A sad day for the rule of law and American justice

This wasn’t a surprise, but it was nevertheless disheartening.

President Bush signed legislation Tuesday authorizing tough interrogation of terror suspects and smoothing the way for trials before military commissions, calling it a “vital tool” in the war against terrorism. […]

“With the bill I’m about to sign, the men our intelligence officials believe orchestrated the murder of nearly 3,000 innocent people will face justice,” Bush said.

That’s nonsense and Bush knows it (or, at a minimum, those who write the president’s remarks know it). We can bring terrorists to justice and acquire intelligence to prevent future attacks without this tragedy masquerading as legislation.

In describing this morning’s events, Dan Froomkin was at the top of his game.

President Bush this morning proudly signed into law a bill that critics consider one of the most un-American in the nation’s long history.

The new law vaguely bans torture — but makes the administration the arbiter of what is torture and what isn’t. It allows the president to imprison indefinitely anyone he decides falls under a wide-ranging new definition of unlawful combatant. It suspends the Great Writ of habeas corpus for detainees. It allows coerced testimony at trial. It immunizes retroactively interrogators who may have engaged in torture.

Here’s what Bush had to say at his signing ceremony in the East Room: “The bill I sign today helps secure this country, and it sends a clear message: This nation is patient and decent and fair, and we will never back down from the threats to our freedom.”
But that may not be the “clear message” the new law sends most people.

Here’s the clear message the law sends to the world: America makes its own rules. The law would apparently subject terror suspects to some of the same sorts of brutal interrogation tactics that have historically been prosecuted as war crimes when committed against Americans.

Here’s the clear message to the voters: This Congress is willing to rubberstamp pretty much any White House initiative it sees as being in its short-term political interests. (And I don’t just mean the Republicans; 12 Senate Democrats and 32 House Democrats voted for the bill as well.)

Here’s the clear message to the Supreme Court: Review me.

Obviously it’s too late, and I’m not suggesting we have yet another lengthy debate about a bill — pardon me, a law — that strikes at the heart of our system of justice. I nevertheless think it’s important to remember exactly what this measure, which Bush was “proud” to sign today, does.

Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted.

The Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret — there’s no requirement that this list be published.

Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence.

Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial.

Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable — already a contradiction in terms — and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses.

Secret Evidence: American standards of justice prohibit evidence and testimony that is kept secret from the defendant, whether the accused is a corporate executive or a mass murderer. But the bill as redrafted by Mr. Cheney seems to weaken protections against such evidence.

Offenses: The definition of [tag]torture[/tag] is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture.

Someday, our country will rediscover our values, decency, and moral compass. Today, however, is not that day.

I wrote an obituary for America when this law first passed Congress. Bush has now thrown the ceremonial handful of dirt on the grave.

What I want to know, however is this:

Is there any chance that these people can be tried in an international court for war crimes?

And, if so, will anyone have the testicular fortitude to do so?

Seriously … anyone know the answer to the first one? I think I know the answer to the second …

  • A very black day. To Bush the idiot, the Constitution is “just a goddamn piece of paper”.

    He probably meant toilet paper.

  • Triumph of the W. How long before this legislation is recognized for the travesty that it is by the majority of Americans? I think a majority of Americans must be made aware of it. I do not believe most are. I wish people would learn about this bill and then ask themselves if this is the kind of “rule of law” to which they would like to be subjected. The hapless Congress cedes more power to the imperial idiot.

  • TuiMel–
    It will be interesting to see how the media covers this. From what I recall, they dropped the ball when it first passed Congress.

    It also doesn’t help when blogs like ThinkProgress all but ignore it. However, Judd and Co. may just think that the Supremes will overturn it, so maybe that’s why they aren’t devoting a lot of time to it. At least I hope that’s the case …

  • How is a law reviewed? I know this is a stupid question, but if a person has no way for redress of grievances, how can the law be appealed? Who will appeal if there is no right of Habeas Corpus? Is every law automatically reviewed by the Supreme Court? This law seems so unconstitutional that I don’t know how it can stand legal review. Is there a process? How is that process started, and who can start it?

  • GRACIOUS–
    Four letters: A … C … L … U

    I don’t always agree with what they do, but this law is custom made for them. And I don’t think any prisoner would need to be involved — the law, on its face, is worthy of a look.

    Of course, it’s been like 20 years since I’ve had a civics class and I only play a political/legal pundit on the Internets, so …

  • International treaties trump domestic legislation—and Bush knows it. So does his rubberstamp congress. (Lower-case “c” applied with brutally-malicious intent—guess that makes me one of those “enemy combatants” now, doesn’t it?)

    Bush has no powers to grant pardons on issues that can be tried in the international arena of justice. Neither does his congress (there’s that scrawny little lower-case “c” again). Given this, I wouldn’t expect him to be travelling outside the United States once his term as president (damn—now it’s a lower-case “p”—must be contagious) expires in January 2009. It’ll also be a real hoot if another country—ANY country—decides to recognize Herr Bush’s actions as “overt war crimes.” How might THAT be handled, if he goes to a third country that has a mutual extradition treaty with the country naming Herr Bush as a “wanted war criminal?” How many other nations would throw decades, if not centuries, of international protocol and cross-border diplomacy down the drain for a frat-boyish Fauntelroy who goes about screaming “air assault?”

  • Unholy Moses: Thank-you for answering my question. A follow-up question is: does the ACLU need to take up a cause for an unjustly imprisoned person or can it just argue with the actual text of the law without finding a person who has been wronged? And it has been more like forty years since I had a Civics class.

