Sunday Discussion Group

David Kuo’s new book, “Tempting Faith,” has generated considerable buzz in the political world, but a regular reader, Stephen, emailed me the other day with an angle that seems to have been largely overlooked.

I have to admit I’m a little torn inside. I’ve been reading (and you’ve been blogging) for years about the dangerous marriage of church and state that this administration has fostered, but now we find out their hearts weren’t in it all along.

As a secular humanist and a scientist, I paid close attention to the Christian right’s growing influence in government affairs, but David Kuo’s book now suggests that the administration was just another group of assholes who would say anything to be elected.

I had figured Karl Rove to be that way, but I had thought Bush to be a True Believer (TM). My question is, which is scarier – George the Baptist or George the Neocon?

It’s an important point. When it comes to matters of faith and church-state separation, one of the central criticisms of the Bush presidency is that he’s committed to pushing religion and government together, perhaps more than any president in U.S. history. The faith-based scheme, school vouchers, national days of prayer, creationism, the relationships with the religious right … we’re talking about a president who appreciates our constitutional principles on religious liberty about as much as he appreciates military advice from Hugo Chavez.

On the same issue, the other central criticism of Bush’s presidency is that he’s a transparent phony. He’ll talk a good game about compassion and Christian principles, but his deeds don’t match his words. Bush strings the religious right along, making all kinds of promises, but his commitments to evangelicals are hollow and meaningless. Religion is just another political tool, which the president and his White House cynically use to get what they want, nothing more.

The problem, of course, is that these two criticisms contradict one another.

Amy Sullivan touched on this a couple of days ago.

Despite the evidence Kuo presents in Tempting Faith, liberals simply don’t believe him. They’ve spent so much time fear-mongering about American theocracy that a book illustrating the opposite simply makes no sense to them. In fact, the real revelation of Kuo’s book is not that the Bushies don’t care about evangelicals; it’s that liberals are too wedded to their views to capitalize on it. […]

The problem is that Kuo’s book creates cognitive dissonance for liberals. Conspiracy theories about theocracy have haunted liberals for the last few years, and, if you believe that religious conservatives lead Bush around by the nose, evidence to the contrary is impossible to absorb.

Sullivan raised a couple of points in her piece which I definitely disagree with, but the point about the contradiction is not without merit. Bush cannot be a pious theocrat and an indifferent-to-faith charlatan at the same time.

So, what do you think? Is the contradiction irreconcilable? If so, which is the more accurate reflection of Bush’s true character, the theocon or the con-artist? True-believer or cynic?

Bush will do whatever it takes to have his way. Period. Everything else is tactical. It’s the typical pattern of an unchallenged alcoholic: promise whatever it takes so long as you get to keep on drinking.

In honor of the Regal Moron’s most recent achievement, I’ve added a new “event” to my graph of the Quagmire.

  • After reading Alternet’s contribution on Leo Strauss, I have absolutely no doubt Bush is a true con artist who uses his “religion” to manipulate the base. The man is not a Christian. It’s all about deception, people.

    http://alternet.org/story/15935/

  • OT

    I have a post up on my blog that’s based on my comments here last weekend, if anybody liked them and wants to check it out.

    I’m going to do a post on my blog at least one to three times a week, from now on. Blogger seems to be messing up but keep looking.

  • What about the other end of the equation? How ‘christian’ are the Christian fundamentalists?

    The main, though unstated goal of the ‘faith based initiative’ is funneling money to evangelical preachers. For this the fundamentalists are to support the Republicans in all things, and above all deliver the vote.

    What has been the response of these preachers to the book? A contract is a contract. Dobson and the other Elmer Gantrys still support Bush. Whether their flocks will stray is an open question.

    It’s always been about money & power.

  • Herein lies the great danger of assessing this president; that he can only be one or the other, and not both. However, it is possible for the glass to be both half-empty AND half full at the same moment in time, so why not Herr Bush? His penchants for being a Theofascist at one point in time, and a Neofascist at another, does not lessen the fact that the central tenet of his ethos is that of a blatant Fascist.

    Compare Herr Bush to an earlier version of human megalomania: Herr Hitler played off the existing Church in Germany, and eventually molded it into a National Church—or shall I name it as it deserves to be named, and say “Nazi Church?”

    Extrapolate that into today’s mentalities, and what we may be seeing is the early stages of a theological construct much more hideous than anything every dreamt of by the Dobsons, Falwells, and Robertsons of the world, whether they be Christian pastors, Islamic clerics, or what-have-you.

    Contemplate, for but a moment or three, the establishment of a Neocon Church—a theology whereby only those who demonstrate their unquestionable loyalty to the administrative hierarchy of the American Reich are rewarded, and all others are subjected to various forms of humiliation and degradation, to the point of such things as “extraordinary rendition and torture”—and be afraid.

    Indeed, be VERY afraid….

  • Bush is just a rich kid. He’s more like a college slacker grown up than any kind of an ideologue, neocon or otherwise. He’s still “smart” though, as in when people realize that Bush is smarter than they think.

