kids is just like putting a golden calf in front of them: they will do as they are told and absorb the images along the way. Camps like this are Christian madrassas. Nothing more, nothing less.

“Because they are teaching that there are clear cut right and wrong answers to social issues based on Scripture?” Jerry

Jerry, please get this straight –they are teaching their interpretation of scripture. Society has evolved moral codes over 10s of thousands of years. We don’t need to have a religous society shoving their brand down our throats as the only course just because they claim it is the only true one as handed down to them by the writers of the Moses myth. You can lock your mind in your scriptural prison, but why not give the kids a chance to think for themselves before brain washing them with such indoctrination?

Hi lou,

It is true that moral codes have been evolving over thousands of years. Most of them were originally based on one religious belief system or another. Some of those belief systems are still with us. Those belief systems are still evolving today.

We see this evolution in formal church denominations, invalid or irrelevant ideas pass away as they fail to meet the needs of the society. In the last 25 years there has been a dramatic decrease in the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopalian denominations. Other denominations continue to grow like the Baptist, non-denominational, and Pentecostal Churches. It is simple evolution, survival of the strongest ideas.

By “such indoctrination”, do you mean religious or social indoctrination?

I seem to recall that we have a right to freedom of religion, so the government does not get to make religious decisions for us. I think you would agree that that is a good thing. So, as individuals and as parents, we have got to decide what is best for our children. What looks like indoctrination to you may not look like that to others.

Social indroctination is going on all of the time for all of us. Why should the parents not be allowed to say, “this is legal but I believe it is wrong and these are the reasons?”

If you have children, have you ever shared what you believe about a subject or do you just let them decide for themselves?

As for my scriptural prison, I am totally free to do as I please. It is called believers freedom.

Looks like Christian persecution is just around the corner. You people think if someone disapproves of the gay lifestyle, or opposes abortion, that the threat to your freedom is insurmountable. Youthcamps have been operated in this manner for 100+ years: they just haven’t been documented in such a manner. The people that attended these youthcamps 10-20-30 years ago are now your respected co-workers. Some of the people on this blog are simply Christian haters, thinking that Chrisians are a greater threat to society than are radical muslims. Where, or when during the film did anyone incite young people to strap on suicide bombs or kill others. It doesn’t happen. Someone is intentionally misrepresenting the film when they say the kids worship GWB. It does not happen. Someone is lying about that. Some just can’t handle or accept that Christians live freely in this culture.

I was going to chime in about the need to remain objective, but I see that we’ve already been paid a visit by someone who noticed that many have jumped the gun on the cardboard cutout of Bush.

The debate as to what constitutes a “graven image” aside, I don’t believe these children were praying to Bush. In fact, I know they were not having been raised in an environment like that myself. This is what’s known as the “laying on of hands” although I don’t recall having done this to a cardboard cutout and it does remind me of the rather seedier underbelly of Christian Evangelism (e.g.: faith “healers” that have you draw an outline of your hand and send it in so they can lay hands on it).

I must remind you that religious people are very single-minded and it only takes one mistake, omission or contradiction to equal a thousand pieces of overwhelming evidence in their minds (remember, they must believe and are threatened with eternal damnation if they do not). When we accuse them of worshipping Bush, and they know that they are not, we lose our opportunity to convey the message that most of what they believe is political and has nothing to do with the message of Jesus Christ. They do not directly worship Bush, but they do get most of their beliefs from political machinations.

And Jerry, remember that most of the commenters here do not come from the same background as you and me and they are not familiar with the rituals common to fundamentalist Christian denominations. For them, the image is incredibly frightening to say the least. Although I am well versed in these practices (even speaking in tongues, believe it or not), I must say that these camps are the perfect compliment to the most radical Muslim organizations and that we are well on our way (if we do not change our direction) to forming what amounts to an “American Taliban”.

As for “right and wrong”, yes you do have the authority and perhaps the responsibility to teach your children the difference. That does not, however, mean that your own concept of right and wrong might not be hopelessly twisted. Jerry, you might sleep easy tonight thinking that you have done a service to those of us at CBR, by sharing what you believe (or should I say “know”?) to be right. But if you take nothing else from this exchange of ideas (for which I thank you and commend you for your courage to come here), know that we are all here because we believe we understand right from wrong and that we are all stressed to the point of sickness at what we perceive to be evil out of control in our country. Worse, this “evil” is calling itself “good”.

Isaiah 5:20:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

My Jesus would not support:

Torture
Military aggression
Assassination
Blatant Lies and manipulation of facts
Judgmentalism
Self-Righteousness
Condemnation
Unforgiveness
Militarism
Greed
Welfare for the already wealthy
Opportunism
Neglect of the poor

This is only a partial list and it seems undeniable to me that this list of “What wouldn’t Jesus Do” is far more compelling than the following list ever was:

* Allow homosexuals to marry and have the same rights of any other American.
* Allow abortion to be legal.
* Allow non-believers to seek God on their own time and his own time.

And notice that none of the above are sins in and of themselves. Most of what we believe is about letting others make their own choices (including you).

I am not gay and yet I feel it would be incredibly arrogant of me to tell someone else what I would or wouldn’t do if I were attracted to other men.

I am not a woman, I’m well beyond the age where abortion would be an option for me, and I doubt very seriously if I’d be comfortable with my wife or girlfriend having an abortion. I don’t like abortions; I want to see less abortions. I just feel that the decision to make it safe and legal didn’t come about as a result of some satanic conspiracy to kill more babies (after all, why would Satan want to kill someone who’s automatically going to heaven?).

As for the freedom to allow people to choose, I would die for your right to worship whoever or whatever you choose. But I have a feeling you would not do the same for me. Remember, Jesus himself was murdered because he didn’t worship and conduct himself in a manner that the religious hypocrites of his era deemed acceptable. Religion and politics conspired to crucify your savior and they are once again conspiring to kill the spirit of kindness, gentleness, tolerance, and forgiveness that Christ embodied.

