Americans support withdrawal from Iraq, don’t they?

The latest WaPo/ABC poll included some unexpected results.

A new Washington Post-ABC News poll finds the country split down the middle between those backing Sen. Barack Obama’s 16-month timeline for withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq and those agreeing with Sen. John McCain’s position that events, not timetables, should dictate when forces come home. […]

On Iraq policy in general, Americans continue to side with Obama and McCain, his Republican rival, in roughly equal numbers, with 47 percent of those polled saying they trust McCain more to handle the war, and 45 percent having more faith in Obama. […]

Americans are divided on which candidate has a plan for success in the region. Exactly half of those polled said they backed Obama’s plan to withdraw most U.S. forces from Iraq within 16 months of taking office. But 49 percent sided with McCain’s position of opposing a specific timetable and letting events dictate when troops should be withdrawn. Among independents, who will be the key voting bloc in November, 53 percent oppose Obama’s timeline.

That’s not quite the expected breakdown, given other recent national polling on Iraq. Americans disapprove of the war, they disapprove of Bush’s handling of the war, they believe the war shouldn’t have been fought, they believe the human and financial costs haven’t been worth it, but asked about withdrawal, they’re split right down the middle?

Less than a month ago, CNN fielded a national poll on Iraq and found that Americans, by a huge margin, want the next president to “remove most U.S. troops in Iraq within a few months of taking office.” A Pew Research Center poll, from around the same time, found that Americans prioritize bringing the troops home “as soon as possible,” rather than waiting for Iraq to be “stabilized.” Quinnipiac found that more than two-thirds of the country want the troops withdrawn immediately or within a year.

So, what gives? The problem may have something to do with the wording of the question: “Obama has proposed a timetable to withdraw most U.S. forces from Iraq within 16 months of his taking office. McCain has opposed a specific timetable and said events should dictate when troops are withdrawn. Which approach do you prefer – a timetable or no timetable?”

I think there are a few problems with the question. First, by attaching candidates’ names to the competing policies, partisans are more likely to be swayed. We’d get a better sense of what Americans actually prefer in terms of policy if the question left McCain’s and Obama’s names out of it.

Second, by including language in the question that McCain wants “events [to] dictate when troops are withdrawn,” the poll seems to be poisoning the well a bit. Participants aren’t told that Obama has said he wants to consider facts on the ground when deciding the tactics of his withdrawal strategy, that Iraqi officials have expressed support for a withdrawal timeline, and that McCain’s approach is entirely open-ended. In other words, the summaries of the candidates’ policies are incomplete.

What’s more, as Yglesias argued, the wording of the question also characterizes McCain’s position as the “moderate” one.

The implication here is that McCain is hewing to some kind of agnostic middle ground about troop departures, letting the schedule be dictated by events. In fact, what McCain is hewing to is the goal of a permanent military presence in Iraq, and thus a military and political strategy in Iraq geared toward making a permanent presence possible. Given that such a presence is broadly unpopular in Iraq, and also a specific source of inter-factional tension and also a large incentive for Iran to play a destructive rather than constructive role in Iraq, it’s a strategic objective that makes stability and substantial troop withdrawals essentially impossible for the foreseeable future.

The idea of a 16 month timetable sounds a bit arbitrary because it is a bit arbitrary — why not 15 months or 17 months? But a certain level of arbitrariness is inherent in the idea of setting a fixed schedule. And a fixed schedule for withdrawal is the only context in which it’s possible for US forces to accomplish something constructive during the remaining time, will let us reallocate resources away from this wasteful war, and with some luck will actually reduce the level of internal tensions in Iraq. There’s no choice between setting a timetable and taking a “wait and see” attitude, there’s a choice between putting down a marker (in the real world, more likely negotiated with the Iraqi government than inside a presidential campaign staff) of where the exits lie, and a costly and pointless open-ended engagement.

I think we’ll probably need quite a bit more data before coming to the conclusion that Americans are suddenly skeptical about a withdrawal policy.

This sure looks like more of the “both are centrists” nonsense. One has committed himself to removing the troops from Iraq and the other has committed himself to doing whatever his handlers tell him to do. That is a real difference not reflected by the question. How can anyone believe a poll that includes a McCain misstatement?

  • If you ask, “should we prepare to withdraw from Iraq, or for an indefinite occupation”, I think the results would be different. McCain has been trying, quite successfully, to muddy the waters and make his position appear to be indistinguishable from Obama’s, which is why it is so vital to hammer home what McCain’s position is: indefinite occuption which, under McCain’s rosiest scenario, ends sometime in 2013.