    Understanding Bush is understanding that he’s smart without an agenda. He’s not doing everything in service of some personal belief like American might or religion. It’s more about where he comes from with him.

    He’s still the guy you remember from school who wasn’t curious about anything except how to go on being a lazy asshole, but he’s smarter than he appears; he just doesn’t utilize his intelligence all the time because he prefers not to- a lot of people are like that & seem not as smart as they are for different reasons.

  • Granted all in my comment at #6, the religion stuff is something that is and was worth being concerned about. It’s just that it wasn’t coming from Bush as directly. Bush is the President because he’s electable.

    When Bush’s people are standing on the shoulders of the religious right and they’re so under those people’s sway that they have to make such huge concessions to get things done, you have every reason to be concerned.

    In terms of power, a Bush whitehouse and its supporters become interchangeable, often, and frequently can be seen as standing in the place of each other. It’s just that in fact you can’t really lay all the ideologies at Bush’s door.

  • If so, which is the more accurate reflection of Bush’s true character, the theocon or the con-artist? True-believer or cynic?

    I don’t think it matters much at this point. The reality of Kuo’s book won’t sink in completely for the religious right until he’s either out of office or almost so (even then they’ll continue to support republicans). Then the mythology of Bush’s religious beliefs will grow among them. Similar to the Reagan myth. Another interesting question is: Will Bush continue to feed that mythology after he leaves office or will he ignore it.

  • Sullivan raised a couple of points in her piece which I definitely disagree with, but the point about the contradiction is not without merit. Bush cannot be a pious theocrat and an indifferent-to-faith charlatan at the same time.

    Why not? Well, okay, “pious” and “indifferent-to-faith” are contradictions, but theocrat and charlatan certainly aren’t.

    The contradiction doesn’t seem that important to me. In fact, one could convincingly argue that no, it’s not reconcilable – all theocrats are charlatans (at least in the Christian tradition) because of the whole “render unto Caesar” thing and more Christian doctrine that I lack the expertise to go into, and because the separation of church and state is meant to protect religions from the government as much as the other way around. So if Bush would govern religiously, then of course he’ll screw over religious groups somehow or other.

    I haven’t read Kuo’s book, but the concrete example from it I’ve seen cited in more than one place is about an episode where Bush underfunds faith-based groups despite campaign promises, and tells Kuo to lie about it to the religious groups. That says Bush is an asshole, but it was never one of the biggest criticisms of him on church-state issues in the first place. If Kuo also reports that Bush didn’t allow/encourage churches to be used as Republican Party outlets and hadn’t supported the gay marriage amendment, (to pick just the first two examples that come to mind out of many possible) then I would reconsider the idea that Bush has warped and destructive ideas on the separation of church and state. Just because he callously uses the flock doesn’t mean he doesn’t also let them get their way on some deeply harmful issues.

  • A painful subject, but one which needs to be brought into any discussion of Bush, and that’s narcissism.

    The intense narcissism of Bush is less visible to most of us because of the intensity of the narcissism which grips American society. I see it in myself; in those around me; in close and far-away friends and colleagues. It’s inherent in our culture. Painful.

    Bush and Bush-like governance (and the kinds Congressional representation we’ve had lately) aren’t going away until we emerge from this miasma — as individuals and as a nation — and come to some awareness that not everybody and everything around us are tools our self-betterment. Nor do they all want to be like us…

  • I see no contradiction.

    There are people who want to make the state favor the beliefs of their particular sect. These are the iconic Religious Right.
    Bush could care less about these beliefs, but he is content to use the people that hold them.

    Its just politics.

    In a way its the religious leaders who are acting most sinfully. They sacrifice the sanctity of their religion in their lust for power. The politicians are just using people. That’s their job.

  • It’s George the Opportunist. Opportunism runs in the family. Remember he was pro-choice, until he became Reagan’s running mate. He condemned Reagan’s “voodoo economics” and then came to embrace them. The younger Bush and his family do what they have to do to win political campaigns. That they are a little less than ideological is not surprising.

  • Put me down as neo-con-artist. Bush has enough sympathy with the theocratic agenda, to allow him to be somewhat fluent in their political dialect. That’s not to say that he, himself, is a dyed in the cloth theocrat.
    At the same time, Rove understands that without the theocrats, national repubs are in a really tough spot. I don’t see it as a contradiction as much as I see it as a toxic mixture.
    Bush and Rove may not have delivered the theocratic state that Dobson et al lust after, but they have given legitimacy and prominence to a political philosophy that has no place in traditional American governance.

  • People are unwilling to dump a pet theory in the face of compelling yet contradictory evidence? You shock me.

    I don’t see the the need for dissonance of any sort, just ask this question: How many snake oil salesmen swallow their own concotions?

    Right.

    tAiO

    p.s. I heartily second Polly Tess.

  • Amy Sullivan’s notion of cognitive dissonance among liberals is interesting but somewhat vulnerable in that it blames liberals for their inability to logically reconcile a situation without considering whether the situation itself is reconcilable within the bounds of what we consider rational.

