A ‘bitter’ pill for Obama to swallow?

Gallup released a poll this week that offered Barack Obama some good news, and some bad, all relating to an “education gap.” As Jonathan Chait noted, “Obama’s lead over Clinton among white college-educated Democrats (and Democratic leaners) has risen from 7 points to 12 points. Among those with post-graduate degrees, it’s exploded, from an 8 point lead to a 29 point lead. But among white voters with a high school degree or less, his deficit has barely budged, from 33 points to 30 points. As it stands, the educational chasm is stark.”

If Obama is struggling with the “working-class blues,” something tells me this won’t help.

As Senator Barack Obama sought to broaden his appeal to voters in southern Indiana on Friday, Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and John McCain separately criticized him as being out of touch with the middle class, seizing on a remark Mr. Obama made at a California fund-raiser about “bitter” Americans.

At the fund-raiser in San Francisco last Sunday, Mr. Obama outlined challenges facing his presidential candidacy in the coming primaries in Pennsylvania and Indiana, particularly persuading white working-class voters who, he said, fell through the cracks during the Bush and Clinton administrations.

“So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations,” Mr. Obama said, according to a transcript on the Huffington Post Web site, which on Friday published the comments.

The response could fairly be described as ferocious. Almost immediately, John McCain’s campaign told reporters, “It shows an elitism and condescension towards hardworking Americans that is nothing short of breathtaking. It is hard to imagine someone running for president who is more out of touch with average Americans.” Hillary Clinton, nearly as quickly, delivered a speech in which she said people who’ve “faced hard times” are not bitter at all, adding, “Pennsylvanians don’t need a president who looks down on them, they need a president who stands up for them.”

I think Obama’s remarks from last weekend were a little clumsy, but hardly scandalous.

The Huffington Post ran a lengthy item on this, including the audio and full transcript, but here’s the contentious quote in a slightly larger context:

“[T]he truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

For those of us who’ve read “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” the quote probably doesn’t sound especially noteworthy. Awkwardly phrased, but largely a common explanation for the ways in which voters place social concerns and the culture war above their economic interests.

Reading over Obama’s quote a few times, I get the sense he ran into trouble by putting two thoughts together without any real transition. The God and Guns idea isn’t exactly the same as the America First idea, though they’re part of the same broader dynamic.

Nevertheless, there are two main angles to consider going forward. The first is that, after a slow week in which nothing especially shocking happened in the presidential campaign, this is the new “new thing.” The media will now obsess over accusations of “elitism,” in part because Clinton and the GOP have settled on the same talking points, and in part because the media has nothing else to do right now. The story broke late on a Friday night, but the discussion will dominate the Sunday morning shows, and Fox News will incorporate the comments into every segment between now and 2011.

The second is that Obama did a pretty good job in Indiana last night of pushing back on the story.

To my ear, this provides important context and meaning to what Obama said on Sunday, though the comments are not identical. Last night, was effectively his way of saying, “What I meant was…” That may work, it may not. Time will tell.

If recent history is any guide, the “bitter” quote won’t change anything. People sympathetic to Obama won’t find this especially noteworthy, and are inclined to agree with his sentiment. Obama’s detractors will characterize his remarks as evidence of liberal elitism. We can discuss, at painful length, whether people are actually bitter or optimistic. Or both. Or something else altogether.

I agree. It was clumsily said, but the truth nonetheless. It amazes me that the two candidates with more wealth and privileged upbringings have the nerve to call Obama an “elitist”. Yes, he uses big words, but so what? He is intelligent. Did he make millions and millions of dollars last year? No. He worked with inner city youth and knows first hand the struggles of working class people. It’s a good sound bite for Clinton and McCain who have nothing else to talk about now but it doesn’t begin to overshadow Bill out on the campaign trail dredging up Bosnia again. A little off topic – did anyone see “Meeting David Wilson” on MSNBC last night?

  • My grandfather worked in a steel mill that was closed down. The town that had sprung up around it got no help and was allowed to die a slow painful death. He was bitter.

    Clinton & McCain have decided to paint a caricature of the the Noble Out of Work Worker when those workers are in fact angry and bitter at the government.

    They’re a subsection of the Guns, God & Gays crowd, they’re the wedge issue voters, they’re the voters that the GOP has tried to manipulate for decades, and we talk about them all of the time.

    It’s comedy that a) Obama isn’t allowed to talk about them but Bill Clinton can court the “Bubba” vote (a subsection of the GGG crowd) and Dean can court the truck driving, rebel flag crowd (aka Bubba – who isn’t only in the South), and b) that Clinton and McCain proved how out of touch they actually are with their responses.

    It almost seems like a trap was set for them and they walked right into it.

  • Shades of junior high school, where the smart kids were ostracized and either dumbed themselves down to fit in or settled in on the periphery of the culture. Come to think of it, American society has a lot in common with junior high school.(OMG, did you hear what Becky said about Janice? It’s all over school!)

    God, save us from educated people! What America needs is another George W.

  • “Pennsylvanians don’t need a president who looks down on them,.

    Then she resumed telling fairy tales and giving her Economics-for-Dummies speech (which I think is the same as looking down on people).

    This is from 3/27, but I’m quite certain it doesn’t vary much from other speeches:

    ”Now, there are those who will say, “Well, you know, why does she keep talking about policy? Why does she talk about all of these specific changes she would like to make?” Well, the answer is simple: I want you to know what I would do if I were so fortunate as to be your president, and I want the American people to hold me accountable.”

    Ten minutes later she got to the “specifics:

    “I’ll close the tax loopholes for companies that outsource jobs”, “create and keep good jobs right here in North Carolina and across America”, “provide small businesses with tax incentives so they can insure their employees. They won’t be required to…”, and “Well, how about creating tens of thousands of green collar jobs right here in North Carolina?”

    These are not specifics!! And not to get too far off subject, but does anyone seriously think that either Obama or Clinton would veto a bill with the other’s economic or healthcare proposals if they got 60 votes in the Senate and 218 in Congress? Does anyone think any of these policies could reach the president’s desk without those 60 plus 218 votes?

  • Obama looked at—not “down,” but straight at—the People, and saw that the People were, indeed, bitter; a deeply-held bitterness wrought by the previous 25 years of rapacious decline forced upon the People of Pennsylvania by the status-quo elitism that is represented in today’s politics by the John and Hillary Show, with their self-righteous ramblings that amount to nothing more than a burlap sack full of “let them eat cake” speeches.

    The only elitism I’m seeing is the self-glorification of McSame and his evil underling, McSameSame. Both campaigns know full well that an Obama presidency is a stake in the heart of the blood-sucking vampirism that “politics as usual” has become in the United States. They know—and they fear the inevitable access to that knowledge by the People.

  • There is two big problems with Obama’s comments that are elitist though it doesn’t suprise me that so many people here miss the insult.
    First as Steve noted but didn’t really put into context it is insulting to say that people ‘cling’ to religion and gun rights because they are bitter losers in the economic world. To make such statements shows a basic dismissive disrespect for the religious and gun enthusiasts. Whether Obama and his wealthy San Francisco supporters want to believe it – there are a lot of strong smart successful and happy people that believe in god and/or gun rights. Neither religion or guns are just pablum for the bitter out of work.
    Second the thrust of Obama’s sentiments is that these bitter stereotypes are so frustrated over economic downturns that they WRONGLY and stupidly fall for anti-trade and anti-immigration bullshit unlike the liberal elite who know so much better. But the fact is that these people believe what they do because they have SMARTLY recognized that bad trade deals and lax immigration policies are a large cause of their economic problems. They reject Obama not because they are stupid but because they realize ala austin goolsbee that rather thab being straight with them he is a bs political panderer who can’t get past the what’s the matter with Kansas false stereotypes.

  • I think Obama made the mistake of assuming that he could make a comment like that and people would look at his larger point rather than simplistically see it as a dig at the choices of the people he’s talking about. Of course people are bitter and angry. Of course they have a right to be. But anything that can be interpreted, however wildly and wrongly, as anything other than high praise of the sacred cows of religion and arms is going to get people in a lather.

    He blew it on this one. Let’s hope the follow-up will help. And Steve is right that it probably won’t change a single mind either way.

  • I guess the most telling moment is the fact that McCain and Clinton both attacked Obama for the same thing. That speaks volumes about how Clinton is far removed from the progressive agenda.

  • Yeah, everyone’s upset with Obama for telling the truth. He doesn’t see “A City On A Hill” or “A Bridge To The Future.” He sees a country that has been abused and screwed for the past 40 years by the folks responsible for bringing you Reagan, the Bushes and the Clintons. And there is absolutely no “put down” of those folks he is talking about – if you’re in their situation, with their opportunities and their problems, it’s almost entirely reasonable for them to have the beliefs they do, particulafly given that the American system of public miseducation does not equip the average American to have any understanding of the larger forces that influence and control their lives. I think Obama knows that he is talking about the victims of America, and that they at least understand that the Bushes and the Clintons and their backers are the victimizers.

    Listening to the lies and bullshit Hillary was schmearing onto the comment made me want to puke – she proves the truth of what Obama said.

  • Wow, JoePutz, I’m stunned to see that you’re insulted by what Obama said, given what an incredibly open mind you have.

    Did you watch the video clip of Obama in Indiana posted above? He doesn’t double-talk, he doesn’t backtrack, he repeats exactly what he said in SF, and the crowd — apparently filled with white, working-class folks — goes absolutely wild. McCain can talk about “straight talk” but this is the real deal.

    This is going to play out the same way the supposedly deadly Wright scandal did — he’s going to turn this around like a judo master and use it against his opponents.

  • “The second is that Obama did a pretty good job in Indiana last night of pushing back on the story.”

    “Pretty good? Yes, I would say a standing ovation from a huge crowd for his response is “pretty good”

  • I think the critical part of Obama’s explanation is that he lays blame for the exisiting bitterness– which certainly does exist– at the feet of BOTH parties.

    “And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we’re going to make your community better. We’re going to make it right and nothing ever happens. And of course they’re bitter. Of course they’re frustrated. You would be too. In fact many of you are. Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur. The same thing has happened all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you. Nobody is thinking about you. And so people end up- they don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody’s going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington.”