The irony is that a large percentage of these people are called “Christians”, with those calling themselves “Muslims” making up the vast majority of the rest. Whichever you might be, I believe the hidden objective is the same: you are both out to destroy truth, decency, peace and the world itself by hating, judging and killing one another.

Is it any wonder that there are those of us who want no part of this madness? Is it any wonder that the people who read this blog are angry, frightened and confused over just what all of this means?

Bob, in looking at post #38. I think you missed my point. I was saying that not allowing children to make a decision to follow Christ would be wrong based on Scripture. I then pointed out that Christ specifically commanded that the children be allowed to come to him.

In post # 40 you wrote, “The leaders are preparing the young Christians for the mass persecution……” This is the way I was taught. Hope that the persecution would not come but be ready to die if that choice had to be made, just as the early Christians did under the Roman law.

JTK, thank you for your thoughtful response. You are incorrect about my willingness to die for your right to believe what you want to believe. I may totally disagree with you but I believe that you have the right to that belief.

Are you saying that, if one day (purely hypothetically for now), the “for us or against us” mindset takes hold of the majority of Christians and, in accord with law and government, begin prosecuting and/or executing “non-believers”, you would stand on our side and/or lay down your life for refusing to renounce your belief that people should be free to choose? Look deep and be honest, Jerry.

I also believe that it is very important that people be allowed to have and express their own opinions and beliefs. You can express yours and I can express mine and neither of us should be angry even if we disagree.

Would you not be angry at liberals if they institutionalized atheism? Before you exclaim “they already have”, remember that atheism and evolution are not mutually inclusive. For me, the overwhelming complexity and staggering chronology over which evolution takes place is testament to the awesome nature of supreme intelligence. I am not alone in this opinion.

Would you not be angry if your children were forced to lay prostrate toward Mecca in prayer to Allah in the public Schools? Or even just encouraged to participate in a Shinto prayer to a pagan deity?

If you are willing to make that assertion, you are among a silent minority of Christians who have made it one of their lives’ work to see to it that Christianity is “restored” to American classrooms by institutionalizing (coercing and/or encouraging) their religion and adding an unprovable, unresearchable non-science to public school curriculums (creationism).

And while you lament over what you consider a Satanic conspiracy (forgive me if I’m being presumptuous again) to remove God from the institutions that teach your children, remember that a belief in the scientific basis for evolution does not preclude someone from a belief in divine order but may actually enhance it.

Also, remember that “one nation under God” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance on Flag Day in 1954 during the height of the cold war against what was considered a “godless” enemy. The wall between the church and state is real. Indeed, your own variant of Christianity would never have been able to flourish were it not for this deliberate construct.

Since as you mentioned, many on this blog may not have the background we have, I would like to touch on judging others. This is really a touchy subject. I suspect that most non believers think Christians and especially evangelicals are primarily interested in judging others.

The biggest mistake that most religious fundamentalists make (regardless of their religion, sect or denomination) is in separating the “believers” from the “non-believers”. Later in your post, you clearly put people in one of these 2 groups. The problem is that no 2 people have the same beliefs; even the person who will sit next to you on the pew (or folding chair) next Sunday morning. The number of beliefs that are becoming more an more homogeneous among Christian Fundamentalist (a form of Christianity defined, like any other, by those beliefs) far exceed the information contained in the Bible. You may stand firm on the belief that the Bible is the source in totality of your beliefs, but there’s far more to it than that. I suggest you take stock the next time you enter a Christian bookstore at the sheer volume of “belief” that exists in addition to the Bible.

If this is the only judgment you ever pass, it is judgment, nonetheless.

In fact we see the world divided into two realms consisting of believers and non believers. Non believers are not to be held to the same standards as believers, simply because they are non believers. They have not entered into an agreement with God so how can they be judged as a believer is judged? As far as I know a non believer should be loved, and told about God’s grace.

… and there you go. You may say that you yield fully to God’s judgment on who the “believers” are and who the “non-believers” are, and pass none of your own, but I offer you this simple test:

Which one am I? What about Carlton Pearson?

At some point all evangelicals want to see people become believers. Once someone converts to Christianity, they begin a lifelong struggle to be as Christ-like as they can. All of us stumble and fall and a fellow Christian may point out our errors. But even then judgment is something that should be undertook in the most loving and caring way. I know that this is not always the way things happen but it is the goal.

Expecting everyone (or even half the world population, for that matter) to convert is just as naive for you as it is for Osama Bin Laden to “invite” you to convert to Islam. It’s not going to happen, ever. Maybe this won’t frustrate you to the point of taking more drastic measures, but as the number of moderate Christians (of which I’ll assume you are one based on your claims) grows, so too does the number of radical Christians. By virtue of the latter’s very nature, their voices will overpower yours (just as the voices and desires of the most radical Muslims have overshadowed the millions of Muslims who just want to live and let live). When this happens (not “if”), and you should decide that they’ve gone too far, it will be too late.

As for being “Christlike”, I find it very hard to swallow that anyone who would vote for the current administration (which supports torture, illegal waging of wars, fabrications to justify the latter, giving more money to the filthy rich at the expense of the poor, a president who mocks a Christianity-converted death-row inmate before gleefully putting her to death… and on and on and on), is behaving in a Christlike fashion.

Beyond the political (forgive me; but this is a political forum), I certainly don’t believe those children weilding swords and wearing camouflage and fatigues are being taught anything resembling “Christlikeness”. Quite to the contrary, IMO.

As for Christians being like Muslims, and being “out to destroy truth decency, peace and the world itself by hating, judging and killing one another” I need some examples. In the last let’s say 56 years when has an American Christian murdered innocent people because they did not agree with the Christian’s political or religious point of view. There is no parallel unless you have an understanding of which I am not aware.

Before I take your bait and begin listing the people who have killed in the name of Jesus, let me make a prediction. The answer is moot because you will simply assert that these people are not true Christians. While you’re preparing that defense, always remember the Muslims who would defend their own faith using the very same logic.

