Sunday Discussion Group

As presidential campaigns go, most aides have historically been invisible and irrelevant. One might occasionally find a human-interest profile in a local paper about a hometown native getting a job with a big-time candidate, but the general rule has always been that behind-the-scenes types were of no real interest to the public, better yet to professional journalists.

That, obviously, has changed, as evidenced by the controversy surrounding John Edwards’ two bloggers this week. For better or worse, the story not only struck a chord, it also seems to have re-written the rules a bit. The “incident,” for lack of a better word, is still fresh, but there are a number of angles to the controversy worth considering in more detail.

For example, Jonathan Chait asks whether the story was a positive or negative development for the medium as it relates to campaigns and employment.

I’m sort of late to this story, but one thing struck me about the John Edwards blogger brouhaha. After Edwards appeared ready to fire bloggers whose writing had become a point of controversy, other bloggers threatened to oppose Edwards in the primary. Then when he relented, they celebrated it as a crucial moment for the legitimacy of bloggers in mainstream politics.

But will this open doors to bloggers being hired by campaigns? My guess is, just the opposite. What this episode demonstrated is that, if you’re a candidate, hiring a blogger may or may not win you the loyalty of that blogger’s friends. But firing that blogger will certainly bring their wrath down upon you. But campaigns, of course, fire staffers pretty often. So why would you hire somebody you can’t fire?

True? And if so, how do candidates balance this with the desire to hire bloggers as a way to help garner support (and credibility) from the broader blogging community?

For that matter, there’s also the frequently overlooked question of whether the incident adversely affects the still-largely-unorganized “religious left.”

As the flap over alleged anti-Catholic writings by two John Edwards campaign bloggers devolves into a shouting match between conservative religious voices and liberal bloggers, some members of the “religious left” say they feel – again – shoved to the margins of the Democratic Party.

“We’re completely invisible to this debate,” said Eduardo Penalver, a Cornell University law professor who writes for the liberal Catholic journal Commonweal. He said he was dissatisfied with the Edwards campaign’s response. “As a constituency, the Christian left isn’t taken all that seriously,” Penalver said.

Democrats — and Edwards in particular — have embraced the language of faith and the imperative of competing with Republicans for the support of religious voters. His wife, Elizabeth Edwards, even sits on the board of the leading organization of the religious left, Call to Renewal. But in private conversations and careful public statements today, religious Democrats said they felt sidelined by Edwards’ decision to stand by his aides.

“We have gone so far to rebuild that coalition [between Democrats and religious Christians] and something like this sets it back,” said Brian O’Dwyer, a New York lawyer and Irish-American leader who chairs the National Democratic Ethnic Leadership Council, a Democratic Party group. O’Dwyer said Edwards should have fired the bloggers. “It’s not only wrong morally — it’s stupid politically.”

The story still seems to have broader questions than answers. Have bloggers won a key victory, or will campaigns prefer to keep their distance moving forward? Has the story somehow affected Democrats and the progressive faith community? Is this controversy a soon-to-be-forgotten blip, or is it the kind of story that will linger, annoyingly, for months?

But campaigns, of course, fire staffers pretty often. So why would you hire somebody you can’t fire?

That’s not really the point (that you can’t fire bloggers for any usual, legitimate reason, because they have friends with blogs), I think, because he’s not acknowledging the reason they were going to be fired. They were going to be fired as a cave to political pressure- to a stunt, really- from the other side. The bloggers who spoke up for them are the constituents Edwards is campaigning to win, but they’re vocal constituents. It only makes sense that you listen to their voices when they use them.

Edwards just shouldn’t have caved so easily, here. He gave the Republicans the result that they wanted, implicitly acknowledging that there was merit to their claims. We need to restore America to being a place where Freedom of Speech includes freedom to make tongue and cheek remarks and freedom to criticize powerful institutions (even religious insitutions) like the Catholic church, and not have absolutely no one, not even the people who are supposed to consider you valuable, sticking up for you, because of these weird conditions chilling speech that the Republicans have created.

  • I mean politically, it’s a bungle for Edwards. He showed himself as going back on his heels. The Republicans were looking around for things they could say because they didn’t have much to, and his first reaction to the first thing they come up with was to say “This sticks.” ???