    How the hell is any of this condescending? Oh, wait, because no one wants to acknowledge that there is justified bitterness. Didn’t we just have national polls that support a lot of this!?!?!? That over 70% of Americans think our country is on the wrong track and that their future is looking pretty dim?

  • joepa37 @ #6 says “But the fact is that these people believe what they do because they have SMARTLY recognized that bad trade deals and lax immigration policies are a large cause of their economic problems.”

    If they are so smart at recognizing what ails them, why do they continually vote against their own economic interests? As CB pointed out, “For those of us who’ve read “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” the quote probably doesn’t sound especially noteworthy. Awkwardly phrased, but largely a common explanation for the ways in which voters place social concerns and the culture war above their economic interests.”

    If you haven’t read it, make the time to do so; I found it to be the Rosetta Stone of modern American politics.

  • Paul Simon said it so well in American Tune

    “Many’s the time I’ve been mistaken, and many times confused
    Yes and I’ve often felt forsaken, and certainly misused
    Ah but I’m alright, I’m alright, I’m just weary thru my bones
    Still you don’t expect to be bright and bon-vivant
    So far away from home, so far away from home

    And I don’t know a soul who’s not been battered
    I don’t have a friend who feels at ease
    I don’t know a dream that’s not been shattered or driven to its knees
    But it’s alright, it’s alright, for we live so well, so long
    Still, when I think of the road we’re traveling on
    I wonder what’s gone wrong, I can’t help it I wonder what’s gone wrong”

  • I think it speaks to the political instincts of experienced campaigners, not their shared ideologies.

    Obama marginalized working class people first in his speech on race, where he attributed bigotry to those who are economically in competition with African Americans and struggling to make ends meet. Obama seems to hold some negative stereotypes about working class people and they are seeping into his discourse. In Chicago, these kinds of remarks would rally his constituency, but now that he must appeal to a broader base, he doesn’t know how to bring the scapegoats back into the picture. His empathy for the working class doesn’t ring true, in my opinion, because he has none.

  • I think the critical part of Obama’s explanation is that he lays blame for the exisiting bitterness– which certainly does exist– at the feet of BOTH parties.

    Excellent point.

    Obama’s appeal stems in part, ironically enough, from using his own form of triangularization against the Bush and Clinton crowds.

  • except he did walk back in Indiana. He ‘ explained’ what he meant while coveniently leaving out the cling to insulting comments. But no one who truly had respect for religion ar god rights could make that statement in the first place – so no I don’t find the walk back in Indiana addressed the issue..
    But the elitists here are refuse to see it because they have the same condescending disrespect for the child like idiots who are the only people they believe are stupid enough to be fooled by religion or the NRA. Its wonderful that you are all so glad to excuse the bitterness of those poor pennsylvanians without realizing that you are just perpetuating your own false stereotypes. The italian Scranton family that I come from has loved god and hunting for years and years and good times and bad

  • What is more elitist– to pretend that poor, struggling people aren’t bitter or feel screwed over OR to acknowledge that they feel screwed over and painfully uncertain about their futures?

    Obama just spent 10 days traveling across PA in small, forgotten towns. He didn’t say what he said in an “elitist” vacuum. There ARE people who live in small towns whose lives have been destroyed by the loss of jobs– the closing of mines and manufacturing plants– and they are bitter about it. Obama is actually talking TO them as much as he is talking ABOUT them. Only isolated elitists would believe that it is condescending to talk about the people in this country who have been screwed over.

    Some people say Obama is all talk– but part of that is that he is willing to talk about things that no one else is brave enough to address. Hillary and McCain are politicians and both will say and do whatever they need to get elected. Obama is clearly cut from a completely different cloth. There is no guarentee that this will work for him at the end of the day, it could backfire. But kudos to him for at least for speaking the truth.

  • Here is the commercial the Obama campaign needs to produce A.S.A.P. and run everywhere:

    (Obama voiceover) “I’m Barack Obama and I approved this message. On April tenth I talked to people in Indiana about how working people in small towns were left behind by the Clinton administration and then completely abandoned by the Bush administration. Unfortunately the media, which has been silent about the decline of the American middle class, would rather create a story than report honestly on the issues. Here is the entire context of what I said.”

    (Screen showing text of speech)
    (recording)““[T]he truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

    (Cut to a guy wearing an orange camouflage jacket, holding a gun with a dog sitting at his side.)
    (Hunter) “Ever since the factory closed and moved overseas, it seems that hunting is the only pleasure me ‘n Buck get out of life. Now with things so tight, my missus actually encourages me to go out so I can put a little extra food on the table.”

    (Cut to a middle-aged woman sitting at a kitchen table.)
    (Woman) “When I got sick and lost my job I felt all alone. The federal government doesn’t care. The county government says they don’t have any money. A lot of my neighbors are worse off than I am. If it wasn’t for the help from my church I don’t know where I’d be.”

    (Cut to a minister standing in a small, modest chuch)
    (Minister) “Many in my flock want to blame outsiders for taking their jobs. But the truth is, the good jobs were gone before the new immigrants came. It’s just easier to get angry at other people than faceless corporations, especially when there a re plenty of politicians who want to exploit that anger.”

    (Cut to head and shoulder shot of Obama)
    (Obama) Americans deserve better than they’ve received from the Republicans and the Clintons. I’m running for president to make a break from the past. It’s time for all of us to come together to work toward a new, prosperous future.”

  • and Peteco thanks for being honest by admitting at least that you do think they are stupid since they don’t vote the way you do.
    Of course you are so smart that you believe trade and immigration are social and cultural issue while us rubes think they are economic.

  • Joe,

    I see where you truly don’t get what he’s talking about. You are distracted by the “god and guns” reference and aren’t really interested in finding out what he meant by that. It’s not about religion or 2nd amendment rights, it’s about the blatant way that the GOP tries to appeal to poor, struggling people with superficial promises of banning gay marriage or even outlawing abortion– something they only really talk about in election years, in case you haven’t noticed.

    I’ll admit that Obama’s original comment out of context is rather clumsy. But his explanation in Indiana rings true for a lot of people.

  • Over 80% of the polled think the US is on the wrong track. There is a lot of bitterness among all socioeconomic sectors. We are still waiting for an integrated, unifying vision that addresses most of our main concerns including energy, food, transportation, the environment, global warming, jobs, economic security, globalization, international relations, etc. Instead of leading with vision and providing hope, we see this as evidence that the weeds of the past have deep roots that can impede the seedlings of hope. Obama really needs to work on the vision thing, to try to overcome, vs. explain the origins of bitterness.

  • Mary said:
    Obama marginalized working class people first in his speech on race, where he attributed bigotry to those who are economically in competition with African Americans and struggling to make ends meet. Obama seems to hold some negative stereotypes about working class people and they are seeping into his discourse.

    Mary, do they even have working class people on your home planet?

    Walk into a working-class tavern. The first thing you’ll notice is that everyone there is white — or black, or hispanic depending on the neighborhood. Tell a joke about blacks or Mexicans. Does anyone object, or does everyone laugh. Start a conversation about day laborers and listen to the (usually) thinly veiled racist comments.

    I’m not talking about the deep south here. I’m talking about my own experience in Wisconsin, a blue-to-purple state, and Minnesota, a reliably blue state.

  • Bush/Clinton/Clinton/Bush/Bush….

    Hell yes I am bitter!

    20 years of no go bullshit…
    I’ve had enough.

  • Zoe
    Your post just makes my point obviously if I see things differently than you its just because I am too stupid to undertand what OBama really meant. Of course you avoid the fact that I like you can read these words and fully understand what he meant when he was talking to a bunch of San Francisco wealthy liberals. and smart enough to realize he only made the Indiana speech attempting to recast the condescending comments because he got in trouble when the rubes in pa. heard the original statement.
    Its funny that you guys can only look at others critically as long as something matches up with your own condescending false stereotypes you find no need to self evaluate.

  • What would be the response if Hillary Clinton gave a speech attributing bitterness to the African Americans supporting Obama? What if she said they were just attending Wright’s church out of frustration? What if she said their strong belief in civil rights was related to their socio-economic status? That’s what Obama did here, except the group he was talking about was not one he can plausibly assert membership in, just as Hillary is not African American and would be viewed as an outsider maligning a group she can have no first-hand experience of. There are real reasons why working class people support Clinton instead of Obama, and they are not just racist, as has been implied in blog analyses. They are also not just a bunch of ignorant, less educated know-nothings (as implied with quotes of What’s Wrong with Kansas above). Calling people names is not the way to get their vote — and that is exactly what Obama did. It may even be that he doesn’t care about attracting working class votes and his statements about him were intended to attract entirely different demographics, especially since he made the statements to a California audience (perhaps forgetting that words no longer stay in the contexts in which they are uttered).

    I notice a bunch of people above asking for the kind of charity they have never accorded Clinton, offering Obama warm support because he is the target of the kinds of attacks Clinton routinely receives over much more minor remarks. It would be nice if the Obama supporters gained some empathy for the unfairness of this sort of thing, but I won’t hold my breath. He put his foot in his mouth and now it is his job to take it out, as gracefully as possible. If he cannot do that, he won’t be much of a diplomat or world leader.

    There is an irony to so-called progressives here writing off the working class. Not too many John Edwards supporters here, I guess. Maybe that 18 yo demographic is asserting itself. Since most kids have never worked for a living, not surprising they wouldn’t understand why Obama’s remarks were insulting and need to be “walked back”.

  • I think it’s sort of amusing that anyone finds it offensive to address the bitterness that DOES exist in this country. Anyone who pretends that it isn’t there IS an elitist.

    But what kind of politics appeals to bitter people? Someone talking about hope and change, how we’re going to make this country better, live up to its promises, and have a government that actually serves its people.

    McCain is McBush is McSame. He can’t run as a change candidate and is EMBRACING Bush on nearly every policy. McCain is so out of touch that he doesn’t seem to notice that Bush has had approval ratings below 30% for a few YEARS now. Anyone who thinks that McCain is going to win is ridiculously out of touch.