The most obvious that come to mind are Eric Rudolph and James Kopp but the Christian Identity Movement and “The Lambs of Christ” count among their members more than just Rudolph and Kopp.

I didn’t anticipate the vastness of data that would turn up when I began researching my assumption (that killing and violence in the name of Christ is very real even today) so I will provide a couple of links to what is too varied and incalculable a subject for me to go into here:

Killings for Christianity
Modern killings for Christianity
Christian extremist terrorism

I find it interesting that you limit the evidence to the last 56 years (although that has proven to be no impediment); about the time Billy Graham’s ministry began. I’m curious as to exactly what and when you attribute the origin of your form of Christianity (which I will assume to be in the Charismatic vein). Based on my own experience and knowledge, I’d say 56 years is about right.

Again, you and the vast majority of Christians will condemn these individuals and their organizations. But as your numbers grow, so too do the numbers of radicals. This phenomena is just as true of Christianity as it is of Islam (although anyone can see that Islam is far more “advanced”; I find it obvious that Christianity is catching up, though).

In fact, that brings us back ’round full circle to the subject of this thread. The video clearly demonstrates that there are those who believe Christians should be just as prepared to fight and die as the most extreme radical Muslims:

This means war. I wanna see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan, in Israel and Palestine and all those different places. –BECKY FISCHER

You may go to your grave “agreeing to disagree” with me, but it should be no wonder to you why those of us without affiliation to any specific religion, sect or denomination, are so frightened at the prospect of being “caught in the middle” of a war between religious extremes.

Once again, thank you for listening to someone with a view different than your own.

Likewise, Jerry. May God be with you and with all of us.

Looks like Christian persecution is just around the corner. You people think if someone disapproves of the gay lifestyle, or opposes abortion, that the threat to your freedom is insurmountable.

Disapproval of the gay lifestyle is not an issue. What is an issue is taking steps to write laws which persecute people who happen to be gay. What if Catholicism was the state religion and you were told that you could not visit the most important person in your life on her deathbed because the state refused to recognize a marriage performed by, for example, a Pentecostal (replace ‘Pentecostal’ with whatever denomination is applicable) minister?

As strange as a physical attraction to one’s own sex might seem to you and me, it happens in nature, it’s obvious that gay people are different long before they develop sexually, and it makes no sense that a person would choose to subject themselves to taunting, ridicule and condemnation (“persecution”, anybody?). There’s not one shred of evidence aside from the faith of millions of blindly obedient religious zealots (Muslims and Jews included), to suggest it isn’t every bit as chemical as any other form of sexual ambiguity. It blows my mind that it’s the only thing that all three of the major world religions seem to agree on.

On the topic of abortion, let’s get one thing straight once and for all: nobody is “pro-abortion”. Abortion is one of life’s ugly realities (as are still birth, poverty and rape). It doesn’t matter that you “oppose abortion”. So do I! What does matter is that you’ve allowed politicians over the last 30 years to manipulate you to the point where you believe overturning Roe vs. Wade is the most important objective in a Christian’s life. Look at my earlier post if you need a reminder of all the disgusting sins that come packaged with the leaders “Christians” tend to choose based on little more than these 2 issues.

Abortion is ugly, homosexuality is difficult to understand, but to ally yourselves with liars, thieves, bullies, warmongers, propagandists, white supremacists, flag (“idol”) worshippers and the rest of the scum that have been cobbled together by the neo-conservative political machine, seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, doesn’t it?

In fact, I wonder if we shouldn’t sacrifice those 2 precious issues for the sake of saving our nation and our collective souls. As much as I would hate to see the rise in violence against gays that would surely result from a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage (as this would empower the already aggressive anti-gay lot), and the return of back-alley abortions, I am simply at my wits end as to what to do about the growing numbers of people ignoring the moral, political and economic decay of America. Too many people have been completely brainwashed and blinded by these 2 hot-button issues.

On the other hand, a part of me thinks this might expose the right for what it really is, a delicate mishmash of narcissists and scoundrels who could never really live with anyone besides themselves. I.e.: remove the gays and abortion doctors, and they’ll just move on to Muslims and Pagans, remove the Muslims and Pagans, and they’ll move on to the atheists, remove all the atheists, and they’ll move on to the Communists, remove all the Communists and they’ll move on to the Socialists, remove all the Socialists and they’ll move on to Democrats, remove all the Democrats, and they’ll move on to Liberals in general, remove all the Liberals and they’ll move on to the Catholics, remove all the Catholics…

…fast forward through all the Christian sects and denominations in order of least popular/least aggressive to most popular/most aggressive… until nothing is left but a rabid cult with the Antichrist at its head.

BTW, I don’t lump you (or Jerry) in with the scoundrels but rather consider you victims of their political machinations. When I was a fundamentalist “Christian”, I had the best of intentions, so I would not write you off as hopeless fools any more than I would have wanted someone to write me off when I was (honestly) searching for life’s meaning.

Youthcamps have been operated in this manner for 100+ years: they just haven’t been documented in such a manner.

Speak for yourself. I attended a Nazarine youth camp as a child, and I never saw anything quite like this. But for those who have attended Fundamentalist churches for 25 years or more, I suppose it is like the boiling frog: You wouldn’t notice the dramatic progression like someone who’s been away from the movement for 16 years.

Some of the people on this blog are simply Christian haters, thinking that Chrisians are a greater threat to society than are radical muslims.

Sometimes I wonder whether or not I’ve gone down the wrong path, then someone makes a statement like the one above, and all doubt is removed.

For the record (and if anyone else agrees/disagrees, chime in), I think that radical Islam is the greatest threat to world peace right now. Educate yourself before making completely absurd statements like that.

Let me use another metaphor: which do I think is a worse threat to my house: fire or gasoline? Why, fire of course. And when there’s a fire in my kitchen, don’t come into my house with a barrel of gasoline, and then accuse me of hating gasoline when I ask you to leave.

For now, radical Islam is the fire and radical Christianity is the gasoline (not to mention the Pope’s recent contribution to this inferno). What we’d like to prevent is a “fire in the West” burning with the same intensity as that in the Middle East.