    He could have given a strong statement of support for the Catholica church and showed himself as standing up to critics at the same time. It takes literally 0 effort and no political sacrifice to do this. Then the record of talking tough to the Republicans (when they made a silly attack, no less) could have been an asset he could fall back on when people are trying to make him look like he doesn’t have much wherewithal. The statement of support for the church could have been the first words out of his mouth if he wanted, followed by talking tough in the very next sentence.

  • The guy’s first reaction could have been to mention in a public statement that Limbaugh is calling us liberals cockroaches, and then talk about it in that context– rationalize it, explain it. They’re literally lobbing us these softballs, to use for public statements- come on, Edwards!

  • It will be interesting to see how candidates deal with bloggers. Blogging is a relatively new medium, and it has been interesting to see how traditional media are handling the blogging explosion. There is an intrinsic fear and perhaps hate of blogging, viewed as an upstart threat to established information outlets.

    I happen to think that blogs are helping to expand, yet at the same time restore, the legitimacy of the fourth estate–which has been abused and in question the past few years. Blogging is taking the world by storm, as more and more people recognize its potential for discussion and insight–and especially immediacy. Candidates that handle bloggers well (Edwards ultimately did the right thing) will likely see wide support–and vice versa–but in what population outside of bloggers and regulars remains to be seen, especially whether or not blogs can make enough noise. I think that they can (e.g., Lamont), and candidates ignore and/or disparage blogs/bloggers at their peril.

  • I have to agree with Swan that this isn’t about the ability to fire bloggers but the ability to stand up to the wingnut smear machine. Really, Edwards should have just gotten some of the more extreme quotes from this idiot and repeated them, then asked why conservatives think there are two sets of rules for this game.

    As for the religious left, STOP WHINING and do something real and then people will pay attention. What a pathetic excuse for people. If you want attention, first you vote out of proportion to your share of the populace, then they pay attention. African-Americans, Young People and the Religious Left all prove they don’t understand by complaining that no one pays their issues attention thus they don’t feel like voting.

    THAT’S BACKWARDS DUMBASSES!

  • You may think I sound harsh, and that from here on in it’s all Monday morning quarterbacking. But I just don’t think that, if I were in John Edwards’ position of starting out on this campaign, I would necessarily have fired someone for saying something, even if it was something that, if I’d known they wanted to say it before they said it, I would have advised them not to. And I do fully understand that there are a lot of decent Catholics in America. I’m not sure that the two people you’ve quoted at the end of your post are final evidence that Catholics are upset about this and they mostly can’t see through all the hype.

  • Terraformer: “I happen to think that blogs are helping to expand, yet at the same time restore, the legitimacy of the fourth estate. . . . ” I agree, at least as it applies to the progressive/liberal/sentient blogs. Right wing blogs, not so much. Further, I suspect that the more genuine a candidate is willing to be, as long as their positions fare under the bright blog lights, the better they will do as candidates, the better they will connect with a majority of the voters, and the better tneir relationship with the blogs will turn symbiotic in a way that amplifies their message.

    Just imagine if, as Swan suggested, Edwards had understood that Donohue’s attack was actually a huge opportunity to move his ball forward as a serious and tough candidate. The news stories would have been turned on their heads, and the blogs, many of which seem to rather like the guy, would have turned the whole affair into a triumph instead of a sign of political weakness.

  • To me this story was all about bullies and not knuckling under to them. The Edwards campaign could have handled it better (by doing their due diligence on the bloggers’ writings) but I’m glad they didn’t get bullied into firing them. Democrats have allowed themselves to be bullied far to often by the right-wing noise machine in recent years and this episode was a step toward reversing that. BTW, don’t be surprised if those bloggers are no longer employed by the Edwards campaign six months from now.

  • I may be old-fashioned, but I don’t believe religion has any business in politicas. The the First Amendment to our Constitution says so, and so doth the New Testament: “Render unto Caesar….

    I knew next to nothing (and cared even less) about the religious beliefs or non-beliefs of those I worked with in San Francisco politics in the late ’50s and early ’60s. The southern Fundamentalists began using their religious organization to impose their religious beliefs on our civil society after Brown v. Board of Education (1954) outlawed segregation. By the time of Roe v. Wade (1973) de-criminalizing abortion they were joined nationwide by Roman Catholics and Mormons. All these “religions” used their powerful, tax-free organizations in the effort to overturn judicial, legislative and executive decisions with which they happened to disagree.

