‘It’s not clear that most of the members understand what they’ve done’

As you’ve no doubt heard by now, the Senate passed the Bush-McCain Torture Bill yesterday. The final vote was 65 to 34, with 12 Dems breaking ranks to support the legislation. (Tim Grieve refers to them as the Torture 12, which, given the circumstances, seems more than fair.)

I’ll spare you another rant about just what a tragedy the legislation is, and how appalling yesterday’s debate and vote were, but instead point to an odd but simple question: what does all of this mean for our legal system?

The military trials bill approved by Congress lends legislative support for the first time to broad rules for the detention, interrogation, prosecution and trials of terrorism suspects far different from those in the familiar American criminal justice system.

This WaPo piece is definitely worth reading because it highlights the ways in which the torture bill diverges from our legal system. Habeas corpus has been a bedrock principle of American law, but the torture bill rejects it. The right to a speedy trial is similarly put aside. The executive branch now has the power to detain indefinitely anyone it determines to have “purposefully and materially” supported anti-U.S. hostilities. Evidence obtained through hearsay or coercion can be used to seek criminal convictions. Bush and his allies inserted language so that the courts can’t consider challenges to some of these provisions, regardless of merit.

Our system of justice simply isn’t supposed to work this way.

University of Texas constitutional law professor Sanford V. Levinson described the bill in an Internet posting as the mark of a “banana republic.” Yale Law School Dean Harold Koh said that “the image of Congress rushing to strip jurisdiction from the courts in response to a politically created emergency is really quite shocking, and it’s not clear that most of the members understand what they’ve done.”

Indeed, the legal challenges to the soon-to-be law will come quickly.

The NYT noted that the inevitable legal challenges were on lawmakers’ minds yesterday.

Even some Republicans who voted for the bill said they expected the Supreme Court to strike down the legislation because of the provision barring court detainees’ challenges, an outcome that would send the legislation right back to Congress.

“We should have done it right, because we’re going to have to do it again,” said Senator Gordon H. Smith, Republican of Oregon, who voted to strike the provision and yet supported the bill.

The LAT added, “[S]ome lawmakers, Republicans as well as Democrats, called the move to suspend habeas corpus — the demand for legal justification of one’s imprisonment — a historic mistake, and one that could cause the entire bill to be struck down.” Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), said, “Surely as we are standing here, if this bill is passed and habeas corpus is stricken, we’ll be back on this floor again” grappling with a future ruling against it by the Supreme Court. Something to look forward to.

One other note: the Senate considered a series of amendments to nominally improve the legislation yesterday, including a straight-up vote to protect habeas corpus rights. Senate Republicans blocked all of them — and Republican Sens. Warner, McCain, and Graham, the alleged independent champions, voted with their party each time.

detain

I’m glad to see them hanging their heads.

Not that it really would have mattered anyway… The Senate could have passed a billing specifically banning suspension of Habeas Corpus, and Dubya would have merely made a signing statement authorizing himself to ignore it…

  • I am sorry to say that my Senator, Debbie Stabenow, supported this travesty. Neither me nor my husband will vote for her opponent Mike Bouchard in the reelection race next month, but I called her this morning to let her know that she lost two votes.

  • Can we have the repub party, and the shameful Torture 12 declared as enemy combatants for this assault on our Constitution? It could provide a redeeming social value to Gitmo.

  • Makes you wonder if some of these cravens assumed the Supreme Court would strike it down, and voted for it for political reasons, figuring they could have it both ways. This is so disgusting. The Founding Fathers are spinning in their graves.

  • They don’t care that the Supreme Court may throw out the whole bill. They wanted this bill for electioneering purposes for the next five and a half weeks. That is all that mattered to them, not the U.S. Constitution.

  • Funny how most of the people who voted for this thing consider themselves “Christians,” for this is a bill that would gladden the heart of Pontius Pilate, Herod, and all those Roman soldiers . . .

