A job Clinton may not want (and probably wouldn’t enjoy)

After Hillary Clinton’s terrific speech in DC yesterday, in which she suspended her campaign and endorsed Barack Obama, it may be a while until speculation about her joining the Democratic ticket dies down. But in the meantime, Kevin raises a point that I’ve been mulling over.

[W]hat makes anyone think that Hillary wants to be Obama’s VP? I just don’t see it. On a social level, it’s hard to picture someone of Hillary’s age, experience, and temperament being willing to play second fiddle to a young guy like Obama. On a political level, she has more clout in the Senate than she would as vice president. On a personal level, Obama and Clinton (and their respective teams) just don’t seem to like each other much.

Now, maybe she wants the VP slot anyway. Who knows? But I think she’d be more effective in the Senate, have way more freedom of movement, have more career opportunities, and would do more for the party by helping to hold down a second branch of government than she would by being Obama’s shadow.

I think that’s right, for the right reasons, but I’d add just one thing: when the President doesn’t especially care for the Vice President, the VP job can be pretty miserable.

Over the last 16 years, we’ve come to think of the Vice Presidency as being a great gig. The VP has power and influence, a key seat at the decision-making table, and is something akin to a presidential partner. Forget John Nance Garner and that “warm bucket of spit” stuff, being the #2 person in the executive branch is pretty sweet.

But it didn’t use to be, and it doesn’t have to be.

Put it this way: the VP has as much influence as the President decides to give him or her. If the President wants the Vice President to spend four (or eight) years going to ribbon-cutting ceremonies, then it’s an boring, mundane job. If the President wants to make the Vice President something of a co-chief executive (cough, cough, Cheney, cough), then it’s a great job.

And now apply this to Obama and Clinton. I think Kevin’s right about the nature of their relationship. I don’t know either of them personally, but my sense is they’re cordial towards one another, but have spent the last year and a half as fairly bitter rivals. Forget warmth and geniality, these two probably don’t necessarily trust one another a whole lot.

Now, I know what many of you are thinking: but JFK didn’t like Johnson! And Reagan didn’t like H.W. Bush! That’s true, and they made successful tickets anyway.

But what these responses miss is that Kennedy didn’t give Johnson anything good to do. And Reagan treated H.W. Bush like “the help.” No real power, no real influence, no policy initiatives to speak of. Just wait in the corner. Don’t call me, I’ll call you. You get to be heir apparent, but not until I’m ready.

If the President doesn’t like the Vice President, the Vice Presidency is hardly worth having. On the other hand, Clinton is a very successful senator, with influence and the respect of her colleagues. It’s easy to imagine Clinton taking the lead in the chamber, partnering with an Obama administration on major policies, most notably on healthcare. My sense of Clinton personally is that she actually enjoys the work — showing leadership in hearings, introducing legislation, working out compromises, etc. She is, in other words, an excellent legislator.

So why get stuck in the Naval Observatory without much to do?

CB –

Republican rumor mill (remember I’m a physician) says that Hillary has asked Barack to be secretary of HHS. I thought that was one of the most ridiculous rumors that I have heard this season!!

  • Steve, I’m slightly surprised here. I agree with you that Hillary has a great career in front of her in the Senate, and would be a poor fit as Obama’s VP. What surprises me is that you’re always so up on the news, and there have been several recent stories about Hillary making overtures (usually through accomplices) to Obama’s camp for the VP position.

    I don’t think these clear indications that she’s open to being VP are based on logic as much as on her and Bill being stuck in their egos, and feeling it’s their right. Perhaps she just wants the chance to turn it down, with the salve of having at least been asked.

  • [T]here have been several recent stories about Hillary making overtures (usually through accomplices) to Obama’s camp for the VP position.

    To clarify, I’m certainly aware of the back-channel overtures, and have published multiple items about the various efforts. To that extent, sure, it’s possible Clinton, at least at this point, is interested in the position.

    We don’t know, however, whether those reports are fully accurate and/or whether they reflect her actual thinking on the subject. My hope with this item, though, was to consider not only whether it’s a position Clinton would actively seek, but also whether it’s one in which Clinton would thrive.

  • SHe doesn’t want to be the VP.

    She truly believes Obama will lose in the fall and she wants to run as teh I told you so candidate in 2012

  • I have been asking this question since this whole contest started. What interests me even more now than the question of why Clinton would want the VP position is why Armando wants it for her so badly. Why is this such a big deal to him and Clinton supporters like him? Why is it so important that Clinton take a powerless political position where she gets to sit around waiting to break a tie in the Senate?

    With the exception of Obama, she is the biggest mover and shaker in the party right now. She has the very real clout and visibility to make a serious push for anything on her agenda in just about any way she pleases. She can have enormous influence over the public discourse over the next few years. Instead a very vocal core of her supporters seem to want her to willfully coerce her way into the least important job in the entire White House. Whats the heck is that all about really?

    The VP job is not a consolation prize. It has its value for certain politicians an to the person that picks them but for Hillary Clinton, it is difficult to see what that value would be.

  • I agree that she has a good skill set to be potent in the Senate. That doesn’t mean she likes the work. And there is one big problem with suggesting that her consolation can be a major role in the Senate: seniority is a huge deal there, and she is very, very low on seniority. Heck, she isn’t even the most powerful Senator from her state. If you assume that she has the ego that most politicians have, you look at VP and say “at least there is only one.”

    Honestly, I think that is why Edwards was not a good fit in the Senate and didn’t want to stay; no offense to our friends from VA, but I think the same will likely be true of Mark Warner. Some people have “executive” personalities. Senate life, even if they are good at it, just aren’t for them.

  • 1. It’s probably true that Obama has a greater likelihood of being assassinated, and a risk of assassination is something that simply comes along with the job of being president.

    2. Being VP sets you up for winning the Democratic primary 8 years later.

    3. Obama doesn’t seem like the kind of person to abuse a vice president, so I would expect him to put her to work on prestigious assignments.

    So I do think she has plenty of reasons to want the vice presidency.

    However.