As for any perceived hatred of Christians, I would consider myself christian (in that I adhere to the principles taught to me through the lessons of Christ). I certainly don’t feel hated here. I would not be here if I didn’t feel I was in the company of an unusually tolerant and level-headed bunch of folks.

Having said that, it is impossible for many here to understand the depth to which you, Jerry and the millions of other fundamentalist Christians are committed to what you believe. Many of them think that they can make a few jokes about how insane blind “belief” and obedience really are and you’ll “come around”; that intelligence and truth will win out in the end.

I do understand, however, that when one is indoctrinated into a belief system early enough, it is almost impossible to shake it (this is true of Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Pagans, Scientologists etc.). Exposing the lie has been a long, hard task for me and I will never be completely free of the fear of eternal torture so dutifully grafted onto my conscience by my father.

In short, what you may perceive as “hatred” toward your beliefs is only a manifestation of fear of the unknown. You know, like the fear you have when you hear some radicalized Muslim go on about “infidels” and the prophet Muhammed. It’s just “weird”.

Where, or when during the film did anyone incite young people to strap on suicide bombs or kill others.

Nobody said they did. But this statement is a good start in that direction:

This means war. I wanna see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan, in Israel and Palestine and all those different places. –BECKY FISCHER

That kind of talk sends a chill down my spine because these are the people I grew up with, not some bizarre religious cult in a far-away land.

Someone is intentionally misrepresenting the film when they say the kids worship GWB. It does not happen.

No, it doesn’t. Liberals are guilty of jumping to conclusions and overdramatizing too. But, assuming that I’m right about people who are unfamiliar with what you and I have been exposed to for most of our lives, it’s understandable why people might jump to that conclusion. After all, since the Reagan administration, voting Republican has been part and parcel to being a “good” fundamentalist Christian.

I believe that Christianity has been hijacked and used as a tool for a political movement motivated by greed and power. So, whether the children are worshipping or merely laying hands on President Bush, it does indeed represent a disturbing moment in our culture.

I regret when mistakes like this are made as they only reinforce your incorrect belief that your are being persecuted.

Someone is lying about that. Some just can’t handle or accept that Christians live freely in this culture.

The New Testament was written during a time when Christians were persecuted as Christianity was a strange religion in a land that had been Pagan for centuries. However, the Bible is presented to you as though it is all happening right now; that the antichrist is yet to come and ‘666’ isn’t simply a numerical representation of Nero written at a time when speaking against him would get you killed pretty quickly.

It is for this reason that Christians have needed to stretch the definition of “persecution” to comical proportions. I’m reminded of the “War on Christians Conference” with the marquee of a ritzy hotel that read “Welcome Oppressed Christians”. If the irony is lost on you, you might be too far gone.

Relax, you represent 80% of the population of America, Christian music sales are up, you’ve got mainstream movies (like March of the Penguins and The Passion of the Christ), pop stars wearing “Jesus is my Homeboy” shirts and thanking God at every Grammy awards ceremony.

Conservatives control all branches of our government now (for better or worse, I might remind you) and… Jesus camps!

There are no Antichristian camps that I am aware of.

Moreover, I for one, welcome your thoughts, opinions and presence on this forum and respect you for your courageous comments (and I’m confident that I am not alone among my blogmates).

Peace be with you, my friend.

I too am a Christian and I too have just watched the trailer for “Jesus Camp”. I too found it quite un-nerving. I have not seen the movie yet- but I shall tomorrow as it is playing now. Initially, what scares me about this movie is not the idea of training children concerning Jesus or what the world might think of this…but the theology the children are apparently being trained with. They are apparently being trained to attempt to change society….not by being representatives of God on Earth by being the “Church”- but rather by overtaking the political structures AKA the World. I wrote earlier today at length on this concept- which I also believe will answer a few of the questions posed here.

Consider this:

The Church and the State (or nation-states) are in many ways incompatible. States are part of the world and its value systems and the Church’s business is none other than to be the CHURCH…not to run the world….not to assist God in directing human history. The Church and “civilization” (the World) are (or are supposed to be) two mutually exclusive entities. Human civilization and the Kingdom of God are not synonymous.
On Romans 13 which is popularly taken out of context with Romans 12 and the rest of the Bible is understood by Christians in different ways. As noted in the study helps of my life application study Bible:
“All Christians agree that we are to live at peace with the state as long as the state allows us to live by our religious convictions. For hundreds of years, however, there have been at least three interpretations of how we are to do this:

(1) Some Christians believe that the state is so corrupt that Christians should have as little to do with it as possible. Although they should be good citizens as long as they can do so without compromising their beliefs, they should not work for the government, vote in elections, or serve in the military.

(2) Others believe that God has given the state authority in certain areas and the church authority in others. Christians can be loyal to both and can work for either. They should not, however, confuse the two. In this view, church and state are concerned with two totally different spheres–the spiritual and the physical–and thus complement each other but do not work together.

(3) Still others believe that Christians have a responsibility to make the state better. They can do this politically, by electing Christian or other high-principled leaders. They can also do this morally, by serving as an influence for good in society. In this view, church and state ideally work together for the good of all.

None of these views advocate rebelling against or refusing to obey the government’s laws or regulations unless those laws clearly require you to violate the moral standards revealed by God. Wherever we find ourselves, we must be responsible citizens, as well as responsible Christians.”