  • This is a description of Johnstown, Pennsylvania from the March 20th NYTimes.

    JOHNSTOWN, Pa. — In a city like this, which was suctioned clean of its old life more than a quarter-century ago and has been waiting ever since for a new one, people do not so much ignore national politics as gaze upon it with the long-distance stare of the combat-weary.

    Ask a middle-aged man what he does for a living, and most often the answer is not one thing but a chain of jobs, usually starting with something in the high-paying lost world of steel or coal and then descending a paycheck ladder: to bus driver, mechanic, maintenance man, cook, often more than one job at a time.

    People say yes, the war is worrisome, the economy is worrisome. But here some 80 miles east of Pittsburgh, where worry seems to come with the drinking water, they answer questions about those and other pressing issues of the 2008 presidential campaign with a “what’s your point?” twist of the mouth. “We all hope for the best,” Fern Yarnick, 78, a retired secretary and sometime columnist for The Tribune-Democrat, the local daily, said Wednesday. “Nobody wants to tell you too much about how bad it is. People are tired of discussing.”[..]
    It was an uncertainty about the power of a president — any president — to fix anything that appears to many fundamentally broken, whether it is the hope of reaching or remaining in the middle class, or American foreign policy in the Middle East, or the expectation of corporate loyalty to longtime employees.
    […]

    Peter Contacos, 42, the fourth generation of his family to own and operate Coney Island Lunch, a downtown Johnstown business that survived two floods and the loss of thousands of regular customers when Bethlehem Steel eliminated 15,000 jobs in the 1970s and ’80s, will not vote for Senator Barack Obama, “because his name is Barack Hussein Obama — case closed.” Mr. Contacos, an avid hunter who proudly displays pictures of himself with a magnificently maned lion he killed in Botswana, said he considered Mr. Obama “a terrorist.”

  • Joe– I don’t think you’re stupid. I think you’re narrow-minded and intentionally ignore anything that might actually contradict what you already believe. Not the same thing as being stupid and unfortunately it’s not a problem that is limited to Republicans.

  • SteveT, if you think working class people are the only ones who tell racist jokes, you’ve lived a sheltered life. If you, like Obama, think that someone with a trade is less intelligent than someone with a profession, you need to spend time outside taverns (all people lose IQ points when they drink). Obama needs to do what Clinton did — go around and ask people about themselves, their lives, and why they hold the views they do. When you do that, you find out that their views make sense in the context of their lives. Instead, Obama attributes views he does not understand to frustration and bitterness. That’s a lot like attributing support for Clinton to racism. Way too easy.

    I don’t believe Obama is ready or willing to be president of ALL of the people of this country. The routine of bowling, eating unfamiliar food, and shaking hands in diners is to demonstrate an interest and connection with all kinds of people. The charge of elitism comes when you cannot do that plausibly. It is hard to demonstrate real caring and concern for those most different from yourself. Bill Clinton was great at it, and so is Hillary, because they have both spent their lives working among and for all kinds of people. Obama hasn’t done that and it shows. That’s what this is about.

  • Don’t feed the trolls…..

    First, a little biographical information. I left school at age 16 and did a four-year union sheet metal apprenticeship. 27 years later, I still work in the construction industry, with the guys who get their hands dirty, every day. My father was a rig welder. My eldest brother worked on a railroad gang. Blue collar enough for you?

    “and Peteco thanks for being honest by admitting at least that you do think they are stupid since they don’t vote the way you do.”

    Anyone who makes less than $200,000 a year and votes for the Republicans is voting against their own economic self interest. The last eight years have been an exercise in wealth transference, from the middle class to the most wealthy. Obama, in a killer line in the above-posted link to his speech, points out the Clinton voted for the credit card company wealthfare act (Bankruptcy Bill). He should have gone further and noted that most people who declare bankruptcy do so because of healthcare costs they have incurred because of inadequate or no insurance. Just one example of how the Republican party and their Democratic enablers in congress dump on the ordinary people in the US, in service of their corporate paymasters.

    People who don’t pay attention think everything is fine until it affects them personally. In my experience, it’s because they don’t take the time to educate themselves about what’s really going on, and make their voting decisions based on some bonehead on the car radio who bangs on endlessly about how some elitist east-coast liberal is going to take away their guns and turn them into gay atheists. They depict life’s unfortunates as losers who have only themselves to blame, feeding the vast empathy deficit that exists in this country. Politics is for nerds, and requires actual thought to understand. In this sense, many people are willfully ignorant, if not outright stupid. I expect to get flamed for that, but it doesn’t alter the truth.

    “Of course you are so smart that you believe trade and immigration are social and cultural issue while us rubes think they are economic.”

    Where did I say that?

  • TR: Obama’s appeal stems in part, ironically enough, from using his own form of triangularization against the Bush and Clinton crowds.

    Exactly. Hello, one of the things he’s correctly criticizing is the actions of his bested Democratic opponent’s husband while in office.

    zoe: I see where you truly don’t get what he’s talking about. You are distracted by the “god and guns” reference and aren’t really interested in finding out what he meant by that.

    joepa is really the example of what I said in #7: The mistake in referring to god and guns is that you know that people like Joe will zero in on this and miss the larger message. This was Obama’s mistake. He’s doing pretty well at putting it in context, though.

    Mary: Not too many John Edwards supporters here, I guess.

    I would guess that there are a lot of Edwards supporters here. I would guess that almost all of them went over to Obama and not to Clinton. Based on your behavior here, I would further guess that when you met an Edwards supporter while he was still in the race, you chastised that person for backing a white male. That’s the problem with taking up any argument that’s handy, Mary; you have no credibility.

  • Hopefully, Obama won’t relive Gary Hart’s 1984 New Jersey nightmare in Pennsylvania:

    In late May and early June 1984, Hart was locked in a tight New Jersey primary contest he had to win to deny Mondale a first-ballot nomination at the Democratic convention the following month. At a California fundraiser eerily reminiscent of Obama’s this week, Hart and his wife Lee spoke with reporters at a Los Angeles event. In one moment of carelessness, Hart, too, struck a nerve with voters in a critical state. As Time recalled:

    In a classic campaign boner, he exposed his sarcastic side at a fund raiser in Los Angeles. The “bad news,” he told a well-heeled audience standing on the lawn of a Bel Air mansion, is that he has to campaign apart from his wife Lee. “The good news for her is that she campaigns in California while I campaign in New Jersey.” When Mrs. Hart interjected, “I got to hold a koala bear,” Hart sniggered, “I won’t tell you what I got to hold: samples from a toxic-waste dump.”

    Hart went from closing fast on Mondale in the Garden State to a decisive 15 point blowout a week later. Mondale went on to sew up the Democratic nomination thanks to the delegates he swept in New Jersey. The rest, as they say, is history.

  • Mary, do they even have working class people on your home planet?

    Hard to say. We know it’s 1930s Chicago where she’s writing from, and the population is approximately 600000% black. And professors there teach the foreign Policy major and their students get Roads Scholarships. But there’s no word yet on whether or not working-class people exist there.

    There is an irony to so-called progressives here writing off the working class. Not too many John Edwards supporters here, I guess.

    Well, I’m a longtime Edwards supporter who came to back Obama. I seem to recall quite a few of us around here.

    I’m not working-class myself, but a number of my aunts and uncles and cousins are — union members in factory jobs, mostly in the communications and auto industry. And you know what, they are bitter. Pissed-off would be how would they put it, but bitter is as G-rated as you can make it for TV.

    Understanding the anger of the working class and expressing it is precisely what Edwards did and it’s precisely what Obama is doing here. Clinton, meanwhile, is patting them on the head and saying, aw, you look happy enough to me. Which one is condescending?

  • Mary,

    That is some seriously strong kool-aid you’re drinking. I say this as someone who at one time WAS a Hillary supporter. I abandoned ship when she turned to people like Richard Mellon Scaife for support. At that moment she made it clear that she will do ANYTHING to win, even meeting with the financial backer of the VRWC. I lost all respect for her then. I don’t hate her, I think she could have been a great president, but she has revealed that she has no scruples.

  • It is hard to demonstrate real caring and concern for those most different from yourself. Bill Clinton was great at it, and so is Hillary

    The vast majority of voters quite obviously disagree with your last four words. Check the polls not just on general negatives, but also on trustworthiness and genuineness.

    Hillary has tried to ride her husband’s coattails on the connecting-with-people talent. Can’t blame her for trying, but she simply doesn’t have his gift for it. The irony is that in this election, he’s demonstrated that he’s losing it himself.

  • But his is not the first instance if Senator Barack Obama showing a very clear disdain of improvised Americans and shows that Obama is very Reagan like in his temperament.

    That is why, to dispel this very undemocratic like position, Obama would do well to pick John Edwards as his VP, To show that he intends to work with those “bitter” jobless, rural Americans with some heart, plus it would also have the added benefit of getting Paul Kurgman off his case.

  • If you, like Obama, think that someone with a trade is less intelligent than someone with a profession

    Wow, Mary, that’s an obscenely wild stretch of the imagination even for a delusional and desperate person like you.

    Care to back up that bullshit with a citation?

  • I acknowledge that there is bitterness in this country but honestly the most bitterness I have seen is from elite liberals who are bitter against those that don’t share their beliefs. If they are not bitter they are condescending. yes it is condescending to assume that working class means stupid or easily manipulated. Or higher class means higher intelligence – it doesn’t.
    the truth here is that those who refuse to see what is wrong with Obama’s coments are those who believe like him that evangelicals, gun rights advocates and those against NAFTA are just stupid people with no valid basis for their beliefs. If you accept like I do that these beliefs are valid and enduring and are not the reactionary results of bad economic times then Obama’s insults are pretty obvious.

    Think how you would feel if I tried to say that the only reason you support Obama is your white liberal guilt over the subtle racism inherent in your insulated life. you would find it a ridiculous insult but you have no problem making broad based insults against working white people.

