About that term-limits pledge…

Stop me if you’ve heard this one. A Republican lawmaker tells voters, a few years back, that he loves [tag]term limits[/tag] and wants to make Congress a “[tag]citizen legislature[/tag]” that will somehow return political power “to the people” by having less-experienced officials serving them in public office.

Said lawmaker gets elected and realizes that lawmakers actually learn things while serving their constituents and can represent their communities more effectively with some seniority. It turn, the official decides to break the old promise and run for re-election beyond the arbitrary, self-imposed limit.

Sound familiar? I’ve lost count of how many times this has happened, but we can now add Rep. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) to the list.

[tag]Jeff Flake[/tag] pledged during his first campaign for Congress in 2000 that if elected, he would serve three two-year terms. But the Arizona Republican is running again to keep his seat in the House of Representatives.

“It was a mistake to limit my own terms,” says Flake, a conservative who has challenged Republican leaders on federal spending. He says the once-fashionable movement to limit terms in Congress has “just petered out.”

Flake is one of at least seven House Republicans who had vowed to leave Congress next year but will be on the ballot in November. They ran as citizen legislators — antidotes for “career politicians.” But after six or 12 years on Capitol Hill, they say they’re just getting the hang of the job. None faces serious opposition because redistricting has protected incumbents.

Flake noted the 32-year career of Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Ill.), who is retiring this year. “The institutional memory and that kind of consistency has been a huge plus,” Flake says. “But for every Henry Hyde, there are four or five members who have stayed beyond their effective phase.”

Right. The problem is the “bad” career politicians; not the “good” ones. That’s a helpful standard.

Just to be clear, I don’t necessarily blame Flake for going back on his word. Term limits, to me, are a foolish gimmick that seeks to address a problem that doesn’t actually exist. It’s short-sighted pseudo-populism. We already have term limits in every way that matters — they’re called elections. When voters decide someone has had too many terms, they pick someone else.

I do, however, blame Flake and his colleagues who are following a similar pattern for making the silly promise in the first place. Did it not occur to these guys that maybe, just maybe, they’d learn something on the job? That they could serve their districts better after generating some seniority?

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the notion that term limits can not be effective.

A vast majority of people in this country simply don’t pay enough attention to what’s going on to make truly informed decisions on whom to elect (assuming they bother to vote at all). Instead, they go with a name they know, rather than someone who could bring fresh ideas to Capitol Hill.

Because of this, you have career politicians who worry more about getting re-elected than doing what’s best for the constituents specifically, and the entire nation in general.

Granted, there is some truth that consistency and “institutional memory” are helpful, but in the long run I honestly don’t believe that to be so. Sorry, but if it takes someone 12 years to figure out how to do his or her job, then maybe that person should look for another line of work.

My suggestion is to cap it at that 12 year point. After all, we limit the President to two terms, why shouldn’t we hold Congress to a somewhat similar standard?

  • After all, we limit the President to two terms, why shouldn’t we hold Congress to a somewhat similar standard?”

    Of course there is the filp side of that statement…

    After all, we don’t limit Congress to any arbitrary number of terms and instead let the electorate decide when they’re no longer effective, why shouldn’t we hold the President to a similar standard.

  • Moses, they tried that in California. You know what the result is?

    Lobbyists run the capitol, because *they* have the institutional memory and the contacts — no term limits for them.

    And to whom are they accountable? That’s right. Whoever pays them.

    So term limits? Pretty much suck.

  • Im not sure that arbitrarily telling an effective “good” politician that they’ve reached their limit and aren’t allowed to help any longer will fix the problem.

    As you mentioned:

    “A vast majority of people in this country simply don’t pay enough attention to what’s going on to make truly informed decisions on whom to elect (assuming they bother to vote at all). Instead, they go with a name they know, rather than someone who could bring fresh ideas to Capitol Hill.”

    Which means that once a qualified, effective, good representative reaches their limit, they are likely to be replaced with someone with name recognition rather than someone equally adept.

    Arbitrarily kicking politicians out of office after “X” number of terms does absolutely nothing to increase the likelyhood that someone better will take their place.

    “Sorry, but if it takes someone 12 years to figure out how to do his or her job, then maybe that person should look for another line of work”

    That assuems that the “job” is exactly the same every year. It shouldn’t take a person 12 years to figure out how to do their job in the mailroom at a corporation, but it will take a lot longer than that for them to work their way up through the company until they reach a position where their influence can make a real difference in how the company is run.

  • Still, it’s pure gold for anyone running against Flake… “So, you were for term limits before you were against them?”