For a clearer understanding of what Romans 13 actually means- read the book of Habbakuk and notice how God “orders” nation-states. It will give you a a clearer than ever view of how God “orders” nations and punishes them…yet the wickedness in the world is not authored by God or from his will…it is from our own freewill, pride and selfishness that brings about the consequences …God just permits and sometimes punishes.
Habbakuk will help you understand how on the one hand we are to not love the world or anything in it…and at the same time be at peace with the way God is handling human history…and trust him that even if the wicked prosper now…they will not escape justice….all we have to do is TRUST and leave vengeance to him…and stand for Truth and right….fully prepared to pay the cost even unto death… A nation that rises to power does not necessarily have God’s approval

It is popular right now to refer to the conflicts in the Middle East as clashes between “Christian Civilization” and “Islamic Civilization” which is simply in error. “Christian Civilization” is rightly labeled as a myth- especially since the death and ressurrection and redemptive work of Christ.
To paraphrase at length Dr. Lee Camp, author of “Mere Discipleship” which I simply insist you must read:
The Constantinian cataract, the viewing of the world through the lens of the unscriptural and ill advised blending of church and empire, distorts our vision so that we believe the power brokers, the emperors, and the mighty that use force to control human history. Believing that WE must make “things turn out right”, we seek to get hold of such power for the purposes of the “good” and the “right” and even God. In “Christendom”, the unscriptural and ill advised blending of church and empire, we try to employ the methods of the rebellious principalities and powers to defeat them at their own game.
However, one thing that all Scriptures make very clear is that: the principalities and powers of this world, the kings and princes and queens and presidents- they do not run the world, though they assume so. It is not nation-states that run the world or determine the real meaning and purpose of history, but God. It is not the power structures of the World or the nation-states that after all do not follow the edicts of Christ- but the faithful people of God who are most important on the stage of history. It is not those with wordly might, but the obedient, despised minority whom God chooses to be a light to the nations. We will not “make a difference in the real world” by trying to beat the powers at their own game; we will not “make a positive contribution to culture” or “exercise responsibility” by playing games on the principalities’ terms. Instead we, as Christians, are called to be a people walking in faithful discipleship to the Way of Christ, and thereby to be the salt and light the rebellious world so desperately needs. It is not through the might of nations that you are to be a light- but through being the faithful people of God and living by example.
I believe that this speaks directly to this quote from an article I recently read elsewhere concerning the “clash of civilizations” thesis concerning the conflicts in the Middle East:

“For a religion to serve as the basis of a culture, it must seek to preserve peace but also be willing to use force. All major religions tend toward this mean.”

When the Church insists upon adjusting itself to the ways of the World, the “church” itself may end up being the greatest threat to Christian faith- because it ends up offering a substitute for the Gospel. When the “church” presents to the world a second rate counterfeit, rather than the real thing, the original gets discredited. By playing at “religion”, rather than walking in adherence to the Way of Christ, the Church becomes its own worst enemy.
In other words, a “cultural Christianity”, in which many people ascribe to the “Christian Faith”, but few walk in true discipleship, SHOWING the world what God created the world to be- this is APOSTASY. Apostasy then will not come about by everyone openly renouncing Christianity- but by many people assuming the name “Christian” without being doers, and followers of Christ’s teachings- by being admirers of Christ, but not true disciples.

The Church is often referred to as the BODY of Christ- which points us to what the identity of the Church is intended to be. The Church is called to be no less than a community that continues to incarnate (to embody) the will of God. The Church is then, much more than just doing religion or government right. Being the Church means embodying God’s intentions for the world as revealed in Christ. Church is not about showing the world how to be “religious”- but SHOWING the World how it is supposed to be a world that reflects the intentions of its Creator. In juxtaposition to the Creator’s design, the World schools us in self- preservation, self- maximization and self- realization; the World trains us to live and die, kill and wage war for the “free market economy”, “our way of life”, “freedom”, “democracy” and/or lifestyle. But, imagine the radical implications of a community, a Church, that refuses to bow to such systematic indoctrination in self-preservation and instead internalizes the knowledge that these are things that are of the old order, the stoichea, the powers, works of the flesh that have been defeated with Christs crucifixion and are even now passing away.
The problem then of human conflict is not rooted in religious legalism or law but in the reality of slavery to sin, a lingering submission to the power of evil that is simultaneously personal and social, individual and communal….lust, greed, selfishness and fear of death…all things that true Disciples of Christ are LIBERATED from the bondage of.

The relationship between democracy and Christianity does provide a helpful case study for the moral implications of worship. Christians can on one hand, be grateful for democratic orders. In fact, many of the practices of a democracy are analogous to practices of the Church….for example the right to free speech. Free speech, in a way, respects the practice in which all are allowed to share their insight and perspective. Similarly, the right of the free exercise of religion relates to the freedom entailed in the practice of adult believer baptism. Christians can rightly celebrate the respect shown to individuals in liberal democratic orders, especially over and against the tyranny of despotic regimes.

On the other hand, the Church cannot assume that democracy in the United States or elsewhere is an ultimate value to be preserved at all costs- because there are certain commitments in democratic political orders that stand at great odds with the directives of the Christian faith. For example, in 1990 political commentator George Will gave his approval to a U.S. Supreme Court decision that “freedom of religion” did not permit Native Americans to violate state law against the use of peyote in their religious services. Whether one believes that Native Americans or anyone else ought to use peyote in worship is unimportant here. Will’s central thesis- a forthrightly idolatrous claim- is of great concern…i.e. “A central purpose of Americas political arrangements is the subordination of religion to the political order, meaning the primacy of democracy.”

Will supports this thesis, which speaks directly to the precepts of the “founding fathers'” like Jefferson, by reciting standard mantras of classical, political liberalism: The Founding Fathers wanted to “Tame and domesticate the religious passions of the sort that convulsed Europe. How might such a goal be accomplished? By refusing to establish religion, of course, an instead establishing a commercial republic- a capitalism. They aimed to submerge people’s turbulent energies in self interested pursuit of material comforts.” Religion then, according to this interpretation of John Locke, is to be perfectly free as long as it is perfectly private- mere belief- but it must bend to the political will (law) as it regards conduct.” Thus the realm in which freedom of religion exists is restricted to thought, to belief, to the mind: “Jefferson held that “operations of the mind’ are not subject to legal coercion, but that acts of the body are. Mere belief, Jefferson says, in one god or twenty neither picks one’s pockets or breaks one’s legs.
Whether Will’s interpretation of the “founding fathers,” intentions is accurate or not, such an understanding of democracy is idolatrous. Discipleship is not rooted in mere belief- but in the ultimate authority of God and Christ. To claim that Christ is Lord indeed flies in the face of a constitutional theory that makes “religion” both private and subordinate. What this interpretation does afford us is an opportunity to question whether the Church in America has more often interpreted Christianity through the lens of Western political traditions, rather than interpreting those political traditions through the lens of a biblical worldview. Are we indeed to allow our political traditions to privatize and domesticate our “religious passions”?
Has our own pursuit of economic self interest led us to keep our “religion” in its own socially irrelevant sphere?