    I don’t think Obama has any good reason to make her vice president. Maybe I’m not watching closely enough, but much of her base I can’t help but feel are simply reacting suspiciously toward a black man with a strange name. Any white male who had come down to his sole opponent would have enjoyed the same supporters. And sure, I know there are feminists who are very into Hillary, but these are a tiny liberal Democratic group who will vote for the Democrat in a general election, anyway. Whatever they may say. I remember feeling enormous hostility toward the Kerry campaign last time after the things they did to Wes Clark, but that didn’t prevent me from voting for him. All of the outrage of the moment will be down to a few cranks in only a month or so.

    Remember how picking Gore energized Bill Clinton’s campaign? Someone who hadn’t recently been on the radar, but brought a sense of southern (relative) youth to the ticket.

    And does Obama need the baggage of Bill, when he’s trying to run a campaign for change? Do any of us need to feel like the presidency has become a contest between people named Bush or Clinton?

    Does he really need to pick a person who has been a rallying point for Republican fundraising for over a decade?

    I sure hope he’s smarter than that.

  • As CB posits, I agree she’ll probably return to the Senate where she’ll at least have some chance of positive exposure to the American public that she wouldn’t have as a traditional Veep. Of course Obama could plan for his Veep to to head taskforces for administration goals, sort of like what Hillary did with her health care initiative. But no doubt he’s playing his cards close in his talks with Hillary, and most of the discussion is based on speculation.

    We’ll have to wait until July to know what he does, since that’s when he says he’ll announce his running mate. I’m content to wait until then.

  • Steve, thanks for the clarification. I’m sorry. If you’ve “published multiple items about the various efforts” then I’ve read them – they just blended together with all the stuff I read on FirstRead and TPM and other websites.

    I think Obama has felt too personally betrayed by some of Hillary’s moves (e.g. saying that she and McCain were ready to be President, but Obama wasn’t) to trust her by his side. He will certainly want to make use of her exceptional skills, but will also want to keep her at arm’s length.

    The danger in letting her into the White House is that she and Bill have been there before, and would know exactly how to get their hands on as many levers of power as possible from day one, while Obama was still learning the ropes. On the other hand, the Clintons suffered from not having experienced hands in their administration, and Obama will need a coterie of old hands with him to navigate the perilous shoals and reefs of the innermost bays of power.

  • I can’t see Obama wasting his Veep and it would be political suicide to try to “stifle” Hillary. But I think Hillary bided her time in the Senate to get ready for an executive position. She might actually go Gore adn Bill’s route and leverage her fem cred to heading a major philanthropic organization. I think she needs to lead something, perhaps Freedonia.

  • I can’t imagine Hillary taking the job of chief ribbon cutter. But then I really can’t imagine Obama picking someone as a ceremonial VP. In fact, I would be very surprised if, when he makes his choice, people will be saying, “Brilliant it’s a much needed Southerner, woman, Hispanic, general, westerner, etc.” I think it will be someone with strong organizational skills, and will be given as much responsibility, but not power, as Cheney. I hope I’m right, too.

  • First, I’m sure she wants to be asked, even if only to turn him down.

    (Being asked and turning him down would probably be good for both of them. She gets her respect, and he mollifies her supporters a bit and doesn’t have to deal with her and Bill as co-Presidents.)

    However, even if she were to spend her entire VP term going to funerals in extremely insignificant and/or remote countries, she’d still have several reasons to want to accept. A) The non-negligible chance of inheritance, B) Going into the history books as the first female VP. C) A sufficient leg-up on the nomination in 2016 to counteract what would then be her age issue.

  • It’s interesting to think about the way Regan treated Bush I, and then take a look at who Bush I chose for his VP – ie, Dan Quayle – is it just me, or was Quayle just about the most retarded person to ever be in a position near the POTUS? Until Bush II, that is.

    Back on topic, I’d say a heartfelt “no thank-you” to Hillary as VP. She’s not a good match for the position or Obama as the presidential candidate. The repubs would have a field day with the advertising – “even Obama’s VP doesn’t think he’s ready to lead”, insert Hillary’s own speeches – making them more effective. She’s shot the party in the foot enough. That alone should render her unfit for VP.

    I’m with Catherine (#7). There’s been a Bush or a Clinton in the White House since 1981, counting the VP position. That’s too much.

  • If Hillary really, really wants to be president (and, more importantly, would be dissatisfied with any other end to her career), and she believes, as most of us do, that Obama will be elected this fall, then her best chance at the presidency is positioning herself as VP.

    Yes, eight years is a long time (especially when you’re 61) and yes, the VP’s job sucks. But if the presidency is her only goal, then she’s better off running as Obama’s VP than running against him or her in 2016. And if Obama gets elected in 2008 but loses in 2012, then she’s still in (a somewhat weakened) position to run in 2016. Most people sure as hell wouldn’t want to take on the presidency at age 69, but as we know, some do–particularly if that’s the only time they can get it.

    Backchannel rumors don’t just suggest she’s interested; they also report that Bill Clinton thinks VP is her best path to the White House. I suspect Hillary is mighty ambivalent about the whole thing and is including VP on her list of options to mull, not going wholeheartedly for the idea.

  • Obama has more or less said “We’ll find something for her to do.” Like many of those above me, I believe her talents could be much better spent in a position other than the VP.

    Staying in the Senate is a viable option, but she’s not going to be the Majority Leader any time soon. I think the most viable option would be giving her a Cabinet position– maybe Secretary of State? She would have much more freedom to work on her own projects, and there won’t be such intense scrutiny on her or her husband.

    Obama has mentioned on multiple occasions the Lincoln “Cabinet of Rivals.” John Edwards has got Attorney General with his name on it. I’m sure we could find something for Richardson to do. Obama’s even said he’s not against putting a Republican on his Cabinet… assuming he can find one that he thinks is qualified for the job.

  • Please let Edwards get the AG slot. We need someone in there who has some modicum of integrity. And someone who will restore out reputation to the world which means following up on the shit left behind. None of this Move Forward crap.

    And I would love to see Obama put a Republican in his cabinet. That would totally screw Limbaugh, O’Hannity, et al, who scream partisanship at every turn. I am hard pressed to think of any goopers who would be honest enough with any ethical standards where Obama could trust them.