    If the clock on the mantle says noon and the clock on the VCR says 12:30, is the issue that a visitor is confused? Or is the issue that one or both of the clocks are wrong, and that the correct time, based on available evidence, is unknowable?

    When I look at most religions, I find systems of belief that allow contradictions to exist, without reconciling them. One simply chooses to believe one of the competing notions. How many times have we heard opposite views justified using quotes from scripture? How many times have we seen belief or ideology triumph over fact?

    Why, then, would must we think Bush cannot be a true believer and, at the same time, use other believers for his own purposes – while also claiming moral and ethical high ground? Once belief overcomes rationality, anything is possible.

    That said, it may be that those of us who consider ourselves reality-based may need to adjust our definition of reality – and to that extent, Sullivan may be onto something. Perhaps all we need to do is recognize that some people are delusional and illogical, and that they don’t follow our rules of rationality.

    I just gave myself a reality-based headache.

  • Two bits of secondary information. I taped an interview with David Kuo the other day in which he said that , in spite of all we know about him, Karl Rove is a really decent chappy. And then went on to cite instances of personal kindnesses, passing off all the other really awful stuff Rove has done as “politics.” Hmmm…

    A woman in Nebraska, interviewed on NPR, reiterated the notion that Bush is a man of real character, and that it was Clinton’s “lowering the bar” that’s responsible for the precipitous decline in American morals — including all skullduggery committed by Republican members of Congress. Bush is moral. Clinton’s responsible for everything bad that’s happened. She sounded like a middle-aged soccer mom and she sounded completely convinced that she knew “character” when she saw it. Hmmm2….

  • Bush, just like Dobson, honestly believes he’s a good christian. But he’s an “easy” christian. All he, and many of the evanglical types, has to do is proclaim himselves saved then he becomes righteous and everyhing he does is with god’s backing and design. What makes him so dangerous, just like Dobson et al, is that conversion or feelings of faith annoint them as soldiers of god to carry out his work. So when they get the idea to do something, like say attacking Iraq, it was god that gave them the idea so it’s therefore divinely inspired. All they need to do is back it up with som oblique reference in any testament or popularly accepted religious concept (aka the rapture) and voila! — proof that it was all god’s idea.

    For Bush i’s trading jut trading causes for his actions. Before being saved the botle made him do it, after being savd god made him do it.

    But the problem with these “easy” christians is that they don’t have to put in the hard work of true service, sacrifice, pennance or other suffering we normally come to accept in religious icons like say Jesus or Mother Theresa. They have copped-out to modern day rationalizations like god wanting them to be rich or powerful so that way they can lock themselves away in gated communities and play golf on Sunday at white-only courses bcause that’s god’s reward to them for being saved. These modern day evangelicals have made it easy to be righteous and annointed their followers with the impression that whatever they do will always be right in god’s eyes if they are “saved.”

  • I went to church a lot during my life, and let me tell you, a lot of types go to church. Sure, Bush goes to church. You know who else goes to church? John Kerry goes to church. Bill Clinton goes to church.

    There’s a whole range of religious experience, from taking it to a theological, philosophical level that a lot of people-of-the-cloth are indoctrinated in but that the laiety are usually never taught about in their traditional, religious training, to those who don’t believe in religion at all but who exploit it to take advantage of people- whether it’s a pastor taking advantage of people in different ways, or a person who just wants to manipulate her family members. The stereotype of the guy who is pious in church for 30 minutes but then who is flipping people off in the church parking lot really holds true. I remember when I used to go to church a lot of people would leave ten minutes early. If you’re doing that all the time you really don’t respect the church. All your missing is a hymn and a few announcements, but it’s really disrespectful and the priests notice it.

    But a lot of people do this all the time, but still go to church every week and maybe even talk as if they’re true believers. They’re all for the church until it asks them to do something to alter their lives that is just a little too inconvenient, like not leaving the mass at 10 of the hour or not fingering the guy who’s in their way in the church parking lot. They’ll go to church and give 10% or whatever to the tithe but that’s it.

    Bush can think he’s really religious, but where is he on the scale from really fundamentalist people to really not true people? The answer is just that he’s not as close to the fundamentalists as you might think. Or as a lot of people think; maybe the fundamentalists themselves. He’s closer to being the guys who’s flipping people off in the church parking lot.

    The republicans may not feel threatened by your calling Bush not really religious, because they feel like they know better and that he really is religious. But they’re the ones who are being fooled if they think this. Bush is maybe really religious. And maybe he isn’t. But he’s not a fundamentalist.

  • Butch #4 has the point. It is the Christianity stupid. Liberals do not fear religion. Liberls dislike fundie churches who are nothing more than a wing of the Republican party getting to set the agend. What if it were the NRA and not FotF? As is our way, liberals see the only fair solution (and Constitutional one) as keeping a strong seperation since this problem comes wrapped in a cross. Bush et al intentionally blur that line for political gain. Fundies see two options 1)Dems who will not allow Jesus to replace the Bald Eagle or 2)Reps who may not go al the way but pay a lot of lip service to the cause.