    Republicans, hoping to harvest votes by being “open and accepting” of such (till then) un-American practices, concocted Nixon’s “southern strategy” which, thirty years later, culminated in George Walker Bush’s “strategery” of preaching the Fundamentalist doctrines wholesale and boldly incorporating them into a host of public laws with almost no legislative or judicial checks — faith-based operations, stem-cell research bans, the Terri Schiavo farce, hateful anti-gay constitutional amendments.

    The blogger blowup is just one tiny corner of the religious battlefield opened up in this country by the GOP and its pandering to knee-jerk myrmidonic so-called religions. I’m still idealistic enough to believe that most campaign “jobs” ought to be voluntary, spurred by the ideological or political aspirations of those who perform them. I can’t imagine anyone needing to “hire” a blogger, any more than you’d hire doorbell ringers or phone bank members (I know, I know: firms do that commercially now, too … ugh; the practice should be outlawed).

    I must say my enthusiasm for Johnny Reid Edwards took a serious hit over this flap.

  • The employment issue wasn’t about anything these two had done during the tenure of their employment; it consisted of punitive retaliation for Constitutionally-legitimized actions that took place prior to their being employed by the candidate in the first place. Had Edwards terminated these two, the reaction he would have found himself subjected to would have been both well-earned, and justified. In a nutshell, he could have probably kissed his campaign goodbye right then and there.

    The mere fact that he was apparently willing to cave to “the knuckle-draggers” in the first place causes me to doubt the integrity of his future performance as a potential C-in-C, and his ability to place his personal philosophies aside in order to serve the People and the Constitution as the duly-elected President of these United States—and I’ve been a rabid Edwards supporter for years. The man’s got some work to do, if he still wants my vote next year—starting with proving that he can be a “real” President, and not just some schmuck on a mission from whatever god he’s carrying around in his pocket.

    Politicians—and more specifically, candidates—need to wake up and smell the coffee. Bloggers are not like the MSM; they will not lie down with the corrupt; the dishonest; the tyrannical creatures who hold court in the realm of elected office for a few mere scraps. Bloggers—and those who follow them—are standing up and speaking Truth to Power. Truth is Truth. It’s one of those “Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth” kind of things that Tom Paine proffered to the People nearly two-point-five centuries ago. It’s the kind of thing that Democracy needs. Granted, there are those who label themselves “bloggers” while peddling the propogandistic bovine excrement of the Reich. These are not “bloggers.” They are broadcasters of buffoonery; acolytes, minions, and flying monkeys.

    As to the “Religious Left”—no one has excluded them from the discussion other than themselves. If they feel “marginalized,” then it is because they have chosen to marginalize themselves. They’ve become the audience of a “pro” wresting match (gah—did I just say that?), not unlike a fleet of buzzards, opossums, and other such forms of carrion-creatures; hovering on the fringes while two fighting dogs have at each other, and waiting for their “feast.” If the RL wants to be part of the event, then they’ll have to pick a side to support, and climb down into the trenches. Otherwise, they can stay on the sidelines, and continue to marginalize themselves….

  • I was very disappointed in Edwards’ response regarding the bloggers he’d hired. Not because he didn’t fire them — they had done nothing to deserve sudden unemployment. Edwards, or members of his staff, must have read the blogs of both bloggers before deciding to hire them, and they were hired for their ability to think on their feet (so to speak) and their ability to write eloquent and often cutting posts quickly and accurately with the facts at hand. His staffers, and Edwards himself, must have been aware of their earlier work, in all its sharp wit, intelligence, opinion and snark.
    Most bloggers aren’t trained in the niceties of political gamesmanship and protocol, most don’t carry degrees in civics or even read Miss Manners. They aren’t journalists. The very nature of blogging allows all of us who do so to put our thoughts and opinions out into the world quickly. When we get it wrong, our readers correct us at the speed of light, and honorable bloggers acknowledge the mistake right there in the pages of the blog.
    But at least as important is that because this is an interactive medium, we have an excellent opportunity to learn more nuance and alternate opinions from our readers. All of this has surely been the case with McEwan and Marcotte and their personal blogs.
    Now, they’re working for a candidate. They understand that their personal opinions about things outside of the campaign are no longer germaine to what they’ll be writing in support of Edwards and his bid for the presidency.
    What bothers me here is that Edwards kept them on, but gave them a public dressing down even as he supported their right to speak freely in the past. They were forced to make public apologies in order to hang on to their new jobs. That was wrong. Itt created a potential dampening effect that will hang over many talented and opinionated bloggers in the future, particularly those with political leanings and the ability to write with intelligence and wit.
    Edwards should have stood up for his two new hires and championed their right to speak their minds, explained their new roles in his campaign, and then blasted the ones who accused them for their own calculated hypocrisy.