  • MW gets it in one.

    Listening to Lindsay Graham saying there is no reason the Military should have to explain to a court under a writ of Habeus Corpus (Why do you hold me?) why they consider someone an Enemy Combatant because it’s the Military that designates someone an Enemy Combatant ignores the history of Gitmo and the detention of innocent people.

    What a Southern jackass.

  • Hey you, JRS Jr (a.k.a – butthead)

    Rovian politics are the politics of personal destruction and COERCION (think Max Cleland). Thanks to power-mongers like Lee Atwater and Karl Rove we now live in fascist times. If Menendez wasn’t in a tough election battle, he would have never voted for this legislation. When it came to authorizing the war in Iraq, Menendez had the courage to vote against it.

    The bottom line is this: JRS Jr — you, sir, are a slimy troll.

  • We can’t publish this list enough times.

    Here are the 11 Democrats (and one member of the Connecticut for Lieberman party), who voted to oust the Federal Courts of jurisdiction over constitutional matters. I hope one day the Courts re-establish their jurisdiction one day.

    Carper (D-DE)
    Johnson (D-SD)
    Landrieu (D-LA)
    Lautenberg (D-NJ)
    Lieberman (D-CT)
    Menendez (D-NJ)
    Nelson (D-FL)
    Nelson (D-NE)
    Pryor (D-AR)
    Rockefeller (D-WV)
    Salazar (D-CO)
    Stabenow (D-MI)

  • I am not surprised that there were some Democrats that voted for this. The primaries are over and they are trying to look tough on terror for ‘moderates’ in thier states. The fact that anyone who would concider themselves moderate and believe that passing this bill was the best thing to do for America is a travesty of patriotism.

    As sad as this is I can’t wait to see what Alito, Roberts, Thomas, and Scalia have to say about this. I’m sure it will be something like “We find Habeus Corpus to be a quaint idea. A speedy trial is really no subsstitute for no trial at all.”

    It is a bunch of crap and everyone should be calling their Senators (of both parties) who voted for this and ripping them a new asshole. That would include my beloved Norm Coleman the shiester schmuck of the century.

    JRS Jr (welcome back) nobody should have supported this bill. However I guarantee that Democrats will NOT look at this vote and decide “screw that guy I’m voting republican!” We need oversight of the Executive Branch for the next 2 years – personal politics aside. This is a truely a Constitutional crisis. Even bigger than last one which I believe involved a blue dress.

  • Also what does this tell us about Harry Reid’s leadership skills? He couldn’t even convince Stabenow to filibuster?

  • Do the Republicans think they will intimidate terrorists and insurgents with the threat of torture? Do they not see the dozen or so people found with holes drilled in their heads in Iraq everyday. Torture is not a deterrent.

    Well, JSR how do you feel about ALL your asshole Republicans? CB, could you ban this pissant? I don’t have patience with the Republicans who are ruining our country and I sure don’t have patience with a little Repug troll.

  • Just e-mailed Norm Coleman, and I found it ironic that his topics list didn’t conclude any legal/judicial/constitutional category.

    It make me sick that we have 65 “leaders” (plus a president) who think this bill is a good idea and good for the country. Wankers.

  • slip kid no more: : JRS Jr — you, sir, are a slimy troll.

    i remember this fuckwit JRS from a few weeks back. same shit, dif day. it’s like they’re all assigned to dif progressive/liberal sites to try to piss people off. fuck ’em.

    i personally am ill about this latest installment of ‘torture is US.’ any sane, caring, fair American would be.

  • Salazar voted for this abomination. He’s not up for reelection and he voted for this atrocity. I’m honestly at a loss. I don’t get what the Democrats’ problem is. This is a bumbling, incompetent President and most of the country seems to think so as well. Congress is viewed even less favorably. Yet the Democrats can’t stop somthing like this? I feel like I’m going to throw up. Is the opposition party really an illusion?