    And let me guess… this “critic” of spending has voted for every Bush budget. Do I need to check?

  • Hey … I never said my plan was perfect. Nor am I married to the idea. As everyone has pointed out, there are definite flaws in the term limit idea.

    But SOMETHING has to be done. If not term limits, then what? Publicly funded elections? A true, loophole-free limit on campaign spending? In what ways can we limit career politicians and their sense of entitlement? How we can keep them honest, especially when more Americans can tell you who won the last American Idol than can name their Senator?

    Seriously … I’d love to hear some suggestions.

  • “Seriously … I’d love to hear some suggestions.”

    You know, I had a cousin who was going to write a book on the issue of an “informed electorate” (or the lack thereof). I’m not sure how far he ever got. Maybe I’ll give him a call sometime and ask.

  • The problem isn’t term limits. It’s how Congress is run and the infrastructure that allows corruption and behind-the-scenes wheeling and dealing. And gerrymandering. Term limits is an irrelevant answer to the real problem. Structural change is needed, or else we’re going to be in a continual cycle of reform, corruption, “reform,” corruption, “reform,”…

    Mark my words. If the Democrats destroy the Republicans in the midterms, the whole infrastructure of corruption will come down on their pretty heads and make them–in 10 years time–every bit as awful as our current Republican legislature. And term limits won’t change a thing.

  • I’m pretty sure he keeps up with the discussions at TCR so he might be calling me before I get a chance to call him. Who knows, maybe he’ll contact you directly.

  • I’m pretty sure he keeps up with the discussions at TCR…

    You know, Danny, pretty soon people might pick up on the fact that you and I really are cousins!

  • Nah, I was being real careful so nobody could figure that out. Of course now that you’ve blown my cover, I’m going to have to come up with a new name to use in my comments. It’ll have to be something that will be obvious to anybody that knows me, but that will hide my identity from anyone who doesn’t. I’ve got an idea…

  • Of course since you are in charge here at TCR, I guess you haven’t really “blown my cover”. I mean anything you say is unclassified, is. So it’s impossible for you to “leak” information.

    Hmmmm, where have I heard that before.

    😉

  • Once again, CB, yo uhave made the mistake many in the “reality-based community” have:

    “Did it not occur to these guys that maybe, just maybe, they’d learn something on the job? That they could serve their districts better after generating some seniority?”

    Just because it’s a non-furry biped is not proof that it has a brain. These guys didn’t think of any of that because they’re Republicans.

  • Term limits are a good idea on paper, but California is an example of why they won’t work. It’s all about institutional memory. The legislators just keep getting dumber and dumber, and I’m talking about Democrats too. The problem is that every time we get a thoughtful and progressive member, she or he is term limited out. John Vasconselles is a good example of a great politicain who is now gone. There are many more. I think if someone is doing a good job, they ought to be able to stay on the job. People voted for the idea, but it is interesting that people often vote to limit their own voice.

  • CB (and several others here) have it correct: The problem is the “bad” career politicians; not the “good” ones.

    I think the Founding Fathers knew human nature pretty well, and where they went wrong (e.g., Southern slavery, the hillbilly-favoring Electoral College) it was usually at least a compromise among well-reasoned positions. I’m sure if there were a compelling reason to adopt term limits, they would have. It’s that elementary.

  • My gut feeling on term limits during the early ’90’s was that Republican’s were pushing them as a way to knock the Democratic hold on Congress loose. Note that shortly after the Republicans gained control of Congress the issue fell off the radar screen. The Washington Post put together a list of some articles and resources on term limits in 1999. You can find them here and here.

    BTW, I think a good example of the failure of term limits is the 2000 presidential race. Clinton likely would have run and won a third term if limits weren’t in place. Who amongst you believes that we would not have been better off today if that happened?

  • Okay, okay … I’m man enough to admit when I’m wrong. Hell, I’ve been wrong several times in the past hour (just ask my wife).

    Thanks to everyone for pointing out some outstanding points that I never considered.

    But I do have a question based on a comment from Mr. Flibble:

    It’s how Congress is run and the infrastructure that allows corruption and behind-the-scenes wheeling and dealing. And gerrymandering. Term limits is an irrelevant answer to the real problem. Structural change is needed, or else we’re going to be in a continual cycle of reform, corruption, “reform,” corruption, “reform,”…

    It seems to me that having the same people in office for decades leads to the crumbling infrastructure, does it not? After all, it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

    If term limits are not the real solution due to the myriad of problems they create, then what is? How does one convince people who are happy with the status quo — mainly because they benefit from it — to change?