  • GRACIOUS —
    From what I understand, they can argue against the law as is, without any person yet being wronged. Since there are constitutional issues (i.e. removing an entire branch of government from the process) then I’m fairly sure they can file the lawsuit today if need be.

    Again, however, maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can address that more clearly.

  • CNN Headline reads

    “Bush signs detainee bill huge victory for White House”

    Your liberal media at work

    The rights and liberties that this country fought for over the last 230 years has been reduced to some ploy for short term Republican Political gain

    CNN-Politics – More Headlines
    Bush to sign terror bill in major victory for White House
    Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:05 AM EDT

  • War pigs breed war crimes.

    Here’s the message it sends to terrorists: We’ve got a lot in common, let’s have lunch!

    And all the while ShrubCo is secure in the knowledge that the bleeding heart liberals will not try them under this disgrace to civilization they call a law. See you at the Hauge fuckwits.

  • “The bill I sign today helps secure this country, and it sends a clear message: This nation is patient and decent and fair, and we will never back down from the threats to our freedom.”

    Except of course when that threat comes from Karl Rove. Then the whole GOP (and even a few fuckers in the Democratic party) line up to warm themselves at the Constitution-burning.

    Remember the good old days when the first evidence of institutionalized torture began to come to light? The White House actually had the gall to pretend it didn’t have anything to do with it. Now it’s a completely different story. Why do I get the ominous feeling we will soon all be seeing the inside of these Halliburton-constructed concentration camps?

    If I may play the role of the guy who distributes the talking points to the vast left-wing conspiracy I strongly recommend that everyone refer to this law in no other way but as the Nazi Bill.

  • From yesterday:

    “QUESTION: Just a simple question: Are we winning [in Iraq]?”

    “SNOW: We’re making progress. I don’t know. How do you define winning?”

    Sounds like a group I want to have the power to define torture, how about you?

  • This is the Homeland Security bill all over again.

    Why is Bush so proud of this? If he had his way — if he had prevailed in the Supreme Court — this bill would not be necessary. And terror suspects would have never been brought to any kind of trial. He talks now like bringing them to trial was his idea all along!

    Just like the DHS bill.

  • Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted.

    The orginal House version of the bill (HR 6166) included a provision to define “Illegal Enemy Combatants” as “(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.”

    The original Senate version (S 3930) omitted this defination, which subjects us all to definition as an “Illegal Enemy Combatant”. The Senate later added it in (after publishing the version omitting it). The MSM picked up the original Senate version, and rushed to assure us that it only applied to the aliens. We are all subject to the whims of his Majesty now.

    I look forward to President Clinton declaring John Yoo to be an illegal enemy combatant just prior to signing the repeal of this travesty.

  • Isn’t this what the terrorists want? They hate our freedom, and apparantly, so does our President. Call me cynical, but this is probably the wet dream to top all wet dreams for neo-cons…at least the ones in the WH.

  • “The bill I sign today helps secure this country, and it sends a clear message: This nation is patient and decent and fair. . .”

    W actually claimed this bill is evidence of a decent and fair country. He was not immediately incinerated by a massive lightning bolt or swallowed by a giant earthquake. And so a centuries old philosophical debate comes to a close with definitive proof there is no god.

  • I’m writing this up now to make sure that my dates and counting is correct, but… I don’t think this is actually a law! I think Bush managed to pull his second veto of his Presidency!

    Check out Article I, Section 7 of the Constitution. By any measure, this bill got pocket veto’ed! If the President doesn’t sign a bill within 10 days (not counting Sunday) and Congress is in session, the bill automatically passes. If Congress is NOT in session, the bill lapses. It was 15 days (not counting Sunday) from when the bill was passed to when it was signed. The one way of arguing around this is if it required Congress to be out of session for 10 days, but I believe they have.

    I think the guy inadvertently vetoed one of his signature laws! Can someone tell me if I’m wrong?

  • So Ken Lay is innocent because he didn’t live long enough to appeal his conviction. That seems wrong. A person is innocent until proven guilty, but Lay was proven guilty:- the standard shouldn’t be innocent until all appeals are exhausted.

  • AnthonyNYC, you need to add Adams, Lincoln, Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt. All progressives, therefore all potential enemy combatants. The irony is that, without Franklin Roosevelt, we’d all be Republicans (and BushCo would be Democrats).

    Rick, no, the “pocket veto” is, by tradition, completely voluntary. If the pres wants to sign it, it’s signed…sigh.

    I still believe that this is the transition between the American Republic and the American Empire (think Rome)

  • How long before this legislation is recognized for the travesty that it is by the majority of Americans? I think a majority of Americans must be made aware of it. I do not believe most are.
    — TuiMel. @#2

    I’m afraid I do not share your optimism — that, if only people knew, they’d react against it.

    Every Republigoon (and some Dems as well) I’ve talked to since the congress has passed this abomination believes it’ll never apply to them, so it’s no skin off their nose. Those nasty Muslims deserve every bit of waterboarding they get.

    It is really unfortunate that, for all the frequent invocations of Hitler in our current political discourse, most Americans are really not aware of how Hitler’s Reich chipped away, bit-by-bit, at *everyone’s* freedoms, with full co-operation of the majority. The Jews, the gays, the Gypsies… None of them seemed worth defending. But then it was other “under-peoples”. And then those who did want to defend them… And so on.

    I grew up in communist Poland, under the rule of USSR. But even USSR at least *pretended* some decency in its laws. Bush doesn’t even bother to pretend.

  • To all you experts in this field, I have one question.

    How would you extract vital information from terrorists such as Khalid Shaik Mohammad and what the enemy is thinking/planning?

    Not interested in more mud slinging, just an answer to a very difficult question.