  • I have a question – so if there is a legal scholar here who can clairfy for me, I would appreciate it. I am confused – which I am sure is/was the purpose.

    From the WaPo story, that CB linked in this post, at the end of it there is this quote:

    “If you’re an American citizen, you get the Cadillac system of justice. If you’re a foreigner or a green-card holder, you get this beat-up-Chevy version,” he said.(Georgetown University law professor Neal Katyal)

    But from the Dan Froomkin’s WH Briefing yesteday he included this from LATimes:

    Here’s just one example of what’s in the bill that few people are aware of. Yale professor Bruce Ackerman writes in a Los Angeles Times op-ed: “Buried in the complex Senate compromise on detainee treatment is a real shocker, reaching far beyond the legal struggles about foreign terrorist suspects in the Guantanamo Bay fortress. The compromise legislation, which is racing toward the White House, authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights.

  • “The executive branch now has the power to detain indefinitely anyone it determines to have “purposefully and materially” supported anti-U.S. hostilities.”

    This gives a whole new meaning to the scene where Dick Cheney looks you in the eye… makes a fist… drools a bit… and says: Go fuck yourself.

  • Kurzleg #14,

    I emailed Norm (if it is good for Norm it is good for MN) Coleman yesterday before the votre and I noted the same thing. He has an option built in if you want to comment about casework. I had to look it up but casework apparently is where you go to your Senator to get him or her to grease the wheels on your international adoption or some such thing.

    Hey, I went around and around with JRS Jr (SR must be so proud) the other day. He abviously is only here to stir the pot but for chrissake don’t be an idiot and suggest we ban him (could be her the comments do not obviously have a penis). That is not progressive, liberal, American or even kind. If he wants to come here and post let him post. If you think he’s an asshole who is trollin ghte site tehn don;t respond to him. Ignore him and he will go away.

  • COMMENTARY ON THE MILITARY COMMISSION ACT OF 2006
    By: Thomas Jefferson

    “A bill of rights [should provide] clearly and without the aid of sophisms for… the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land and not by the law of nations.” –Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787.

    “The Habeas Corpus secures every man here, alien or citizen, against everything which is not law, whatever shape it may assume.” –Thomas Jefferson to A. H. Rowan, 1798.

    “Freedom of the person under the protection of the habeas corpus I deem [one of the] essential principles of our government.” –Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801.

    “Why suspend the habeas corpus in insurrections and rebellions? The parties who may be arrested may be charged instantly with a well defined crime; of course, the judge will remand them. If the public safety requires that the government should have a man imprisoned on less probable testimony in those than in other emergencies, let him be taken and tried, retaken and retried, while the necessity continues, only giving him redress against the government for damages. Examine the history of England. See how few of the cases of the suspension of the habeas corpus law have been worthy of that suspension. They have been either real treasons,
    wherein the parties might as well have been charged at once, or sham plots, where it was shameful they should ever have been suspected. Yet for the few cases wherein the suspension of the habeas corpus has done real good, that operation is now become habitual and the minds of the nation almost prepared to live under its constant suspension.” –Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788.

    “I consider [trial by jury] as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution.” –Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Paine, 1789.

  • That’s it folks. It’s over. The terrorists have won. Please remember to tip your waitstaff.

    And that’s not a joke.

    The whole point of terrorism is to get it’s target to do things it wouldn’t normally do. To do things otherwise unthinkable. To substantially change what that target is and what it believes.

    Our elected officials have decided to throw away an idea nearly 800 years old (habeas corpus) that formed the very basis of our legal system. They have tossed aside an entire branch of government (the judiciary) and given unchecked power to one person. And they have made it okay to simply ignore common human decency (torture) in some flailing effort to prove they’re keeping us safe.

    If anyone can explain to me how the terrorists have not won, I’d love to read it because, from all the evidence available, it appears that we have lost.