  • Guys,
    I’m not sure that the distinction between “bad” and “good” politicians is a worthwhile distinction. “Bad” politicians don’t get elected or retained, it may surprise you to know. We call politicians “bad” because they don’t represent our interests. But “bad” politicians must represent someone’s interest to get elected or reelected, usually somebody rich and powerful.

    And so, back to my earlier point. They are almost all bought. Harry Reid is bought, and so is Biden, Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi, and everybody else. They have to be, if they want to be elected. So being bought does not mean that they are evil, but it does mean that whatever interest has paid the most will be closest to their ear. And sometimes these interests will make them “bad” politicians. This is why I suspect many Democrats refuse to unite to crush the Republicans, or to show any real leadership. Their corporate masters don’t want them to.

    Thus the problem: the infrastructure of governance within Congress. And why I think the Democrats will be GOP, v2 ten years from now if they win the midterms and the GOP disintegrates. It’s inevitable.

  • Sorry Unholy, I was composing another post when you were posting yours & we got crossed.

    This is a complex question, and some matters may be intractable. We can’t get rid of lobbyists for example, because for Congress to work there needs to be advocacy groups. But I do have just a few thoughts on problems that do need to be solved…

    First, and foremost, Congress (whether individually or collectively) should not be allowed to vote on matters that touch upon their self-interest. This includes issues relating to redistricting, pay raises, any legislation whatever.

    Second, there has to be some way to enforce transparency.

    Third, the true power of Congress lies in the hands of a few party and committee leaders. This power should be decentralized and returned to the members of Congress.

    The trouble is that the way Congress is now is the result of long-term processes. Members gave up power to chairs and leaders, and created a coercive structure that forces party discipline–even when it requires them to vote on laws they know are bad for most Americans. In fact, the coercive structure is there for that reason–no one will vote no on a good law. And members of Congress are all bought, as I noted above, so the current system may be perfectly suited to Congress’ true purpose now. And I can go on. But my point is that there is no easy solution to Congress’s problems, and term limits is probably less useful than most. And I think history has shown that to be true, as others have pointed out.

  • “Okay, okay … I’m man enough to admit when I’m wrong.”

    Actually I’ve always been for term limits, just not for the reasons you put forth. So I’m not certain that you’re wrong, just that the reasoning supporting your view needs some work. Most of the stuff I posted in response was stuff I’d heard from others when I’ve tried to argue FOR term limits, so I’ve been where you are.

    I certainly understand where CB is coming from. We don’t elect our representatives for life. We elect them for a short period of time (a “term”) and then we hold elections again. In order to continue to represent us, they have to win the election again. If enough of us feel we are not being properly represented, then they won’t represent us any longer. In a perfect world this would work very well.

    Unfortunately, we have ample proof that this isn’t a perfect world and that encumbent representatives have a significant advantage in getting re-elected which often allows them to do so even if they aren’t doing a very good job of representing their constituents. Candidates who would easily lose an election if they weren’t the encumbent, frequently win because they are.

    If there were a good way to remove the intrinsic advantage that encumbents have, then I’d agree that term limits are useless. Since I haven’t been able to come up with a good way to remove that advantage, and since I haven’t heard any good ideas from anyone else, I figure that the alternative is removing the ability of encumbents to run for office (i.e. term limits).

    Unfortunately, this has the unfortunate affect of removing a candidate who is representing his/her constituents well, and who has gained some knowledge and experience that would otherwise have been useful in continuing to represent them well. Perhaps the solution to that dilemma is to allow newly elected representatives to bring on ex-representatives as staff?

  • Hmm, “Unfortunately, this has the unfortunate affect” seems a bit redundant, and sounds a bit awkward. Strike that from your mind and replace it with:

    “This has the undesired side effect”

    It will make me seem a bit more eloquent and I’ll sound more intelligent. That way you might be more likely to accept my argument.

    Thanks

  • If there were a good way to remove the intrinsic advantage that encumbents have, then I’d agree that term limits are useless.

    The two advantages I see them having are name recognition and money.

    As Flibble pointed out, it’s the money it takes to get elected that’s a big part of the problem. Needing millions to get a seat in Congress has made it so “normal” folks can’t get elected. Of course, when you look at the earliest politicians in this country, that’s kinda always been the case — while it’s theoretically a system where anyone can run and serve, in reality it’s those with money or connections who usually do so.

    This then goes into the realm of campaign finance reform, whether or not publically funded elections are viable, etc. etc. etc.

    On a side note, I would like to say that I have found this whole discussion outstanding! Learned a lot, and helped me see a few things from a different perspective.

  • Comments are closed.