    Hillary as SoS would be amusing because she is 1000x more capable than Rice and, while she wouldn’t be the first, she could be the best.

    And please, please refrain from using the “A” word (assassination). Just reading or hearing the word gives me such a case of the shudders I think I am starting to have a seizure.

  • For Barack Obama to ask Hillary Clinton to be Vice President and for her to then turn it down and publicize it would make Obama look weak, and would only serve as an ego boost for Clinton with no public benefit. I do not expect him to ask anyone that he does not expect to accept.

  • If the President wants the Vice President to spend four (or eight) years going to ribbon-cutting ceremonies, then it’s an boring, mundane job. — CB

    Depends on where the ribbon-cutting takes place. Bill Clinton might have preferred going back to, say, Kazakhstan, as the President’s spouse, but going there as the spouse of the Vice President still has more cachet than going there as a has-been. And cachet can be easily converted to just plain cash.

  • Secretary of State seems unlikely to me.

    She might be a good fit for U.N. Ambassador. It’s a high-profile position, potentially with lots of media attention. And she would pose less of a threat to Obama. Probably not a stepping-stone to the presidency, though.

  • I think Majority leader would be the best spot for Hillary. Lord knows, Reid has no balls and if we want President Obama to be able to enact his programs, despite Rethug minority obstruction, we’ll need someone tough. Obama needs a guy like Wes Clark, white, macho and southern, to balance the ticket. With Kennedy’s grave health problems, the Senate needs people of stature more than ever. I don’t know if that agrees with Hillary’s ambitions for now but I think that’s the best scenario.

  • Let’s remember that Hillary is not that strong on international relations, or even that interested it appears, so the thought of her wanting to be Sec. of State or an ambassador is not happening. She is most interested in domestic issues like employment and healthcare.

  • What in HRC’s past indicates she’s interested in or capable of carrying water for anyone whose last name isn’t Cinton? With no more math to manipulate, no more superdelegates to sway, and we’re still playing “accommodate Hillary.” What does that tell us? Hillary can’t be controlled, and that makes her dangerous.

  • I have to agree with beep.

    And Clinton doesn’t have enough seniority to be majority leader…and to be honest, after some of her votes, I don’t think I would want her there anyway.

    AUMF and Kyl-Lieberman were the worst possible votes. I can understand AUMF, we were coming off of 9/11, people were scared, the administration lied (although, the committee AUMF came out of knew it was bullshit but the members were, by law, not allowed to say anything. Durbin was stuck with saying Trust Me to vote No, but he couldn’t say more…his office got more than an earful from me on that one.) So while AUMF was bad and lead to this clusterfuck, K-L was a death knell for me. How could anyone even consider voting for that (goopers aside…when you’re doing the bend-over for the admin, it doesn’t matter any longer).

    I hope Clinton gets something where she can affect domestic policy positively for the people. That I can fully support.

  • Brecht at 9: I’ve seen many comments on this board about Hillary’s “threshhold” comment and appreciate that it offended lots of Obama supporters personally. (It didn’t offend me when I heard it, because my first reaction was that I agreed with the comment, but I understand — expecially from seeing the reaction — that a lot of people think it was over the line.)

    But the harsh comments went both ways in the primary season, though. Consider this radio ad that Sen. Obama ran in South Carolina:

    ” Obama: I’m Barack Obama, running for President and I approve this message.

    Announcer: It’s what’s wrong with politics today. Hillary Clinton will say anything to get elected.
    Now she’s making false attacks on Barack Obama.

    The Washington Post says Clinton isn’t telling the truth. Obama did not say that he liked the ideas of Republicans.
    In fact, Obama’s led the fight to raise the minimum wage, close corporate tax loopholes and cut taxes for the middle class.

    But it was Hillary Clinton, in an interview with Tom Brokaw, who quote “paid tribute” to Ronald Reagan’s economic and foreign policy.

    She championed NAFTA – even though it has cost South Carolina thousands of jobs.

    And worst of all, it was Hillary Clinton who voted for George Bush’s war in Iraq.

    Hillary Clinton. She’ll say anything, and change nothing.

    It’s time to turn the page.”

  • beep52, you may call it, negatively, “playing accomodate Hillary.”
    others a little less hateful may call it, more positively, “seeing how we can add her strengths to the team”

    you may not like her; i’m sure you have your reasons (although, really, i’ve had more than enough over the past 6 months of hearing Obama supporters reasons to dislike Hillary). but 18 million people disagree with you. it is easy to forget because of how well Obama did, but Clinton raised more money and obtained more support than any other Democratic candidate in history — except Obama.

    that doesn’t just happen by accident or magic. she clearly has some skills. and while you may not be among them, roughly half of all activist Democrats thought she had not just a lot, but the most to offer in a substantive way. she has loyal support among some key Democratic constituencies, and has spent a lot of time on some key domestic issues.

    i’m having trouble seeing why a President wouldn’t want to find a way to harness those skills, that support, that experience, and those constituencies if there is a reasonable way to do so.

    do I think she should be VP? no. my eyes are open enough to know that is a bad fit for both Obama and Clinton. but looking for other ways to bring her on board is not “playing accomodation” – it is simply Obama trying to use all of the talent at his disposal. your derogatory terminology for it isn’t helpful; fortunately, Obama appears more open-minded.

    personally, i think she should stay in the Senate (representing a major population/financial/political/media/electoral vote center) and raise hell there – seems like a pretty good gig. but if she and Obama can come up with an even better use of what she brings to the table and it suits them both, i’m all for it – and i would hope everyone else would be, too.

  • do I think she should be VP? no. my eyes are open enough to know that is a bad fit for both Obama and Clinton. but looking for other ways to bring her on board is not “playing accomodation” – it is simply Obama trying to use all of the talent at his disposal. your derogatory terminology for it isn’t helpful; fortunately, Obama appears more open-minded.