    RIP, America. May whatever god or gods that exist have mercy on each and every one of our souls.

  • trevfasz…

    I’m afraid the answer is yes.

    we have no real opposition party. What we have is an illusion, a choice between Pepsi and Coke.

    What we have is not an opposition party, but a herd of cats that are going to be skinned one by one because they run in different directions rather than form a pack and go after the lead dogs.

    We have an unpopular president leading a disastrous war, wiping his ass with the constitution. Dems can’t bring themselves to filibuster the suspension of habeus corpus and the retroactive legalization of torture?

    Where’s the opposition party? It’s dead, Jim.

  • However I guarantee that Democrats will NOT look at this vote and decide “screw that guy I’m voting republican!”

    MNP, here’s the deal. it’s not that Dems will look at the vote and decide to vote GOP. What the GOP wants is for Dems to look at this and stay home on election day. That’s the thing we can’t have happen. And that’s the strategy.

  • Being from the south (Louisiana) I can see why some of the names are on that list, but I would have thought Rockefeller would have known better.

    I think many Senators are counting on this being thrown out by the Supreme Court – I think even Scalia is likely to see this for what this is. Like previous posters have alluded to, this was heat of the moment, fear based piece of electioneering crap that they are thinking will get thrown out, thereby providing them with election fodder but without the consequences.

  • If the Rs retain control of congress, look for ‘enemy combatants’ to start showing up in mostly Blue States. And then a case for reversing Posse Comitatus.

    I wonder what it will be like to have The US Army pointing a gun at my head?

  • What this vote proves is that today’s politicians, whatever their party, will do anything — including raping their mother and selling their father into slavery — on the remote possibility that not so doing might be used by their opponent as a slur on their electability, thus launching them on a new path: highly lucrative lobbying and ass kissing.

    I don’t excuse those who voted for the amendments and against the bill, either. They didn’t do enough to remind their timid colleagues and the “fourth estate” (whatever that is now) what’s wrong with adopting torture and throwing out Habeas corpus. That they, now that the damage is done, “knew not what they did”, is hardly an excuse.

    Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for the late, once-great, United States of America, now just another banana republic, but soon to be the prime 21st century instance of a democratic republic willing itself into fascism.

    Fortunately I do have something to look forward to, hoping to forget the death of my nation. Trying to be a good and faithful American under this new regime, I plan to sing hymns all day (with the real words, not the dirty ones) and watch my pre-taped season opener of Smallville, though perhaps I’d better not zap the ads, thereby demonstrating loyalty to the corporate powers.

  • “The whole point of terrorism is to get it’s target to do things it wouldn’t normally do. To do things otherwise unthinkable. To substantially change what that target is and what it believes.”

    U.M. you got it in one. The terrorists have been running this country since September 11th, 2001. No wonder reports that ObL was dead didn’t pan out. If laughter is the best medicine this guy will live to be 200 from all the guffaws he’s getting out of our so-called leaders.

    And every time someone’s relatives disappear in an unmarked van? More recruits for Al-Qaida.

    Thanks cowards!

  • Dave G. #23 –

    You point out an obvious danger. We have active third parties in MN and Jessee Ventura is proof of what happens when the party nominees do not impress. The very last glimmer of optimism in my heart tells me that the reason people are Democrats and they suppport progressive ideas like debate, freedon, and equality is that they believe in these things. The GOP has become a formation of goose-stepping brownshirts. I would not be surprised if they all went to the bathroom together too.

    In my heart I believe that Dems can vote for Melendez because the alternative is unacceptable and tehn make it clear to him that his position is not one his state supports.

    Ed, Might I suggest you involve yourself in the most American of all activities the MLB pennant races? The Tewins pulled even witht he Tigers last night and open a 4 game series with Chicago to end the season. Good stuff. You can eat apple pie while you watch with your mother.

  • To MNProgressive:

    Banning trolls is a common thing on discussion sites. Not the least idiotic. Since it is a private entity, it is not even censorship. He can post his taunts anywhere he wants.