  • …Mary said:”There is an irony to so-called progressives here writing off the working class….” No Mary, that is what Hillary and John are doing…Obama is trying to be honest and ya know, start a discourse. Hillary’s comeback on this issue is just about the final nail in how I feel about her. McCain, I can understand, he’s a republican, but Hillary using an issue like this with what’s going on economically right now is just not right.

    …joepa37 said:
    “…and Peteco thanks for being honest by admitting at least that you do think they are stupid since they don’t vote the way you do….” joe please dont think Im an elitist cause I dont vote the way you do.

  • I think we should start judging Mary by her own standards of accuracy.

    “If you, like Mary, think that child molesters are America’s greatest heroes…”

  • Obama is addressing the very issues that are near and dear to Edwards’ heart. I actually have been wondering if by directly addressing these isssues– and bitterness– will bring Edwards back into the fray with a nicely-timed endorsement.

  • In Chicago, where almost everyone is black and elitist and no one has a non-professional job, Mr. Sneakypants can get away with his lack of acquaintance with working people. Few know this, but the entire state of Illinois, which of course elected Mr. Hucksterberry Finn to the U.S. Senate, consists of black professionals. There are no trades, services or blue-collar jobs at all in Illinois.

    Well, Mr. Harvard Law Review is out of his gated South Side community now, among the people who have to work for a living instead of making pretty speeches like slick, high-priced attorneys do. I know Hillary’s an attorney, too, but you can’t say she makes pretty speeches.

  • You know what? I have a college degree, I’m working on a second one, and I’m bitter too! I finished up my first degree in 2002 and couldn’t find a job. Not even the crappy clerical work I’d gone back to school to escape. The only difference between me and the people that Obama was talking about (apart from a fairly worthless piece of paper), is that I’ve somehow been lucky enough to cling to hope with the tips of my fingernails. And that is why I’m voting for Obama.

    IMO, his speech showed more real respect for the people he was talking about than anything Clinton or McSame have ever said. Hillary may want to blather on about how Obama was “looking down” at them, but at least he wasn’t talking down to them. He had the courage to address something real, using strong, honest words – even if it wouldn’t be a popular view, even if it gave the opposition some ammo.

  • Joepa37 wrote

    But the fact is that these people believe what they do because they have SMARTLY recognized that bad trade deals and lax immigration policies are a large cause of their economic problems.

    This has nothing to do with smart or dumb. We all know smart, and often educated, people that believe dumb things. As a class, Pennsylvania’s blue collar workers hold some dumb or confused beliefs. For example,

    Mr. Obama took about a half-dozen questions yesterday from the Johnstown crowd, and he focused heavily on the economic populism themes that helped Mr. Casey win by a huge margin a year and a half ago.

    “I want trade agreements that are fair,” he said, criticizing accords such as the North American Free Trade Agreement. “We can compete with anybody. But it should be on a level playing field.”

    Yet Mr. Obama corrected one woman who blamed NAFTA for the loss of several hundred local call center jobs that have moved to India. He attributed such losses to lower wages in other countries and the need for major investments here in education and an expansion of Internet access

    Perhaps, Joepa37 thinks that Obama should have let the misconception slip by because correcting the woman was bad for herself esteem.

    He also wrote
    Does this sound like someone who is pandering or offering panaceas?

    Sen. Barack Obama spoke of a brighter economic future in this former steel town yesterday, vowing that an Obama presidency would take a tougher stance on free trade agreements, improve the nation’s education system and invest billions of dollars in infrastructure and energy independence.

    “I don’t want to make a promise that I can bring back every job that’s left Johnstown. That’s just not true,” Mr. Obama told a crowd in the gymnasium of the Greater Johnstown High School. “What I can do as president is create the environment in which jobs are being created and people are being paid well and getting decent benefits.”

    Yes he’s offering hope, but not unreasonable hope.

    BTW, although I’m defending Obama, I haven’t made my mind up about who I’ll vote for. I was leaning toward Edwards when he withdrew and I still have a problem with Obama on healthcare and Clinton on Iraq.

  • Joe– dude, you have NO IDEA who you are talking to. Seriously. You seem to think that all liberals are rich, affluent or are somehow elitists– we’re not. Maybe in your blue collar family everyone is a Republican but in MY blue collar family (for pete’s sake, when I was growing up my dad was a miner) everyone is a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat. Yup, all the cops, secretaries, nurses, mechanics, delivery drivers and teachers in my family are liberal Dems. There is just as much of a history of working class liberalism is there is the Republicans rich elitisism. Look no further than the conservative hero Bill Buckley– could you get more elitist than him?

    Something tells me you base a lot of your stereotypes of liberals based on blogs. But the thing about blogs is that you don’t know who the hell you’re talking to, where they are, or the background of the people you’re talking to. But it serves your purposes so you won’t consider the possibility that your beliefs about liberals are based on stereotypes and VERY limited, narrow experiences.

    Unless you believe that only liberals drink lattes– which doesn’t explain why there are so many Starbucks in affluent Republican suburbs.

  • Good point, Insane Fake Professor. (No, not you, Mary.)

    I heard in Illinois, they actually turned the working-class people into a food substitute like Soylent Green and that Obama force feeds it to his constituents as some sort of mind-control agent. Is that true?

  • joepa37:

    “ts funny that you guys can only look at others critically as long as something matches up with your own condescending false stereotypes you find no need to self evaluate.”

    No whats funny is that you are doing what you condemn the “wealthy liberals” of doing: condescending to them because you are a working class “italian American from Scranton”

    By declaring your self stupid or the people around you stupid, you don’t critically evaluate yourself. Reducing one self in curiosity to a single world view is not critical self evaluation, its self exploitation.

    Lliving in the Scranton area you should see the bitterness and hopelessness that Obama speaks of. You and should and would understand it. You should be an expert about it. But for some reason either because you have you have lived in it so long that you have turned a blind eye to it or you really have become incurious and incompassionate and accepted it the way things are, its an attack, To which you respond by becoming “stupid” because thats all you got.

    Problem is, you’re not stupid.

    You are allowing yourself to be exploited and played because you allow yourself to be identified as stupid. Ge out of scranton because that the way the Scranton Elite has treated Scranton for well over a century. Get out of Scranton and go see what the “wealthy Liberals” are really like before you attack them for not understanding you. You’ll find that they are nothing like the Scranton Elite (who you don’ t really even rub elbows with or care to understand either…) who have shaped your world view by calling you stupid all yer life.

    BTW using the joepa 37 as a handle is an insult to the real Joe Pa; a guy who has ensured for over 40 years that his “kids” from the shit-all steel and coal towns of NE Pa, have the education, intelligence and confidence to not let the world call them stupid.

  • Petco
    so your point is that anyone who makes less than 200000 a year is ‘uneducated’ (euphemism for stupid) if they vote GOP. then of course since you need to Insult Clinton as well you also blame the bad policies on the democrats. so if both parties are to blame how is it stupid to vote for either one if you think that that party shares other values.
    BUT hey keep on thinking that the only reason people don’t agree with you is because they are uneducated and be bitter when the same bad thinking by Obama turns away independents in droves as has been reflected by the recent polls cof him vs. McCain.

  • I grew up in small town PA and most people recognize that they are in less than a zero sum game. They resent that both parties have more or less the same economic policies with different beneficiaries – the super wealthy for Republicans and oppressed minorities for Democrats.

    Either way they lose.

    Mr. Obama’s “the emperor has no clothes” statement about those people’s lives is completely accurate.

    BTW – I always have always wondered what happened to the child in that fairytale – did he get taken away in hand-cuffs with a hood over his head?

  • We can discuss, at painful length, whether people are actually bitter or optimistic. Or both. Or something else altogether.

    All of the above.

  • I think it’s ironic that many of the people who bash Obama for this choice of words turn around and talk about these people as idiots and ignorant rednecks. My God, what the hell do you think elitism means? It’s pure hypocrisy to call him an elitist for telling the truth: that people cling to issues like this, political issues, because they’re looking back to a better past. We therefore need to show them a concrete path to improvement in the future, he said, to not treat them as the sum of stereotypes.

    Then he turned around and spoke another truth: that he is not looking down on these people for their bitterness, that in fact their bitterness is shared across the country by those who have seen our government run pretty far off the rails. It’s time to stop hiding behind this fiction that somehow all the people out there are saints suffering with a beatific smile on their faces. People are angry, bitter and frustrated with our government, and they are right to be!

  • Mary said:
    SteveT, if you think working class people are the only ones who tell racist jokes, you’ve lived a sheltered life. If you, like Obama, think that someone with a trade is less intelligent than someone with a profession, you need to spend time outside taverns (all people lose IQ points when they drink).

    (to self) Should I even bother?

    Mary, you’re the one who raised the issues of working-class people and racism — only 88 minutes ago.

    (Mary #15)“Obama marginalized working class people first in his speech on race, where he attributed bigotry to those who are economically in competition with African Americans and struggling to make ends meet. Obama seems to hold some negative stereotypes about working class people and they are seeping into his discourse.

    I was responding to your (apparent) assertion that racism was a “negative stereotype” of “working class people”. I was arguing that racism is not uncommon in working class people. I was suggesting you needed face-to-face experience with working people and that visiting a tavern was a better way to get to know them than, for example, approaching people in a shopping mall. And by the way, alcohol doesn’t make people lose IQ points. it lowers inhibitions and causes people to be more likely to say what they really think.

    I do know working class people because I have been one. I worked temporary factory jobs nights and summers to pay my way through college. After college I ran the shipping and receiving department for a small (85 employees) company for five years. When I say “ran” I mean I supervised while working alongside the five people under me, doing the all the same tasks they did.

    Racism is not confined to working class people. But the racism, or tolerance of racism, hurts working class people more because it distracts them from the real causes of their frustration — executives who will do anything to increase corporate profits and the politician who have been paid bribes campaign contributions to do the corporations’ bidding.

