More troops (in 2003) vs. more troops (in 2007)

As a rule, I generally ignore Jonah Goldberg’s columns — they’re hardly worth responding to — but his argument today has become increasingly common among conservatives, and therefore needs to be shot down quickly and thoroughly.

Here we have a president forthrightly trying to win a war, and the opposition — which not long ago was in favor of increasing troops, when Bush was against that — won’t say what it wants. This is flatly immoral. If you believe the war can’t be won and there’s nothing to be gained by staying, then, to paraphrase Sen. John Kerry, you’re asking more men to die for a mistake. You should demand withdrawal. But that might cost votes, so the Dems don’t. And, of course, Kerry, Pelosi and other Democrats were in favor of more troops before they were against it.

The Wall Street Journal editorial board made a nearly identical argument today.

You might have thought President Bush’s announcement yesterday that he intends to deploy several thousand more combat soldiers to Iraq would have been sweet policy vindication for the Democrats. They’re the ones who spent the better part of the past four years using Eric Shinseki — the former Army Chief of Staff who, prior to the war, estimated it would take up to half a million troops to occupy the country — as a cudgel with which to beat this President over the head.

Thus former House minority leader, now Speaker Nancy Pelosi, citing General Shinseki in May 2004, on “Meet the Press”: “What I’m saying to you, [is] that we need more troops on the ground.”

See? Those dastardly Dems said they want more troops. Now that Bush is giving them what they asked for, they’re complaining! How outrageous!

Please. I had hoped common sense would dictate slightly better analysis than what Goldberg and the WSJ have come up with, but this latest argument is not only wrong, it’s ridiculous.

Let’s set the record straight. Most congressional Dems didn’t want Bush to invade Iraq, but if the president was going to pursue this course, he should do so with the necessary number of troops, not some kind of Rumsfeld-inspired slimmed-down force that would fulfill some neocon fantasy.

The fact that Dems wanted a larger fighting force a couple of years ago does not mean they’re contradicting themselves when they reject troop escalation now. The prior position was about an effective occupation. That stage is long over, and has been replaced with a civil war.

Goldberg argues that Dems favored more troops “not long ago.” Kevin Drum explained why this is just not true, either.

In fact, if by “not long ago” Goldberg means sometime in the past year, then he’d be hard pressed to find more than a handful of Democrats — Pelosi and Kerry certainly not among them — who even came close to suggesting we send more troops to Iraq. The Reed-Levin amendment, calling for a phased withdrawal to begin in 2006, garnered the support of 38 out of 44 Democratic senators when it was put to a vote last June. In the House, I don’t think the Republican leadership ever allowed a vote on a similar resolution, but on the resolution they did allow a vote on, three-quarters of House Dems supported a phased withdrawal even though the resolution was worded to make virtual traitors out of anyone who voted that way.

It’s certainly true that Democrats have not all been of one mind about the Iraq war. But “in favor of increasing troops”? Please.

I realize the president’s speech last night was a dud, and the “new” policy is likely to fail. But if the right is stuck with this as their best argument the day after the “new way forward” is unveiled, they may as well give up now.

What was that phrase again, that was thrown at the Dems for the better part of last year…..ummm…..just a second…….Cut and Runners. That’s it. Cut and Run Dems. I guess that phrase means they wanted to add troops. Maybe the republicants meant cut and paste dems.

  • Just more of the same dishonesty from a crowd that has absolutely no shame. This is sort of an inverse of the classic Rove tactic of hitting your opponent on his greatest strength. Instead, it is hit your opponent on your greatest weakness.

    These jokers must realize that Bush has now committed the Kerry-esque sin of flip-flopping in a most egregious way. Less than 6 months ago, he was flatly opposed to increasing the number of troops in Iraq. Now, after having no way to proceed that has not already been suggested by someone with whom he doesn’t want to agree (i.e., dems, Iraq Study Group, anyone with any common sense), he has to adopt a position that he vociferously opposed on numerous occasions within the past year.