The gospel is not merely a “belief system”, giving mental assent to “sound doctrine” so that one might “go to Heaven”. The Gospel calls us to participate in the Kingdom of Heaven, to embody the will of God on Earth, empowered by the Holy spirit to do so. We have been called to participate in the new reign and social order proclaimed and made real by Jesus. This is no “religious passion” that we can domesticate through consumerism.

Simply put, faithfulness to the teaching of the Master is of first importance, everything else is supposed to find its place within the sphere of obedience to the Lord. However, such faithfulness is thought to be naive within the empire. In the empire we are encouraged to give consent to “whatever is necessary” for ‘the good guys” to win….whether it be clusterbombs, nuclear weapons, torture, or pre-emptive wars…to “uphold the good”…

Another fallacy in this “clash of civilizations” thesis we see now regarding the conflicts in the Middle East, is that those who have “professed” Christianity have been essentially innocent since the days of the crusades…and that most of the blame for the current “clash of civilizations” lies with Islam- see these quotes:
————————————————————————————————————————————–
“We have seen the roots of Islamic violence in the life and teachings of Mohammed. We have seen that world events have conspired to place Islam and Christianity in a conflict of civilizations that has stretched from the sixth to the twenty-first century.

What the future holds is unknown. What is known is that Islamic civilization has a strong tendency to violence that stretches back to the days of Mohammed and that has begun to flare up in resurgent terrorist and revolutionary movements.

The conflict with militant Islam may last a long time—centuries, potentially—since even if curing Muslim society of its violent tendencies is possible, it would involve ripping out or otherwise neutralizing a tendency that has dominated Muslim culture since the days of its founder.

This is not an easy task, for Muslims willing to make the change would be portrayed as traitors to their religion, amid renewed calls to practice Islam in its original, pure, and more violent form in order to regain the favor of God. The signs of the times suggest that we are, indeed, in for a “clash of civilizations” that will be neither brief nor bloodless.

But what also is known is that God has a plan for history and that his grace can work miracles. It is yet possible that—through one means or another—God will bring about a more peaceful world in which militant Islam either is not a threat or nowhere near the threat that it is today.

If this is to happen, our cooperation with God’s grace will require prayer, courage, resourcefulness, and a realistic understanding of the threat we are facing. Until then there can be no illusions about Islam and its endless jihad.”
_____________________________________________________________________________

Do not be deceived. The Pope’s recent words of truth concerning how violence is not pleasing to God apply also to so called “Christian civilization” as well as Islam. Both our scriptures and our history books depict the widespread prevalence of sin, injustice, abuse, and domination which are deeply woven into the social fabric of not only the world at large, but America throughout its entire narrative. Though the twentieth century began with waves of unbounded hope- the trust in “progress” soon gave way to disbelief and despair. Technology has allowed us to build bigger and better weapon systems to kill more people, industrialization allowed us to mass produce those weapons as well as the material trappings of the “market driven economy”; mass media allowed the propaganda- driven mobilization and indoctrination of entire populations to both use and defend that technology and industrialization in service of killing their enemies…in contravention of the biblical edict to love enemies and never return evil for evil because vengeance belongs to God.

Hitler’s anti-Semitic Holocaust remains an indescribable horror of our age. But, Paul reminded his Roman readers that they ought not judge others when they thereby condemn themselves: in response to the injustice of others, and in the name of utilitarianism, United States forces likewise decimated Japanese men, women and children in our firebombing of Tokyo and our nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki…We did likewise in Dresden and Hamburg Germany. In our Cold War wake and mindless rush toward mastery and domination we created a world where total destruction by nuclear conflagration is a constant and impending threat right up until this very moment. We napalmed children and innocent adults in Viet Nam to “make the world safe for democracy”. We have created a world in which MAD- mutually assured destruction- is no sci-fi acronym but stated government policy in response to any threatened attack or affront to our idol, democracy. We have held policies toward the Middle East for decades that oscillate between neglect and reactionary bombing… we have exploited the poor and pumped wealth and weaponry into the hands of tyrants and the men we now call enemies throughout the Mediterranean basin…including poison gas, bombs of every sort and all other sorts implements of death and destruction…We have backed Israel unfailingly even when they have also been outside of God’s plan for mankind. In the last decade, according to U.N. estimates, we have contributed to the deaths of at least half a million children in Iraq through sanctions and shock and awe tactics…before “Operation Iraqi Freedom” commenced….and then wax innocent and pious when we recieve blowback in the form of “terrorism”. “Terrorism” being noted as what one does with carbombs as opposed to laser guided bombs and televised “shock and awe” glory.

Someone will undoubtedly tag these assertions as “liberal-America- hating -blasphemy and pie- in -the-sky- touchy-feely- lovey-dovey- denial of realities…. an assertion that I will openly challenge. In the light of the sobering reality of ongoing rebellion to God’s purposes, Christians cannot naively assume that “niceness” will necessarily entail “niceness” in others. The political “realists” are quite right on that score: pacifism is naive if it assumes that it will bring about easy victory over one’s enemies. Christians must realize that walking in the Way of the Cross, may indeed lead to a cross. If you are “nice to people”, the possibility exists that one may be killed. The Way of the Cross is indeed a costly way of dealing with injustice, conflict, and rebellion against the ways of God. It is certainly NOT for the weak of heart. To be a disciple that follows in the non- violent- way- of- Christ that harbors no fear of death in the midst of a culture that thrives on fear and worships domination is no easy work… in the Middle East or the West.
BUT, it is not the true Disciples who naively believe they can cure the world of war. Very often, it is the purveyors of warfare and “peace through superior firepower” who exhibit a utopian trust in the power of violence! Thus, World War 1 was called “the war to end all wars”, wars are always characterized as good versus evil, and America’s most recent campaign has been too often suffused with the rhetoric of “ridding the world of evil,” of “getting rid of terror,” and other such utopian dreams. This is of course nonsense. War IS terror after all.
SOOO, Disciples of Christ, actual followers, refuse to fight wars not because they naively believe they will thus rid the world of war, instead we do not fight because the Kingdom of God HAS come, in which war is banished, in which it is possible to order our lives according to the justice, peace and assurance of the primacy of God.