  • @#28

    How would I extract information from a guy who has been locked up and out of contact with the enemy for three years? I wouldn’t waste my time. I would assume that the enemy would assume that any plans he knew about were rendered worthless by his capture, just like any information he might give me. Send him off to trial and move on.

    As for more recent captures, I’d use the same police interrogation techniques that have served the US for years… I should say the same legal police interrogation techniques.

  • @#29

    Ok, so you contend we have gotten nothing from Khalid?

    So you assume the measures used today are illegal or there is fact to this statement? As for the police interrogation, your belief is the war on terrorism is a legal matter and not one of war? How can we be sure the police interrogation techniques are applicable or would be effective? there is not near the history to reflect upon regarding terrorism and these type of “criminals”, or whatever the heck they are, to understand the effectiveness of police interrogation. IMH opinion.

  • Well I just reviewed the Bill Of Rights, and this new law seems to violate 9 out of 10! Yay!!
    Who says W cain’t guvurn??
    Since protesters might be considerered enemy combatants, I am considering investing in the prison industry.
    I may finally own my own home!

  • @#31
    Maybe you should try reading the Bill of Rights instead of simply reviewing them. Your comments are absurd to say the least and have no basis.

  • #24, very interesting. On Findlaw annotations, it says he’s got 10 days after he’s presented with the bill even if it extends beyond the date of Congress’ final adjournment, which sounds like it means it doesn’t matter how many days Congress has been out of session, but it might matter what date the bill was delivered to the President. When was the bill presented to the President?

    It also says that the President doesn’t need to write the date or anything else other than his signature on the bill to make it law, and if the date is in question it will be determined by “the Court”. Does that mean that if it turns out Bush goofed and missed his deadline, all he’d have to do is assert that it was signed on time and if challenged, get “the Court” to agree to whatever date he likes?

    (I’m so pessimistic, I imagine that even if Bush totally blew it, he’d just have Congress pass some resolutions saying it was OK, they’d let it slide this time. Like they did when he signed that bill a while back that hadn’t been properly reconciled.)

  • Rick @ 24:
    I read somewhere (it escapes me as to which blog) that Bush was not “presented” with the bill until recently, which is how they are getting around the very issue you identified. Sorry I cannot remember where I read it.

  • How can we be sure the police interrogation techniques are applicable or would be effective?

    Why the shrillness Ace? You asked a question, I gave an answer. Why would police i.t. not be effective? You seem to discard out of hand the rules of the G.C. Are you suggesting that torture is effective? Go back and read what every single intelligence expert has said about that.

    Here is the uncomfortable truth: If someone is bound and determined to blow you up, torturing his buddies won’t save you. Nothing will save you. I suspect if we were talking about cops beating a confession out of a petty thief or even a murderer, you’d be just as outraged as the rest of us. For one, you’d know that confession was invalid and a possible murderer might walk.

    But because some people have convinced themselves that the only way for us to be safe is to beat up suspected terrorists (who could be anyone), they’re willing to throw their basic sense of decency out of the window. That’ the saddest thing of all.

  • From the ACLU ad in the Washington Post:

    “The Military Commissions Act of 2006 eliminates the right of Habeas Corpus for detainees who could be held for years without charge, and guts enforcement of the Geneva Conventions. The law allows detainees to be sentenced to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses. And, it grants officials in the Bush Administration a retroactive “get out of jail free” card for war crimes.”

    When talking to Republicans [as if that’s even possible] be sure to point out that we’ve now passed a law making it legal to act like Saddam Hussein. Except OUR leaders can’t be tried for it.

  • The network interface on my workstation is broken (and much of my work is completely non-computer-based, anyway) so I use an old computer (an iBook 2001 running Debian) just for net stuff – and I’m having problems finding the right amount of time to spend on this old computer.

  • As for the police interrogation, your belief is the war on terrorism is a legal matter and not one of war?
    –sidewinder

    If it is a war, then why create a law that violates the ruless that govern war (Geneva Conventions)?

    You see, the thing that’s supposed to make us better than the terrorists is that we treat people fairly, don’t chuck them into a prison without telling them why, and don’t torture them while in prison.

    This law tosses all that out the window. And not just for suspected terrorists — but for whomever Bush and Rummy decide could, in some way, shape or form, even without knowing it, and even without any proof, help someone they think is a terrorist.

    Are you willing to give every single president after Bush that same power? Even Hillary?

    I sure as hell am not …

  • Why the shrillness Ace? You asked a question, I gave an answer. Why would police i.t. not be effective? You seem to discard out of hand the rules of the G.C. Are you suggesting that torture is effective? Go back and read what every single intelligence expert has said about that.
    -The Answer is Orange

    No shrillness intended, just a comment. I think this is the crux of the debate, does the G.C apply to people who are not in uniform, yet waged in battle that is considered war? Of course I’m not suggesting torture is effective, noone in their right mind would. As for the reports, I doubt every single intelligence report reads as you suggest. Let’s take the political fight out of the equation.

    The political spin on this law is almost surreal. So we can agree to disagree on the merits of the law, but are you suggesting a military counsel will not treat these prisoner’s fairly than anywhere else in the world? So what happens when we close Gitmo, send these folks back to their homeland, and they end up in a ditch somewhere. Then your complaint will be the US did not do enough to protect these thugs. As for the law, the M.C will review the case, hand down a verdict, of which can/will be reviewed/appealed by the 2nd circuit court, which in my mind, is a luxurious option for someone trying to kill us. I think to paint this picture with one brush and suggesting your everyday American is now going to be in this situation is wrong and misleading. Too much fear mongering going on I think.

    I think what is unfortunate for this great country is the political facets of this debate have muddied the water so much that noone wants to talk about the real issues and the details of this law, both good and bad, and I think this goes true for both sides.