    Bush does not believe in the programs that the fundies want so he does not enact them. This is not a dissonance in the liberal view of the world it is a reflection of the dissonance in the GOP and the neocon agenda.

  • I think administration evangelicalism is strong, but administration political calculus is stronger. Bush basically does whatever Rove tells him, because Rove keeps Bush in power. However, as soon as Rove looses his ability to keep Bush in power, then you will see Bush retreat to the more extreme (and comforting) theological position.

    Unfortunately for Bush, he has no hope of enacting evangelical principals without power. Therefore, political calculus always wins.

  • Tempting Faith does nothing to dispel claims of an American theocracy as some are asserting. In fact, he has inadvertently provided stunning insights into their true nature and purpose. No leader of an empire ever truly believes the religions used to manipulate subjects. That would be like a drug dealer hooked on his product; its bad for business…

    The events of recent years and the actions of the so-called Evangelical Right and the Republican Party have produced a veritable flood of evidence illuminating the great duplicity and hypocrisy of Judeo-Christian political and religious leaders. While bedeviling us all with their holier-than-thou pretenses, they are consistently being exposed as some of the greediest, most arrogant, and deceptive of all people. How much more proof is necessary before humanity finally understands that religion has always been a purposeful deception and the chosen tool of great deceivers? What must the “faithful” experience before they understand they have been duped into supporting the primary sources of evil in this world?

  • Amen, Seven Star Hand @ 11:31. I know lots of good, decent, honest, honest people in my own church, who are like lemmings, blindly following Bush and his “Christian” fundy friends right off the cliff. I’ve tried to convince them that they are being duped.

    Although I fear the consequences, I for one can’t wait to stand, shake my head, and say, “I told you so.”

  • Bush cannot be a pious theocrat and an indifferent-to-faith charlatan at the same time.

    Simple questions about faith assume that we all agree on what it means to be faithful. Is it a belief in the strength and righteousness of the church, or is it humility and submission to the will of God? Is it the perception of ultimate Good and Evil as manifestations of the divine struggle, or is it acts of charity?

    I still think George II is quite faithful, in his own squinty simple-minded way, but he is clearly in way over his head, and that is the definition of a charlatan. I also think he is a borderline megalomaniac. In short, Bush is a cross between Jim Jones and Dr. Evil. Enjoy the laughs, but don’t drink the Kool-Aid.

    When asked to point out how Bush actually helped the religious right, his defenders (and some perceptive detractors) quickly point to his two Supreme Court appointments, then cross their arms defiantly. Does that make Bush a friend of the theocrats? I think not, because Bush has shown open contempt for the balance of powers, and the courts are just as much a part of this dismissive attitude as his many “signing statements”. If the SOTUS were to experience a religious convulsion that set them at odds with the Bush policy in Iraq or Israel, you can bet Bush would find a way to sideline them.

    Bush has faith, but it is a faith that principally serves to reinforce his claim to power. You’re either with ‘im, or you’re agin ‘im. For Bush, the Oval Office is indistinguishable from an altar to his personal sainthood.

  • Bush cannot be a pious theocrat and an indifferent-to-faith charlatan at the same time.

    No, but he can be a pious theocrat who believes he knows best how to spread the word of Jesus. If that means stringing along other theocrats, lying to them, or going back on his promises to them, in his mind that’s probably not a contradiction. It’s just that he has to do it for some other priority and is trying to serve two masters.

    The human mind is capable of the most remarkable contradictions, and the demands of power insitutionalize those contradictions. And this only brings home the dangers of a religious mind without a true moral anchor. To the Republicans, the ends always justify the means, regardless of the collateral damage of those means. This is of a piece with their recent shredding of the Consitution. Even if there’s a logical contradiction, they can entertain it if it gets them what they want – which, by the way, is always more power. Vote November 7!

  • Try: George the Evangelical Necon.

    I think Bush really does believe everything he says, while his owners are behind the curtain snickering to themselves over the Prime Fool they have out there on stage as the front man.

    It makes him more pathetic than anything else, but it’s proper that the one and only true believer in the pack is the one who gets shot.

  • It’s my impression that Bush is contemptuous of everyone. That’s his mindset. It’s his weak ego at work. He’s POTUS Piece of Theo-User Shit.

  • But he’s an “easy” christian. All he, and many of the evanglical types, has to do is proclaim himselves saved then he becomes righteous and everyhing he does is with god’s backing and design. Petarado # 20.

    Precisely. This is why we watch people of this sort very carefully, with some sort of weapon close at hand.

    Thinking about this some more I wonder who God is to Bush? I think Bush at least started with the indulgent daddy model of God, and no wonder. That bastard’s led an extraordinarily charmed life. I bet there are very few times when he didn’t get exactly what he wanted. That stunned look on September 11, 2001, could well be the expression of a man thinking “I didn’t want this to happen, so how can it be happening?”