  • Chait misses the point, there are many legitimate reasons for firing employees and I’m guessing most progressive bloggers expect Amanda in particular to cross one of those lines eventually. Bowing to fake outrage from bigots like Donohue and Malkin is not a legitimate reason, it’s a huge foreboding warning sign of the same unwillingness to fight for their values and allies that has characterized Democratic politicians for a generation. Thankfully, Edwards reversed his campaign’s poor decision.

  • For that matter, there’s also the frequently overlooked question of whether the incident adversely affects the still-largely-unorganized “religious left.”

    Since when is windbag bigot Ed Donohue a spokesman for or representative of “the religious left”? The guy’s downright embarrassing to say the least.

    And he’s a lawbreaker :

    Under federal tax law, section 501(c)(3) organizations may take positions on public policy issues, including issues that divide candidates in an election for public office. However, section 501(c)(3) organizations must avoid any issue advocacy that functions as political campaign intervention.

  • If you put the facts of this story, if you put what was said, in front of most Catholics without packaging it for them- without a headline that said “Edwards bloggers say bad things about Catholics”- no one would be really upset about what was said. No Catholic clergyperson would be spontaneously telling me that these bloggers are terrible. That a couple of overly uptight activists say it’s different doesn’t matter to me.

    If you put four Catholics that never met each other before in a room together there would be a pretty good chance that they’d each walk out having met three new Catholics who have criticized the Church strongly before.

    A lot of you people may not really have a good idea of what Catholics are like, if you don’t know Catholics that much besides what Catholic activists say about Catholic issues on TV. Catholic activists don’t necessarily represent a lot of Catholics.

    I didn’t read Lance’s ridiculous comment at #6 before but it doesn’t represent my views as far as how it talks nasty about people, and I’m very surprised a liberal would write something like that, which doesn’t sound like anything I’ve ever heard liberals say over the years.

  • Part of the difficulty in figuring out blogs and bloggers is that the medium continues to evolve in ways we don’t always perceive until they happen, driven by forces that are hard to identify and harder to predict. Equally problematic is that the terms “blog” and “blogger” are too generic; as yet, we have no terms to more accurately describe the specific types of blogs and bloggers currently online.

    At the risk of oversimplification (for the sake of this discussion), I’d consider two groups: (1) the “hot” blogger who may make inflammatory remarks to prove a point and speaks to a self-selecting audience of like-minded readers, and (2) the “cooler” more rational blogger, who attempts to promote reasoned discussion.

    It seems to me that “hot” bloggers are going to be problematic for campaigns because they’re more likely to generate controversy, drawing attention to themselves rather than promoting the candidate. A cooler blogger might fit in just fine.

    Given how the blog-o-sphere came to be, it’s likely that we have more “hot” bloggers than cool right now, but that could change as the medium changes and demand attracts cooler authors.

    Then again, I could be full of it.

  • Edwards demonstrated he was even more wooden-headed and squishy that Kerry was in 2004. The right came up with a little bitty shouting fest and he caved in to them and fired the two bloggers – until he got “taken to the woodshed” by the left blogosphere – at which point they were quietly “re-hired.”

    What is this guy going to do when they pull out the 16-inch naval cannon and start lobbing the real shit???

    Sorry, I want someone who will take the bastards on. Obama learned fast on the madrassa smear and did the right thing. Hillary knows from the get-go what to do with these scum.

    Couple this with Edwards saying he can’t support gay marriage because he was raised in the Southern Baptist Church, and he’s DOA so far as I am concerned.