Wow. This sure has everyone going (me too).
I will admit I’m mostly in the quiet 90% (not 80% by the way) that tries to go about life as I think it should be lived. If someone else has a different outlook, who am I to say, or worse, presume to know, if their choices or my choices are the “right” choices? And this should get things going; I’m one of those homosexuals that is apparently being “opressed.”
Look, I live my life day after day without anyone slamming me with their opinions on the “choice” I made (I agree with an earlier post by the way, why the heck would I choose to be a gay male in this society?) to like other men. In fact, it’s just a small part of who I am. Let me spin it this way; since y’all like members of the opposite sex, I can only assume, from that tiny bit of information that you are going to get divorced, have an affair (or more than one), and be a bad parent to your children. Sounds pretty stupid of me to make radical assumptions based on one small detail, doesn’t it.
Radicalism doesn’t work. I’m happy for those of you that have embraced something more than yourselves; I think we should all strive to do just that, but in our own way. As human beings we are all resistant to things that are not as we see them through our own eyes. When a stranger comes up to you and, without provication, starts telling you what a miserable existence you have and you should be condemned, what is the first reaction you have? Is it to say, “Well, you might be right,” or is it to defend yourself? The only difference in this film, from the clips I’ve seen scattered around the internet, is that now it’s children telling you these things. Who the heck is going to try and have a philosophical debate with a ten year old?
I don’t have a deep quote to end this on; I just wanted to express an opinion in a different light than what I’ve seen here. I’m a simple person, who, like everyone else, strives for their own level of happiness.

Starrider, I just read your piece and I printed it out for my husband to read as well. It was beyond intelligent and very well written. My husband and I are Christian, but extremely moderate. I’m Cristo-pagan, which sounds silly to a bunch of folks, but it is definitely as moderate as I think one can get.

My husband and I talk alot about world happenings and many of the ideas you bring up were ideas we expressed, even the bit about the founding fathers. It was so nice to have all of this well written to print it out!

We live in horror of the things that America does in the name of democracy, knowing that we are just as guilty of forcing this so-called better way of life on other people as we fear others doing.

We have long thought that if this is so much better, why do we have problems within our borders that are not being addressed while we go fight in the name of our superiority?

The only things missing are brown shirts and some marching music.

Stinks of – Nazi Rally – Heil Hitler – Aryan Race – SWASTIKA Flag.

Bush was mentioning Islamofascism – well this is “Christofascism”. This is a nuclear armed fanatic cult worse than al-Qaeda.

I’m responding to comment No. 31 posted by Jerry.

Oh Jerry, do you really expect me to be that naïve?

“Christians are expected to pray for those in authority.” Oh really? Would those kids offer the same kind of prayer for John Kerry? And what about the bit in the movie where the kids took a hammer and broke the tea cups representing “righteous government.” They certainly weren’t smashing cups full of George Bush, and Dick Cheney, and Don Rumsfeld, now were they? Hell no; they were smashing cups full of heathen secularists.

You’re damn right they’re praying to George; they’re praying that he creates an America that is a monoculture of narrow-minded, bigoted, dogmatic Christian citizens.

Other than attempting to clarify the praying to the cardboard facsimile of the smirking chimp, Jerry says nothing about the other things presented in the documentary. Perhaps this means that Jerry tacitly approves of everything else in the film. If that’s the case, and if Jerry represents the typical Evangelical as he/she implies, then there really is no use in talking to other Evangelicals; they’re narrow, absolutist views prohibit meaningful discourse.

One of the things I found to be most disturbing was how the Christian adults in this film were manipulating the children using love, guilt, and shame. Every child looks for and needs to receive love. However, with this brand of Christianity, love is offered with strict conditions and with ulterior motives.

For the child to receive love from church members or their own parents, the child must kneel before the ideology and swallow everything that is forced down their throats. If the child is recalcitrant in doing so, the adults use guilt and shame to debase the child in an effort to get them to come around. This is diabolical, harmful to children, and disgusting behavior by people that are supposed to offer unconditional love to their children.

The ulterior motive for “training” children in this fashion is to create an America populated completely by Evangelical adults and their trainees, i.e., their children. That’s the end goal; that’s the motivation. Even if people like the obese woman in the movie could achieve this hideous Shangri-la, it wouldn’t last very long. It would only be a short while before one group broke off from the whole, and then you’d start down the road of endless sectarian violence that is currently being demonstrated by the Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq.

Perhaps equally as disturbing is the bigoted and racist mindset these fanatical, fundamentalist adults are instilling in their children. It is explicitly stated in the film that the adults need to reach the children by a certain age, because later on in life these notions won’t stick. That’s really great. Here we have a group of people grooming their kids to be hateful and bigoted towards everyone outside of their particular religious bent. Was Jesus really advocating this kind of stuff?

Like many Christian conservatives, the adults in this movie need to read an accurate history text of America. Our country wasn’t founded upon and hasn’t been steeped in a Christian culture where the State is in bed with the Church. Our history is just the opposite. When it comes to governance, our history is one based on secularism. The separation of Church and State is explicitly proclaimed in the Constitution. However, the religious right want to forget about the Constitution, ignore the explicit separation of Church and State, and install a theocracy in every branch of governance. This notion is the very antithesis of why this country was founded.