  • I never said all liberals are wealthy. I just found it notable that Obamas original comments were made to a bunch of San Francisco liberal billionnaires.. That context makes it clear that his comments were condescending meant to try to explain why those poor working class people in Pa were too stupid or uneducated to support Obama.
    I would also note that I am not a republican and never said I was. You all just assume that I was becuase I don’t buy into your attempts to excuse Obama’s misstatemets. Believe it or not yes there are democrats who are okay with both gods and guns. the failure to understand that and to perpetuate the insult becuase I like many others have problems with Obama’s statements is why I think you guys need to get out of the bubble.
    remember Obama was going to win because he was supposed to appeal to both republican independents and Nascar democrats. Now when we raise issues with what he says the problem is with us being stupid not with his dumbass statements. Yeah that is the way to get votes.

  • Having grown up on a family farm before spending a decade building tires and then working in construction for a while, I think that bitterness has been there since Reagan broke PATCO. The genius of the GOP and corporatized Dems has been to channel that bitterness in wholly inappropriate ways (Reagan Democrats, NRA cultists, politicized evangelicals, etc.).

    Obama’s words were, purely and simply, troll bait. But it’s not like we didn’t aleady know who the trolls were….

  • SteveT– very nicely put, especially the last paragraph. You sum it up perfectly.

    I think the fact that Obama is talking about any of these issues is pretty surprising. Next he might dare say that poor black folks and working class whites have far more in common than they might realize– I’m sure the MSM will react with shock and horror!

  • Joe– so if you’re going to dress us down for stereotyping you after you go on and on about “liberal elite” stereotyping, then tell us where you stand. Are you a Hillary supporter? McCain? Ron Paul? Who?

    As for assuming that you’re a Republican, that might have something to do with the outright hostility that you’re tossing around at everyone. You don’t talk like someone who doesn’t have a very angry axe to grind. If you want to debate, fine, but you do it by attacking us– without having a clue about who you might be talking to.

    Think what you think about Obama. Clearly people here have a very different viewpoint and have put forth a lot of ideas about why they see what he says differently. That doesn’t make us “elite” anymore than it makes you “stupid.”

  • It’s not Obama’s statement that working class people are “bitter” that galls me, but his statement that “it’s not surprising they turn to God and guns” for relief.
    I have a working class background and I, for one, DETEST being patronized. Do you not hear the implicit denunciation of the ‘ignorance of the working class.’

    Frankly, this I find this a staple of the Obama campaign. For the past, what, eight or nine months, had you suggested that another candidate had a superior program or idea, you would have been toasted–no, flamed–as an ignoramous. Obama’s campaign, and the media, are always pointing out their lead with the college educated, and the hip.

    A good example is Samantha Power’s comments, the ones that caused her to resign. Not only did she call Clinton a “monster” and disparage Clinton’s looks, but she implied that the working class people who support Hillary are easily led, i.e. “stupid.” I think Obama supporters need to face facts: the guy is cold, elitist, and patronizing.

    Anyone who wants to call me stupid, can kiss my phi beta kappa key and my law degree.

  • What a mess. Let’s just hope that whenever this primary is over that we can all mend fences and get behind whomever wins and join together to beat McCain. It’s downright sad to think that we’ll hand McBombIran a victory because we can’t get our shit together.

  • The only people here calling working-class folks stupid are the anti-Obama trolls.

    Go watch the speech above. He’s saying working-class people don’t believe politicians will do anything about the economy because politicians have been making empty promises to them for 25 years and not following through.

    He’s not saying working-class folks are stupid. Far from it. He’s saying they’re smart enough to know when they’re being conned. He’s saying, of course the working-class focuses on issues like gun rights or religious issues, because their experience shows them economic promises are always empty.

    Go watch the speech above. Rather than filter his comments through Clinton and McCain and then through the media, listen to the man yourself and see what he actually has to say.

    If you don’t, well then yes, you’re stupid. Not because you’re working class, religious, or a hunter, but because you’re willing to let yourself get lied to so easily.

  • Goto L-

    Did you read Obama’s explanation of what he meant by the “god and guns” reference? In political circles its a pretty direct reference to the “guns, god and gays” strategy the GOP has been following for the past, um, 30+ years. It’s about scaring people into voting against the Dems because they’ll take your guns away, ban prayer, and allow gays to marry! Meanwhile it helps them avoid talking about anything truly important– issues that affect people’s everyday lives– like the economy, health care, jobs, etc.

    Where do you think Obama gets the idea that people are bitter? Do you think he made it up? Or do you think there’s any truth to it? I think people are fed up and he’s trying to tap into that. I can’t quite figure out what is “elite” about that.

  • Zoe
    You want to know who I stand for. The truth is that I am undecided at the moment but a registered democrat.
    Also I find it hilarious that you are so offended by my use of the phrase ‘liberal elite’. you failed to catch on that it was used deliberatly in response to the patronizing use by many here of the term ‘working class’ as if that was some monolithic block instead of being made up of actual individuals.
    Clearly you are offended by the term liberal elite because yoi don’t like being pateonized and stereotyped instead of being treated like an individual.
    Of course that didn’t stop you from saying I was narrow minded and just didn’t get it because I dared to be insulted by Obama’s comments which patronized and steretyped me and trivilized my beliefs in gods and guns as just reactionary bitterness.

  • Insane Fake Professor said:
    In Chicago, where almost everyone is black and elitist and no one has a non-professional job….

    Ah ha!

    I have been wondering whether IFP was being ironic since he popped up. I couldn’t tell because his over-the-top satire sounded so much like what the Clinton Koolaide drinkers actually contribute here.

  • Joe–

    I’m not offended by your use of the “liberal elite” as much as I happen to associate such a phrase in Republican circles. I also don’t find “working class” or any other euphemism for poor or lower class people as offensive– and I say that as a working class person.

    You’re not truly undecided. You clearly don’t like Obama, you find him patronizing because he’s willing to talk about the bitterness that exists among poor or working class people. So if he gets the nomination what are you going to do?

    Also, you might be part of the “god and guns” wing of the Democratic Party but I’m not. If there were a way for us to have an in-person discussion over beer I wonder if there would be much we’d agree upon. (I’m not suggesting that we do so, I’m just acknowledging the limits of having a dicussion in this format.) Although I like that the Dems have a big enough tent that we both feel as though we can still belong.

  • Guns & God = God(phelps x gays) + guns(timothy mcveigh et al)…unfortunately there seems to be a sub-group of people who secretly agree with these extreme views and would rather “cling” to the beliefs that gays and immigrants (i.e. anyone with funny colored skin) are the reason this country is going to hell rather than the politicians who play on their fears. There is nothing implicitly wrong with God or guns…it’s beating people over the head with them that is the problem…

  • I would suggest that my fellow Obama supporters here listen to joepa37–which doesn’t mean tolerating his stridency and stereotyping, just trying to understand the point he’s making–because if we don’t, our guy probably won’t win.

    joepa37 wrote:

    so your point is that anyone who makes less than 200000 a year is ‘uneducated’ (euphemism for stupid) if they vote GOP. then of course since you need to Insult Clinton as well you also blame the bad policies on the democrats. so if both parties are to blame how is it stupid to vote for either one if you think that that party shares other values.
    BUT hey keep on thinking that the only reason people don’t agree with you is because they are uneducated and be bitter when the same bad thinking by Obama turns away independents in droves as has been reflected by the recent polls cof him vs. McCain.

    joe, the key to Obama’s campaign as I see it, the reason I’m supporting him, is that he’s promising an effort to reinvigorate democracy with an eye toward leveling the economic playing field. If we all can put aside our foolish eagerness to be offended by who said what when, I’d hope we can agree that the Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush policies of the last 30 years have been absolutely devastating for the communities that Obama was talking about.

    Hillary Clinton offers more of same: essentially, ass-kissing for the “values” of small-town America, then pursuing economic policies that deepen the pain. Obama might or might not prove any better, but at least he recognizes that something has gone wrong–and he’s essentially asking the people of those communities to re-engage in the process and start demanding more of their government.

    (Admittedly, the way he asked this was clumsy and self-defeating. “God and guns”–two issues not central at all to his campaign–are motivators, but voting on the basis of those issues is kind of like voting for Ed Rendell over Lynn Swann because you’re an Eagles fan, not a Steelers fan. You can do it and it’s based in something real, but it’s not exactly rational. I think that was his point; he could have made it better)

    It’s kind of ironic that Obama is regarded as this political prodigy while Clinton is, by comparison both with Obama and her husband the ex-president, looked at as error-prone. The truth is that she’s much better at “playing the game”–mouthing the platitudes, knowing (per Steve’s post yesterday) how to order coffee rather than OJ in the diner–and this is why Obama’s “gaffes” tend to stick out.

    I think that he does need to get better at the political theatrics–but he can’t get away from that core message of calling us–all of us–on our self-limiting bullshit. If he goes down to the pearl-clutching level of the Clintons and Bushes (and McCain), there’s no point to his candidacy. But he, and we, need to get better at hearing and winning over the joepas of this race.

  • What’s wrong with this picture? Not even a full week has passed since the nation was supposedly “commemorating” the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and MSNBC resident racist political propagandist Pat Buchanan threatens Senator Obama’s life on the 12pm time slot of that station’s news program with Alex Witt. In the midst of mischaracterizing Senator Obama’s “bitter” remarks to suit his right wing racist views- and pathological hatred of Senator obama- Pat Buchanan (while chuckling wryly) warned, “Obama better not go to deer hunting country with those comments.” First of all, doesn’t this constitute a threat against a candidate for the presidency of the United States (a Black candidate already endangered); and secondly don’t Buchanan’s remarks underscore the perception of MANY liberal progressive Americans that the right wing gun-toting racists are overly prone to commit such acts? Pat Buchanan is STILL allowed to spew his racist hatemongering after his op-ed on March 21st denigrating Black people as welfare, Section 8, food stamp, government dependent former slaves who should be grateful to America for bringing them over here on slave ships. NOTHING has been said about this, yet Senator Obama’s TRUTHFUL remarks about bitter, disillusioned (with government), economically deprived Americans are afforded the status of political TSUNAMI! Shame on Reuters, AP, and all of the misleading racist “mainstream” media! Where’s the outrage against the racist Pat Buchanan, and his cohorts at MSNBC?