    I think thats a reasonable sentiment glass half full, and appropriately optimistic. I do think there is some frustration because a lot of the language surrounding this issue in the media tends to swirl around how Obama can approach Clinton in a way so that it doesn’t piss her supporters off. Supporters like Armando add to it with all of his disunity talk. I don’t mean to suggest that Armando and his ilk represent anyone other than themselves but they do help create the unfortunate impression of Obama being backed into a corner on this. I agree that, in a sane context, of course Obama wants to find a way to take maximum advantage of the considerable political strengths that Clinton obviously possesses. Of course he wants to work with her and for her to support him as much as she can. Why the hell wouldn’t he?

    My only concern is that with a lot of her vocal supporters out there trying to force a particular resolution, Obama is going to have to push back hard to avoid the political kiss of death of looking weak and the so called Democratic divide, which as far as I am concerned is basically mythological at this point, will become actual.

  • glass half full @ 26… labels like “Hillary-hater” are awfully easy to throw around, but in doing so you conveniently ignored my question (“What in HRC’s past indicates she’s interested in or capable of carrying water for anyone whose last name isn’t Cinton?”).

    Clinton is an extremely talented politician, and although she doesn’t own those 18 million votes that are so often cited (see polls in NY, CA, NJ since their primaries for starters), she does have her supporters — but it is intellectually lazy to connect the two as if the only way to get those supporters is to give Hillary a consolation prize.

    Her supporters need to be convinced that voting Democratic in November is in their best interests (which, by the way, it is). Determining where HRC might feel comfortable and serve Obama as president is another matter entirely. And lest anyone fly off on the notion that Hillary must “serving Obama as president,” that is what cabinet members do. And therein lies the problem posed in my question. I don’t see Clinton carrying out Obama’s health care plan or foreign policy or anything else.

  • Here is how the past and the future ought to unfurl:

    She is not going to be veep even if she wants it.
    One syllable reason why: Bill.

    If she had divorced Bill after her election into the Senate, we would be speculating right now on whether Barack “wants” the veep position. She didn’t. Her bad or her good? Well, given how badly she wanted to be president: Her bad.

    Historically you can probably now make the argument that Bill has destroyed at least three administrations or possible administrations: His own, Gore’s, Hillary’s.

    Regarding Gore’s administration-that-wasn’t:

    The election in 2000 never should have been close enough for Scalia to sodomize.
    Gore’s wimpy campaign is to blame partly for this. But so is Bill’s immorality.
    Like it or not: That election got tipped because of egregious and endless lies about a blowjob and a cigar-dildo.

    Regarding Hillary’s administration-that-wasn’t:

    Blame it on Bill and the taint of Bill. And you can bet there will be plenty of speculating on the weird psychodynamics and negative synergy of these two people. My gut tells me that if she had divorced Bill in 2001… her 2008 campaign would have been vastly different. Certainly, it wouldn’t have been as desperate-ugly as it was.

    Regarding Obama’s adminsitration-that-will-be:

    First: Barack won’t let Bill drown him too. He is way too smart for that.
    Second: If he is as smart as I think he is, here is the strategy:

    Get Wes Clark as a one-term veep.
    This makes a lot of sense for a variety of reasons.
    But here is the main one: Give Clark the responsibility of getting us out cautiously out of Iraq.
    Delegate all the ins-and-outs of that major task to him. He can handle it. It is a job absolutely grooved for his talents. Barack can focus his own energies on Health Care…

    Get someone younger to be veep for the second term.
    Someone to groom for 2016. Who? We all have our favorites. But the idea here is not to tire out the novelty of the 2016 Dem candidate by crippling them with 8 years of over-exposure as a glad-handing veep.

    One last thing: Make Clark Sec. of Defense in 2013…
    That is, assuming, and I have no reason to doubt this man’s talents: He gets us out of Iraq as well as it can be done.

  • ROTFLMLiberalAO

    Question: why would Wes Clark as VP get us out of Iraq? Wouldn’t he do that better in the Pentagon or somewhere else in the DoD? Do VPs have anything to do with war-planning (including exits)? That doesn’t mean Obama wouldn’t give his VP that task, but I rather doubt it.

    Until we know what role Obama wants to assign his VP, we are just shooting in the dark.

  • Am I the only one who remembers Hillary’s Bobby Kennedy remark?

    I know that it’s a horrible, ghoulish idea, but Obama is the sort of person who has high potential for upsetting the status quo. And then there’s the racial factor.

    I hope that my skewed worldview is can be written off to my rural Oklahoma surroundings. But if you’re cynical enough, taking the VP job doesn’t necessarily mean waiting eight years.

    I’m saying the unsayable because I’m thinking the unthinkable. I want very badly to be wrong, but there are some crazy, evil people out there,

  • ROTFL, that’s an excellent idea regarding Clark as a one-term veep. I like it. And, Aristedes, in answer to your question, Clark can’t be SecDef until 2010; in order to fill that position, you have to be retired from the military for at least ten years, and Clark retired in 2000. So, if he served as VP for the first term and SecDef for the second, that’d be a pretty good plan.

    Provided, of course, that Brian Schweitzer was named as the replacement veep in 2012. 😀

  • I don’t see why Hillary Clinton becoming the Majority Leader in the Senate isn’t possible. I’m sure the party can make a ‘seniority’ exception in her case. I think she’d be great in that position. I’d love to see her draw the line in the sand, and make the Republicans shake in their boots. (Insist in ‘real’ filibusters, instead of the amicable acceptance of defeat Harry has been doing)

    I also agree with Edwards as AG

    I would like to see Bill Clinton as Ambassador to the UN; he’d be great in that position, given his likability around the world. Something the US desperately needs at the moment.

    Why not having O-Neil (former Secretary of the Treasury) be in that same position. That would be a ‘republican’ in Obama’s cabinet.

    How about Colin Powel? and Richard Clark? All the people who were kicked out of the Bush administration, because they actually new the truth.

  • I’m pretty sure Clinton has played second fiddle before – as first lady – and so probably doesn’t want the VP position. I suggested early on that she’d make a better Senator than a VP.

    But it really depends upon where she wants to go. I doubt Obama would have a weak VP, as he’s always had strong alliances with others. Like his choice with Dean.

  • Bruno

    The Senate Majority leader is elected by a party conference in the Senate, and Harry Reid isn’t going to step aside so Hillary has a shot at the position.