  • MNProgressive (#28),

    Ed, Might I suggest you involve yourself in the most American of all activities the MLB pennant races?

    Thanks for the suggestion, but having since 1977 been as devoted a fan of the Seattle Mariners as I have been loyal to the Democratic Party has left me with an equally sour assessment of the selfishness of power-positioned human beings on whom I had reason to believe I could count.

  • While I would personally like to grab each of the Torture Twelve by the throat and shake them to within an inch of their lives as they turn blue before letting go of them (and maybe having to be pulled off by others to let go of them), I have to admit that this thoughtful bit of reasoning by the ever-thoughtful Glenn Greenwald makes me think again about where we are at:

    I think there is one other point that needs to be recognized about yesterday’s vote: In 2002, all of the Democratic Presidential hopefuls in Congress (Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Graham) voted for the Iraq war resolution, because they thought they had to be accommodationist in order
    to have a chance to win.

    But this time, all of the Democratic Presidential hopefuls in Congress (Biden, Clinton, Feingold, Kerry) voted against this bill, because now they know that they can’t be accommodationist if they want to win the nomination. Call that the Joe Lieberman Lesson. That is genuine progress,
    no matter how you slice it. Is it glorious, tearing-down-the-gate-with-fists-in-the-air Immediate Revolution? No. But it’s undeniable incremental progress nonetheless.

    YMMV

  • Boy, Arent we all touchy this am?

    So many of you two days ago disputed my comments re: against voting stricty down party lines, and chosing candidates on their merrits, and attacked my preference for Kean vs. Menedez, hence my comment.

    Basically, if your a party can’t agree on a polarizing issue such as this, how the hell can you still argue to simply vote down party lines???
    Dale, I don’t feel all that great about “my republicans”, hence I will look to vote across party lines in upcoming elections.

    PS — I am no political junky assigned to piss you guys off, very far from it. But I do find in interesting how harshly I get attacked for offering a differing/challenging view. ? I guess I should start learningthe words Kumbaya to continue to participate on this blog.

  • Menendez at least has an excuse in that he’s in a tough political battle. Doesn’t justify his vote, but it’s an excuse…

    But what’s the deal with Lautenberg? His vote seems to go directly against everything he’s voted for in his life.

  • Beth – I’m no scholar, but from what I recall from the legislation (and it’s been a few days since I perused it), I think the WaPo is missing it and that Ackerman is correct. When I read it, I was kind of shocked to see that there was no requirement that only non-citizens could be declared enemy combatants or “supporters” of terrorists. Someone on this site asked several times why an amendment saying that it specifically could not apply to citizens wasn’t included – and I don’t think a good answer was ever received.

    The chickens are coming home to roost, y’all. The President now has the authority to seize anyone whom he deems to be a supporter of terrorism, with no judicial oversight whatsoever of his decision. Then, with habeas corpus being suspended/eliminated, any of us can basically be held forever without a trial.

    I was at first hopeful that there was no Gestapo-like police force to carry out these inhumanities.

    Then it dawned on me. All the government contractors working in Iraq, working in the prisons over there, outnumbering the soldiers in some locations, giving orders to the soldiers in some places.

    Wow. Bush and Cheney have their own little training ground for their secret police.

    And trust me, I am no conspiracy theorist. But I’m also not an idiot. I think I just scared myself even more.

  • We shouldn’t have to ignore the shriveled-little-ego games of the troll. I’ve been running discussion lists since 1995 and spent many years being inclusive, tolerant, non-judgmental (the values that Dems embrace and Repubs have shat on) and I finally figured out that trolls are barely worth the time it takes to ban them. A troll doesn’t present a moral dillema, they’re simply matters of waste disposal. Ban the pissant.

    No more docile progressives.