  • Zoe
    you continue to deliberatly mischaracterize what I say. I never said I had problems with him addressing bitterness with economic ills. My problem was him implying that belief in gods and guns is somehow a result of bitterness instead of what it is a positive intelligent non-extremist view.
    I also have a problem with the implication that bitterness is some unique characteristic of small town whites in pa.
    I also have a problem with him for implying disagreement with bad trade and immigration policies is a result of reactionary bitterness instead a result of well thought out analysis of what is the cause of some of the economic ills.
    In short what I had was a problem with was not the discussion of bitterness but the gigantic illogical leap that the valid beliefs of people are noting but a result of economic bitterness.
    by your ‘gods and guns’ democratic statement itis clear you share the dismissive contempt for these beliefs so its not suprising you miss the insult.
    but it is condescending for you to keep on dismissing my valid disagreement with Obama’s statements with just a refusal to get it.
    I get it I just think it is wrong and yes this is why I don’t think I’m likely to vote for Obama even though despite yourbiased assumptions I was initially open to him before I realized what was behind his previous vague happy talk of unity and change-.

  • Obama missed an opportunity here and created a problem unecessarily. The problem is more the “they” than the “guns and religion”. If he’d stuck with “we” rather than “they” as he usually does, he’d have said “we’re bitter”, and people would have been nodding in agreement, and he’d have talked about “so we turn to guns and religion”, and people would be saying, “okay, that explains why he hung out at an angry church”. (Not that Chicago Trinity seems to have been an angry church, but it would have helped alleviate the wrong impressions left over from the Wright brouhaha.)

    He can still turn it around by saying, “Bitter? I try to remain positive, but of course I’ve got some bitterness. Here’s why (…. condemnation of Bush policies………) We know why McCain likes all this crap, but why isn’t Hillary bitter about it?”

  • Dajafi
    I appreciate your listening to the point being made and trying to address it.. The one problem with your argument is that the Clinton years weren’t as bad economically as you are trying to pretend. ,e and many others did well during those years or at least stayed stable.

  • from swimming freestyle:

    “This video is exactly how Obama should have raised the issue: In the environment these voters live and with an appropriate anger. Rural working class voters have gotten the shaft. They have every right to be frustrated and even bitter about what’s happened to them.

    Obama now finds himself having to address the issue defensively, Unfortunately, the issue will now likely be obscured by the hysterical anti-Obama rants by the Clintons and McCains. Obama gave them that gift when he spoke in San Francisco last weekend.”

    http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

  • We’ve gotten so used to fake outrage (the “umbrage wars,” as CB phrased it) that I think the talking heads and blog types here are more wrapped up in who should be outraged and why than they are in Obama’s actual point or the honest reaction. Knee-jerkers like Mary see this is proof that Obama is evil, right-wingers see it as a weapon to bludgeon him with, even Benen himself sees it as a political football.

    Obama spoke his mind and gave an honest and direct opinion about why the mood of the working class is poor. He may be right, he may be wrong, but it’s clearly an issue that concerns him and that he has given thought to. That’s more than most politicians can say, and I think that to spin this as somehow insulting to the people he was talking about is the height of condescension itself. Like the Wright issue brought up race, this will likely bring up another important issue that needs to be discussed and can only benefit from honest and direct dialog.

    Sure, some people believe in pretending that problems don’t exist, or that acknowledging the country’s past failures or current issues is somehow anti-American, but I think the vast majority of people appreciate a leader who is thoughtful and who speaks his mind. And that’s why the reaction here will be isolated to the blowhards and demagogues.

  • SteveT @#67, IFP is our very own Steven Colbert, satirizing Mary. He/she is darned funny. I hope whoever it is will ‘fess up after the nominating process is over, I’d like to buy him a beer.

  • @ Steve very well said.
    I worked hard for 20 years and have been laid off and foreclosed upon. I have to admit I’m bitter as all heck. I’m now looking at a 2 year grind just two get back to some semblance of normalcy. The McClinton machine are the elitist ones telling me I’m optimistic is insulting. They are way out of touch.

    @ joepa37
    Its not that we are missing the presumed insult its that we don’t agree with it being an insult but more of the truth. Take a look at the anti-immigrant policies on the Mexican border. That border has been the same for 200 years with minor problems its really a non-issue in the lives of your average American. However it pushes xenophobic buttons in many and now all of a sudden we need this great wall/fence which does nothing for our economy, jobs, environment or trade. Its just fear peddling and scapegoating at its worst. Get the people angry suffering people to rally behind the latest boogie man, while the McCintons/Bushes laugh all the way to the bank.

  • The problem is that Obama wasn’t adressing the problem. He wasn’t talking TO the people. Instead he was talking ABOUT them to a bunch of rich whites and using these condescending statements to show those people he shared their elitist views so as to shake more money out of them. His decision now to try to coopt the Edwards message to excuse his statements is not genuine its just political two stepping.

  • Gilesjp
    your comments just show your penchent for talking about things you know nothing about. The mexican- american border has not been stable for 200 years. altough you seem unaware of them- the alamo, the mexican- american war and the problems of the early 1900 s are well documented as are the problems Arizona Mexico and such have been dealing with for years. Now I agree the fence is a stupid way to deal with these issues as do many dems in those border states. But it is just as wrong to assume that there are not real issues there. Indeed it is laughably condescending to assume based on your ignorance that racist white people are just being manipulated into xenophobia because they are stupid.

  • Sen. Obama preceded his controversial comments by talking about these same white people, explaining that they wouldn’t trust turning to him for solutions because he is a black man: “And when it’s delivered by — it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.”

    In other words, it’s yet another statement that the only people who haven’t seen the light that they should vote for him are stupid white racists, somewhat of the same sentiment expressed by Samantha Powers.

    But we learned from the Rev. Wright episode that hateful stereotypes are O.K. so long as you are black because of the history of racial injustice.

    I don’t know about “What’s the Matter with Kansas” but I’ve always hated stereotyping of the white working class — as in the movies “Mystic River” or “Gone Baby Gone” (both in Boston, not Appalachia or Pennslyvania) or that other Clint Eastwood movie about the boxer–her poor white relatives were depicted as exotic zoo animals. I’ll take “Brokeback Mountain” or “Silkwood” any day of the week for depictions of the white working class.

    It’s not fair to stereotype like Obama did and it’s not true. It shows the absence of a heart.

    Not to mention that in the same speech Obama referred to himself more than once in the third person. It’s creepy. The man has delusions of grandeur that are downright weird.

  • I hope whoever it is will ‘fess up after the nominating process is over, I’d like to buy him a beer.

    Seconded.

  • What joepa37 and others haven’t noticed is if you read any commits on any blog, there are no Pennsylvanians offended, but plenty of McClintons being offend for them. Its a straw man argument at best, trying to manufacture political gaffes and insults where none exist. I predict Obama has scored many votes on this issue as many Pennsylvanians will appreciate someone who has tapped into their true feelings, while the McClintons dig them selves into a huge hole by saying everyone is optimistic which is actually the true insult(only a moron or rich man would be optimistic in this economy).I predict come Monday Obama goes up another 2- 3 points in the PA polls while Hillary continues to drop.

    @joepa37
    please don’t put words in my mouth they are printed for all to see , no need for you to twist them and reillerate what you wish I had said. I did not say at anytime the border was stable, nor did I say anyone was stupid. If you are reading that then you are the one who is ignorant.

  • Gilejp
    your words are there for all to see including your false claim that the ‘mexican- texas border has been the same for 200 years’ which is just as false as your claim that no pennsylvanians have been offended when I have stated numerous times that I am one of the offended pennnsylvania as have others. But of course since that doesn’t fit your Obamaphile worldview you just falsely create a McClinton category so you can dismiss those who disagree with you. Go back and study -clearly you are a college freshman who thinks he is a lot smarter than he is but if you can’t even remember the Alamo you obviously are pretty lacking in actual knowledge.

  • @joepa37

    Again you have trouble with reading comprehension, if you read my post I clearly stated I worked for 20 years and was laid off. If the best you can do is deduce that 20 years on a job is characteristic of a college freshman then your logical thinking is indeed broken. Also at the time of the Alamo Texas was not even a state and was not within our American boarders, please keep it real.. Its hard to have a discussion when some like yourself are dealing with their imagination while others are debating and analyzing the facts.

  • We are so accustomed to politicians lying to us that we are suspicious when one actually tells the truth. We have every right to be cynical – most of the politicians in the last 30 years have continuously lied, pretending to care about what the middle class is going through, all the while supporting economic policies that piss on us: trickle down economics or by funneling our money into corporations that hand millions of dollars to CEO’s while screwing over the common man.

    Barack is fighting a huge battle for the middle class and those who represent big money in politics are pouncing on his factual statements in order to protect their socialized capitalism in order to maintain their millions while the rest of us struggle to afford groceries for our families. They will do anything they can to stop him from assisting us – even if it means painting him as elitist when it is them that sit on multi-million fortunes. That McCain and Clinton who have made over $100 million on the paychecks of the middle and lower-middle class is beyond hypocritical – it’s basically slander.

    He didn’t say they were a problem, he said they are cynical about politicians because they have been lied to repeatedly by politicians who have done nothing to improve their situations. He said that because they have no faith in politicians to help them they vote on their basic civil rights and their moral beliefs. How ridiculous to attest that he is elitist because of this – Barack is a devout Christian who clings to his faith, he is a civil rights attorney and constitutional professor who strongly believes in protecting our First and Second Amendment rights, and he is fighting to increase security on our borders… sounds like he was describing himself as much as small-town Americans.

    We are fed up – and we have to stand together to take back our government.

  • gilesjp
    I am well aware of the history of Texas and the United States. You were the one who falsely claimed that the mexican-american border was the same for 200 years showing your ignorance. Why don’t you just admit that you were wrong and didn’t know what you were talking about in your comment at 78 instead of trying to claim you never said what you clearly did. All anyone has to do is read your own words at 78 to see you are both wrong but willing to lie about it.
    And sorry I didn’t memorize your personal history. I guess I gave you too much credit in thinking you must be a childish freshman but i’ll accept that you are a ‘mature’ adult who is just unaware of actual history.