  • What Okie said. People have already stated that they would kill him. When I was in GA there was a huge deal with some local paper printing a picture of Obama with a target imposed over him. One of the KKK loving people in GA had said that he was going to be killed if he was the nominee.

    Couple that with someone who is seriously bucking the system and it’s beyond frightening. The constant comparisons to JFK, RFK and MLK are too close to home, far too close for comfort.

    Every time I get breaking news in my email I am afraid to open it.

    The neocons have spent decades getting things into place which gave them the massive amount of power they have now. PNACers are scattered throughout our government. We invaded a sovereign nation. We are casually talking about nuking another sovereign nation. The PNAC plan is in action.

    Do we really think these people are going to go quietly into the night?

    If something happens to Obama, the resulting outcry will give Bush a reason to instill martial law. HD51, along with all the executive orders in place give him total dictatorial powers. We all know Bush is a moron, but Cheney is not. And who really runs this government?

    I fear for Obama’s life. And I fear for the lives of every American.

    To some this is pure politics. I think it’s much, much graver than that.

    And I am very afraid right now.

  • If the premise of this thread is”[W]hat makes anyone think that Hillary wants to be Obama’s VP?” then I would respond simply, because she stated that she wouldn’t turn it do if offered. I know I’ve read on this blog that it’s all a plot to undermine Obama somehow, but using Occam’s Razor, I would read that she’d like the gig.

    As I’ve said before, Obama will make the best choice as he sees it. And as a voter, I am interested in watching how he makes this decision.

    The members of the short list include Biden, Clark, Clinton, Dodd, Hagel, Kaine, Nunn, Rendell, Richardson, Sebelius, Strickland and Webb. Each has pros and cons. I am anxious to see how Obama processes the variables and arrives at a decision.

    I understand how many of you feel about Clinton, and I can respect your outlook on things. Politics gives one warts, and admittedly she has a few.

    But I also think she has some powerful assets too.

    For example, no one has born the brunt of the media more so than Hillary Clinton. And despite all that, only 6% of the delegate vote and 0.17% of the popular vote separated Obama from Clinton. She has polled better than Obama against McCain. And, oddly, I would argue that she will help to fortify Obama against some of nastiness coming down the pike.

  • Everyone who keeps talking about Edwards as AG needs to realize that the position of Attorney General requires expertise as a prosecutor, NOT a trial lawyer. Edwards would be better as Labor Secretary; John Kerry would actually make a good Attorney General, since he was a prosecutor for many years!

  • This is a rather long and involved posting, but I hope you’ll wade through it because it may add a slightly different perspective to this discussion.

    All these speculations are quite interesting. Yet, much is lacking and I would venture that’s because there aren’t many here who are Democratic “party” people, and fewer still over the age of 50.

    To fill in a few blanks, or at least offer points for consideration…

    Dimes to dollars Hillary Clinton has absolutely no interest in being vice president. Besides the fact that as first lady for eight years she could observe the “job” up close and realize its benefits and shortcomings, she’s not an “appendage” type individual, someone willing to slip into a role just to let time pass for the REAL prize to be in her grasp, i.e., hanging around as VP for her turn. She’s obviously a practical, results-oriented person, whose talents are likely to be best used doing things of action, that will make a difference in peoples’ lives. Despite the fact that her husband “gave” Al Gore duties beyond the job description, and despite the fact that Cheney usurped powers to the point of being labeled de facto president, the VP designation is quite bland, straightforwardly for one main purpose — to step in should the president be unable to handle his/(& now her) duties.

    If there were rumors floating that she’d take the spot, I venture it would only be because she thought it her duty and best for the party and country. I can’t imagine she’d be pleased as plums to take on the ceremonial mantle for her own personal growth and experience. There are far better ways to have influence and do satisfying, necessary work.

    One thing younger gen people don’t seem to grasp about this “party loyalty” thing is that it’s very real, particularly for people who have been devoted party people all of their adult lives. This is their home, their “family” as Hillary pointed out yesterday. They don’t consider changing addresses at the first fierce wind against them. They don’t like to be beaten in the great contests the political arena offers, but when it all comes down to it, there have traditionally been few “losers” who’ve put the damper on a fellow party member’s candidacy, to the point where they actually directed energy against the person to assure he or she wouldn’t win at general election time. Not only has Hillary pulled in her sails, she’s stepped up and asked her voters to follow her lead in making sure Barack Obama’s ship comes in. Whatever her personal disappointments, as a party person she couldn’t be expected to do less.

    One other thing I might mention is all this talk about what Obama must do to keep her appeased, things he might have to offer her, tactics he’ll need to sit on Bill, etc., etc. It’s actually quite likely that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have made their private peace (at that alone meeting at Diane Feinstein’s), and decided on a strategy they could and will work on to deny the Republicans in the fall. Don’t forget, they worked together as she pointed out for four years in the Senate, and were not private strangers although in primary season their public personas naturally seemed distant. Their campaigns were filled with passionate people who wanted to see the first person of color and the first woman become president and they, as individual candidates, couldn’t help but reflect and display in full view some of the excesses that such passion produces. Yet, now that the dust is settling, their personal knowledge of each other and like determination to end our national nightmare by putting a Democrat in office are the guiding factors in their relationship, so no matter what fantastic stories evolve, they are now in contact and will be working positively toward the same goal.

    Ultimately, if Barack Obama does offer something to Hillary, in spite of his youth (that’s a little joke), he has shown he has the wisdom to make it something that will not only enhance his election chances but that will be a significant addition to the success of his presidency… because he will ask her to assume a position that HE knows will utitlize the best of her talents and give her the serious participation in the healing of our country that she’s shown herself willing to take on.

    Lastly, this long and sometimes heated primary season needs to be put in perspective a bit.