    I think that may have pushed him to the point where Bush II now sees God’s face when he looks in the mirror. He saw he couldn’t rely on that other god so he took over. We know coke fiends are prone to delusions of grandeur. Now we may well have a president who thinks the following: God is infallible. I am god. Therefore I’m infallible.

    Prepare ye for the smiting of the unbelievers.

  • More on Bush’s weak ego. It seems that with the evangelicals, as with many other groups, he tries to buy their friendship or at least approval just like any insecure rich kid. And who is richer than the POTUS with the entire US Treasury to spend?

    Imagine how all the adulation might affect someone with such self-doubts. It would tend to be such a disconnect with his own true feelings about his unworthiness as to push him toward ever more contempt to those he has fooled.

    On the other hand thinking of himself as on a Mission from God would be another sap for his ego. It seems like a straight forward ego-compensation process with all the dicotomies that that implies.

    Or maybe he’s just an asshole.

  • I agree with Cyrus at #10, although I lean more heavily towards Bush being a con-artist and sham than devout man of faith.

    The thing that surprises me is the shoulder shrugging Kuo’s book seems to elicit from the religious right. Besides a few jabs at Kuo being a closeted liberal and a new member of the “Axis of Evil,” there isn’t much outrage at being played for suckers by the Republicans.

    I suspect the leading lights of the Christian conservative movement — James Dobson, Tony Perkins, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Bob Jones — have known Bush is playing a game all along. And yet they continue to play along and get played. If nothing else, their worldview and organizations get a fair hearing in what passes for policy formation with this administration. Having the ear of the White House and Republican Congress allows them to pass themselves off as the face of mainstream Christianity to the media and tout their “accomplishments” and prestige to their followers. It’s a marriage of convenience.

    But I don’t doubt for a minute there aren’t going to be serious repercussions for the GOP, the country and Christian conservatives because of the fraud Bush and the theocrats have been conducting over the last six years. “The base” isn’t going to have their dreams of a “Christian” nation thwarted for much longer without looking for alternatives.

  • My question I guess is deeper: If he really will do whatever it takes to get his way, then what is his ultimate goal? The ultimate christian paradise? An unbridgable class divide? Could it be both, or are they mutually exclusive? If he didn’t need the religious right for their support, would the religious rhetoric still be there? If I had one question I could ask the president, I would ask “You’ve worked very feverently to amass more power than any executive since FDR. What are you going to do with it?”

  • I suspect that Falwell is contemptuous of Robertson and Robertson is contemptuous of Dobson and Dobson is contemptuous of Bush and around and around in that “Christian” circle of jerks.

  • Shruby is neither X-tian nor Neo-con. His, (and Cheney’s), church is the corporation. The holy grail is getting as much cash as possible into the hands of an aristocracy. He really is an amoral man.

    The stock market just went over 12,000. There is no other standard by which Shruby measures his success. He and his rich peers are getting richer and everything else is just background noise.

    Shrubweh is a charlatan for the cause of corporatism.

  • Geo2 is a puppet. When the monied Repubs saw the surplus they went to Congress and demanded the money. The Repub Congress told them they couldn’t with a Dem Prersident. They said “here’s all the money you need , get us a “Happy Face” and get this thing done. You know the rest.
    Geo2 can raise a lot of money because he has done just what the crooked Repubs wanted. HE DELIVERED! The surplus is gone plus the new deficit is indebted and look where it has gone. This has been above all else, the greatest money scam in the history of the US. He is neither a Baptist or a neo-con. He’s a facilatator. All the rest has been a diversion.

  • Swan (# 21) explains a lot. I, too, spent many hours in church when younger. I don’t darken its door now because of the same hypocrisy Swan mentions. Hypocrisy, in fact, is most pronounced in fundamentalist churches. “Holier than thou” is the order of the day of rest. This sort of thing fits Bush like a glove. Pious one minute, vicious the next. And extremely judgemental.

    I have no quarrel with spirituality and faith, but I avoid organized religion because it is too often undermined by political and social agendas. A prime example is the linkage between religion and patriotism. “God mit uns,” as Ed says. God, apparently, is an American (except when he’s a German, etc.) and a Republican.

    I think Bush goes to church because he thinks he must. And while in church, he’s a Christian man. When he leaves the sanctuary, he’s back to being George Bush, a man who can and does rationalize un-Christian behaviour.

    Regarding CB’s question, I’m not sure that Bush is a theo-con, neo-con, true believer, or cynic in his religious beliefs and rhetoric. I think he simply reflects a majority of “automatic” church-goers. He covers his metaphysical ass.

  • If he didn’t need the religious right for their support, would the religious rhetoric still be there?

    Comment by Stephen

    No. The amount of attention they got would be predicated on their ability to affect an election. Shruby has been marketed like a can of Pepsi ever since Rove saw his Howdy Doody knight in shining leather and kicker boots.

    How much “profit”, (votes), can be squeezed from a certain demographic? Obviously, with enough lies and feigned sanctimony, the believers were a very profitable play for ShrubCo.

  • Why would Bush have a deep spiritual life when all other aspects of the man are so painfully shallow? When Jesus is a republican, then it’s Christianity lite.