  • CB: That’s not quite the expected breakdown, given other recent national polling on Iraq. Americans disapprove of the war, they disapprove of Bush’s handling of the war, they believe the war shouldn’t have been fought, they believe the human and financial costs haven’t been worth it, but asked about withdrawal, they’re split right down the middle thinking no-bid contracts and loadsa cheap oil.? Fixed.

  • Were respondents given the option of saying no one ‘has a plan for success in the region’? Are we talking about the existence of plans for success or the existence of plans that could plausibly be successsful. Does McCains nul-plan constitute a plan?

  • Americans disapprove of the war, they disapprove of Bush’s handling of the war…

    ‘Opposition to the war’ includes those who are opposed to the war, but also those who ‘want the gloves to come off’, who think Bush’s pursuit of the war isn’t bloody enough. Some of them are doubtless McCain voters. Vote for McCain, and you get Iraq, but without Bush — that’s an attractive proposition for a lot of people.

  • This is a no brainer. Orderly redeployment vs 100 year occupation.

    Obama wants the troops out. It may take 16 months, 17 months, etc.

    McCain does not want to leave Iraq.

    The permanent occupation of Iraq and the middle east is a neo-con dream that McCain believes in. McCain’s foreign policy thinking rooted in the 19th century. This dude seriously believes that world has returned to the politics of 1914 and the Kaiser is gonna get uswe don’t get him first.

  • I think this post is pretty much right on the money. Poorly worded polling questions on both sides of every issue are probably a top-3 problem in American politics today. I think you go a little too far when you start to talk about “the question should be this, or they should have included this quote, etc.”. I do not have any specific quotes, nor will I try to make an accounting of who has done it more because frankly I don’t have the time or the data, but we all know that both candidates and their campaigns have made statements that contradict themselves (McCain on DREAM and offshore oil; Obama on FISA and gun control). The question should simply be “Do you support a firm timetable for troop withdrawl from Iraq, or should events dictate the exit strategy?”. BTW, Obama’s edge in overall popularity should, if anything, sway the poll toward his position, but the opposite seems to have happened here. Just a terrible poll. Question for the commenters: Was Barack’s speech today a statement of what his policy will be regardless of what he learns while in Iraq? Or was he talking about the position that he is starting from but may be open to changing after talking with commanders and Iraqi leaders?

  • This is just another bogus attempt at manipulation to confuse the general public mind by a major media conglomerate. The vast majority of the people want out of Iraq and the wording of the poll is a deliberate attempt to muddy that very clear purpose. It won’t work, the forces of desperation working against it are too strong to be stopped at this point, but it’s still really annoying.

  • What this poll shows is that we’ve allowed McCain to reposition the narrative.

    70% oppose the Death Tax. 60% are for an Estate Tax.

  • If you can’t dazzle em with brilliance, baffle em with bullsh*t.

    it’s axiomatic. Most Americans are undereducated when it comes to Democracy.

  • Sounds like more donuts with sprinkles. f***ing media whores.

    And really, the Iraqi leadership has said that they want a deadline. Is McCain going to bomb bomb bomb them until they get with the program?

  • Everyone tries to reposition the narrative. The winner of every debate is the one who frames it best, rarely (if ever) the one with the best point. Think about school district property tax levies: the districts always campaign as “Vote YES for kids!” even though 80% of operating levy money goes to existing teachers’ salary and benefits, not educational curriculum, equipment, or more teachers. That’s how you win a debate on this scale, because not enough people can or ever will pay attention close enough for long enough to figure out the real best solution.

  • The problem with letting events dictate the coarse of action is if the “surge” is working and violence is reduced then we need to stay. If violence gets worse and soldiers are dying then we need to stay. Either way according to the Republicans we need to stay. That is not a plan for ending the war that is a plan for occupation.

  • The war in / occupation of Iraq has continued through inertia because Congressional Dems cannot muster the will to force a change in that inertia. I do not agree with John McCain on much these days, but I sadly agree that the reduction in US casualties from 2007 levels has been in favor of the Dubya Inertia. Judging strictly from my own personal experience, the sense of urgency has ebbed. The War as a subject of conversation has receded way into the background – eclipsed by the deaths of Tim Russert and Tony Snow. People are more worried about how much it costs to fill their plates and their gas tanks than they presently are about the war. Add to that the convenient dearth of coverage in the Corporate Media, and you have the perfect recipe for ambivalence about the necessity of beginning the process of withdrawal in January 09 or continued bumping along (burden borne by others) based upon “events on the ground.”