    Americans in particular have very short memories about most things. In years past, the mud slinging and dirty tricks that went on made this year look like a garden party. And, there haven’t even been conventions yet. Time warping some, I recall police beating on protesters outside the McGovern Democratic convention, and have a vivid picture in my mind on the Republican side of Nelson Rockefeller pulling out the cord to a telephone on the convention floor then gleefully waving in front of the cameras — either out of anger or to stop some vote from occuring, I can’t recall. Tempers always got the best of people, even when truly ugly things such as the rumors Bush floated about McCain’s illegitimate baby of color weren’t in the mix. And once we push back the curtains of time to investigate some of the holy heck that went on INSIDE the White House — my knowledge of history is miniscule but I seem to recall an episode of drunken brawling, possibly in the Grant administration, where there was dancing on tables and swinging from curtains. Now, in political drawdowns and heated season, we go on the Internet and insult one another. Mmm. From that perspective, it looks like things have improved greatly indeed.

    It really is about expectations. In this day and age, we expect that things will go just so and be tidy. Well, they aren’t because life isn’t. Take a listen to how members of Australian, Canadian and British parliaments speak to each other in session and our congress looks pale in comparison. They yell and shout and, in the case of the British prime minister, make him stand there in the well and be subjected to frequent grillings that no American president would ever consent to.

    Well, I’ve meandered all over, haven’t I? Hope some of what I’ve pointed out has been helpful to understanding other facets of the Hillary phenomenon vis-a-vis Barack Obama and an historic upcoming election. If nothing else, maybe it’s been a tad interesting to read.

    Comments welcome, particularly to correct misstatements of mine due to faulty memory. That’s what happens when you get on…

  • Thanks for sharing that AO.
    Perfectly timed for a meditative Sunday….

  • It’s definitely true that Obama and Clinton are in two different worlds. After all she did spend eight years in the White House as First Lady, and that does count for something. Whether they like each other or not is important, but doesn’t much change the politics. With Bill forever lurking in the background there would be a shadow on Obama’s presidency that would become a distraction. In the Senate Clinton could be a real help to Obama, if she so chose, and could set herself up for a run down the road far more effectively than she could as VP. Hillary as VP is a real mistake.

    However much Reagan disdained Bush I, he was the go-to guy to get regulations changed or eliminated for the corporate world. Bush I’s office was where you went when you wanted something fixed or changed within the federal government. George H.W. played quiet, but was really a part of Reagan’s agenda to give corporate America what it wanted. And bye-the-bye, this earned Bush I lots of chits to be called in when he ran in ’88. He may have been out-of-sight, but he wasn’t out of the loop, including Iran-Contra despite his protestations to the contrary.

  • Another name I’ve heard floated around for AG besides Edwards is Patrick Fitzgerald, who is a prosecutor. Gotta be someone with some bigtime integrity in any case. I wouldn’t expect anything less from President Obama (selecting people with integrity).

    As for Hillary, as was pointed out above, she cannot be Majority Leader without the support of a majority of the senators and I’ve heard here and there that she doesn’t have that support. Other than returning to the Senate – maybe Obama could help convince Reid to get her some plum committee chairmanship – I’m not sure what else she’d like, except maybe HHS.

    A Republican that Obama could select for a cabinet position would be Chuck Hagel esp. as he’s retiring from the Senate. Of course he’s conservative but has had the balls to speak out against Bush on the war. Gotta give him some credit there.

    I hope Obama wouldn’t thin out the Senate too much with his picks. We’ll need all the loyal Dem Senators we can get to combat the Rs.

  • Re my #44 Pat Fitzgerald is a Republican IIRC, so that would be another reason to select him if Obama is truly interested in bringing the country together.

  • Don’t you think that if Clinton or whomever else is offered the nomination for Vice President is going to discuss with Obama the goals, expectations and responsibilities associated with the job? If Obama has a different vision for the job than the prospective nominee does, don’t you think that individual will decline the offer? In short, if Obama proposed a substantive Vice President, and that’s how Clinton sees the job, and that’s how she sees herself, and Obama offers her the nomination, why would she say no?

  • Hannah

    I saw Patrick Fitzgerald’s name floated for Obama’s AG a couple of weeks ago somewhere, and I have to agree with you that he’d be great in that position, particularly as a Republican since Obama wants a bi-partisan government. Fitzgerald won his integrity stripes under what had to be terrible pressure from the current government.

  • I think Patrick Fitzgerald could make an excellent AG choice. As a Republican, he could pursue criminal prosecution of former government officials without as much yammering by the right-wing media of going on a “witch hunt”. He could stand in front of the cameras and say he only was going where the evidence led him. And I think some people are going to have to pay for at least part of their crimes to clean up some of the behaviors in Washington. Otherwise they will all just cool their heels over at the AEI until the next Republican administration comes along.

    As for Hillary being VP, I think she torpedoed her own chances when she was saying McCain was more qualified to be Commander in Chief than Obama. I mean, how does one run an effective general-election campaign when your opponent can run commercials with your own VP-choice saying he would make a better president. I just can’t believe Obama would sign up for that.

  • You’re all forgetting Teddy Kennedy’s role as “Liberal Lion of the Senate”. He was able to do all sorts of good work in the past 30 years, despite (or because) not having an official leadership position in the Senate.

    I would love to see Hillary taking over Teddy’s role. She doesn’t have to be Majority Leader to do so.

  • It will be awhile before Hillary gets sufficient seniority to get key committee chairmanships where the real power lies. (Aside — it is going to be sweet to see Lieberman stripped of his).

    However, the Senate affords less scrutiny of her and her husbands personal/financial affairs.

  • Yea, Ba’al that’d be kinda sweet, after the 111th Congress convenes to give Hillary Joe Lieberman’s chairmanship and tell her to go full bore on Katrina; response especially. I think Hillary could be an amazing fiery lioness of the Senate. I admire her tenacity and command of the issues. I’d love for her to be the “go to Senator” for women’s, children’s, labor’s, family’s, GLBT’s issues etc. She could and would kick 10 different kinds of butt, try to clean up the last 8 years if it falls under her specialization. And she’d keep Obama on his toes, she’d keep him honest and liberal and pushing for liberal and progressive values. And she’d drag the other DLCers kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. Hillary Clinton for OUR Ted Kennedy, OUR LBJ. I’ve honestly beleived that the Hillary we saw the last 7 years in the Senate was the pre-Presidential Hillary and she voted precisely for her Presidential run. I feel and think and hope and dream that she is truly much more liberal/progressive than she has been since 1999. Once she sheds the emotionally constricting yoke of appealing to the centrist she can become her true self. I can see her being the next Ted Kennedy. She’s that good. ( Don’t get me wrong, I’m personally in awe and appalled that anyone could and can and did rationalize their votes in such a way. Basically, I’m ambivellent about many of her actions, I’m quite appalled about others. And yet, I can intellectualy see why she voted or said or acted the way she did. So, yea, I think once she gives up on 1600, she will be an incredible progressive and strong voice in the Senate, and she will be listened too.