    The Bush bashing just serves no real purpose, as neither did the Clinton bashing during his tenure.

  • … of which can/will be reviewed/appealed by the 2nd circuit court, which in my mind, is a luxurious option for someone trying to kill us.

    Yet if someone tries to, say, kill your family, they have that “luxurious option.” Why do they deserve it more than someone with a funny sounding name? They’re both trying to kill people — what makes one better than the other?

    Also, you have failed to address one key fact: that numerous people have been held without charges and tortured, yet later released becaue they were, in fact, completely innocent.

    Since there are no rights to challenge the detention, no rights to see the evidence, and no way to throw out coerced and questionable testimony, how the heck is an innocent person wrongly detained supposed to defend themselves?

    All of this could be solved if these people were brought before an international court. It would add transparency in the process and, just maybe, prevent our country from looking awfully similar to those we are fighting against.

  • Also, you have failed to address one key fact: that numerous people have been held without charges and tortured, yet later released becaue they were, in fact, completely innocent.

    It’s no different than the current system we have in place right now for legal citizens. The system has it’s flaws for sure but is not near as bad as you suggest. To suggest the percentage of people we have held have been tortured for no other reason than we are pissed, and then released in preposterous. Show me the evidence of all this so called torture. You want to take the risk of waging war and getting captured, you better understand the consequences. War is not pretty. Again, you are blurring the facts with your “Save the thugs” mentality and give them “The same rights I enjoy as a law abiding citizen” thinking. Don’t forget, laws are not made for each individual, they are made for the “masses”, and unfortunately, there will always be mistakes because of this system. No system is perfect, so to “theorize” such a law exists is crazy.

    I would agree to some extent an international court could help, but I don’t think at this point in time there is much agreement between all the nations involved on how to conduct this.

    Do you really believe our great country looks awfully similar to those we’re fighting? Frustration is one thing, but to say such absurb things takes away from your ability to debate the issues.

  • It’s no different than the current system we have in place right now for legal citizens. The system has it’s flaws for sure but is not near as bad as you suggest.

    Tell that to this guy.

    Show me the evidence of all this so called torture.

    You’re kidding me, right? How ’bout this, and this, and this …

    Honestly — if you deny that there hasn’t been widespread abuse and torture, then we can just stop this right now, because you obviously don’t recognize reality. And please don’t give the “few bad apples” line. More than 600 service members have been investigated — it’s a systemic problem.

    Again, you are blurring the facts with your “Save the thugs” mentality and give them “The same rights I enjoy as a law abiding citizen” thinking.

    No, I’m stating the fact that for 230 years our country — at least in theory — assumed people innocent until proven guilty, believing that even a “thug” deserved a fair trial.

    But apparently, some are willing to immediately assume everyone the government rounds up as guilty, to strip away any rights they may have had through international and American law (since American citizens will also lose their rights if detained), and beat the crap out of them, and all for some false sense of security.

    Sorry, but your line of thinking has cost us to lose the moral high ground we desperately need to fight not a country or an army, but an ideology. Not sure what that’s so difficult to understand.

    No system is perfect, so to “theorize” such a law exists is crazy.

    What, exactly, am I “theorizing”? Have you actually read the law Bush just signed? If not, here’s some insight.

    Do you really believe our great country looks awfully similar to those we’re fighting?

    Let’s see here … killing innocent civilians? Yep. Holding people without charges? Yep. Spying on our own citizens? Yep. Ignoring a legal idea nearly 800 years old? Yep. Disproportionate influence from religious leaders? Yep.

    We’re not fully there yet, but we’re slowly creeping that direction.

    Frustration is one thing, but to say such absurb things takes away from your ability to debate the issues.

    And to completely ignore facts that are as plain as day and available to anyone with access to Google takes away from yours.

  • does the G.C apply to people who are not in uniform, yet waged in battle that is considered war?

    Then it’s covered by criminal law. Again, we have laws in place to deal with wrong doers (call them enemy combatants or mass murderers). Why do we need extra laws to deal with them? Because they might harm us? Then why not scrap the criminal laws applying to murderers or people who might be involved in a conspiracy to murder? Sorry, Talk about people trying to murder me or my family doesn’t scare me into wanting to scrap the Constitution and the BoR. I live in a big city, there are plenty of other wing nuts, much closer at hand that could finish me off just as easily, often with a combination of a huge automobile and a cell phone.

    However, I must say this: I don’t know how you vote and honestly, I don’t care. You seem to enjoy putting words in people’s mouth and taking the conversation in really bizarre directions. This makes it difficult to have a meaningful conversation/debate. For example:

    So what happens when we close Gitmo, send these folks back to their homeland, and they end up in a ditch somewhere.

    Are you suggesting these guys are safer in Gitmo? That the US is baby sitting them? And how do they get in the ditch? Who puts them there? Less rhetoric please.

    Then your complaint will be the US did not do enough to protect these thugs.

    Would it? That’s strange because the thought never crossed my mind. Perhaps it would help if you’d explain how they get in the ditch. While we’re on the topic, how did they become thugs? Are you suggesting being swept up with a bunch of people by a soldier makes you a thug? Again. How does arrest/detention = criminal? That’s one of the many problem with this law. It can apply to anyone, including you, me and some guy who just happens to have the same or similar name of a known bad guy. How does this help solve the problem? (People who want to blow things up.) While some agent is questioning fifty people who don’t know anything about the plot to blow things up the 51st could be waiting his turn to be questioned or not in custody at all. This law doesn’t help protect any, it makes us less safe, it is not needed and it goes against 200+ years of established law.