    All of that cynically said, I think there can be little doubt the question definitely influenced the outcome of the poll. But, the ground has been prepared by the constant drum beat that the surge has succeeded and the dialing down of the coverage of events in Iraq. Also, no one is doing the work (I am looking at you Obama campaign) to weave together the evidence that the foreign policy of John McCain and his Republican pals has been an absolute clusterf*ck. While McCain crows about supporting the troops, he stiff arms veterans. They do not deserve yet another bite at the apple(core). The Corporate Media is not going to tell this story unless Obama finds a way to make it impossible for them to continue to ignore.

  • How to stay in Iraq indefinitely:

    Step 1: Get elected president
    Step 2: Appoint a partisan general to run your Iraq operations
    Step 3: Inform congress that conditions on the ground dictate your next move
    Step 4: Send said general to congress to tell them conditions are bad(or good, doesn’t matter really)
    Step 5: Have said general say that a pullout will jeopardize progress
    Step 6: Tell congress after the above testimony that your hands are tied
    Step 7: Repeat as often as needed

  • PS: To be clear, I am extremely happy that US casualties are down. I do not, however, accept that this means our continued presence in Iraq is wise or justified. I do think casualty levels are part of what drives public mood and provides a proxy for judging the “success” of the “surge.”

  • CB, the day doesn’t pass without at least one post making the obvious point that the MSM is McCain’s base. Had it occured to you that perhaps the polling companies are also falling into line behind McCain? To have a credible chance of stealing a third election in a row, the polls MUST show a gap between the candidates within the margin of error. Just because you aren’t paranoid doesn’t mean the corporatists aren’t out to steal this election.

  • The latest, July 15, Quinnipiac poll reached the same result, Steve. Although it gave Obama a 50-41 lead, large numbers said the war was wrong, etc., the numbers on setting a timetable were quite different, 51-43 against. See http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1192

    It seemed odd to me, but it’s consistent with the WaPo/ABC findings. Not sure what to make of it.

    Here’s their question: “Regardless of how you intend to vote, what would you prefer the next president do about the war in Iraq – Begin immediately a withdrawal of American troops with a fixed date to have them all out within 18 months OR Keep troops in Iraq until the situation is more stable and then begin to withdraw them without a fixed date for full withdrawal?”

    That seems be subject to some but not all of your objections. I’d say it makes the positions closer than they really are by suggesting that under the second option, the withdrawal will still be relatively soon. But I’m not sure. Anyway, Obama isn’t switching his view, so it’s kind of irrelevant, except to emphasize that it may be important to make clear how open-ended the McCain committment to keeping troops in Iraq is.

  • It’s a false equivalence, surely? Obama has suggested a phased withdrawal while measuring its effect on “conditions on the ground.” Is that a timetable?

  • Because if they’d asked

    ““Obama has proposed a timetable to withdraw most U.S. forces from Iraq within 16 months of his taking office, in accordance with the views of the Iraqi Government. McCain has opposed the Iraqi Government’s call for a specific timetable and said the troops must remain in Iraq until victory has been achieved. Which approach do you prefer – a timetable or long term occupation?”

    They might not have got the answer they wanted. So they slanted the question to make Obama’s policy sound bad, and McCain’s policy sound less toxic, and that got them the 50/50 split they needed to help keep this election looking like a horserace.

  • Perhaps Americans are now at the point where our levels of entitlement are such that we no longer care about people from another country, or for that country at all; we simply want and need their oil at whatever cost.

    I recall a 15 year old telling me just prior to the war that we needed oil, our economy depended on it and we should do whatever it took to get it.

    Perhaps more people (those people who are now begrudginly payin $5.00 a gallon) have joined the At Whatever Cost mindset.

  • I don’t think it’s the wording at all. I saw another poll a few weeks ago that showed the public trusts McCain on Iraq more than Obama. It’s the same phenomenon we see in the general – Americans overwhelmingly repudiate Bush and want a change in direction, yet at the same time they’re split pretty evenly between Obama and McCain.

    It’s the same thing here, only worse. They hate the war, but trust McCain to handle it better. This is no fluke, no exercise in semantics or splitting hairs, and the worst thing we can do is comfort ourselves that it is. It’s a variation of condemning the messenger for the bad news.

    We need to understand that we’re in trouble in this election. I’m also concerned that as the election draws close, Americans will drift toward McCain the familiar, comfortable old shoe. We saw that in the Bush/Clinton campaign, where Clinton’s huge lead slowly dissipated. How often do we cry out for change in our daily lives, then shy away from it when the time comes?