    And I’m not one for taking good Dem Senators or Congressmen into the Executive Branch, mainly because we need them all.The Congress, the literal first branch of Gov., must be strong. That’s mostly why I’m against any Senator being Veep. We have a deep bench of governors, ambassadors, military experts and business mavens who should populate the Executive branch.

    I think John Edwards should be at HHS or Labor, and Elizabeth Edwards needs a big portfolio, she’s a true natural leader and hard worker and she cares deeply and she’s damned knowledgable. Or even give John the Poverty Czar thang Hillary was pushing months ago. I could also see Hillary at HHS, but she’d have more power to affect policy as a Senator than as a Cabinet Member following her President’s lead.

    My perfect Atty General would be Chris Dodd, just because I love the symmetry of him pursuing war crimes, crimes against humanity and treason against the “loyal Bushies” we’ve been subjected to these last 7 1/2 years. And Dodd’s father was a prosecutor at Nuremberg. And FDR and Truman, decided not to pursue Prescott Bush for aiding and abetting Hitler.And then Prescott got himself elected into the Senate, thereby innoculating himself. There’s some great and glorious and grand karmic full circle, sweeping justice to it all. I’m not saying it right, but remember in school, when you learned the history we were taught? If you took a far view of things A happened then 250 years later B occured and then another 260 years later C came about. And it all tied together? Cause and effect? Sometimes the 500 years would take a paragraph to get from A-C. Sometimes a page or two. Sometimes a chapter and sometimes an entire book, but it never failed that by the end of the history we all came away with the feeling that what happened was “just” and “fair”and “ordained.” (And yes, I do realize this is the responsibility of the writer and the editor, the school book publisher and the school district/ teacher/professor as well.)

    So, I’m saying: taking a hundred year view, and even a 500 year look forward, future students of 21st Century American History would walk away from their course and appreciate that the son, Chris Dodd, of the 21st century completed the father’s job from the 20th century. And it ties in perfectly with the grandson and the son of Prescott Bush also being traitors and actually paying for their own sins and the sins of their fathers.

    And, I think Obama needs to wrest and take away the powers of the Vice-Presidency from what it has become in the last few decades. Make it nothing more than “a warm bucket of spit” with 1 portfolio and all the ribbon cuttings and funerals that can be scheduled. The Executive Branch never became so strong until the Veep’s portfolio strengthened. Every time a President gives up control and power it seems that Congress also loses power. And that is because the most recent incarnation of Veep claims ‘”fourth branch’-ed-ness’ and “special powers” and “special dispensation.”

    As far as ” A League of Rivals” goes, I can see Hagel or Warner at DoD. I can see Fitzgerald at DoJ or even Iglesias, John Dean or any other of a number of ex Nixonites could go to DoJ.

    And if I were Obama, I’d have him ask any and all Republicans on his Cabinet attend the State of the Union. Don’t give the haters a really good reason to get rid of everyone.

    But mostly, for now, I trust Obama to run a general election campaign I can vote and work for. And I trust him to populate his cabinet with the best and the brightest this country has to offer, and I expect him to suprise me, to flabbergast me and to irk me. But mostly I trust him to be smart and to tell me why and how he was so smart.

    I’d love to see Obama come out by the convention with his entire cabinet. And with a first 100 days agenda. Then at his acceptance speech he could draw them all in and make a few promises.And they could each start working the Senators who must confirm appointments and they could each become another Obama proponent in their specialty. Hillary did so well because she had 3 Clintons stumping for her, but she also had many governors, congresspeople and senators give thesame message. She did flood the mainstream media well.

    And Hillary especially started doing well the more populist she got. Remember that Barack. Harold Ford,Jr, Lst TN because he tried to be Repblican lite. He’s the only Dem who lost in 2006 So, don’t go center-ward, go absolutely full-out progressive liberal. Ask for a mandate and you shall recieve one. If you don’t, then you and McCain will be fighting along the fringes. If you want to expand the map, then be proud to be a liberal, progressive, Democrat. The country is there, all the polls show the country has been liberal for quite a few years, they just want someone they can belive will get them what they want. Become the leader the public wants and do not ever listen to the Bobo Brooks etc. These people like the complacancy Get the public ‘Fired up!’ and ‘Ready to go!'”

  • Patrick Fitzgerald would be a very problematic choice for AG. While the media has been really, really, really generous to him, he is a Bush appointee who didn’t accomplish much in the Plame case. I would argue that he was chosen specifically because he was thorough, cautious, and professional enough to keep the process very secretive. Consider the obvious contrast to Ken Starr. And consider the results of Fitzgerald’s prosecution in the context of Scott McClellan’s rather casual comments about Libby, Rove and Cheney’s Iraq Group. I simply don’t see how we never got to a conspiracy charge, and why it isn’t being revisited.

    If Obama appointed him AG, you would start hearing the other side of the spin. That is, he prosecuted Rezko, but didn’t lay a hand on Obama. Now Obama is returning the favor. And look how much he tortured the poor Libby family. They may never be able to put the pieces of their lives back together. Boo hoo hoo.

    No. Fitzgerald is fine right where he is.

  • While I sincerely hope Obama doesn’t choose her for VP (it would go against his WHOLE message, as well as her over-the-top caustic mocking of same in her campaign) and actually make him look weaker, and make him seem too calculating as well as it would hint of him buying his way in (back room deals, etc.).

    But why Hillary might want it, is….she would be the historic first female VP in this countries history. That is no small thing. It might even lead to being first female president down the line, but even if not, it is one for the history books.

  • brent wrote: “The VP job is not a consolation prize. It has its value for certain politicians and to the person that picks them but for Hillary Clinton, it is difficult to see what that value would be.”