  • you know, as quickly as they set that meme up, one might suspect the entire surge tactic was a political ploy to try and score partisan points against Dems. But one would have to be pretty dishonorable to do such a thing while our men and women in uniform are in harm’s way, so I’m sure no one in this administration or MSM would do such a thing. Oh no.

  • Goldberg and the WSJ are on a fool’s parade! When any entity thinks from its projected vested interest outward, the historical record is inconsequential. These fools want American military might projected in this region because, presumably, it will lead to a stable flow of oil as an energy source so vital to our economy. They want an end to Islamic challenges to our “Western values,” and they want so desparately to see their man succeed. From this core of vested interests, they can weave any tapestry of evidence to justify their efforts.

    Well, Goldberg and WSJ, you are wrong on your facts, you are wrong on your perspectives, and you are wrong in regard to history! Though I live in a secular society, I still have the right to pray to the god of my choice for these fools to eventually become enlightened enough to truly see the damage this presidental administration has done to our collective heritage here in America. I’m still praying! -Kevo

  • It’s encouraging that this argument is the best they can come up with at this point. It leads one to believe that, in spite of the endless tragedy they have caused, we might actually be on our way to returning to a point where we can actually have an honest debate. Of course, that’s probably too optimistic.

  • Why not just point out Bush’s own admission that there weren’t enough troops to start with to prove that the Dems were right all along and that majority opinion says this latest attempt is “too little too late”?
    “Our past efforts to secure Baghdad failed for two principal reasons: There were not enough Iraqi and American troops to secure neighborhoods that had been cleared of terrorists and insurgents, and there were too many restrictions on the troops we did have.”
    – Pres. Bush, 1-10-07
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011002208_pf.html

  • Bu$h, that goddamned draft dodging coward, had ordered troop buildup before his speech last night, and troops are already arriving in Baghdad. Regardless of OVERWHELMING evidence that this ‘surge’ won’t work, he continues on, obviously in a sociopathic ‘surge’ of his own to save what is left of his supposed ‘legacy’. Is one drop of blood in the sand worth this man’t legacy? How many more kids will die in Iraq to satisfy his adolescent egotistical impulses? I have never actually truly hated another person until now. He needs to be removed – in any way- from office. Only then will this madness stop.

  • I think Pat Buchanan brought up a better criticism last night than Goldberg does here, which was that, if Dems are opposed to the war and if they agree with Kerry that having any soldier die for a mistaken policy is immoral, then the failure to pull the funding for the whole Iraqi venture is immoral.

    There is a certain political expediency to just allowing Bush to figure this shit out by himself and the Dems saying “hey, it’s not our mess.” Let’s call a spade a spade. That said, I don’t think Dems should be faulted for not taking a potentially politically suicidal step in de-funding the war, one that would certainly take away any “strong on national security” bona fides they’ve been able to gain in the past year.

    Much as in Iraq, a political solution is required here and that entails taking first things first, e.g., the Senate Resolution, Kennedy’s bill, etc.

  • Much is being made of Bush’s so-called “apology.” From what I recall, he said “If mistakes were made, they are my responsibility.”

    Not much of an apology. If I apologized like that to my wife, I’d get a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick to the head.

  • I think you are right re: removal, c_p, as all I could think last night during his speech was “the man is begging to be impeached…he is literally calling out the Dems to start the process.”

  • Ed Stephan,

    George Walker Bush’s “new way forward” is merely “digging the hole slightly deeper”.

    Best. Summary. Ever.

  • Rian (Re#6):
    “..an honest debate”?
    With these people?
    Man, what are you smoking? Must be really good for that to have slipped out.
    In my experience, if someone lies to you once, they will lie again and again. I’m hard pressed to think of ANYTHING truthful that has ever come from this band of criminals. They won’t be honest, ever. Period.