    If the Democrats are dumb enough to nominate this Southern-fried moron, they deserve to get their ass kicked. Unfortunately, it’s our ass on the line here.

  • So Edwards hears accusations against some of his employees, he talks to his employees, he weighs the situation, he doesn’t fire the employees. This sounds sensible to me.

    Everyone here seems to be saying that he should have acted quickly – yet everyone complains bitterly that Bush acts quickly without gathering accurate information.

    And I’ve heard quite a few complaints about double standards – the Republicans are held to lower standards than the Democrats. Isn’t that the same situation here, just from our side? We’re expecting perfection from our candidates and their candidates just need to be relatively consistent and/or sane?

  • Tom Cleaver –

    Were you humiliated by a Southerner during your life? I don’t understand your bigotry.

  • I really don’t understand why Edwards employed these two bloggers in the first place, but if he decided he needed them to help get “his message across” then he should probably should have spent more time thinking about the message, not the messengers.

    I may have to thank the Republicans this time because they gave Edwards a nice little softball and he flunked, big time. Not what I wanted to see from a candidate for POTUS.

  • “the Christian left isn’t taken all that seriously” -Eduardo Penalver

    Boo fucking hoo. The Christian left should take itself more seriously, instead of trying to break into the Christian right’s monopoly on self-pity and contrived persecution.

    And nobody who’s willing to be identified with any kind of “Christian left” has any fucking business letting Bill Donohue speak for them, because he’s a reactionary fucking whacko. Thanks for joining his crusade, Penalver – that’ll win you a lot of friends on the side of the aisle where you *are*, even if it’s not the side of the aisle you *think* you’re on.

  • As the “mainstream media” becomes increasingly subservient to the needs of large corporations the internet grows in importance as a means to dispense information. It is no longer possible to watch news shows or read major dailies and expect to learn about the events of the day. The internet has become a critical means to communicate views that are largely ignored by other media. The successful candidates as we move forward are those that can successfully manage their message on the internet. It not only provides a forum for the candidate but also a means for voters to share their opinions and views with them. In light of all that having bloggers on the campaign staff becomes a necessity. Someone is needed to collect what is being said and to provide responses. I do not view their role as any different than the other staffers involved with PR.

    This blow up over Edwards’ bloggers is complete nonsense and highlights just how irrelevant the religious leaders are making themselves. The grassroots that are motivated by information gleaned from the internet played a major role in the last elections and their role will increase.

  • Bloggers function in a world where they can say absolutely anything without consequences. Edwards lives in a world where saying an Algerian nickname for monkey can destroy a career. Edwards deserves more empathy.

  • I’m confused. Did Edwards fire the two bloggers? Or did he keep them? I thought I read that he didn’t fire them, but it’s hard to tell. (And did he actually have the balls to be honest with a college audience?)

    Did he wait so long to respond to criticism that he agreed with it and caved in? And does this mean he’s unqualified to be on a presidential ticket — like he was in 2004?

    And if he didn’t have the backbone to turn a bush-league attack by a bigot who doesn’t like his politics into campaign suicide, how will ever get the votes of bigots who hate him simply because of where he was born?

    The Democrats should insist on ideological purity and a candidate from New England. Lose early, lose big!

  • …how come more of us haven’t been writing about Gen. Petraeus taking over command of our forces in Iraq? Did anyone catch the line of shit he was running from his isolated, borrowed palace? It basically came down to a Sinatra-esque, “Quit the fooling around, kunckleheads, and help these people stand up on their own. Ring a ding sing.”

    In other words, Share the brown man’s burden.

  • Left out of every discussion I’ve seen is the problem of hiring a blogger who is going to alienate a good portion of the voting left because she is a loud-mouthed dope.

    I consigned Pandagon (once one of my favorite blogs) to the trash bin because of Marcotte. When I read she had been hired by Edwards to be a public figure on his campaign, I consigned him to the same trash bin. Does *anyone* here understand how little credibility Marcotte has with reasonable people on the left? Does anyone besides me look at that hire and see a really callous calculation on Edwards’ part (Lessee, hire this loud-mouthed jerk, get brownie points with the name-calling left, set myself up real good for the Yearly Kos convention, yeah, yeah, that’s the ticket) .