  • Jon Karak’s comment at #23 may be justified by the administration’s outward displays, to the extent Bush shows signs of supporting evangelicalism, pushes goals the evangelicals would support along, and maintains his ties.

    But I think we can still ask, in light of those outward facts, the extent to which Bush is sincere in his beliefs and the extent to which he’s really inwardly motivated by evangelicalism. What I might have to concede to Jon Karak is the sincerity. I really don’t know how sincere Bush’s belief is. But I might be right about that, and Bush might not actually be that sincere despite the outward signs.

    However, what I think we have to acknowledge is Bush is not really as motivated by evangelicalism as much as people thought he was, no matter whether he’s sincere or not; I think what mostly motivates him is his social set and the expectations they have of him. He might really be motivated by evangelicalism, but it might be really number 6 or number 8 on the list of things that motivate him. I think if you pick up Kuo’s book that’s what you’ll find and I think that’s what people are really talking about.

  • All along, I’ve said I don’t know which is scarier: That Bush believes the drivel that he’s spouting, or that he doesn’t.

    That applies to everything, not just religious leanings.

  • #39 Why would Bush have a deep spiritual life when all other aspects of the man are so painfully shallow? When Jesus is a republican, then it’s Christianity lite.

    Comment by kali

    Excellent point. George Bush is a shallow pool without a deep end. He’s a Sunday morning Christian who cheats all week.

  • as i said on a thread long ago, people overanalyze Dumbya. the bottom line is he is simply just a sick f***.

    theocrat? faith-indifferent charlatan?
    that is an effort to compare the wrong two terms.
    you want some Bush-appropriate terms to reconcile?
    “anti-intellectual” and “power-craving”

    Those two explain all the rest. He will say whatever is necessary to obtain and maintain the most power. Does he really believe it when he says pious things? maybe, although it really doesn’t matter. He may believe it because he has it so over-simplified that it can still fit his power-mad schemes. His view of reality, of faith, of good, or evil is so one-diminsional and non-nuanced that the pieces fit together for him. It is like he looked at a jigsaw puzzle, decided “it’s hard work!” and so he just got out the scissors and cut every piece into an identical square. Now, he’s pretty smart – he can put the puzzle together! and the piece labelled “theocrat” fits just fine next to the one labelled “snake-oil salesman”!

    really, lets work less hard on figuring this Rethuglican disaster and harder on voting it out.

  • In The Prince, Machiavelli states that the ruler must observe the outer signs of religious observance in order to keep the hearts of those simple people who believe. On the other hand, he said, if he really believes that stuff himself he isn’t fit to lead. Unfortunately, Our Leader comes nowhere near being as subtle or as rational as Machiavelli. Ruthless, yes.

  • Burro (#35) really says it well. The Power and Religion is Corporatism. Bush is what he has always been: a mean-spirited spoiled brat who is (Wall) street smart and an ideal image for Corporatism to use in enslaving others.

    Are some of the neo-cons really pro-business and the religious leaders really what they present? Or are they out to Destroy business, established religion and conservatism? In any event, that seems to be the result of their actions. Maybe this is why so many conservative and main stream business and religious people are falling out if not actually turning against them.

    Wouldn’t this be a time to strike for a more progressive and just nation and world by those wanting a social democracy? While the opposition is in disarray, many people open to new solutions and the image of corporatism losing some luster?

    A time to push for the national and global recognition of the ownership of the resources by and for the people. If we don’t take advantage of this opportunity then the market worship could revive and strengthen its slavery on everyone or be replaced by an anti-human Soviet style system.

  • I like Ed Stephan’s Machiavelli take on Bush.

    Here’s my Disney Robin Hood take:

    King Richard is Al Gore the rightful king off fighting the good fight
    Prince John is Bush of course,
    Sir Hiss is Karl rove
    Sheriff of Notthingham used to be Tom Delay. Maybe now it’s Alberto Gonzales.
    Friar Tuck went bad and is Jerry Falwell
    Lady Kluck is Peggy Noonan, without Kluck’s sophistication
    Maid Marion is Bo Derek but she’s very confused.
    The Merry Men are the Democrats (Merry Persons?)
    Robin Hood is missing in action

  • Where’s the conflict or confusion? I’ve never assumed that Dubya is the most pious Christian possible. I believe that he fits the mode of evangelicals and fundamentalists that Kevin Phillips describes in “American Theocracy”. There are individuals among evangelicals and fundamentalists (Tom DeLay is a another good example) who think nothing of laying down the (moral, religious) law for others while also breaking it themselves to achieve what they want. Their belief in the forgiveness of Jesus Christ allows them to believe that whatever they do is forgiven just because they are supposedly followers. But they use their religion to advance their personal goals and issues. The religion becomes secondary. Of course, having been forgiven, they forget that there also is an expectation of repentance (“go and sin no more”) to accompany that forgiveness.

    Regardless of whether Dubya’s religiousity is sincere or politically pretentious, the fear of a real and rising theocratic movement is justified. While I do care whether motivations behind it are sincere or not, the movement and its effects are still real. That is the bottomline that we should all be concerned with.