    The Bush bashing just serves no real purpose, as neither did the Clinton bashing during his tenure.

    Yep there is no basis for Bush Bashing. Of course, I carefully kept my remarks a-political but for whatever reason you want to claim any debate must be politically based. Sounds familiar…

  • Sidewinder @44
    Please re-read your post. We DO have the same laws for thugs and “law abiding citizens.” That is what defines our society. You seem to presume that everyone who is detained is guilty until they prove themselves innocent, only – unfortunately – they may either no means (if the government does not choose to charge or try them) or no fair means (coerced and secret testimony / evidence) to prove their innocence. No charge, no trial, no appeal. Handy.

    But, you appear to be so fearful that you are willing to allow people to suffer that fate, so you can feel safe from an attack to which the person who is being detained and treated in this wholly unAmerican fashion likely has no connection. I believe in the justice system of this country. I believe it is strong enough, awesome enough to deal with the real criminals (and YES those who perpetrate acts of terrorism are first and foremost criminals) of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. But, fearful people would subvert that system and settle for treating suspects like convicted criminals from the first moment they are detained. So many Bush supporters continuously bray about how “different” this enemy is; it wears no uniforms and has no state identification. Yet they also seem incapable of considering that dealing with an enemy that is hard to distinguish could result in arrests of totally innocent people. These people, by the way, have no military hierarchy and no state to come to their defense, so they are totally dependent on the fairness of our laws as a remedy for their situation.

    But, you can go on comforting yourself with the notion that everyone detained is trying to kill you or your family. That’s what GWB and his weak, ineffective administration wants you to believe. Don’t demand that he take the time to do the hard work of discriminating between real threats and imagined threats. And hope like hell that while Bush is parrying shadows, the sharks he ignores swim right past him and strike anyway.

    Finally, all I can say is I would be outraged if one of my fellow citizens was detained without charge, without access to counsel, without hope of being able to challenge the grounds on which he/she was detained FOR YEARS by a foreign government. When we behave this way and decide that detention = guilt, we give cover to those who will take it further than you believe (and I hope) the US government is taking it.

  • Do you really believe our great country looks awfully similar to those we’re fighting? Frustration is one thing, but to say such absurb things takes away from your ability to debate the issues.
    —Comment by sidewinder —

    I think we look pretty bad to the rest of the so called civilized world. We are at best creating a multi level system in which not everyone gets the same rights. I’m not talking about the right to have a good cup of coffee, I talking about the right not to be tortured to the point of organ failure or the right to a speedy trial in which you can be presented with evidence which can or cannot be explained. We are talking about treating someone like property without the proof of innocence or guilt. We are talking about someone being picked up in the middle of the night and not even being able to call an attorney. If you think this law just applies to foreigners, you are wrong, it applies to citizens as well. This law is a disgrace to everything we should believe as American citizens.

  • I think there wasn’t more outrage over this because most Americans are either ignorant about it or feel it won’t effect them personally. But, it few more innocent people are kidnaped and tortured, it just might produce a backlash.

  • ” the men our intelligence officials believe orchestrated the murder of nearly 3,000 innocent people will face justice”.

    Um, wasn’t the number one orchestrator this guy named Osama Bin Laden? How does this bill make him face justice when they can’t be bothered to go after him?

  • Crap, just spend 30 minutes crafting my responses and my computer crashed so I’ll have to respond in detail later tonight. Appreciate the debate and thought from your point of view. I’ll share my thoughts later.

  • Appreciate the debate and thought from your point of view. I’ll share my thoughts later.

    And let me echo that — it’s nice to be able to disagree and discuss, rather than just yell and call names.

    I look forward to your response, especially since I’ll more than likely be able to thoroughly debunk it). 🙂

  • Allright, I’ll try to take a shot at responding to many different posts as I’m definitely in the minority here………I’m apologizing up front for the “novel” of a post.

    *********************
    Honestly — if you deny that there hasn’t been widespread abuse and torture, then we can just stop this right now, because you obviously don’t recognize reality. And please don’t give the “few bad apples” line. More than 600 service members have been investigated — it’s a systemic problem.

    **********************
    Certainly I do not deny there has been abuse and torture, I think the disagreement comes in the form of widespread and systemic. Let’s look at the numbers, I would not call 600 service members (out of more than 170,000 on the ground in Afgan and Iraq) widespread and systemic. Even if every single one of them are convicted of some crime, it is less than 1% so to brush this picture as systemic is crazy.

    *****************************

    No system is perfect, so to “theorize” such a law exists is crazy.

    What, exactly, am I “theorizing”? Have you actually read the law Bush just signed? If not, here’s some insight

    ********************************

    This article is bunk. It’s written by a clerk from one of the most liberal judges in our Supreme Court history (Stevens) and holds no more water than something that was written by a Scalia clerk.

    ************************
    Let’s see here … killing innocent civilians? Yep. Holding people without charges? Yep. Spying on our own citizens? Yep. Ignoring a legal idea nearly 800 years old? Yep. Disproportionate influence from religious leaders? Yep.
    **************************
    These items you mention have indeed happened, but are you suggesting our government has concocted some secret plan to actively pursue these items? I think boils down to the fact you have very little trust in our governent.

    *********************
    Are you suggesting these guys are safer in Gitmo? That the US is baby sitting them? And how do they get in the ditch? Who puts them there? Less rhetoric please
    ****************************
    Of course I’m suggesting these guys in Gitmo are safer. To release some of these guys back to their home countries and subject them to the abuse and torture they will receive as soon as they hit the ground is what will drive them to disappear or end up in the ditch. Our solution is by no means perfect but would suggest things are not as bad as what they might be for these guys.