    He was (and is) using you chumps, tossing you a purely ceremonial bone by hiring a second-tier blogger who is known precisely because she is a foul-mouthed scold who says outrageous and inflammatory stuff. Then, she got inconvenient, so he did the intelligent thing and dumped her, only then realizing what a millstone the netroots left is to a candidate.

    Edwards is toast because of his connection to the worst, most hysterical part of the netroots, just like Lamont. Get out of your self-referential cocoon and think about how hiring Marcotte in the first place impacts support on the left.

  • Yeah, Edwards is toast. He lost that debate to Cheney, even though polls said otherwise. It’s not like he had a strategy that worked that day, what is he, a lawyer or something? He truly is phony, even though he’s got low negatives and people like him. People don’t like people that they say they like. I know.

    Really, everybody who takes Edwards seriously is so, so stupid. Thankfully I’m so smart and hate him.

  • I still feel like the bloggers have let Edwards off too easy.

    On a thread by Kos today, the subject is how much better it was that Edwards said “I was wrong” while Hillary said “I was misled.”

    We all know now that Edwards actually fired those bloggers. Then rehired them after pressure from the blogs.

    We’ve all read the statements made by Edwards and the bloggers.

    So why wasn’t there an apology to them from Edwards? Where was the “I was wrong” or at least “I was misled” there?

  • Okay fercryinoutloud–

    Can you give us some block quotes from Marcotte? One of the weird things about this whole controversy has been never actually reading any of the apparently offensive posts.

  • I also pretty much stopped reading Pandagon after Amanda took over as she took the blog in a different direction than it was under Ezra and ____ (Gee, what is his name? he was my primary reason for reading that blog)

    Amanda seemed to be writing more for a younger crowd and was much more interested in feminist-type issues which I agree with in general, but have no real vested interest in- so I moved on. But she has a general snarkiness and a “Get your F***ing hands off my body” attitude toward anti-abortion religious groups – and she has no compunctions toward putting her feelings and contempt into that sort of language.

    ANd that’s part of the problem as I see it, is that politics and religion are generally discussed in different ways. Politics more a free-for-all from all sides, religion, at least the conservative side expecting a certain amount of deference and respect to the institutionms, authority figures and faith of its believers. So when religion interferes in politics, and people who are politically inclined respond in a political manner that is different from the type of awe and respect what the religious-types expect they take offense and start screaming about hositility toward religion because they are not being treated with the deference and respect which they think being from a religious POV automatically entitles them. Donohoe gives none of the respect to those he opposes, but is quick to take offense when it is not given to him or the church.

    Let’s face it – at a certain bottom-line level, churches like the Catholic church and the tradition that Donohue represents are extrememly anti-democratic and when they involve themselves in political issues, they are bound to butt heads with Progressives. The religious groups want to have it both ways – they feel entitled to be intemporate and intolerant because their views are based on their “beliefs”, but a response in kind is viewed as disrespectful, at least, and anti-religious bigotry at best. They want a special status when they inject themselves into the political discussion and turn nasty when they don’t get it.

    Edwards hired the bloggers as outreach to “liberal voters and online activists” – people who aren’t going to agree with what people like Donohue wants in the first place. He didn’t hire them as his outreach to the Catholic church – but Donohue wants some sort of veto power over who the Edwards campaign reaches out to and how. So how does any Democratic candidate engage in said outreach without pissing off the likes of Donohue? Churches and religious groups should have NO place in political campaigns – never mind a special place.

  • So as each Democratic candidate doesn’t act as quickly as the bloggers think he should, they will get rejected and that will leave us with what? Someone who doesn’t say anything? Who doesn’t do anything? Someone with a nice smile???

    The blogosphere is becoming as obsessed with hang nails as the MSM.

    Keep everything in perspective.

    (Thanks, Dale #23.)

  • To answer O’Dwyer, Edwards got the bloggers to apologize for religious statements made in the past. Campaign aides do what their candidate dictate. So now , being hired, their blogs can no longer be considered their opinion or even unbiased. Everything they write will be to promote their candidate’s agenda. Their opinion on any other matter from now on must be approved. It’s a double edged sword. It makes info on Edward’s policies easily available to bloggers but also bloggers know these postings are being paid for by Edwards. I read bloggs because it’s the only real alternative to get the truth about current events. I stand clear of those who only want to throw rocks, insult, or ridicule others. Usually the liars ridicule and insult themselves and merely need to be exposed. Truth has its own ring to it and here is where I hear it. Here, hear.