  • I’m beginning to wonder Bush and his minions actually want congress to cut funding. There’s no way out. As we’ve been told by just about every policy and military expert on the planet, Iraq can’t be won militarily. Every day the war drags on is slow death for the repubs in general, and neocons more specifically. If they admit defeat, they lose. If they can get the Dems to cut the funding, their Iraq problem goes away with the Dems (they hope) painted as opposing the troops.

    What else could this insane escalation, and the wingnut commentary hope to achieve?

  • Riddle: What do Fidel Castro and the neoconservatives have in common?
    Answer: The reports of their deaths were greatly exaggerated.

    Last night we saw the neocons were alive and kicking and still in control. The thumping in November ’06 doesn’t mean squat yet, unless we keep the pressure on the Dems…

  • How does Goldberg and the WSJ get off saying the Dems are all about troop increases when they have been labeling the Democratic Party as cut and run defeatists for years? The Dems have been saying since 2003 that the war was flawed from the get go, with Rumsfeld’s doctrine of going in with the least number of troops possible being one of the biggest initial screw-ups.

    The Dems have been saying that with Bush’s failed prosecution of the war, this is a situation where you can’t unsh*t the bed. Trying to get closer to a sufficient number of troops at this stage will do no good other than keeping funeral color guards very busy. Pelosi’s 2004 comment was appropriate for 2004, but it’s 2007 now and the world has changed. For the WSJ to compare Dem’s support for Gen. Shinseki’s request for somewhere in the neighborhood of 500,000 in 2003 and their scoffing at Bush raising total troop levels in theater to still less than 200,000 in 2007 is a failure of logic.

    Goldberg chides he Democrats for not hanging an appropriate target to aim his derision at by saying its “flatly immoral” to not have a simple buzzword to frame the Democratic perspective. Yet in his article he says, “(Bush) wisely refused to abdicate his war responsibilities to lead to the Iraq Study Group, and instead launched a broader effort to find a way to win in Iraq — a goal former Secretary of State James A. Baker III explicitly dismissed.” It doesn’t matter what the Dems postulate, the boy king won’t listen anyway. All Goldberg is asking is for the Democrats to be an easier target for right wing buffoons to knock down.

  • Oh Petorado, there you go again expecting consistency, rationality, or even a sense of shame – however miniscule – from the neocons and other assorted rethugs.

  • This is the right-wing talking point du jour that was conjured up long before this speech, I’m sure. I’ve been listening to Fat Limbaugh and he’s been hitting this point often. If I’m not mistaken, Hannity was talking about this yesterday afternoon, before the speech even happened.

  • How much do you want to bet that Bush will lay the inevitable (current) failure of Iraq at the feet of the Democrats if they defund his latest attempt? Kissinger has been doing just that for that last 4 decades: (to paraphrase) If only they hadn’t made us leave, we would have eventually achieved victory.

  • Please. I had hoped common sense would dictate slightly better analysis than what Goldberg and the WSJ have come up with, but this latest argument is not only wrong, it’s ridiculous.

    But not, sadly, as ridiculous as hoping common sense would dictate slightly better analysis than what Goldberg and the WSJ have come up with.

  • How much do you want to bet that Bush will lay the inevitable (current) failure of Iraq at the feet of the Democrats if they defund his latest attempt?

    Bush and his neocon cronies will attempt lay the inevitable (current) failure of Iraq at the feet of the Democrats regardless of whether they defund his latest attempt.

    Hell, various comment trolls have been pushing the Dolschtosslegende for a good long time now. Which just goes to show they know in their heart of hearts that Bush’s Excellent Adventure is a lost cause.

  • These people will never understand that we wanted more troops to start because most of us knew what Rummy was proposing to send in wasn’t going to be enough. We wanted more troops when it was obvious (except for the Bush-bots) that we were right and there weren’t enough troops but when more troops may have made a bit of a difference. We don’t want more troos now because we know it won’t help and because the so called “plan” is another half-assed attempt – and a political one at that – that is doomed because the administration has done little right.