  • Tane
    your fallacy is not realizing that Obama is also a tool of big money interests. DESPITE his pretending to be a grass roots candidate he has taken money from corporate lobbyists for years (while making a phony distinction between state and federal lobbyists ignoring the fact that they represent the exact same corporate interests) just as has his benefactor Kerry. How do you think Obama raised over 100 million in 2007? it was from corporate interests and REzko type bundlers. Before you fall for the hype – check the facts.
    and the truth is taking this money doesn’t bother me that much. It is how the game is played. my problem is his playing the game while falsely pretending he isn’t.
    Experience has shown me holier than thou types are usu. tin plated phonies .

  • @joepa37

    Since you don’t seem to know the Mexican-Texas border and the Mexican-American border were mutually exclusive in 1836 it would also follow that you are unable to deduce the meaning of post 78. I will spell out to you what is implicitly evident to those with a sixth grade or higher reading comprehension .When I said the Mexican border was the same for the last 200 years did not mean the line thats makes up the border, but the security policy of the border to have no fences/walls. Sorry to confuse you.

  • Comments on the posts of three people here:

    Mary @ #30: “The routine of bowling, eating unfamiliar food, and shaking hands in diners is to demonstrate an interest and connection with all kinds of people. The charge of elitism comes when you cannot do that plausibly.”

    Orange juice is “unfamiliar food”? LOL. Is there a problem with “shaking hands in diners”? Hasn’t your precious Hillary done the same? So Obama’s not good at bowling, a game played by many people of all stripes across the country. But we know he’s great at basketball, a game played by many people of all stripes across America. How do these things prove or disprove that Barack Obama is an elitist? They don’t. What they say are: Obama 1) prefers orange juice to coffee (at least on that day), 2) he likes to meet people, and 3) he has practiced his basketball skills far more than his bowling skills.

    You are simply a parody, Mary dearest.

    joepa37 demonstrated his lack of integrity and honesty when he said (in comment # 70) on the Lanny Davis/Wright thread April 10th (in response to my comment #60) “now people on this blog are comparing Wright to Jesus”. Huh? What I said was that Jesus “inspired both MLK and Wright to become ministers”.

    joepa37 went on to say in that comment “If you think Jesus ever preached hate to other groups of people like Wright than you pbviously have no idea what Jesus stood for”. Hello, joepa37, I’m well aware that Jesus stood for love and peace. So does Rev. Wright. Read his sermons… in whole. Does he get passionate and angry? Yes, but at the inequalities of society. And why shouldn’t we all be passionate and angry about that? Rev. Wright is exhorting us to change our ways, not hate our neighbors.

    joepa37 further proves his lack of integrity and honesty in his comments on this post.

    It’s fine to disagree, but let’s prove out points honestly.

    OTOH Fake Insane Professor is hysterical. I always look forward to reading his/her posts. Perfect satire.

  • joepa37 wrote:

    I appreciate your listening to the point being made and trying to address it.. The one problem with your argument is that the Clinton years weren’t as bad economically as you are trying to pretend. ,e and many others did well during those years or at least stayed stable.

    Fair enough, but I’d argue that was more the result of the business cycle than any actual policies pursued by the Clintons–who after all were enthusiastic “free traders,” and chose (for better and for worse) deficit reduction rather than investment in human capital and community development as their guiding economic principle.

    I would like to recommend to you this recent article:

    For Many, a Boom That Wasn’t

    It’s basically about how nobody but the very rich got ahead during the now-concluded “Bush expansion,” but there’s a very strong implied critique of the general policy drift of the last 30 years–and a loud cautionary note about how efforts to renew the sort of investment strategy that worked after WWII are at risk of being “gamed” by the same insiders who have called the shots over that period.

    With all respect, I would ask that you ask yourself which of the two candidates is more likely to challenge those insiders: the former community organizer from Chicago, or the 16-year Washington insider who with her ex-president husband has become very, very, very rich over the last decade.

  • I have argued honestly. It is people like Gilesjp who have to ‘explain’ the meaning of their prior posts by totally recasting them ex post facto who are being dishonest. I guess he finally looked up the date of the Alamo and realized that it didn’t take place more than 200 years ago. Of course he never addresses my point that he was wrong that border and immigration issues are just an invention of the GOP to push xenophobic buttons. I always agreed that the fence was a bad idea -my point was that Gilesjp was wrong when he claimed it wasn’t the result of a real not manufactured issue.
    And Hannah considering that you once again in your post try to pretend that Wright preaches only jesus-like peace and love than you are just showing the honesty of my post and the ridiculousness of yours.
    My point is that Jesus never preached the Wright like hate and Wright can not be excused of that behavior just because he also made some less hateful speeches. But l’ll leave you to the Obama bubble where no contortions to exuse Wrights hate and Obama’s gaffes are too much. Clearly none of you want to actually be challenged in your beliefs.

  • dajafi
    well one person at least can enter into a real discussion. I see your point of the business cycles but if you look at the research that has been presented at the Angrybear.com you will see that good results under the Clintons are not just a result of business cycles. One can certainly argue that HILLARY Clinton may not be able to replicate the results and that is a fair argument. But I fail to see why Obama should be considered the BETTER candidiate on this issue just because he says so when he has no track record.
    I agree with Krugman and Elizabeth Edwards that his health care plan is problematic and his continued false claims that his plan represents universal health care when it doesn’t makes me question all his other statements.

    He got one thing right – I am cynical and honestly I don’t see what is so special about his candidacy. He is a man whose actual accomplishments (or lack thereof) seem to have been obscured by media hype and the fervancy of his believers (many though not all of whom seem motivated by Clinton hate or some atheistic yearning for meaning in their godless world).

  • Was his pharasing poorly chosen, probably, was he telling the truth, yes, i’ve been in cleveland for quite a while now, and I can tell you he’s right, people are not happy at the loss of jobs, at globalization.

    I think he should stick with it like he did in Indiana, make sure his words are chosen better, but don’t abandon it.

    America needs to hear the truth

  • #94 joepa37: nope

    I said Wright, like Jesus, STOOD FOR love and peace. Not “preached” love and peace. Of the Wright sermons I’ve read, I’ve NOT read hate, I’ve read concern, anger (anger is not hate) and hope for reconciliation. Are his sermons (and his delivery thereof) what most of us are used to? Probably not. That doesn’t make them hateful or wrong. I certainly don’t agree with Wright’s association with Farrakhan. Or his more outlandish statements (the AIDS one comes to mind), but in reading the quote in context I can kind of see where he’s coming from.

    Now to Jesus… He was quite angry with the Jewish leaders of His day for being elitist, ignoring the plight of the common people. He quite upset over the status quo and got the people to thinking in a different way about their neighbors. Stone the prostitute, which was the law of the day? He said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. The Samaritans, who were considered beneath the Jews? He told the story of the Good Samaritan, in which the “good” Jewish people (incl a rabbit) in the story did not help the man in need but the “evil” Samaritan did. Heal on the Sabbath (which was considered work, and forbidden by law)? Jesus did heal, and stood his ground when he was questioned about it. Treat women and children as equal to men (they were considered inferior). Nope, Jesus turned that on its head. And on and on.

  • What Obama really did that was unforgivable, and what he really needs to get under control, is to give new hope to Hillary Clinton’s campaign. Every time something he says gets blown into a huge controversy by those who pick up and sniff every word, looking for the potential of spin or scandal or insult, her campaign thinks, “Yes! maybe this is the one that will sink him for good”.

    I guess nobody found it scandalous to hear Bill Clinton again praising John McCain as an American hero, talking up his service to the country and remarking that “Hillary and John McCain are friends”.

    It sounds to me like Bill Clinton’s “dream ticket” is John McCain and Hillary.

  • @Mark
    You are absolutely correct notice how the McClintons tag team Obama on every issue now. Glad to see some who are not fooled by this insidious alliance.

  • Someone should ask senator clinton when was the last time she pumped her own gas.

    Or for the matter, when was the last time she drove a car. She’s not someone who should be calling anyone elitist.

    Someone should ask senator McCain how the affirmative action program called “legacy” got him into the Naval Academy.

    Oh by the way. Educated people who did well in math class know that Senator Clinton needs a 30% point victory in all the remaining contests in order to catch Obama in pledged delegates.

  • Joe-

    Aha! Finally we get to the core of what Joe truly believes about Obama-supporters, “many though not all of whom seem motivated by Clinton hate or some atheistic yearning for meaning in their godless world.”

    Are you sure you’re not a Republican? You really sound like one with all of your “liberal elites” talk and now you’re going after people who aren’t religious? Do you also believe that Obama is an undercover Muslim?

    One of the many reasons I support Obama over Hillary IS Clinton-hate. But not my own (I don’t hate her), but that of the GOP, most independents and a big chunk of the Democratic Party. I don’t think she can win, far too many people hate her and her husband. Not to mention the reason that the GOP wants to run against her is that it’s all the Get-Out-The-Vote energy they need– to vote against Hillary. Support for McCain is lukewarm. But with Hillary as their opponent McCain could not run a single ad, turn down every debate and STILL defeat her. It’s not fair but it’s the truth. Her negatives have been UNCHANGED over the past 2 years– it hovers around 45%. There are far too many minds that cannot be unchanged when it comes to Hillary.

    The bottom line is this– many people in this country cannot and will not support Hillary. Fair or not it’s appears to be a fact.

  • Americablog has a link to a Youtube clip from Blitzer’s show. The three pundits all agree that Clinton/McCain are barking up the wrong tree on this. That said, I agree with #98 that Obama needs to more careful with his word choices.

    I agree with the gist of what Obama said. Like so many other complex people, Obama is one you have to listen to and think about what he is saying. Not take the kneejerk reaction and only hear guns, gays and god.

  • By the way, I find it fascinating that people are so charged up about the idea that people are “bitter.” Did Obama make this up? Is there no truth to this? Is Hillary denying that there is any truth to the idea that a lot of people in small PA towns are bitter after losing so much?