  • Why should terrorists be treated like criminal defendants. They are enemy combatants not car thieves. Why are you people so dense. This does nothing to the US legal system. This is a special system for terror suspects not criminals. Not too complicated. Your fringe viewpoint is not representative of the American people. Why else would this get 65 votes before an election. Because the American people support this and the Congress is representing their constituents, not the terror suspects or their lawyers. When will the Democratic leadership get serious about the terrorist threat. The American people want to know.

  • Homer # 36

    I think the gestapo you mention are also what the Homeland Security agents will be for. They’ve already showed gestapo tendencies.

  • Buried on page A20, the Chicago Tribune reported that Canada’s top Mountie publicly apologized to the Canadian who was rendered to Syria, tortured for 10 months, but had never done a damn thing with terrorists.

    But we don’t need Habeas Corpus for this, because all terror suspects are guilty and Dear Leader would never, ever make a mistake, and terrorists would just use Habeas Corpus to clog up the legal system. (Canadians offering apologies will be declared “soft on terror” in 3…. 2….)

    I am despondent today. My country has failed me. And it’s the words of George Lucas that come to me “So this is how liberty dies… with thunderous applause”

  • “But what’s the deal with Lautenberg?”

    I really hate to say this, but Lautenberg is Jewish. It seems that some Jewish Americans are willing to trash anything this country stands for to gain any small perceived advantage for Israel (q.v. Joe Lieberman). And, no, that’s not anti-Semitic. There are lots of Jews who are Americans first and Israelis second. Lautenberg just isn’t one of them.

  • “Why should terrorists be treated like criminal defendants.”

    Because, until they are convicted, that is just what they are.

  • Junior #33. Wow maybe it is not hte offering of a dissenting opinion that gets people so excited but rather your snarky sarcastic tone and obvious lack of attention to reality. If I want to hear what you are saying I will watch the news or listen to talk radio.

    Read my post #28 and you will see that the whole fuckingpoint is that just because the party affiliation is the same the votes and positions can be different! Because Dems allow difference of opinion in the party and do not threaten their caucus to stay in line does not make them weak it makes them strong.

    Intersting that when we all agree with eachother on a topic like Bush is the worst president ever and the GOP is killing America,righties accuse us of being batshit carzy liberals who all just want to hug and can’t step up and lead because we are seriously just too fucking weak. When someone like you steps into our little world here and voices an opinion we do not like we attack you. Unlike the GOP when lefties attack we are being emotional and touchy.

    I’m all about having a devil’s advocate because opposition strengthens understanding of an issue or position. However you are not winning any friends by being rude.

    If you want to mend fences you can feel free to name some of the non GOP candidates youa re seriously considering voting for in upcomming elections. As an FYI I hope you are not from CT. Lieberman is a four letter word around here.

  • “Someone on this site asked several times why an amendment saying that it specifically could not apply to citizens wasn’t included – and I don’t think a good answer was ever received.” – Homer

    Because, just by our blogging here in such defaming and questioning tones of Boy George II and all his works, we are doing the work of the Terrorists, and thus should be punished.

    Didn’t you know that?

  • Thanks Ohioan for reminding me that Joe Lieberman is not a Democrat anymore and thus his vote does not count as an infamy against the party.

    Makes me feel just a tiny bit better.

  • This does nothing to the US legal system.

    Actually, yes, it does. And here’s why:

    The President can now detain anyone, anywhere, at any time, just because he believe that the person in question somehow “helped” a terrorist. This includes U.S. citizens.

    There’s a few problems with this:

    1. There is absolutely no oversight by a court of law. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

    2. No evidence has to be presented. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

    3. The person being held has no right to dispute his/her imprisonment. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

    Now, think about that for just a second. Let it roll around your head (and, from the looks of it, you have plenty of space up there for that to occur).

    Now, consider the fact that ANY FUTURE PRESIDENT can do the same thing. Not just one you support, but any of them. Even Hillary, even Kerry, even me if I ever got elected. Any of them.