    ****************************
    That’s one of the many problem with this law. It can apply to anyone, including you, me and some guy who just happens to have the same or similar name of a known bad guy. How does this help solve the problem? (People who want to blow things up.) While some agent is questioning fifty people who don’t know anything about the plot to blow things up the 51st could be waiting his turn to be questioned or not in custody at all. This law doesn’t help protect any, it makes us less safe, it is not needed and it goes against 200+ years of established law.
    *********************************
    Yes, in THEORY, it COULD apply to anyone but this is where we differ,
    you seem to see this as a real possibility, I do not. It’s back to the level of trust we have in our government, whether it’s Republican or Democrat driven.

    *********************
    So many Bush supporters continuously bray about how “different” this enemy is; it wears no uniforms and has no state identification. Yet they also seem incapable of considering that dealing with an enemy that is hard to distinguish could result in arrests of totally innocent people. These people, by the way, have no military hierarchy and no state to come to their defense, so they are totally dependent on the fairness of our laws as a remedy for their situation.
    *************************
    So based upon your comment, is every police department and court in our country ignorant and incapable as well? The arrests of innocent people happen every day. Not condoning it, just a level set for you.

    Again, in summary I would just submit to everyone that the odds of this applying to the average citizen is remote at best……

    Ok fire away

  • Sidewinder, you are a very well-read and intelligent individual. Then you know that while remote, the odds of you or I being held without charge have still increased.

    When I “reviewed” the bill of rights, I had them pulled up in Wikepeadia. So I was on my computer, which one must read everything off the screen, so my “review” was actually reading, in detail. And yes, there is potential for abuse by an unchecked excecutive branch on 9 of those rights.
    My comment about a protester being considered enemy combatants? look how they arrested, and detained without warrant, citizens of New York City excercising their freedom to assemble during the Republican convention.

    But like most Right-wing Authoritarians, your comments lack perspective. That is the pschological make up of someone, like you, whom believes before they know. Read conservative John Deans’ book” Conservatives without Conscience” You fit the profile, with all due respect.

    I claim to know nothing, and believe even less. Thus, I feel I have perspective.

    The torture problem is systemic. Privatization of interrogators has led to the loss of oversight in Abu Gharib. Private security contractors working for Blackhawk Securities were the ones who started the firefight in Fallujah. Check this out.

    http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12829 and check out the video!

    And I am a Socialist, so I don’t trust Dems or Fascists(Republicans) either! we agree on that!
    I have followed American Fascism since I graduated in the early 80’s, when I found out Reagan wanted to modfiy FEMA to declare martial law in case of the perfect emergency.(like a terrorist attack) I have followed how his justice dept. murdered the develpoers, and then stole, the first profiling software, INSLAW, not to trackthe nations’ enemys, but Reagans’ political opponents.(Thanks to Harry V. Martin, wherever you are! Great investigative articles!)
    I watched in awe and horror at the Iran-Contra hearings, learning of the Rights’ plans to allow Iranian terrorists to hold our citizens hostage, so Mr Reagan could sway public opinion and win the election. In trade, he would sell them jet fighter parts,to fund a covert war, and let us not forget the intentional importation of cocaine to poor, black neighborhoods to, 1)ruin any remaining social structure, and 2), use those profits to fund, COVERT WAR!

    My friend, it is not the Left doing these things over and over and over again.

    It is The Right, the believers, not the sceptics, but the “you can’t handle the truth ” crowd.
    The only people I have ever been terrorized by, have been white men , with American Flags on their trucks, who want to kill me because I ride a bicycle to work. Too many times this happens.

    And the Napa Valley Police , whom I once watched torture a man with a tazer for 5 minutes after he was handcuffed. He flopped and screamed the whole time. I can still hear that shrill sound, 20 years later….

    It was not you or me that day, but it soon may be.
    Absurd?
    I do know better.

  • “So based upon your comment, is every police department and court in our country ignorant and incapable as well? The arrests of innocent people happen every day. Not condoning it, just a level set for you.”

    If I were to be wrongly arrested (assuming it were not for being declared an enemy combatant) I would have certain civil rights to which I could look for remedy. I would have a right and access to counsel. The authority that arrests me must charge me or otherwise show cause to the courts as to why I should be held or they must let me go. If, by chance, I am brutalized while detained, or my arrest and detention is the result of some sort of negligence on the part of the arresting authority, I will have other remedies available to me. This puts me in a far better situation than some hapless goat herder who may have been picked up in a sweep or vendetta/bounty arrest in Afghanistan. I also would have the support of family and friends who could vouch for my innocence and work for my release (again, it is key that I do not get myself declared an enemy combatant, because if that were to happen, my family and friends might know only that I had suddenly disappeared). This also considerably elevates my chances of gaining my freedom and clearing my good name as compared to any innocent detainee in the GWOTerra. But, then, you did not address whether/why you equate detention with guilt. PS: I said Bush supporters were incapable – I did not use the word ignorant, so “every police department and court” would not be analogous to Bush supporters. Because you think that we should not apply our existing laws to the GWOT detainees – that we need a special law and system of trial – you seem to be the one that does not trust the intellect and capabilities of the officers of our courts.

    My comments addressed only due process issues. I did not even go into the torture question. Do you deny that the preponderance of opinion in the military (including but not limited to the JAG corps) and among many with experience in interrogation comes down on the side that torture – setting aside the morality of it for the moment – is not an effective means of obtaining information? On what basis do you deny it? I do not want my country engaging in torture, and if I had a son or daughter in the military I would want them protected by the adherence of their CinC to the moral high road. Further, I would not want them (or any fellow citizen for that matter) to be involved in any way with the administration of torture – they would know that waterboarding is torture even if their CinC does not. Torture harms the victim, but it also damages the humanity of a person who administers it. And, I do not believe it works.