  • Obama’s answer to the “welfare mother” attitude of whites – is to call white working class men and women who have worked all their lives, and are now unemployed or underemployed, through no fault or their own, – angry, gun toting, racists, religion freaks. (that last category is wonderfully funny if you think about it.)

    By grouping a large and very diverse group of working middle class white Americans into such a series of insulting and simplistic categories sounds just like racism to me.

    It is difficult for me to take Obama seriously. He is so busy trying to run as a Black man that he seems to have forgetten that he isn’t one. Whatother truths will he sublimate to gain the power of the Presidency?

  • Marnie,

    You’re kidding, right? Are we talking about the same quote here? Obama was talking VERY specifically about people in PA in small towns– not every white person in the world. He just spent nearly 2 weeks crossing the state in a bus, stopping in small towns, talking to people. Do you think he’s making this all up, the idea that a lot of the people he met are bitter and frustrated? Of course they are– but they aren’t the only ones.

    For pete’s sake, 81% of the country says that they think the country is “seriously on the wrong track.” Logically that translates into a lot of anger and frustration which RESULTS in bitterness over time. And how the heck is that racist again? He’s not even talking about white people, really, he’s actually addressing the vast majority of the country.

    Personally, I’m seriously bitter about the past 8 years under Bush. Any Dem who isn’t bitter or angry or thinks this country needs RADICAL CHANGE to undo all that damage needs to have their head examined.

  • Oops. It should say “Any Dem who isn’t bitter or angry or DOESN’T think this country needs RADICAL CHANGE to undo all that damage needs to have their head examined.”

  • #105 Ummm, no. Marnie, you need to think more about the complexity of what he’s saying. Obama’s point is that people who have lost out economically don’t think their govt cares about them, so they instead cling to those things that they can believe in, their faith, their family, their right to bear arms. They mistrust everyone that is not in their circle. Instead of voting in their economic interests, they vote for the party that tells them it’s ok to have religion, have guns, be afraid of immigrants and gays (ie the Republicans who then exploit this by actually taking away economic prosperity). There is nothing wrong with having faith and family (and guns I guess, though I’m not a fan), but that’s not enough to put food on the table or pay the doctor. How would you feel that your govt doesn’t care about the welfare of its own (taxpaying) citizens? Oh yea, the “ownership society”. What a crock.

    When people have their basic needs met and are content with life they are less likely to be afraid of/hate others. They are more productive, more positive citizens.

    Jack Cafferty (in the clip on Americablog) makes the point that those who are without/dissaffected in the middle east end up in al Queda training camps. He’s pretty right on there.

  • Zoe
    you insist on making the strawman argument that has already been knocked down repeatedly. No one disagrees that people are angry. What they disagree with – and find insulting- is the claim that religion or gun rights support is a result of bitterness over economic issues instead of a valid independent and enduring belief.
    and no I have no problems with atheists. Faith is a personal thing – and many moral upstanding people don’t share it. My problem is people who don’t respect my right to believe just like I respect their right not to. I also haveproblems with people who assume they are right and superior because they don’t believe in a superstitious god.
    the militant wing of atheism share a lot of the worst traits of the most extreme fundamentalists.
    My comment on atheiesm was merely that people naturally search for meaning in this world. they find it in many places. some in god and community.
    Many obamites though who haven’t found meaning in those places seem to want to find it in a movement larger than themselves so they fall for Obamas hype.

    and if you don’t like psychoanalysis of your motives stop doing it to others.

  • Hannah
    you can explain that he didn’t actually mean what he said all you want. That doesn’t mean people have to accept your explanations or Obamas especially when the explanation only came AFTER the criticism.
    If he meant what you claim he should have said that in the first place. But I don’t expect anyone who still perisist in the argument that wright stands for the same thing as jesus to understand.
    clearly in your mind you are the only person who understands anyything. If we disagree then we are wrong.
    you are free to find inspiration in Wright if you want. and I am free to find his arguments that the racist white govt. created aids as part of the war against blacks irreligius and divisive hate speech.

  • This was the final straw, the thing that pushed me, a NH John Edwards supporter, into the Obama camp. I have been watching, getting more and more concerned about the Clintons, and when the “elitist” crap, as if anyone with some brains and education were some sort of moral pariah, starts flying, I have had it.
    I have been called an elitist myself, in my small town, by some nasty, ignorant, unethical scum who wanted nothing more than power to hand out favors to their buddies. Because I simply tried to do the best I could for the community as a whole, as I saw it. I hate that term, I hate that brains and thoughtfulness and a love of facts are considered dirty things in this America.
    I will support Obama and I will tell everyone I know why I am doing that.
    I am bitter. I have had my country stolen from me by a bunch of crooks. I struggle to get by. Enough is enough. I want a president who speaks truth, not someone who attacks her primary opponent with that look on her face that lets me know she is lying, that she doesn’t really believe what she is saying, that this is pure political expediency.

  • Blooming pol your obama slip is showing I think this is about the 1000 so called last straw that false ‘ I was an edwards supporter’ got indignant about while parroting the talking points of the Obama campaign. No one is falling for the faux outrage so give it a rest.

  • Joe,

    Once again, you claim you’re an uncommitted Dem but you seem to have a pretty clear picture of what you don’t like about Obama OR imagine to be true about his supporters. You criticize others for stereotyping you while make HUGE, SWEEPING generalizations about why people support Obama as well as all disparaging atheists while defensively claiming that you want atheists to respect your beliefs. Huh? And you say that I am using strawmen. You’re using about a dozen in some really creative ways. For one, you seem to believe that most Obama supporters are all atheists when there is nothing I’ve ever read that would support that. Which would make sense if Obama were an atheist– which he is clearly not.

    You’ve proven your point– that no matter what Obama says or does you don’t trust him or anyone who sees in him things that you don’t. It’s sort of futile to carry on with this, isn’t it? You seem to be hanging around here just to make weird, confusing arguments about everything you seem to believe about him and us.

    We’re not arguing right or wrong here, we all seem to be seeing completely different things when we look at Obama.

  • Zoe
    my point was simple people who don’t understand that it is an insult to say religious belief is a function of bitterness are generally people who disrespect religion. Those people are forobvious reasons mostly atheists or agnostics . no value judgment there I respect one rigts not to believe and just ask respect for my right to believe. The people who lkept on insisting that Obama is right without understanding my position are part of the problem.
    No I don’t think all Obama supporters are atheist nor would I care if they are. But I do care about the disrespect and the trivilization of my beliefs.
    Obama has apologized for his insult which he calls a misstatement. Its his supporters who want to attack everyone who dared question it who are negating the effect of that apology and makes it seem nothing but the normal political two step not a sincere apology.

    it doesn mean Obama’s supporters

  • If working class people love Obama and he just loves them, why are so few voting for him (percentage-wise)? You all want to attribute that to ignorance — they supposedly just don’t understand that Obama is on their side (that’s the elitist part). I disagree. They see clearly that Obama doesn’t support their interests and that Clinton does. The stereotypes of working class folks as bitter, poor, gun-toting super-religious bigots is just plain ugly and doesn’t deserve comment. You might as well get it over with by calling them “red-necks”. Obama seems to think in such terms and he has no excuse for it. Arguing that such a stereotype is true is not worthy of Democrats, in my opinion. Yes, there are bitter people out there. Yes, some engage in hunting (have you ever seen how many deer there are in PA?). Yes, some complain in Limbaugh hate-radio terms, but most do not. Since when can and should a whole group be characterized so simplistically? That’s the harm of stereotyping, wrong when applied to any group. Arguing that you once worked in a steel mill so you have the right to talk about people that way, purely stinks.

    Personally, I think that people who have less economically and who are traditionally the target of scams grow to recognize and distrust fast-talking con-artists. I think Obama’s rhetoric will have less appeal for such folks, just like it has less appeal for older voters who have been around and heard it all before and thus are less impressed with big talkers.

    My own political views put me in Kucinich’s camp, but I couldn’t bring myself to vote for a man with a trophy wife. So, you are only partially right about the feminist contribution to my beliefs. I was more in sympathy with Edwards positions than Clinton’s but, like Obama, Clinton represents the chance for a historical breakthrough for an underrepresented group which I belong to, and that is important to me. I consider Clinton more intelligent and more hardworking than Obama, more egalitarian, more experienced, and I believe she would be more electable and do a much better job, partly because her personality is tenacious while Obama’s is equivocating and people-pleasing. Obama gives good speeches but he will be a crappy president, doing too little, too slowly, when we have serious looming problems that need strong, decisive action and the ability to barter favors and wheel and deal politically. Obama just isn’t the right guy for a crisis, in my opinion. When I hear people saying that they are endorsing Obama because their kids and grandkids love him, it makes me want to tear my hair out. That’s no better than voting for a guy because he would be fun to have a beer with. We have a global climate problem, a financial crisis, a war that needs to be ended, world confidence to regain, worldwide food shortages and conflicts over oil and water, and problems of globalization in 3rd world countries. Of course, people want their hope restored, but meaningful action is much more important than slapping a band-aid on our emotions.

    TR, you are just embarrassing yourself.

  • Oh, good; Mary’s spent the evening constructing a tale of her previous Edwards support and is pasting it all over every thread. Good god.

  • Obama is arguably the most religious candidate of the 3 of them– so I don’t believe that he sees religion as a function of bitterness at all. I DO think that in small, declining towns that many people do fall for the GOP “brand” as the god-and-guns party every 4 years or so. The Dems have struggled to change their image from the one that the GOP has defined for them– although thankfully I do think that might be changing now. The Dems are showing themselves to be tough fighters now, although it might get taken too far as they seem to spend too much time fighting one another.

    Which is why I think Hillary piling on this issue of “bitterness” in small towns is so ironic– she might beliee that she somehow appeals to them but if they have a choice between her and McCain they’ll more likely to choose McCain.

  • To Mary: This I have not seen HRC or JM do anything to prove they would be a better pres. than BHO. 2 things they cant do is motivate people and hire good people to implement their vision. They both seemed to be led by the people who work for them instead of being leader themselves. HRC can only pander in a way to get people to hate her opponent. JM chose not to understand the economy after being in office for 30+ years.

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