  • Tom Cleaver –

    Were you humiliated by a Southerner during your life? I don’t understand your bigotry.

    No. As a matter of fact – to sound like a “white liberal” I have several Southern friends. I am just tired of us having to put up with this half-assed candidates like Edwards and Clinton because they’re Southern, as we try and try again to regain the Southern white vote we used to have when we didn’t mind they were running an apartheid state.

    They’re right wingers, they’re Republicans, the rest of the country only likes their food, and as Tom Schaller has pointed out in Whistling Past Dixie, we don’t need that albatross around our neck further.

    For those who are operating under the misapprehension pepermint is that Edwards “hears accusations against some of his employees, he talks to his employees, he weighs the situation, he doesn’t fire the employees. This sounds sensible to me.”

    HE FIRED THEM ON THURSDAY!!! Repeat after me: He. Knuckled. Under. He. Fired. Them.

    He only re-hired them when he caught heat for being a wuss.

    Go look at both the blogs in reference. They now admit they were fired and then re-hired.

    That makes a helluva lot of difference from “Edwards hears accusations against some of his employees, he talks to his employees, he weighs the situation, he doesn’t fire the employees.”

    Doesn’t it? Or are we all living in UpsideDownWorld????


  • That’s not really the point (that you can’t fire bloggers for any usual, legitimate reason, because they have friends with blogs), I think, because he’s not acknowledging the reason they were going to be fired.

    When I wrote this in my first comment I meant that Mr. Chait was missing the point of the bloggers’ criticism (it wasn’t just that they were their friends and they liked them- it wasn’t meritless criticism of their dismissal by Edwards- but rather that the dismissal was politically bad and unnecessary).

  • Well after writing a brillinat reposte…I lost it…And since I can’t spell, I’ll spare you the whole thing…just let me say I agree with Tom Cleaver…the hypocracy of southeners is unbelivable!
    One year after my husband of 49 years died two of my southern neighbors came, with their minister, to invite me to their church…they weren’t there when he as sick…they weren’t there at his memorial in our yard…I never let them in my house…no one in the neighborhood talks to me…but I have friends who live in other places. My experience with southeners….

  • Well, Tom, I’ve followed the story about Edwards and the bloggers about as much as I thought it deserved – very little. Staff gets fired all the time. Sometimes they get rehired when the boss rethinks the situation. BFD

    What I’ve learned reading this blog regularly for the last 3 – 4 months is that there really isn’t all that much difference between the left and the right. Both sides escalate to hate mongering very easily. Both sides look for a reason to hate. Both sides have a bizarre and arbitrary measuring stick for perfection in candidates. Both sides feel superior. I’d like to be on the side of the good guys, but some days it’s hard to tell which one it is.

    Words have power. When you lambast and ridicule an entire region, you make enemies. Is that the point?

  • Yes, Joan, all of us Southerners are vile and awful people. Just change the region to a religion or ethnicity and what do you have?

  • ML…No they’re not all vile or awful…actually it’s the religious hypocritical ones I am not fond of…I live here…I have to deal with them…and I do. I am polite but I will not be close friends with them nor will I attend their churches.
    But I do understand Tom Cleavers remarks…no more over religious scatimonius presidents! Oops I spelt that wrong! Sanctimonius…is that right? I should have my dictionary handy but I really hate to waste time looking things up.

  • Comments 23 and 28 both ignore how this kind of behavior by Edwards is the same kind of behavior that 1) has gotten us into the political disadvantages we have and 2) keeps us there.

    28 says he polls well but that doesn’t have to do with how this kind of behaviors would effect the Democratic party as a whole if we all did it more. It also doesn’t reflect how Edwards will look if he keeps responding to Republican criticism that way.

    Comment 23 also ignores that now these bloggers have suffered consequences.

  • (Thank you, Dale and ml)

    Last December, I was driving in heavy Christmas traffic. Suddenly, the transmission died right in the middle of a street. As I was pushing my car to the side of the road to get it out of the way of traffic, a car full of young black women drove around me, almost hitting me and yelling, “Get off the road, you dumb m**********r!” And a Merry Christmas to you, I thought.