    Do you think the North Vietnamese were justified in beating and torturing American POW’s? I don’t. But, those pilots were a direct threat to the government of that country and had probably taken actions that led to deaths of Vietnamese citizens – which the government was determined to “protect.” Civilians in North Vietnam may even have felt terrorized by American bombing. Who knows? They may even have condoned and justified the torture of American POW’s – anything to make the bombing stop so people could feel safe again.

    Other random thoughts:
    How do you know that all detainees would be “safer” in Gitmo? Any chance that some might have wives, children, parents, and siblings to whom they might return? What is the harm of having a transparent process to find out?

    Sadly, I do not simply “trust” my government today. I feel it (as personified by the Bush administration) is dishonest, incompetent, and totally without respect for the intelligence of the people it ostensibly serves. I sincerely hope your faith is justified. At this point, since there is no Congressional oversight, hope is about all I’ve got while the Bush gang inhabits the Presidency. But, care to share the basis for your trust in the government – specifically the Bush administration?

  • Al B —

    On your “protestor vs. combatant” comparison and the NY arrests during the Republican convention. My memory is sure to be foggy but I recall it being a fiasco to say the least. I certainly would not suggest I agreed with the police tactics but I don’t recall the situation migrating into “these are enemy combatants”. I would submit any protests in this day and age are getting a lot more scrutiny than ever before, and I think it is due to the uneasy feeling extremists from (both within and without the US) have placed upon our authority figures. Better safe than sorry seems to be the mantra of the times. I agree to some extent, but unfortunately the line becomes fuzzy in the eyes of some individuals put into this authoritative position.

    As for the Reagan era conspiracy’s, I can honestly say I am not up to speed on all the details you reference, but I would submit to you I am not in full agreement. I would for sure have to refresh on some of the items you cite, but suggesting a President of our country would stoop to these levels for purely political gain, I just ain’t buying it all. There is a whole host of disgraceful insinuations the right brought against Clinton during his tenure about people with damaging information mysteriously disappearing.

    The Napa Valley Police situation is appalling and feel for you having to witness such a heinous act. I would hope that whether I lean to the right or left is completely irrelevant of such a despicable act so I’m not sure what the point was with this information? Are you suggesting there is some Republican lead law put in place to allow such an act? Again, I’ve missed the point here and would certainly hope the officers were held accountable.

    I refuse to live as if tomorrow I will be that guy…….call me nieve.

  • While it’s nice to feel like you can trust your government, we’re not supposed to have to trust our government. That’s why we have the Constitution, so we don’t have to rely on whoever’s in charge at the moment to give us due process out of the goodness of his precious heart.

    You sure you gonna trust the next guy this much? I sure hope so because he’s going to inherit this same power.

  • This article is bunk. It’s written by a clerk from one of the most liberal judges in our Supreme Court history (Stevens) and holds no more water than something that was written by a Scalia clerk.

    Yet you fail to offer a single, solitary shred of evidence for why, in a legal sense, it is bunk. You just write it off as being partisan.

    So I ask you: Please show me where the legal analysis is wrong.

    As far as 600+ not being “systemic,” what you don’t acknowledge are two key facts:

    1.) Not all of the 170K in the Middle East work in the prisons, so that number cannot be used as a basis. Instead, look at the few thousand that work as MPs or otherwise stationed at the prisons. Also, trying to make it into a percentage instead of focusing on the real numbers is nothing by obfuscation. The fact there are hundreds of “bad apples” should be of a huge concern. Which leads me to …

    2.) Are you really trying to state that there just happened to be 600+ “bad apples” that also happened to be scattered at half a dozen prisons in several different countries? Sorry, but I ain’t buyin’ it. If it had happened at one or even two prisons by a few dozen guards, okay. But when something happenes in every theater of operation, in similar ways, by hundreds of people, then it is the very definition of “systemic.”

    Don’t get me wrong — I’m not saying that Rummy, Dummy or Dick ordered the abuse. I am saying, however, that I’d be stunned if Rummy, Dummy and Dick did not know that it happened, and that they probably didn’t really care, mainly because they’ve shown so little compassion in the past 6 years. The one common denominator was the general in charge: Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski. And he was placed there by Rummy himself.

    These items you mention have indeed happened, but are you suggesting our government has concocted some secret plan to actively pursue these items?

    Well, except for the killing of civilians (which is from gross negligence), yes. Why? Because every single shred of evidence proves them true. I don’t have time to provide links, but if necessary I can.

    I think boils down to the fact you have very little trust in our governent.

    Which, last I checked, is not only my right, but my DUTY as an American citizen.

    I honestly don’t know when some people (such as you) came to the conclusion that we’re just supposed to trust our government. This country was based upon the idea that we can NOT trust them. Thus the checks and balances, the right to petition the gov’t for grievances, habeus corpus, free speech, etc. etc. etc.

    But now, for reasons I don’t fully understand, we’re supposed to ignore that. We’re just supposed to be okay with giving the President unprecedented powers … we’re just supposed to always support our leaders … and we’re just supposed to trust them to do the right thing. And why? Because they’re “protecting” us? Bullshit. All they’re doing is using fear to keep people in line. The problem is that nearly 70% of the American people are no longer buying it. And when you can no longer scare people into believing you’re their protector, then everything else crumbles, showing the rot underneath.