People came to this country with the benefit of the freedom to practice any brand of religion without having to worry about the State meddling with their particular spirituality. And people came to this country to get away from State-based theocracies where the State was in bed with the clergy and hell bent on crusading. Why on earth would we want to go backwards in time to a situation that we know doesn’t work and is bad for the country?

I know, Jerry, my views aren’t valid. Since I’m not a Christian and my path is not one of conversion, I’m just a tortured guest on earth who is bound for hell. Right, Jerry? If there is no heaven on earth, and the ultimate salvation is found heaven, why not speed up the process, Jerry?

Horatio, we could argue all day about these things; at the end of the day you would still believe what you believe and I would believe what I believe.

However, you did ask, “Was Jesus really advocating this kind of stuff?”

Good question.. Let’s mention a few things Jesus said, since you asked:

Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not turn.

The kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these (children).

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus is the son of God.

Murder is wrong.

Sin leads to death.

You’re either for him or against him.

There is no other way to salvation and everlasting life except through him.

He came here for you.

—

The choice to accept or reject him is yours alone. Everyone has faith in something, what is yours in? Your intellect?

HC, you said “It is our intellect that has given us dominion over the earth, is it not?”

No, the intellect is a function of the soul which encompasses the mind, will and emotions.

The spirit of man, comprised of the conscience, intuition and communion, is where our dominion resides.

All I read here is soulish, mindful, intellect from people who know nothing about the realm of the spirit. Yes, intellect is good and should be strengthened and practiced, but there must be balance. All we have here are people with incredibly bloated heads trying to explain away spiritual things. However, I believe this is an impossible task. Why? Because spiritual things cannot be naturally discerned.

Ever read the scripture that says “knowledge puffs up, but love builds up”? Why do you think Jesus was so hard on the religious folks of the time that had all the knowledge?

The letter kills but the spirit gives life. Check out 2 Corinthians 3

What we have here are people trying to interpret a language they have never learned. Quite frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about!

I wouldn’t ask a blind man to read a book without brail; listening to spiritual discussion from those coming from a purely intellectual vantage point is equally foolish.

As for you HC, I discern through my spirit in communion with the Holy Spirit many things about you. Most prevalent is the root of bitterness in you which will continue to grow and fester until you release the unforgiveness in your heart. Your passion for politics is just another target to spew your bitterness. It is likely this bitterness started in you from an early age, perhaps from a hurtful experience in church or from your natural father. I hate to say it but I see cancer over you and your family as a direct result of this bitterness. The good news? Jesus wills to heal. Let go.

Now, about Jesus. You say you don’t reject him? However, you also say that he is not the only way and that is too “static” of a belief. Well, did he lie when he claimed himself to be the only way? If so, why do you follow him? If someone lied to me about one thing, it would be hard to believe them about anything. So what is it? Are you with him or not with him? Are you hot or cold?

Not many ways to interpret the verse that says “And there is salvation in and through no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we must be saved.”

I’m not here to “convert” you. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. That is, if you let him. That’s the beauty of it – we have free will. The only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and you always have that choice set before you, because your Father loves you. However, we must be careful to not let our mind get in the way of our heart.

You said “And let me be very clear: love and compassion are not the property of any particular deity or religious structure and are available for all to practice.”. Oh yeah, who says? You? Why should I take what you say as truth? Where’s your fruit?

Most of what I’ve seen from you is a long finger pointed at “Fundamentalists”, “Bush” and “religiosity”, etc; you probably don’t even see the hypocrisy.

You make a lot of piercing comments about the people in the film. Do you know them? More importantly, will you give an account for how they raised their kids? Not that it matters much to this discussion but it is worth noting that I know personally one of the families in this film and they are the most giving, loving, living-to-serve-everyone-but-themselves people I have ever known. Who are you to inspect their fruit after watching a few minutes of them in a film?

You talk a lot about guilt and shame. Again, you talk talk talk a lot but you don’t say a whole heck of a lot. These kids are not full of any guilt or shame and their parents are not using guilt and shame to teach them. Could it be that you are simply projecting your own guilt, shame, hatred, bigotry and intolerance by your stern ‘recognition’ and ‘discernment’ of these atrocities in the film?

To sum it all up:

1Cor 2:14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

Thanks for offering to pray for me. Question – who will you be praying to? And under who’s name and authority?

Eric

I watched “jesus camp” last week. These people have clearly gone off the deep end. Don’t believe me. Go see it for yourself.

Being saved is convulsing, speaking in tongues, and chanting war? Yikes!

My favorite part was the mom and her kids in the kitchen reciting a version of the pledge of allegiance they had made up. One of the kids held some strange flag and they said “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of christianity.” I kid you not. Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.

If heaven is going to be full of wack jobs like these, better to head south.

Here’s a link to a clip from Bill Maher about this movie, check it out:
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/42241/

If you want to see what the Republican Jesus is all about, check out:
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/

Eric:

Ok, you and Horatio can banter back and forth all you want; in fact I’ve learned a lot in the messages you’ve both posted. I will agree with you that generalizing is not the best way to do things (as you illustrated in the last part of your post above this one), but you hit home with that example. I’m a gay man, and I make no attempt to hide it. However, I do not march in parades (I’m actually against those parades by the way, but that’s a different topic) or speak with a lisp; those are the loud 10% that you see and hear about all the time. I’m in the quiet 90% that just goes about living instead of trying to force others to “see” us. Oh, and I’m in Texas.

This thread isn’t about being gay, and it isn’t about whether or not people believe in Christianity. it’s about being radical fundamentalists, which is what I see portrayed in Jesus Camp. I completely understand not everyone is like that, but those that are will make it harder for the rest of you to be yourselves (as in my case with other gay men; some of them just don’t understand). What is being debated, or should be, is the fact these people are not left with any choices, and that’s wrong. If all your life you’re told the sky is green, and then you finally get to take a look and it’s blue, what is that going to do to you?

while i appreciate that the makers of Jesus Camp let the interviewees do all the talking, they were obviously selective about what they let into the final movie release; over all, there is some useful truth in this flick… as long as it’s taken with a grain (or maybe a bucket) of salt