    A few minutes later, I went into a store and asked a clerk, who was also black and a woman, if there was a pay phone nearby. I wanted to call my wife. She was immediately sympathetic and helpful, giving me to a store phone to use. She was a nice lady.

    Perhaps the car full of women had been persecuted and downtrodden all their lives, victims of southern racial hatred. Maybe their rudeness was a long-stifled scream resulting from of centuries of slavery. More likely, they were just assholes.

    The nice woman in the store was certainly older, which means she’s experienced racism much longer. But she was instinctively good.

    That the south has become a Republican stronghold and has always been dominated by religious fundamentalists is not a big secret to me, nor is it a matter of pride. Southern Democrats like me continue to vote Democratic and make our views public. Just because the region is judged by loud-mouthed yahoos doesn’t mean we have to move to Vermont or California to become acceptable citizens. We don’t have to vote for Ralph Nader to prove our progressive credentials.

    We certainly don’t deny slavery and Jim Crow, but we do notice that the rest of the country isn’t free of prejudice and discrimination. I recommend Randy Newman’s song “Rednecks” for a taste of holier-than-thou syndrome.

    I don’t know that I’ll vote for John Edwards. I like other candidates too. But I’m not going to go apeshit over an underwhelming non-story of Edwards and blogs. If you live long enough, you learn to pick your fights. That’s how you win.

  • Does it strike anyone else as ironic that a single right-wing religious nutcase (Donohue) who tried to denigrate Edwards has managed to sucker Democrats into finishing the job for him?

  • Dunno if anyone is still reading this thread…

    but I had to respond to this comment by Steve (way back at #11):
    “As to the “Religious Left”—no one has excluded them from the discussion other than themselves. If they feel “marginalized,” then it is because they have chosen to marginalize themselves. They’ve become the audience of a “pro” wresting match (gah—did I just say that?), not unlike a fleet of buzzards, opossums, and other such forms of carrion-creatures; hovering on the fringes while two fighting dogs have at each other, and waiting for their “feast.” If the RL wants to be part of the event, then they’ll have to pick a side to support, and climb down into the trenches. Otherwise, they can stay on the sidelines, and continue to marginalize themselves…. ”

    Hey, look, Steve… the marginalization and exclusion of the “liberal left” has come at the hands of the MSM. Yeah, the “liberal” press. We all know what that means. 😛

    You obviously have not heard about the good stuff we on the “religious left” are doing. Hey, I wonder why (see paragraph above). No, we aren’t sitting around feeling sorry for ourselves; we’re out there fighting for the “least of these”, the poor, the marginalized people in our society. Either by helping directly or by influencing public policy.

    Don’t cry any rivers for us, OK? Because we’re busy. There’s a LOT to do. The current crop of Rethugs has seen to that.

  • There was something missing with the whole Edwards mess that bugs me, aside from the fact that I never really heard specifically what the other side was complaining about with Amanda.

    Edwards should have come out and said if there are any legitimate representatives of Catholicism who may wish to complain about his staff he would give them his ear. But for Michelle “We should still have Japs in Concentration Camps” Malkin and Bill “All of Hollywood are corrupt Catholic-hating Jews” Donohue to bitch and be considered legitimate sources of public discourse is astounding. Edwards could have listed the hate filled CVs of his accusers and said they have no legitimacy in this debate. For now, this still rests as an unfulfilled “he said, she said” argument where the broader public may misunerstand what the whole mass was about depending upon where they get their information. If this had been a trial in court, Donohi and Malkin would have been thrown off the witness stand as discredited witnesses.

  • 1. What I haven’t seen on Carpetbagger Report is any detailed discussion of what they said. You go on about who is complaining, but just because hypocrites are offended doesn’t mean nothing offensive was said. Just because there are worse offenders going unpunished doesn’t mean these two did nothing wrong. The Democratic Party is already tarred as anti-religious; giving traction to that view is a political problem.
    2. This is all a nothing story; no one cares if he fires a few bloggers except other bloggers.
    3. Why should hiring bloggers help you win support from bloggers? Are they for sale?
    4. If bloggers get all worked up when a politician fires a blogger for political reasons, then maybe none should be hired in the first place.

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