  • I predict the polls will get more and more bizarre and the results will be more and more contradictory the closer we get to November. The MSM has its vested interest in a close horse race and one of these horses is going to require constant replenishment of bullshit to keep him going. (Ok, so it’s the older horse.)

  • MsJoanne #23 makes a good point, but I don’t think the public is yet aware of the oil bonanza looming in Iraq. Once they do, all bets are off. I’ve read that Iraq plans to increase production by 2 million barrels a day by 2013, which is more than twice what our piddling, reckless drill/drill/drilling could produce in no less than 15 or 20 years.

    I don’t think the American people will want us to get out once they realize how much oil is at stake. We need it. That’s a fact. Because we’re not doing a damn thing about alternative energy, and we don’t plan to get off our asses anytime soon.

  • MsJoanne

    You are exactly right. There is a huge dearth of respect for other cultures. The way a lot of the more conservative/hawkish people look at it is that those damn Iraqis our standing over our oil.

    This is also extremely pervasive in the military, but I think more of it has to do with maintaining a combat mentality. I’m pretty careful with my buddy who got back from Iraq in december in talking about this stuff because he views all of them as less than garbage that deserve to die. He has no qualms telling you that either.

    This is a big problem I feel that has pervaded Americans the country over. We’re Americans and therefore are better than you. But our Declaration of Independence states that ‘all men are created equal’. I don’t think until we embrace this measure in all that we do(immigration, foreign policy, etc) will we be able solve any problems, but rather only exacerbate them.

    Until we are all human beings in each others eyes, no suffering will be alleviated.

  • the “problem” with the polling is americans’ knee-jerk reluctance and aversion to “stepping back from a fight.”

    we got punked into this disaster, and although doing the sensible thing and withdrawing our troops would in fact do much to restore our self respect, people get really cranky when you ask them to admit they’ve been punked, duped, made the fool, humiliated. bitch-slapping the messenger is preferable to admitting they got punked in the first place.

    and besides, haven’t we been told all along that (a) “re-arguing” the rightness or wrongness of the invasion is “the past” and irrelevant and (b) things are a mess on the ground because it was not competently managed.

    if enough people accept (a) and (b), then it’s not a stretch for them to argue that “retreat” is not the answer, “better management” is the answer. especially when you combine that with an aversion to what would otherwise be an admission that the United States of America made a mistake.

    oh, the horror. think of the children!

  • “They hate the war, but trust McCain to handle it better”

    hark said this above. exactly, hark. it’s a “management problem,” not “an error” to be acknowledged or “corrected.”

  • My first reaction to the wording of the question was that, if one knew nothing else about the competing plans, one might think that Hon. Sen. McCain could possibly speed up the withdrawal. Aside from the fact that despite four years of asking, Senator McCain and the GOP cannot articulate any of the conditions that would define victory, the only hint that he’s given that he would even consider a withdrawal on any schedule is the prognostications about 2113, sans plan.

    I wish to add here, that I wish that the 20% of Iraqis who have been forced from their homes (half have left the country altogether), have not forgotten were those homes are. Any success that the Surge has had, must take into account the problem of these people returning to Iraq (or being permanently resettled). To date, Mr. McCain had not been asked about the role that this demographic shift has played in the success of his vaunted Surge, nor how, not that the Surge is past, he plans on dealing with repatriation.

  • “Sen. John McCain’s position that events, not timetables, should dictate when forces come home.”

    OK, mr. mccain. What events would you consider justify bringing the forces home? So far all I have heard is that some nebulous events are necessary for getting out. At first you said that we had to stay because violence was rising. Now you say we have to stay because violence is falling. Is it that your real criterion for leaving is when the last drop of oil is pumped out? Seeing that you are so much of a Bushie, I strongly suspect that is your criterion.

  • Irrespective of where each candidate supposedly stands on the issue of there being a timetable or not, both of them have essentially said the same thing in regards to the U.S. military maintaining a force in Iraq large enough to help prevent al Qaeda from mounting a significant comeback and as well to discourage the Iranians from becoming a more negative factor in the still fragile affairs of Iraq. In other words, to keep a force there sufficient enough to help maintain a stable Iraq. Sounds like McCain and Obama are both proposing what amounts to an open-ended policy on keeping our troops in Iraq as long as is deemed necessary. So where and what is the difference – with the exception of the stated emphasis?

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