  • Here’s everything you need to know about Goldberg: He uses words like “forthrightly.”

    So fuck him.

    I’ve no doubt that he and and the Wank Streak Journal and other brain deads will continue to chirp that everything will be OK if we just send a few more soldiers and spend a little more money and wait a bit longer and clap a bit harder and any failures will be blamed on:

    1. The Democrats for not bowing down to the Chimperor.
    2. The American people who voted the Rethuglican Congress out.
    3. The Iraqis for not “stepping up to the plate” (or some other dumbass sports cliche).

    I find it hard to care. We know they’re going to lie, most people have enough sense to know they’re lying and for those who don’t, fuck them too. I’m sick of wilfully ignorant folks and frankly, sick of polititians who pander to the willfully ignorant.

  • Republican Auto Maintenance

    Democrat: You better put oil in that engine.
    Republican: I’m not going to use oil. I’m going to run light and nimble.
    Democrat: You’re going to wreck your engine. You better add oil.

    Democrat: I see you burned up your engine.
    Republican: I’m going to add oil now.
    Democrat: You don’t need oil now. It won’t help.
    Republican: Typical Democrat flip-flopper. You were for oil before you were against it.

  • bobcn – Please post comment #26 far and wide. Best explanation of the zaniness of the surge I’ve read yet.

  • to petorado – Thanks, but maybe I need to change the analogy. Bush has always been for oil.

  • “The fact that Dems wanted a larger fighting force a couple of years ago does not mean they’re contradicting themselves when they reject troop escalation now.”

    Okay. Maybe you could make a reasonable argument that that’s the case. But to point out that the positions seem inconsistent is hardly “ridiculous.”

  • Goldberg has responded… Difficult to overstate how feeble the reponse is, but here’s the link so you can read it for yourself.

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MWFmYTUwNzQwOGYzZjc3MTFhN2I2MjkzYjFiOGVkYWY=

    Couple of highlights:

    – Steve – get out the hankies – Jonah doesn’t regard you as a “serious guy”.

    – Democrats, who back in 2004 said more troops were needed to stabilize Iraq, were “Monday morning quarterbacking”.

    – Jonah crybaby moment: How dare someone else try to define “not long ago” in entirely reasonable terms.

    And of course, Jonah couldn’t help but resurrect another canard by saying Harry Reid had flip-flopped on the surge. Even dumb-asses like me understood Reid’s key point: that he was open to all ideas – including a very short-term surge – if it would meet his core aim to bring troops home by 2008. So the fact Chimp’s latest plan met none of Reid’s preconditions made Reid’s position rejection of it entirely consistent with what he had previously said.

    Anyhoo, with all things regarding wingnut stupidity, must end on a Colbert note. Remember this from “not long ago”:

    “The greatest thing about this man is he’s steady. You know where he stands. He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday.”

    I hope Jonah knows that when we laugh at this quip, we are laughing at him.

  • AP Breaking News

    Bush Critics Call for More Troops in Iraq

    By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

    Thursday, June 30, 2005

    (06-30) 09:08 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) —

    Congressional critics of President Bush’s stay-the-course commitment to the war in Iraq argued Wednesday that the administration lacks sufficient troops on the ground to mount a successful counterinsurgency.

    …Sen. John Kerry, Bush’s Democratic opponent in last year’s presidential election, told NBC’s “Today” show that the borders of Iraq “are porous” and said “we don’t have enough troops” there.

    Sen. Joseph Biden Jr., appearing on ABC’s “Good Morning America,” disputed Bush’s notion that sufficient troops are in place.

    “I’m going to send him the phone numbers of the very generals and flag officers that I met on Memorial Day when I was in Iraq,” the Delaware Democrat said. “There’s not enough force on the ground now to mount a real counterinsurgency.”

    Biden argued, “The course that we are on now is not a course of success. He (Bush) has to get more folks involved. He has to stand up that army more quickly.”

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/29/national/w075030D43.DTL

  • Comments are closed.