    That would be the experience thing, as in the “oh no your being First Lady don’t mean you got experience” thing.

    Doris Kerns Goodwin (hope I got that right) points out that Hillary, the Junior senator from New York, is going to have a hard time climbing the Senate senority ladder to get any prestigious chairmanships, much less any of the top leadership posts. And ahead of her are the likes of Kerry, Durbin, Biden and so on, whom she is far more likely to be unhappy with than she is with Obama.

    The Vice Presidency is considered by most as the only real basis for experience for the Presidency. It’s the stepping stone to get there. If Hillary wants to be President than she wants it.

    You’re right of course Steve that it doesn’t have to be the plum job Gore and Cheney have had. One thing I’m pretty sure Obama and Clinton talked about in their secret meeting was the scope and duties of the office, even if they didn’t talk specifically about his offering it or her taking it.

    Because we hear stories about how Obama’s campaign doesn’t like Clinton or Clinton’s campaign doesn’t like Obama we get confused about how the two of them really feel about each other. I doubt it’s as bad as LBJ and RFK.

    Tom Joad’s right about Obama having a hard time picking Clinton and not looking weak (I’ve said the same thing). But in the end, nearer the convention, after he’s had a chance to do some vetting (the friend of a member of the Weather Underground vetting anyone, what a joke) if he needs to say that Clinton is the choice to get the party the win and save the country, how could Hillary refuse and how (if we are going to insist that Obama’s choice overrides party democracy) can we critize him?

  • John McCain: Here’s to you, poor people!
    McCainonomics 101.
    John McCain: Your retirement is too secure as it is, don’t you think?
    John McCain: Here’s to you, OH, PA, MI!
    John McCain: Can’t poor sick children just get a job already?
    John McCain: 100 more years of war!
    John McCain supporting our troops by keeping them uneducated.
    Who knows better how you should act with your own body, why of course, John McCain!
    4 more years of Bush/McCain policies! They’ve worked so well so far!

  • Dee Lorelei, I love this paragraph: “I trust Obama to run a general election campaign I can vote and work for. And I trust him to populate his cabinet with the best and the brightest this country has to offer, and I expect him to suprise me, to flabbergast me and to irk me. But mostly I trust him to be smart and to tell me why and how he was so smart.”
    Thanks for another reason to smile today.
    As for Hillary as VP – Well, she’s already had that job. Just ask Al Gore.
    Nope – “Lioness of the Senate”, the go-to person for women’s, children’s and healthcare issues – That’s where I see her, too.
    I am also intrigued with the idea of Brian Schweitzer of Mt. as VP. Anyone know any negatives about him? Real ones, not rumors.

  • thanks for givin me the opportunity to say my view, i just dont think it would work for Hillery as Obamas VP, cuz the two are almost of the same level u digg!!

  • Thanks, MsJoanne – Really helpful website. I do think I like Schweitzer the best! He would appeal to a lot of people in the west and southwest. The video is a compelling description to how westerners think….. and his views dovetail very nicely with Obama’s.

  • I sure hope she doesn’t get it. Too many negatives.

    John McCain: Your retirement is too secure as it is, don’t you think?
    John McCain: Can’t poor sick children just get a job already?
    John McCain supporting our troops by keeping them uneducated.

    Why do I put these links in all of my comments? Click Here.

  • Come On EveryOne ……Why can’t we just all get along with each other….
    My own opinion also counts…..remember Freedom of Speech ??
    The Best Thing for HRC is to hold her dignity and just walk out of the Whole Muck!
    and sit back and Enjoy the Show..Just Admit IT..So Hil , justr hear me outI am like many other Cans..Let sit back and enjoy the Show Live from DC..it’s .WHNL..Why cuz she has got Front Row…and for those of You Who are in Denial….HRC TELL IT IS ….n Yes She’s the smartest Cook in the KITCHN…and knows how to Correct Herself when she is Wrong and without throwing Blame on Others.so Why should OB get all the credit for all the hard work HRC..has already done for him…Let OB rather say He BELIEVES HE CAN FLY! or learn how 2 mor better FLY…amidst the S-Flurries and Hold his OWN ( God Bless the Child)
    and with all due respeck has N-E 1 thought or better Yet…does this mean..or better , has anybody come with a New version of our Anthem cuz I imagine We are gonna see some Change …Yaw -Heah Now.just think about it for a NY Minute… ….So Remember Keeep IT CLEAN & GREEN…heads or tails will it be Rap or HipHop or Reggae.(My My miz americanPie tuk me chevy to da levy,,bud the leby was Dri)..Dozse Good ole Boys were drunkin Whiskey & RYE..singing dis al be …da-da-da day dat I die….oops got carrin away der….(Just Thinking)…Why not It’s A, Free Country??
    Well I for one will not Vote at All this Year…Well with the Price of Gas & Evrythang else that happens to be so Dad Gum High and so…on..and so on
    SOOOOOOOOOOO, like ED S..used to saY…..Lets just sit back and ENJOY THE SHOOOWWW! .
    HRC..l…We Will sit back and See The Show….& Will Wait our Turn ..and Who Knows …Maybe BY 4 Yrs time ..We’ll Be Ready For More Change….
    I always find Politics Sex & Religion…to be Best Comedy on This Planet.( Don’t Threaten me with A GOOD TIME!!
    .Let’s Not Forget To .Keep IT A GREEN PLANET!!
    BUT REMEMBER MY WORDS…>>HE”S JUST NOT GOINNG ANYWHERE just Yet N-E Way…& Don’t Say I D-N-T-Y!!
    A Comon Sense Kid OF GAL
    in Houston, TX….
    is High..You C What I’m Saying???/
    I will Prefer I mean in Rap or Reggae Just for American Pie…Myoh My..I for 1 am predicting OB’s is gonna Lose…Just Wait n See Just something b-twn the Lines…BTW…While the Message IS “Change”has anyone thought of change The Senators finds it very easy to admit when she makes
    AS for those that were whining about The Dynasty Curse….Well Truth Be Told ..Why is Caroline back in the LimeLight…Pray Tell What about t IS’: Who know/
    The main reason most

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