  • You can emphasize a contradiction if you force the question as “is Bush a pious theocrat or a cynical charlatan?”, but partly there are other things going on, and partly Bush is in any case a walking contradiction full of cognitive dissonance. You can see this in how he apparently sincerely talks up democracy, human rights, and religious freedom in terms of what Iraq should have, but tramples all over the same ideals domestically when they get in his way, which seems to be always.

    He’s got the overall attitude of a believer and a rightwing ideologue, but he’s very shallow in both, and he also has other priorities. His highest duty appears to be to himself (formerly to his father & family, but he emerged from his father’s shadow), and then to the very rich and highly privileged, then to his cronies and his class, and only afterwards to his politics and his religion, although I’m sure he thinks it’s exactly the opposite. I think this happens because he is intellectually shallow and lazy (rather than stupid), so he doesn’t think out the contradictions between what he says and what he does. If he was truly self-aware and thoughtful, we wouldn’t have spent the last six years living out a combined Freudian psychodrama and Shakespearian tragedy.

    Bush apparently considers that he’s a good christian and that the religious right has the most proper view (he’s doing god’s work and has been appointed by god). Since he runs on gut instinct and isn’t reflective, he simply doesn’t bother to notice the contradictions, either before the fact or after. I think he just short-circuits along the lines of “X seems good, so I want X. I want X, so X is good. Since I’m doing god’s work, X is therefore a good and decent thing. America is good, so whatever America does is right. End of discussion, because I’m the leader, and leaders don’t discuss: they decide.”

    Regardless, the most important point here is that, whether he’s pious or not, the bones that he throws to the religious right endanger the foundations and fabric of American society.

  • “Bush cannot be a pious theocrat and an indifferent-to-faith charlatan at the same time.”

    Sure he can. Can you spell, Elmer Gantry?

    The particular strain of religiosity, which Mr. Bush appeals most strongly to, is a strain, which has always thrived on hypocrisy, and whose commitment to Christian principles of compassion and probity has always been weak. Look at the religious leaders themselves — Dobson, Falwell, Pat Robertson(!)

    Conservative evangelicals are, by no means a monolithic bloc, but they, also, are not particularly noted for living a life of deep ethical commitment. It is not an accident that the great moments of adultery as political theatre over the last 20 years have mostly involved Southern Baptists.

    Conservative evangelicals are mostly committed to authoritarianism, and their religion is mostly just repackaged resentment: a way of feeling good about themselves and their communities, while projecting evil and dysfunction onto others far away in the nasty ol’ cities and liberal coasts. It is the same faux populism marketed by O’Reilly and Limbaugh to the secular Republican base of ignoramuses, but in shiny religious packaging.

    One thing Bush has a real personal commitment to, is arrogant ignorance and self-justification without self-awareness. That’s his religion, and it is a religion he shares with the conservative evangelicals, who see themselves in him.

  • If he really will do whatever it takes to get his way, then what is his ultimate goal?

    Stephen @ 33

    Getting his way is the ultimate goal. It (and he) really is that simple. Your common-or-garden despot has more in common with a spoiled toddler* than any semi-rational adult. Call it lust or greed or what have you, Bush just wants. “Gimme power, gimme war, gimme money, gimme attention, gimme gimme gimme!” While he might ask “How can I get X?” and be quite cunning about getting X it never occurs to him to ask “Should I want X?”

    “You’ve worked very feverently to amass more power than any executive since FDR. What are you going to do with it?”

    The answer could well be “Ah’m goin’ to Dizney Land! Yeehaaw!”

    tAiO

    * No offense to spoiled toddlers and other ankle biters.

  • Bush is both a neocon and a Christer. The two are not incompatible. The neocons hope to hurry things along in terms of Apocalypic predictions while getting all the loot they possibly can for themselves and their friends before Jesus comes to smite the wicked and whisk them off to heaven.
    Bush’s indifference to funding for the faith-based groups, and the fact that they’d surely not seen the $8 billion or so he’d promised (according to Kuo’s book) comes down to the fact that this rotten excuse for a man hasn’t got many braincells to rub together. When Cheney told him that they would be getting the funding any day now, Bush was happy as he could be and went off to brief the group of Christian supplicants waiting for him, leaving Kuo and his fellow committee members sitting there open-mouthed.
    Bush is stupid and mindless, devout and greedy. I can’t think of a scarier combination.

  • Ultimately, Bush is a creature of the Republican machine that made him, and he is a product – as others note above – of an opportunistic and shamelessly entitlement-oriented political family that knows how to use the connections it makes. I seem to recall that no-less an observer of the American religious/political scene than Billy Graham has said that Bush himself does not know if he is a religious person who uses politics in the furtherance of religion or a politician who uses religion in the furtherance of politics. Given who made Bush and who shaped him as a person, I am not nearly as ambivalent as Rev. Graham. Politics comes first because it serves the goal of delivering more wealth and political power to those in this country who already have plenty of both (Bush’s family along with the Cheney clan are at the head of the line).