    Did you, sidewinder, trust the government when Clinton was in office? Are you willing to let a Democratic President — whether it be Al Gore, or Russ Feingold (my choice), or Wes Clark, or **gasp** Hillary — have that exact same power? Do you want Al Gore issuing hundreds of signing statements saying that he can ignore certain laws? Do you want Feingold to datamine billions of phone calls? Do you want Hillary choosing who is an enemy combatant (even U.S. citizens, if she so chooses)?

    I’m not. And I support these people (well, except for Hillary, but that’s for another thread).

    The thing is, sidewinder, is that I’m not really as partisan as I come across. But every … single … shred … of … evidence … and … logic … has shown me that the current administration is corrupt, clueless, and uncaring. And while anyone can have their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts.

  • Sidewinder, (the snake or the missle?),
    Thanks for the respectful response, I do enjoy practicing my poor debating skills with others.
    In your response, several times you mentioned that you were”foggy” on a recollection, or you were not up to snuff on the facts of the Reagan Admin. follies. I gave you story leads, to help you dig deeper to find the truth. Why do you think Oliver North was convicted of lying to congress?Where were you during these times?
    Please, prove me wrong, if I am.
    The RNC convention was only 2 years ago, and I read pages of accounts of abuse and illegal detentions. Yes , Clinton had a bad land deal for a whopping $100,000 or so, and then had an affair with a consenting adult. Bad but not treasonous.
    The Bush2 admin. has held fake press conferences(Ari Fleischer announcing that the Clinton staff ripped copper wiring out of the WhiteHouse and causing $200,00 worth of damage), outed a covert CIA operative(treason!!) for what end? Political gain, why else. Why did Cheney invite the Taliban to Texas in August of 2001? Why did they insist there were WMD? Why has there been an exodus of senior intelligence officials leaving in protest? Why can’t we see our fallen soldiers’ caskets return home in dignity? Why was the Pentagon hit with a U.S. cruise missle on 9/11, and we were told it was a plane?(there was NO plane wreckage at the site, and the only video shows no airplane crashing either.)

    Do us all a favor, dig these stories up, root out the truth, follow the lines of money, power and influence, let us know what you find.
    HappyHalloween!

  • TuiMel: …and among many with experience in interrogation comes down on the side that torture – setting aside the morality of it for the moment –

    Great response, TuiMel. But I gotta say this is the one aspect of the torture debate we should never be willing to set aside. Leaving the debate up to statistics opens the door sets the stage for manipulation of the facts supporting/contradicting whether it is effective in obtaining useful information.

    The opposition has shown a propensity toward not only distorting the facts, but outright fabricating them. If we drop the morality argument, we lose.

  • JTK, You get no argument from me regarding the importance of the moral grounds for opposing torture. It trumps the other aspects of the agrument in my mind. Torture is wrong; it harms all who are a party to it. IMO, anyone who is willing to countenance torture as a policy has – by definition – somehow gotten around the moral question in his/her mind. So, I was attempting to address the notion that the US has abandoned its principles in favor of “techniques” that many credible people report to be ineffective.

  • Al B, et al,

    I think in summary to the whole Military Commissions Act, and the fear it has put into each of you, I would offer this reminder. This law applies to alien unlawful enemy combatants. Alien being described as Non American citizens with no immigration status. I think the Enemy combatant being described as “not excluding” American citizens has driven the most fear into everyone? But, recall in the Act, the ONLY individuals denied habeas rights are resident aliens within the US and foreign nationals captured here and abroad. Alien being the key word.

    Enemy combatants captured outside of the US have never had habeas corpus rights so nothing has changed. The law of war allows the US to remove captured enemies from the battlefield and detain them for as long as the fight is waged.

    Any US citizen detained retains habeas rights and the ability to challenge their detention, just as they can today. As for the rights and freedoms many US citizens feel have been taken, this act takes away nothing more than we’ve already lost.

    And I’ve got to say Al B, I’m still wondering what in the world this comment means?
    ********************
    Why was the Pentagon hit with a U.S. cruise missle on 9/11, and we were told it was a plane?(there was NO plane wreckage at the site, and the only video shows no airplane crashing either.)
    ********************
    Tell that to Ted Olson’s wife and others who were on that plane that evidently just mysteriously disappeared in your eyes…..Oh wait, it was a White House cover up to secretly kill Mrs. Olson and several others on board and it went down in the Burmuda triangle…..C’mon.

    As for the trust element of our government, many of you are asking me whether or not I would trust other presidents with these same powers you so fear. My answer is yes, but then again, I don’t feel any president of this great country is looking for ways to pick up normal, everyday, citizens, hold them without reason, torture them, and never bring them to trial for political reasons. Obviously, none of you would trust those from the far left anymore than you trust this administration either, right? Afterall, it is government you indeed distrust, not this administration, right? Masking your hatred for this administration by claiming you wouldn’t trust any party in charge is truly hard to believe. I’m sure you were blogging every bit as strong during Non-Republican led administrations as well, or maybe not, as I’ve forgotten it’s only the right who has severely endangered this country, acted in treasonous ways, and encourages murder all in the name of political gain.

    For sure, each and everyone one of you are very well versed in many of these discussions, that can not be denied, it’s just unfortunate your distrust and hatred have lead you to follow only one side of all these arguments.

    In closing, I would submit to you I am a supporter of Bush, although not a diehard, support the reasons for the Iraq war, think Rummy has totally botched it, Cheney has too many “outside” interests, and in general, our foreign policy for as long as I can remember has been “tolerable”, at best.

    Maybe in the afterlife, assuming you believe in it, we will all enjoy a cold beer and see who was right, in the meantime, while you tirelessly look for ways to build your case against this evil empire, I’m going to enjoy a walk in downtown Detroit with my kids and wait for the World Series to start……….

    I enjoyed it.

    -Sidwinder (the missile)

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