    We’re just supposed to trust him/her to make the right decision? What’s to stop them from locking up anyone, at any time, for any reason? There’s no way to tell what the person is locked up for — yet we’re just supposed to trust our leader to the right thing, not just now, but for years to come?

    Maybe you can explain to me how a country that’s based upon the very idea that you cannot trust the government — and installed checks and balances for that very purpose — has suddenly given unfettered power to one person. Because, quite frankly, I don’t get it.

  • Ken Salazar was Colorado’s Attorney General before being voted into the Senate. What could someone with that legal background be thinking? (Other than James Dobson is one of his constituents.)

    I do believe that many Senators are aware this is a political stunt to buy them votes, or prevent a hemmoraging of votes, in a few weeks, that will eventually be struck down by the Supremes. Even Scalia must have enough ego to see the executive branch usurping judicial powers by creating tribunals soley controlled by the executive.

    To those doubters who say these guys are all guilty: there is plenty of evidence that shows may of these guys are innocent, but it’s not being allowed to see the light of day, hence the suspension of habeas corpus. It’s been proven taht a number held in Guantanamo were sold to the U.S. forces because of reward money and were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. As for torture, to borrow a line from Pulp Fiction, with a blowtorch and a pair of pliers I could get anybody to admit to anything, including making W admit he was Osama bin Laden. And if they didn’t admit to anything they wouldn’t be around afterwards to say otherwise. Does that really get us anywhere?

  • I am sorry to say that my Senator, Debbie Stabenow, supported this travesty. Neither me nor my husband will vote for her opponent Mike Bouchard in the reelection race next month, but I called her this morning to let her know that she lost two votes.

    Right there with ya, Michelle. My wife and I and my neighbors across the street and at least one other MI blogger I know feel likewise. I hope we hold the seat, but she’ll have to do it without my (our) help.

  • To expound upon Unholy Moses’es point (#46), I am curious as to why the current administration isn’t worried that the new legislation might be turned back on them.

    As far as I can see, these people are criminals, are terrorizing our country, are playing into the hands of terrorists (by destroying our once proud nation from within), and could certainly be called a “rebellion” or “invasion” (to which our leaders are entitled to suspend Habeas Corpus; no changes needed).

    Why are they not worried that they might be the ones sent off and tortured under the provisions of their own bill? Could it be that a return to order and balance isn’t worth worrying about? Do they believe (know) their power is permanent?

  • MNP, I am a nutmegger, so my Lieberman voting record doesn’t count in your eyes. That said, voted for some local Dems on the state level, Sen. Moynahan back in my NYC days as well as Bill Clinton for Prez. I would vote for Obamma or Ford if they ran for a national office.

  • JTK: Why are they not worried that they might be the ones sent off and tortured under the provisions of their own bill? Could it be that a return to order and balance isn’t worth worrying about? Do they believe (know) their power is permanent?

    that’s the feeling i’ve been getting for the last few years. for just a small taste, google ‘whatever it takes’ diebold.

  • The House and Senate bills are not identical. The bill as passed by the House (H.R. 6166) differs from the Senate version (S.3930). The House version as published includes languauge allowing tribunals “established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.” to determine who is “an unlawful enemy combatant”. All the frou frou you may have heard about this only applying to “aliens” is the Senate version.

    The two bills still need reconciliation in order for the President to legally sign them into law. That hasn’t stopped him before, but I should hope they would at least conform to the proper form when discarding nearly 800 years of Anglo – American jurisprudence. We will see how serious the “leadership” is by how fast they schedule a midnight reconciliation meeting.

    Remember the scene in the Three Musketeers (Lester version) where D’Artagnan shows Richelieu his authorization; “It is by my order and for the good of the state that the bearer of this has done what he has done.”, signed by Richelieu? Bush has authorization to do what he has done, though I don’t think it will be for the good of the late United States.

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