    Bush will further religious goals as long as they do not get in the way of the Republican prime directive of plutocracy. Blurring the lines separating church and state with respect to things that do not bear upon strengthing the plutocracy – and which may be positions that Bush himself holds – are fine. Allowing school-sponsored / mandated prayer, criminalizing private sexual relations between consenting adults, denying civil rights of gay couples, proscrribing a woman’s right to control her biological fate, directing funding to religious organizations who can discrimate based upon its religious beliefs, etc. do not hinder the plutocracy. Rather, it nurtures it because it feeds its political partner, the Religious Right. But, cutting loose billions of dollars to address poverty – well that’s another matter. Any significant government spending under Bush is going to feed the plutocracy (Halliburton, I’m looking at you) – the true wire pullers of the Republican machine.

    Amy Sullivan should worry about the “cognitive dissonance” of Evangelicals. They are the ones who should be asking questions about who / what George Bush really is. They are the ones to whom she should be directing her “they are so consumed by their …” homilies. Kuo’s book is the second time he has revealed the cynicisms with which Bush treats his connections to people of “faith” (I think a more proper term is people of “highly structured and dogmatic, institutionalized religion). The best they can hope to finish in the contest for Bush’s political fealty is “also ran.”

  • “You’ve worked very feverently to amass more power than any executive since FDR. What are you going to do with it?”

    The answer could well be “Ah’m goin’ to Dizney Land! Yeehaaw!”

    tAiO

    LOL Then later he emotes, “You hate me. You really really hate me.”

    Amy Sullivan should worry about the “cognitive dissonance” of Evangelicals. They are the ones who should be asking questions about who / what George Bush really is. They are the ones to whom she should be directing her “they are so consumed by their …”
    Comment by TuiMel

    Well said, TuiMel. The Reichers are all about Cog-Diss. They never experienced the ‘breakdown of their bicameral minds’. Their spiritual commands are out there. Any bad thoughts are out there. It’s their own heaven and hell. Precognitive dissonance I guess.

  • #44 & #46, if you read the Alternet article, you’ll see that Leo Strauss’ — and the neocons’ –ideals are based on Machiavelli.

    First time I read that entry and sat and did nothing but stare for 5 minutes — it’s all playing out.

    http://alternet.org/story/15935/

  • This apparent contradiction is easily reconcilable because the scary thing is not Bush the Baptist or Bush the Neocon but Bush the Sociopath. All of the Bush brothers share that disease, and it means that they think of the external world as simply something to be manipulated for their own gratification. Yes, Bush will promote theocracy in every area not involving capital since that keeps the base in line. But that is not inconsistent with thinking the base are idiots. It is what sociopaths do.

  • All of the Bush brothers share that disease, and it means that they think of the external world as simply something to be manipulated for their own gratification. — pjcamp, @ #55

    While I find “manipulated” a somewhat wimpy and over-PC euphemism for “rape”, I think you’re right on substance.

  • Is Bush is a True Believer or a NeoCon? I don’t know that he is anything. He hasn’t been anything, except the son of George HW Bush and brother to Jeb Bush, for his entire life. He seems more of an empty vessel with a small hole at the bottom that is used by anyone until the hole leaks whatever out.

  • “More on Bush’s weak ego. It seems that with the evangelicals, as with many other groups, he tries to buy their friendship or at least approval just like any insecure rich kid. And who is richer than the POTUS with the entire US Treasury to spend?” – Dale

    One quote I remember from the discussion of Kuo’s book is about how the Bushites would give Evangelicals Tax Payer money, and then teach them how to turn it around and give it to Republican’ts to lobby for more Tax Payer money. How much ends up in the hands of the poor versus how much ends up in the hands of Republican’t politicians to spend on campaigns. It’s just a money laundering operation.

    “Robin Hood is missing” – Dale

    Remember that John was ruling as regent for quite a while before things got so bad that Robin of Lockesley went outlaw and joined the “merry men”, who are also just a bunch of outlaws (what we would call today civil disobdients) who ran afoul of John’s laws and officials. Really, we don’t want things to get so bad that we need a Robin Hood.

    “True-believer or cynic?” – CB

    I think Bush is a fake. No one who was a true Christian would say that he wouldn’t know the verdict of History after he died. He just “embraced” religion to be with his reformed murderess librarian girlfriend. Neither is real, but only the shallow “I’ve been saved” kind of Sunday morning Christians.

    And any True Christian with a ounce of sense would fight tooth and nail against establishing a Theocracy in this country, as they should know that it will just mean death and destruction as the One True American Christian Church gets into some stupid religious schism over some stupid religious doctrine.

    I mean, can you really imagine killing people over whether “The Holy Spirit” is a divine being that existed forever and is one of three but also part of the only one God? But that is exactly what the first millenium Catholic Church did because it wanted to be a State Church. Don’t you think Jesus cried over that one?

    Have you ever actually read the Apostle’s Creed or the Nician Creed? That’s what happens when you create Theocracies.

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